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View Full Version : Should The Reds Be Major Players For RHP Jason Schimdt?



Krusty
09-22-2006, 06:54 PM
Yeah we have been burned in the past with the Eric Milton signing but Schimdt is one of the frontline pitchers available in free agency.

Now the ownership says it is committed to winning. And looking at the roster there isn't much to trade that will bring a significant return unless the Reds are going to entertain trade talks for Adam Dunn. Griffey will bring little in return unless the Reds can get salary relief. Jason LaRue would require the Reds adding cash to any deal. Encarncion appears to be off limits and Hatteberg, Aurilia, Freel and Ross don't have the greatest trade value either.

That brings back free agency? Should the Reds risk again acquiring a frontline pitcher to go with Harang and Arroyo?

EKURed
09-22-2006, 07:26 PM
Yes. Use the money from the TV deal, etc. to get a starter and a bat....and, oh yeah, mix in a closer too.

mth123
09-22-2006, 07:28 PM
I'd say the Reds that we're used to shouldn't invest as much in 1 guy as it would likely take.

If Cast is going to be a free spender and missing out on him won't limit other moves, then yes.

But likely, no!

Slyder
09-24-2006, 03:24 AM
Yeah we have been burned in the past with the Eric Milton signing but Schimdt is one of the frontline pitchers available in free agency.

Now the ownership says it is committed to winning. And looking at the roster there isn't much to trade that will bring a significant return unless the Reds are going to entertain trade talks for Adam Dunn. Griffey will bring little in return unless the Reds can get salary relief. Jason LaRue would require the Reds adding cash to any deal. Encarncion appears to be off limits and Hatteberg, Aurilia, Freel and Ross don't have the greatest trade value either.

That brings back free agency? Should the Reds risk again acquiring a frontline pitcher to go with Harang and Arroyo?


Comparing anyone to Eric Milton is comparing a new car to a piece of junk. Most people knew that Milton was a risky/moronic move made by a desperate O'Brien to try and show he was doing SOMETHING, that backfired. The market was set by a lot of stupid contracts for the "B-List" starters and Milton was the beneficiary of it. Schmidt wouldn't be anywhere near as risky and troublesome I don't think but you have to be somewhat crafty in the contract this time if we go for a truely big name starter.

We need someone else that can come in and take pressure off of Harang and Arroyo. IMO Schmidt would make the most sense of the ones on the market. Zito has Scott BorASS as an agent which drives his cost up some more, Mulder can't stay healthy, Buehrle has sucked this year too much for us to risk the big money. Schmidt maybe older but he's got the history of being dependable and probably won't get as much as Zito (who should probably get most of the attention from the Yanks and the like). I say offer him 2 yrs between 18 and 24 mil then 2 mutual option years at like 10 mil per wtih a mil buyout that either side could pay. It gives flexibility for both sides to be able to choose when to cut ties and this would likely be Schmidt's last huge contract and if he "gets old" we can buy out after 2 yrs and move on (by then probably Homer Bailey time).

mth123
09-24-2006, 05:45 AM
We need someone else that can come in and take pressure off of Harang and Arroyo. IMO Schmidt would make the most sense of the ones on the market. Zito has Scott BorASS as an agent which drives his cost up some more, Mulder can't stay healthy, Buehrle has sucked this year too much for us to risk the big money. Schmidt maybe older but he's got the history of being dependable and probably won't get as much as Zito (who should probably get most of the attention from the Yanks and the like). I say offer him 2 yrs between 18 and 24 mil then 2 mutual option years at like 10 mil per wtih a mil buyout that either side could pay. It gives flexibility for both sides to be able to choose when to cut ties and this would likely be Schmidt's last huge contract and if he "gets old" we can buy out after 2 yrs and move on (by then probably Homer Bailey time).

I agree that for the next two years, Schmidt is the best option of the free agent starting pitchers. Afterwards, a decline will likely begin. I disagree with the negotiating approach. I don't think Schmidt would even talk to Cincy on the phone for a 2 year $24 Million Offer. You may get him for that much annually if you offer 5 years. You may get his interest for 3 years at $16 to $17 Million each. Otherwise he has no reason to even have Cincinnati in his thoughts. It sucks to be a losing team.

If we could get him for the contract you propose, sign me up. If it takes what I think it will, I'd pass.

flyer85
09-24-2006, 06:18 AM
at his age he will be a huge injury risk

redsfanmia
09-24-2006, 08:45 AM
No thanks.

RedsManRick
09-24-2006, 11:01 AM
I would make him a reasonable offer, but wouldn't pursue him at the costs it would likely take to sign him. I imagine the Mets or Yanks will offer him 4/50 or something similar. I'd give him 3/30, but I don't think he's the "ace" we need and should wait until next year if we really want to pay for a #1 starter.

What we need more than an ace is just 5 competent starters and unfortunately, all we've got at the moment is 3 (if Milton is healthy).

Kc61
09-24-2006, 11:20 AM
I would make him a reasonable offer, but wouldn't pursue him at the costs it would likely take to sign him. I imagine the Mets or Yanks will offer him 4/50 or something similar. I'd give him 3/30, but I don't think he's the "ace" we need and should wait until next year if we really want to pay for a #1 starter.

What we need more than an ace is just 5 competent starters and unfortunately, all we've got at the moment is 3 (if Milton is healthy).

I don't see Schmidt as a good fit for the Reds. He will want a long term deal, he is old enough that such a deal is risky. A World Series contender will find him very attractive and be willing to take the risk. Don't see Reds taking that risk.

Reds need to add two starters from the outside and try to move Milton to a more favorable team/stadium. (Would let EZ try for the fifth spot.) Don't see Schmidt as realistic.

Krusty
09-24-2006, 11:48 AM
According to the Enquirer, speculation is the Reds payroll might be around 75 million next season. With the departure of arbitration eligibles Kearns and Lopez, there shouldn't be anyone on the payroll due for a big pay raise with the exception of RHP Aaron Harang.

If this scenario is true, expect GM Wayne Krivsky to be the second coming of Trader Jack McKeon at the Winter Meetings.

Degenerate39
09-24-2006, 12:02 PM
Personally I'd rather have Bartolo Colon

neal1017
09-24-2006, 01:22 PM
Anyone for Soriano?

EKURed
09-24-2006, 01:27 PM
Anyone for Soriano?

Absolutely 100% YES. There isn't a pitcher on the market that can provide on the mound what Soriano can provide at the plate. He is EXACTLY what the Reds' offense needs. Imagine what he could do at GABP. Wow!

fewfirstchoice
09-24-2006, 01:52 PM
Sign Soriano to play 2nd base

Trade Dunn to White Sox for Burlie

Start Freel in RF

Move Jr. to LF

Sign Pierre to play CF

THis should make the REds true contenders.
Have a rotation of Harang,Burlie,Arroyo,Loshe,and another FA type thats pretty solid.
HAve Pierre,Freel,and Jr. in the outfield solid D and a lead off hitter to boot.
With Soriano playing 2nd and Phillips at SS that soild as well.

Tradeing Dunn and Milton would open up room for Sorianos contract.Tradeing Dunn would bring on a soild pitcher,Signing Pierre to CF helps the D and gives the Reds a leadoff hitter.

Lineup look something like this:
Pierre CF
Freel RF
Soriano 2nd
EE 3rd
JR. LF
Phillips SS
Hatte 1b
Ross C

Now that would be solid and maybe in the Reds price range.

RedsManRick
09-24-2006, 02:05 PM
How much do you guys think Soriano is going to get this offseason after going 40-40? If he gets less than 15M per, I'll be surprised. My money is on a return to the Yankees playing LF, or perhaps even the Angels.

fearofpopvol1
09-24-2006, 02:09 PM
Sign Soriano to play 2nd base

Trade Dunn to White Sox for Burlie

Start Freel in RF

Move Jr. to LF

Sign Pierre to play CF

THis should make the REds true contenders.
Have a rotation of Harang,Burlie,Arroyo,Loshe,and another FA type thats pretty solid.
HAve Pierre,Freel,and Jr. in the outfield solid D and a lead off hitter to boot.
With Soriano playing 2nd and Phillips at SS that soild as well.

Tradeing Dunn and Milton would open up room for Sorianos contract.Tradeing Dunn would bring on a soild pitcher,Signing Pierre to CF helps the D and gives the Reds a leadoff hitter.

Lineup look something like this:
Pierre CF
Freel RF
Soriano 2nd
EE 3rd
JR. LF
Phillips SS
Hatte 1b
Ross C

Now that would be solid and maybe in the Reds price range.

I like the ideas here, but I don't see many (if any) of these scenarios to be very realistic. Where exactly do you plan to trade Milton to? I don't think it's going to be quite that easy. I seriously doubt that the losing Cubs are going to give up Pierre given his production. Not to mention, I don't think we have a serious shot at Soriano either. He's going to want too much money and we will get outbid.

blumj
09-24-2006, 02:20 PM
I've been wondering if Soriano could play CF or RF better than he does 2B. Not for any particular team necessarily, but for any number of teams that already have a LF, but don't want him at 2B, or already have a 2B, too. He's always seemed completely miscast as a 2B, from day 1.

mth123
09-24-2006, 02:30 PM
How much do you guys think Soriano is going to get this offseason after going 40-40? If he gets less than 15M per, I'll be surprised. My money is on a return to the Yankees playing LF, or perhaps even the Angels.

I think the Angels scenario is very likely. They need him more than anything. They have enough kids that they can unload a few contracts to pay for him (Adam Kennedy, Darin Erstad, Jeff Weaver all come off the books and ready replacements exist).

Its why I think any trade scenario with LA Angels is not very likely.
They have money to buy what they need.

Degenerate39
09-24-2006, 03:13 PM
If Soriano came to Cincy I think he'd be the first one to go 50-50

fewfirstchoice
09-24-2006, 08:01 PM
Pierre is a free agent,not up to the Cubs.

neal1017
09-24-2006, 09:18 PM
A large bat in his prime, well worth the investment. If we are going to dream lets dream big.

Highlifeman21
09-24-2006, 11:04 PM
Sign Soriano to play 2nd base

Trade Dunn to White Sox for Burlie

Start Freel in RF

Move Jr. to LF

Sign Pierre to play CF

THis should make the REds true contenders.
Have a rotation of Harang,Burlie,Arroyo,Loshe,and another FA type thats pretty solid.
HAve Pierre,Freel,and Jr. in the outfield solid D and a lead off hitter to boot.
With Soriano playing 2nd and Phillips at SS that soild as well.

Tradeing Dunn and Milton would open up room for Sorianos contract.Tradeing Dunn would bring on a soild pitcher,Signing Pierre to CF helps the D and gives the Reds a leadoff hitter.

Lineup look something like this:
Pierre CF
Freel RF
Soriano 2nd
EE 3rd
JR. LF
Phillips SS
Hatte 1b
Ross C

Now that would be solid and maybe in the Reds price range.

Dunn for Buehrle. No thanks. Buehrle has a career G/F ratio of 1.35, a K/BB ratio of 2.52 and has given up a career OPS of .730. Let's also not forget that he's given up 165 HR in his 7 year career. I don't think he's as elite as some might make him. He's very much so a bad fit for our ballpark.

Ryan Freel is not an everyday player. He's a utility player that should be in a platoon rotation with Griffey/Aurilia/Hatteberg. Please enlighten us why Freel should be an everyday player.

Junior should be moved. CF is no longer his home. I don't see Dunn moving to 1B, so Griffey to LF won't happen, so Griffey to RF seems to be the only other option. I'm ok with this. Let's see how the rest of us feel about that move.

Juan Pierre to play CF? This is the same career .728 OPS, .351 of which being OBP Juan Pierre? Juan Pierre averages pretty much a 1:1 BB/K, which is horrible for a leadoff hitter. His OBP is too BA driven. While Juan Pierre has plenty of speed, he's not the guy we want. We have the guy we want for CF. He goes by the name of Chris Denorfia. You might have heard of him....

Your suggested moves make the Reds far from a contender. IMO, they make us worse.

fewfirstchoice
09-24-2006, 11:51 PM
Enlighten you it seems you only have room for one in that ego filled mind of yours and it is for #1,yourself.I wish people would learn to just read these message boards as people throwing things out and not thinking that we are Wayne K or any GM.First off never mentioned moving Dunn to first(but if he could be moved it would help our "D") I suggested trading him.Which if the Reds want to be a true contender they should see what offers they can attract for the guy.Freel may not be a everyday player but give me Freel in the game 4-5 days a week and his "D" will win a couple ball games.Now Dino I can see him geting more time on the field but I think I would rather have Pierre in CF than DIno.Maybe we could Let Freel,DIno,and Pierre(if the Reds sign him)play some sort of rotation with Pierre playing almost everyday in CF and DIno and Freel Rotating at RF and one can fill in for Pierre on his off days.

IMO, you have no ideal what the Reds need.The only thing that I even semi agree with you on is that Dino may need alittle more playing time.Saying that adding a pitcher the caliber of Burlie and a bat such as Soriano,then a Cf that can go get um with the best in the game will make the Reds worse is just mind boggling.Have you watch the Reds at all this season to know what they need.Starting Pitching,Leadoff hitter,better "D" and a closer.Everything I stated takes care off those needs except the closer role.

Now saying this will the Reds beable to pull those guys off in the winter,probably not.But that is not the question.You stated those signings and trade would make the Reds a worse ball club.You can never make me believe that for a second.

The lineup is posted above in your post now tell me a weak spot in that order.The #1 hole as a base stealer who does work walks(maybe not as much as some may like but his bunt hits make up for his walk ratio)and play as good a "D" as you will see.#2 man Freel or Dino in RF both have speed(base running speed) with a little more power than Pierre and about the same walk ratio.#3 man Soriano,that enough to be said possible 50/50 man in GABP.#4 a young 3B who has grown leaps and bounds this season and will only grow more good power and a run producer.#5 Jr. in LF a future hall of famer who moving to s corner spot will help alot in those old legs,still can get you 30 homers and 100 RBI's when healthy.#6 Phillips at SS decent power,above average speed(good base runner) and a better than advertised run producer who plays great "D".#7 Hatte at 1B,decent average and power,solid "D" and a great club house man.#8 Ross C 260avg 19 hrs and 60 rbi's great for a C.

Now read this and tell me how it could make them any worse of a team than they are right now.I just cant see it and never will.Will these things happen probably not,but if they do watch out guys.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2006, 01:36 AM
Enlighten you it seems you only have room for one in that ego filled mind of yours and it is for #1,yourself.I wish people would learn to just read these message boards as people throwing things out and not thinking that we are Wayne K or any GM.First off never mentioned moving Dunn to first(but if he could be moved it would help our "D") I suggested trading him.Which if the Reds want to be a true contender they should see what offers they can attract for the guy.Freel may not be a everyday player but give me Freel in the game 4-5 days a week and his "D" will win a couple ball games.Now Dino I can see him geting more time on the field but I think I would rather have Pierre in CF than DIno.Maybe we could Let Freel,DIno,and Pierre(if the Reds sign him)play some sort of rotation with Pierre playing almost everyday in CF and DIno and Freel Rotating at RF and one can fill in for Pierre on his off days.

IMO, you have no ideal what the Reds need.The only thing that I even semi agree with you on is that Dino may need alittle more playing time.Saying that adding a pitcher the caliber of Burlie and a bat such as Soriano,then a Cf that can go get um with the best in the game will make the Reds worse is just mind boggling.Have you watch the Reds at all this season to know what they need.Starting Pitching,Leadoff hitter,better "D" and a closer.Everything I stated takes care off those needs except the closer role.

Now saying this will the Reds beable to pull those guys off in the winter,probably not.But that is not the question.You stated those signings and trade would make the Reds a worse ball club.You can never make me believe that for a second.

The lineup is posted above in your post now tell me a weak spot in that order.The #1 hole as a base stealer who does work walks(maybe not as much as some may like but his bunt hits make up for his walk ratio)and play as good a "D" as you will see.#2 man Freel or Dino in RF both have speed(base running speed) with a little more power than Pierre and about the same walk ratio.#3 man Soriano,that enough to be said possible 50/50 man in GABP.#4 a young 3B who has grown leaps and bounds this season and will only grow more good power and a run producer.#5 Jr. in LF a future hall of famer who moving to s corner spot will help alot in those old legs,still can get you 30 homers and 100 RBI's when healthy.#6 Phillips at SS decent power,above average speed(good base runner) and a better than advertised run producer who plays great "D".#7 Hatte at 1B,decent average and power,solid "D" and a great club house man.#8 Ross C 260avg 19 hrs and 60 rbi's great for a C.

Now read this and tell me how it could make them any worse of a team than they are right now.I just cant see it and never will.Will these things happen probably not,but if they do watch out guys.

Read your post. It was a little tough with the massive grammatical and spelling errors, but I think I somehow managed. So, let's respond...

As for your proposed lineup...

Pierre
Freel
Soriano
EE
JR
Phillips
Hatteberg
Ross

As I stated, Juan Pierre doesn't get on base as much as he should as a lead off man, and has a BA driven OBP. If you're replacing him over Griffey in CF, then you are enhancing your D, but you're sacrificing offensive production.

Ryan Freel is not an everyday player. His D won't offset the sacrifice we experience in offensive production by playing him everyday. Ryan Freel is a better option at lead off than Juan Pierre.

Soriano. He's the only thing close to replacing the offensive production we'd lose by trading Dunn for the highly overrated Mark Buehrle. I gave you reasons why Buehrle's overrated. Apparently you didn't like factual evidence, so you're gonna hide behind your anecdotal evidence that he improves our rotation, which I believe he does, but not at the sacrifice of Adam Dunn. Soriano is a great offensive talent, but there's nowhere you can put him on the diamond where he's good defensively. He's historically one of the worst defensive 2B to ever play the game, and his athleticism made up for him being lost in LF. Soriano is worse defensively than Adam Dunn, and you need to understand that. For everyone on this board that thinks Adam Dunn is bad defensively, Alfonso Soriano is hands down much much worse.

EE and JR. EE is a staple of our lineup. JR can stay in our lineup as long as he relocates to a corner OF spot, or 1B, neither of which I think we'll see with him wearing #3 on his back for the Reds. JR in CF is something we need to never see again, if we want to win. He's the worst defensive CF in the game right now, and he's a liability.

Phillips, Hatteberg, Ross. These 3 are fine. Phillips is a dish best served at SS. Let's hope that his late season audition there will transition to him being the everyday SS in 2007.

Based on the lineup you proposed, we marginally improve in the OF, and actually decline in the IF, thanks to Soriano. You've also put the power responsibility in 2 bats, EE and Soriano. You can't rely on JR as a legitimate power threat anymore, so now we lack a LHB power bat, and have 2 RHB power bats. Seems a little out of balance to me. Maybe not to you.

The fallacy of your suggestion lies in your hyperbole of Buehrle's abilities. He's not as good as you're making him out to be, therefore, our team is actually worse b/c of the loss of Adam Dunn. Not to mention that getting rid of Dunn's contract, as you stated, would be offset by Soriano's contract, which will be without a doubt bigger than Dunn's.

Heath
09-25-2006, 09:52 AM
These September call-ups are just fantastic.

Falls City Beer
09-25-2006, 10:13 AM
The Reds need to be major players for two or three starters (of varying skills), three bullpenners, and two bats.

Good luck.

Gary Redus
09-25-2006, 10:32 AM
FCB is correct ... this team needs a lot more than Jason Schmidt (although that is not a bad start). If we can acquire an "ace" then I favor trying to build a staff of decent to good starters (2's and 3's if you will). Got to add a couple of bats - at least one in the outfield. Defense has to be a real concern too. Seems like the only plus defender is Phillips. This will be an interesting off season. The Reds can position themselves to take the central next year but there is little margin for error.

fewfirstchoice
09-25-2006, 11:34 AM
I just dont understand ya kid,calling people out for making spelling errors on a message board.I just never really understood people who get onto other posters for misspelling a few words as they type a post.I mean this isnt the ten commandments or a report to the president,its a message board do you understand.But if you want to send copies of our degrees from places of higher education(college) to each other and see who has passed further througth the halls of education we can.Im about 99% sure I will have more of a college degree than yourself.So please spare me the remarks about not being able to spell and understand I type fast and never really spell check,so I along with most other posters get a couple words wrong.

Now for your remarks toward my post for a third(even on the other board in another thread,now thats shallow)time.I really have nothing to say except I have said my peace and am done with you and your ignorance on the topic.The moves I sated would help the team no matter your opinnion.Would they be the best moves the Reds could make.Probably not thats why Im not the GM,but I think they would help.

Anyone else who wants to discuss this in a civial matter please do so,21 has proved he cant do so.I cant imagine being a person who just downs someone and their ideals right from the get go.I can understand not agreeing with someone but you just do it wrong and disrespectfull in the ut most of ways,so thanks for the post appreciate it.

BoCcc2832
09-25-2006, 12:23 PM
No, no, no, no, no...you can't get Soriano because he's going to demand 10 million in his first year...we can't afford that...then no to Schmidt because if he were to start for the Reds, he would make his first start at 34 years old. By that time, you're on your way down (unless you're BALCO Bonds). He gets 10.5 mil already and again, we can't afford that...stop dreaming that we're going to get top notch players. One, we don't have the money. And two, we don't have the minor league system to trade those kind of players. What I want is for Wayne to find kids like he did this year who can contribute to the team and only cost us a few million dollars (Phillips, Arroyo, Ross)...stop looking for the big trade when we don't need it

Johnny Footstool
09-25-2006, 01:20 PM
The Reds are pretty much devoid of tradeable talent this offseason, thanks to Krivsky's Folly, so the free agent market is the best place to look for improvements.

Jason Schmidt would be a fantastic addition. So would Ted Lilly, at a much cheaper price.

I'd also like the Reds to make major efforts to sign Chad Bradford, Octavio Dotel, and especially Justin Speier for real bullpen help. Joe Borowski and even Kerry Wood would be interesting options for the bullpen, too, but I'd rather the Reds focus on the first group.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2006, 01:26 PM
The Reds are pretty much devoid of tradeable talent this offseason, thanks to Krivsky's Folly, so the free agent market is the best place to look for improvements.

Jason Schmidt would be a fantastic addition. So would Ted Lilly, at a much cheaper price.

I'd also like the Reds to make major efforts to sign Chad Bradford, Octavio Dotel, and especially Justin Speier for real bullpen help. Joe Borowski and even Kerry Wood would be interesting options for the bullpen, too, but I'd rather the Reds focus on the first group.

Do you think Dotel would be closer material for us, or should we go after G. Mota to fill that role? I really like the ideas of Bradford and Speier, but I'm afraid that might leave us with too much of a "specialist" bullpen, where we'd need 7 arms and we'd have guys only pitching to a batter or two in an inning. I'd also love to see us get Marte, but then he's only valuable vs. LHB, like Bradford's only good vs. RHB.

Schmidt scares me due to his age, and the money he might command, and I'm not familiar with the Pros and Cons of Ted Lilly, so if someone has those, I'd love to see if he is actually a good option for us.

joshnky
09-25-2006, 01:37 PM
I just dont understand ya kid,calling people out for making spelling errors on a message board.I just never really understood people who get onto other posters for misspelling a few words as they type a post.I mean this isnt the ten commandments or a report to the president,its a message board do you understand.But if you want to send copies of our degrees from places of higher education(college) to each other and see who has passed further througth the halls of education we can.Im about 99% sure I will have more of a college degree than yourself.So please spare me the remarks about not being able to spell and understand I type fast and never really spell check,so I along with most other posters get a couple words wrong.

Now for your remarks toward my post for a third(even on the other board in another thread,now thats shallow)time.I really have nothing to say except I have said my peace and am done with you and your ignorance on the topic.The moves I sated would help the team no matter your opinnion.Would they be the best moves the Reds could make.Probably not thats why Im not the GM,but I think they would help.

Anyone else who wants to discuss this in a civial matter please do so,21 has proved he cant do so.I cant imagine being a person who just downs someone and their ideals right from the get go.I can understand not agreeing with someone but you just do it wrong and disrespectfull in the ut most of ways,so thanks for the post appreciate it.

You've got some issues buddy. I thought his response to your post was fair and certainly not disrespectful. This is what happens when you throw out an idea on a message board. The spelling/grammar comment may have been out of line but it is difficult to read your posts and understand them.

Bottomline, I agree with Highlifeman and his analysis on this. We can't afford to give up big money or Dunn for overrated pitching.

fewfirstchoice
09-25-2006, 02:46 PM
Thanks for giving your 2 cents Josh,but if you cant understand my post why bother reading them beyond the point of misunderstanding.But I do respect yours and others oppinions on this board and cant wait to here more in the future.

If the Reds cant afford to pay big money this off season,well all I can say is next year is lost as well.I agree the Reds dont need to over spend on over rated pitching.When I threw Burles name out there it was just that a name.Some seem not to realize that but,I was just trying to put a name and a trade together that might work.I didnt mean go after Burle and make him the #1 pitching target.

Also Johnny I agree 100% with the bullpen help you suggest.Those guys would help the pen in a great way.I just dont think the Reds will bring in that many guys in the winter.I can see a closer and maybe another righty out of the pen and thats about all.Wayne will try and make Magic man and Bray stick to make his trade seem better.Then you have Cormier(spelling)who will be back.ALso the front office is working on bringing Weathers and Schonenwise(spelling) back.If that happens thats 5 guys already in the pen. The Reds will more than likely only carry 7 in the pen next season.

Johnny Footstool
09-25-2006, 06:25 PM
Do you think Dotel would be closer material for us, or should we go after G. Mota to fill that role? I really like the ideas of Bradford and Speier, but I'm afraid that might leave us with too much of a "specialist" bullpen, where we'd need 7 arms and we'd have guys only pitching to a batter or two in an inning. I'd also love to see us get Marte, but then he's only valuable vs. LHB, like Bradford's only good vs. RHB.

Schmidt scares me due to his age, and the money he might command, and I'm not familiar with the Pros and Cons of Ted Lilly, so if someone has those, I'd love to see if he is actually a good option for us.

Dotel would only sign if he could close, and I think he'd do a fine job in that role. I like him better than Mota.

Speier has actually been better vs. LH than RH for the past two seasons. For his career, he's fairly even, so he's not really a specialist like Bradford. He'd be a great setup man -- I think that's been his role in Toronto this season.

Ted Lilly is a lefty who strikes batters out. *Slight* flyball tendencies. His biggest problem has been consistency. I think a move to the NL would result in an Arroyo-style career turnaround.

Slyder
09-26-2006, 11:07 AM
I agree that for the next two years, Schmidt is the best option of the free agent starting pitchers. Afterwards, a decline will likely begin. I disagree with the negotiating approach. I don't think Schmidt would even talk to Cincy on the phone for a 2 year $24 Million Offer. You may get him for that much annually if you offer 5 years. You may get his interest for 3 years at $16 to $17 Million each. Otherwise he has no reason to even have Cincinnati in his thoughts. It sucks to be a losing team.

If we could get him for the contract you propose, sign me up. If it takes what I think it will, I'd pass.

A losing team? We were in the thick of the playoff race (even now we are only 3.5 back of St. Louis). We are far from where most expected us to be. I think marquee players would listen to Cincy because we were so close this year. Much like Schilling in Boston, Schmidt would have a chance to become a legend if he were to come here and get us back to the playoffs. Plus as good as Harang and Arroyo have been neither would likely be a challenge for big man in the rotation unlike teams like the saux and some of the other "playoff teams" that would probably be offering. Don't undervalue the power of media because ballplayers read the same newspapers as we do and I'm sure most realized just how well we did for so long.

Slyder
09-26-2006, 11:46 AM
I would make him a reasonable offer, but wouldn't pursue him at the costs it would likely take to sign him. I imagine the Mets or Yanks will offer him 4/50 or something similar. I'd give him 3/30, but I don't think he's the "ace" we need and should wait until next year if we really want to pay for a #1 starter.

What we need more than an ace is just 5 competent starters and unfortunately, all we've got at the moment is 3 (if Milton is healthy).

And then what happens (if we make the playoffs) and we are facing a staff like the Astros? I would like our chances 1000000000 times better with Schmidt, Arroyo, Harang and not letting Milton see the field PERIOD. As we've seen this year September and October baseball is about 1 thing and 1 thing only PITCHING. If you dont have it you don't get far. Schmidt would bring the experience (IMO) that this team lacked and it showed as the pressure mounted.

Just looking at the teams that were "in" the race:
ERA
1 Detroit 3.75 (Kenny Rogers 3.63, Justin Verlander 3.63, Nate Robertson 3.66, Jeremy Bonderman 4.11)
2 San Diego 3.88 (Chris Young 3.55, Clay Hensley 3.73, Woody Williams 3.53, Jake Peavy 4.13)
3 Minnesota 3.99 (Johan Santana 2.79, Francisco Lirano 2.16 (yes i know he's done for the year), Boof Bonzer 4.15)
4 Anaheim 4.02 (John Lackey 3.69, Kelvim Escobar 3.40, Jared Weaver 2.32, Joe Saunders 4.11)
5 Mets 4.10 (John Maine 3.64, Tom Glavine 3.94, Pedro 4.08)
6 Astros 4.14 (Roger Clemens 2.35, Roy Oswalt 3.07, Andy Pettitte 4.31, If healthy Brandon Back 3.77)
7 Oakland 4.16 (Barry Zito 3.89, Rich Harden 3.79 career 3.62 ERA, Danny Haren 4.11,
8 Dodgers 4.23 (Derek Lowe 3.57, Chad Billingsly 3.34, Brad Penny 4.21 career 4.04)

That right there is going to represent at least 5 of the playoff teams. In this day and age 5 competant starters is going to get you a bunch of Milton type starters and an era in the mid-high 4s (if your lucky). I would rather load up on the front 3 and then find a "servicable" 4 that can get you low 4 era and piece together a #5 cause you can expect your first 3 to carry you through the tough times. Plus early season ERam would be perfect for our #4.

In this age of baseball you need 2 good starters and 1 great starter to compete for the championships. No One has 5 competent starters any more. The closest thing we've seen of that is the Braves teams where it was Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz headlining. Harang and Arroyo have been good but they had stretches where they were really inconsistant. IMO Schmidt would likely do for this team what Bobby Abreu did for the Yanks at the deadline or Kenny Rogers for the Tigers and help instill a swagger that we were going to walk into any park and smack you in the teeth. There wouldn't be any series that a team could say "whew we got 3 good pitching matchups" because regardless of how it fell on the schedule you would be guarenteed at least 1 of our "big 3".

mth123
09-26-2006, 07:38 PM
A losing team?

1 game under .500 right now and would be further back except that they just won 3 of 4 against a team with Matt Murton batting clean-up. Haven't been over .500 in 5 years (maybe more I didn't bother to look this one up). Haven't been to the play-offs since 1995 or the World series since 1990. Has a reputation for a circus atmosphere that goes back to Marge and the scouting purge, the free reign of the dog, Pete Rose, Dave Pallone and Rose's other problems, Eric Davis being stranded in Oakland with a lacerated kidney, Racism, "Hitler was good" comments, 10 years of a snake oil salesman (that we call leatherpants) as GM who fired one manager over the phone, reneged on an offer to another and never delivered on his promises, to more modern problems like the chair scandal and a team Docter that seems to be more enamored with being a media star than keeping his players healthy.

Yeah, that's a winning franchise.

flyer85
09-26-2006, 07:43 PM
recent history shows signing free agent starters is a high risk/low reward proposition.

Falls City Beer
09-26-2006, 07:46 PM
recent history shows signing free agent starters is a high risk/low reward proposition.

If you're smart, and the pitcher's not too old, it doesn't have to be high risk/low reward.

flyer85
09-26-2006, 07:51 PM
If you're smart, and the pitcher's not too old, it doesn't have to be high risk/low reward.look at the class of 2004

Ortiz, Benson, Leiber, Milton, Clement, Perez, etc. The class of multi-year signings were busts.

If you've got to sign a vet FA starter I would stick to one year deals.

GM has to very selective about who to sign

Always Red
09-26-2006, 07:58 PM
If you've got tons of money to throw around, by all means, go and get Schmidt.

He certainly would help this staff; no question. But he's no better than Harang or Arroyo, will be a #3 on this staff (OK, maybe a #2 behind Arroyo, yet Harang has way more upside than Schmidt) and will cost twice the price of Milton.

I don't think that will go over to well with the faithful here at Redszone, getting a pitcher just a little better than Milty, but not as good as Harang and Arroyo.

I don't have anything against Schmidt; I think he'd be a good acquisition if you have the bucks to spend. I also know most Reds fans will expect 22-6, 2.50 ERA out of a pitcher who will get $12 million a year. And Schmidt has never done that, he's not about to start now!

reds44
09-26-2006, 08:03 PM
Pierre is a free agent,not up to the Cubs.
Alot of popel here don't like Pierre, but I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds get him.

Always Red
09-26-2006, 08:06 PM
Do you think Dotel would be closer material for us, or should we go after G. Mota to fill that role?
Lohse would be a good closer, I think.

He doesn't have the mental makeup of a starter, I think he's proven that again this year, in fact, year after year. He's got a live arm, and if he can wrap his brain around the idea of being a closer, I think he'd be a good one. Heck, at least as good as Dumpster. ;)

He has stated over and over though, that he wants to be a starter. Personally, I think he's got enough of an "edge" to him to be a good reliever, but that's a spot (closer) that you have to embrace and relish.

Patrick Bateman
09-26-2006, 08:57 PM
Soriano is worse defensively than Adam Dunn, and you need to understand that. For everyone on this board that thinks Adam Dunn is bad defensively, Alfonso Soriano is hands down much much worse.




I just came accross this article on PROTRADE's Moneyball valuation for fielding:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060926&content_id=1683041&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb


I'm not exactly sure on all the variables, but it seems to show that Soriano is actually a good fielding outfielder because of his range, while Dunn is terrible.