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TeamSelig
09-29-2006, 11:32 AM
For '06 MVP. Rich Aurilia is winning...

22 HRs 67 RBIs .346 OBP .510 SLG

I think I'd rather have

40 HRs 92 RBIs .366 OBP .493 SLG

redsmetz
09-29-2006, 11:40 AM
For '06 MVP. Rich Aurilia is winning...

22 HRs 67 RBIs .346 OBP .510 SLG

I think I'd rather have

40 HRs 92 RBIs .366 OBP .493 SLG

I'm assuming the second group of numbers are Adam Dunn's. Interesting to juxtapose them that way, if they are.

BRM
09-29-2006, 12:19 PM
I like Rich Aurilia. I really do. But team MVP? C'mon.

redsfan30
09-29-2006, 12:24 PM
Adam Dunn is not this teams most valuable player this year. I don't care what his numbers say, he's just not.

dougdirt
09-29-2006, 12:27 PM
I will take Bronson Arroyo please.

Chip R
09-29-2006, 12:34 PM
It's obvious who it should be.











:valentin:

pedro
09-29-2006, 12:34 PM
Arroyo is the Reds MVP. Hands down.

BRM
09-29-2006, 12:46 PM
It's obvious who it should be.











:valentin:

:laugh:

edabbs44
09-29-2006, 01:23 PM
For '06 MVP. Rich Aurilia is winning...

22 HRs 67 RBIs .346 OBP .510 SLG

I think I'd rather have

40 HRs 92 RBIs .366 OBP .493 SLG

Aurilia has shown up in the 2nd half. Dunn has not. But I would break it down like this:

1) Arroyo
2) Phillips
3) Aurilia
4) Harang
5) Clayton, b/c of his veteran presence :D

RedsManRick
09-29-2006, 02:25 PM
Adam Dunn is not this teams most valuable player this year. I don't care what his numbers say, he's just not.

I do care what the numbers say. And they say that at best Dunn is the #3 contributor behind Arroyo and Harang.

JEA
09-29-2006, 02:27 PM
Wow... Dunn isn't even close:

Aurilia: 32%
Arroyo: 29%
Dunn: 9%
Harang: 18%
Phillips: 12%

(One trip to the Reds.com messageboard gives you a pretty good glimpse of who's voting, though.)

Matt700wlw
09-29-2006, 03:51 PM
I say Arroyo/Harang Co-MVPs...without them, this team would be out of it by double-digits.

redsfan30
09-29-2006, 04:10 PM
I do care what the numbers say. And they say that at best Dunn is the #3 contributor behind Arroyo and Harang.

Most valuable players don't go into hibernation during the last two months of a playoff chase.

oneupper
09-29-2006, 05:18 PM
I say Arroyo/Harang Co-MVPs...without them, this team would be out of it by double-digits.

Second that.

GridironGrace
09-29-2006, 05:22 PM
I wanna say bronson without him we lost 10 more games atleast. HOWEVER

Aurilia was very sharp this season. exactly what we needed from him

Ross is the MVP with more playing time, and Harang won the most games for us... so my top 3

Bronson
Harang
Aurilia

RedsManRick
09-29-2006, 05:30 PM
Most valuable players don't go into hibernation during the last two months of a playoff chase.

Umm.. my point was that even looking at the numbers Dunn still isn't the MVP. I was agreeing with those saying Dunn isn't our MVP

However, re: the timeliness of his conributions, wins and losses in April count just the same as they do in September. Without homers in April, the games in September aren't part of a playoff race. It's his sub .900 OPS for the year that concerns me.

reds44
09-29-2006, 09:36 PM
After the joke of the final 2 months Dunn put up, I question your sanity if you think he is the team's MVP.

I'd go:

Arroyo
Harang
RA
Dunn
BP

guttle11
09-29-2006, 09:56 PM
Adam Dunn is not this teams most valuable player this year. I don't care what his numbers say, he's just not.

The numbers say it all. He was pretty good in the first half, and so was the team's record. After August 1st, he went away, and so did the wins.

So, IMO, he is the Reds MVP in every since of the word.

redsfan30
09-29-2006, 10:11 PM
Umm.. my point was that even looking at the numbers Dunn still isn't the MVP. I was agreeing with those saying Dunn isn't our MVP

My bad. I misunderstood what you were saying.

captainmorgan07
09-29-2006, 10:19 PM
I say Arroyo/Harang Co-MVPs...without them, this team would be out of it by double-digits.

i agree

Kc61
09-29-2006, 10:23 PM
For '06 MVP. Rich Aurilia is winning...

22 HRs 67 RBIs .346 OBP .510 SLG

I think I'd rather have

40 HRs 92 RBIs .366 OBP .493 SLG

Selective numbers. Let's analyze.

Dunn has almost 200 more plate appearances than RA. If you pro-rate RA's RBIs over the same number of plate appearances, he would have 94 and a fraction RBIs. More than Dunn.

RA has more hits than AD (1 more coming into tonight) in almost 200 fewer plate appearances. The result is a 64 point difference in batting average. RA's was (before tonight) .297. Adam's was .233.

Rich's hit rate (reflected in his BA) is higher than Dunn's. Adam's walk rate is higher than Rich's.

The two have virtually the same OPS (Adam was up .003 before tonight, RA might have gained tonight). Rich has the higher slugging percentage.

When you evaluate Adam's stats, a lot depends on your view of walks. Adam's OBP and OPS are heavily walk driven. Some people think that is great. Others don't.

Then there's defense. And I didn't mention the word "K".

So there's a lot to consider.

OldRightHander
09-29-2006, 11:32 PM
Womack didn't get any votes?

Cooper
09-29-2006, 11:42 PM
BA deserves the award. He's had a good year in a hitters park.

jimbo
09-29-2006, 11:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to take into consideration, when comparing Dunn and Aurilia, that most of the times when RA didn't play is because the matchup didn't favor him? It's kind of difficult to project RA's stats over the course of the season if he played those times because of that.

gonelong
09-30-2006, 12:00 AM
Selective numbers. Let's analyze.

Dunn has almost 200 more plate appearances than RA. If you pro-rate RA's RBIs over the same number of plate appearances, he would have 94 and a fraction RBIs. More than Dunn.


Rich has had a nice season, kudos to him for that.

However ...

If Rich got his 200 more PA it would be mostly against RH. Rich loses roughly .060 in BA, .080 in OBP%, .219 in SLG% and .297 in OPS from RH to LH. I'd put Rich's chances at getting 94 RBI in your scenario as very slim to none.

GL

GAC
09-30-2006, 09:08 AM
I will take Bronson Arroyo please.

Harang 16-11 NL lead in complete games (6) leads the NL in K's.

GAC
09-30-2006, 09:10 AM
After the joke of the final 2 months Dunn put up, I question your sanity if you think he is the team's MVP.

I'd go:

Arroyo
Harang
RA
Dunn
BP

[GAC falls out of chair that Encarnacion is not even on your list] :lol:

Cedric
09-30-2006, 10:56 AM
Arroyo
Harang
Aurilia
Phillips

Betterread
09-30-2006, 11:17 AM
My vote is for Arroyo as Reds MVP, with Harang 2nd, Dunn 3rd.

GAC
09-30-2006, 03:38 PM
What motivates people to nominate Arroyo over Harang?

Harang

• Ranks 4th in NL in W (16) • Ranks 1st in NL in IP (234.1)
• Ranks 1st in NL in SO (216) • Ranks 1st in NL in CG (6)

Arroyo

• Ranks 2nd in NL in IP (233.2) • Ranks 7th in NL in SO (181)
• Ranks 4th in NL in ERA (3.27) • Ranks 6th in NL in CG (3)

RedsBaron
10-01-2006, 07:54 AM
I would prefer to see Arroyo and Harang share the Reds MVP award. There really is not that much to choose between them.

oregonred
10-02-2006, 01:22 AM
Selective numbers. Let's analyze.

Dunn has almost 200 more plate appearances than RA. If you pro-rate RA's RBIs over the same number of plate appearances, he would have 94 and a fraction RBIs. More than Dunn.

RA has more hits than AD (1 more coming into tonight) in almost 200 fewer plate appearances. The result is a 64 point difference in batting average. RA's was (before tonight) .297. Adam's was .233.

Rich's hit rate (reflected in his BA) is higher than Dunn's. Adam's walk rate is higher than Rich's.

The two have virtually the same OPS (Adam was up .003 before tonight, RA might have gained tonight). Rich has the higher slugging percentage.

When you evaluate Adam's stats, a lot depends on your view of walks. Adam's OBP and OPS are heavily walk driven. Some people think that is great. Others don't.

Then there's defense. And I didn't mention the word "K".

So there's a lot to consider.

And at a cost of $2M vs. $10M :eek:

My Top 5 List with salary as a consideration
Arroyo
Harang
Aurillia
Phillips
Ross

excluding salary considerations, I'd say Dunn comes in 4th-5th.

Wheelhouse
10-02-2006, 01:31 AM
For '06 MVP. Rich Aurilia is winning...

22 HRs 67 RBIs .346 OBP .510 SLG

I think I'd rather have

40 HRs 92 RBIs .366 OBP .493 SLG

Of course don't compare the players' performance in the heat of the playoff race. Or their defensive performance. Or their Avg. w RISP.

I love the idea of Rich winning MVP as it would just ENFURIATE those who ceaselessly berated him, day-after-day, and at the same time, bewailed ANY criticism of Dunn's disastrous play. Vindication is sweet.

M2
10-02-2006, 02:19 AM
Arroyo and/or Harang. No point in even bringing a position player into the discussion.

BRM
10-02-2006, 09:35 AM
Womack didn't get any votes?

People are too blinded by production around these parts for Womack to get any love. If only Tony could have figured out how to steal first base...

NDRed
10-02-2006, 07:30 PM
compare the strikeouts

Highlifeman21
10-02-2006, 07:46 PM
Of course don't compare the players' performance in the heat of the playoff race. Or their defensive performance. Or their Avg. w RISP.

I love the idea of Rich winning MVP as it would just ENFURIATE those who ceaselessly berated him, day-after-day, and at the same time, bewailed ANY criticism of Dunn's disastrous play. Vindication is sweet.


And Aurilia is a role player who put up good numbers in the PA he saw.

Adam Dunn is an everyday player, the best player in our organization, and he's put up a historic 4 years that few have matched.

But keep beating the Rich Aurilia drum...

TC81190
10-02-2006, 07:55 PM
And Aurilia is a role player who put up good numbers in the PA he saw.

Adam Dunn is an everyday player, the best player in our organization, and he's put up a historic 4 years that few have matched.

But keep beating the Rich Aurilia drum...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

pedro
10-02-2006, 08:00 PM
And at a cost of $2M vs. $10M :eek:

My Top 5 List with salary as a consideration
Arroyo
Harang
Aurillia
Phillips
Ross

excluding salary considerations, I'd say Dunn comes in 4th-5th.


not to pick nits, but dunn made 7.5 mil this year.

Patrick Bateman
10-02-2006, 08:00 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Care to elaborate, or just the smilies?

GAC
10-02-2006, 08:46 PM
And Aurilia is a role player who put up good numbers in the PA he saw.

Adam Dunn is an everyday player, the best player in our organization, and he's put up a historic 4 years that few have matched.

But keep beating the Rich Aurilia drum...

No one is denying that. Though a role player doesn't play in 122 games/season. What does that make Griffey? ;)

But the poll is for 2006 performance, and not on what he did over the last 3-4 years. His "dive" the last two months, regardless of what his overall numbers were, would put him 4th for me.

TC81190
10-02-2006, 08:48 PM
Care to elaborate, or just the smilies?

Sure. That was an absolutely ridiculous statement, seeing as Dunn (A) isn't the best player in our organization and (B) his past 4 seasons are nothing historic at all (unless you count a record 190+ K season).

Patrick Bateman
10-02-2006, 09:08 PM
Sure. That was an absolutely ridiculous statement, seeing as Dunn (A) isn't the best player in our organization and (B) his past 4 seasons are nothing historic at all (unless you count a record 190+ K season).

Part A is questionable. Based on this season Harang and Arroyo were probably better, but over the last 4 seasons Dunn has easily been the organization's best player.

Part B I think Highlifeman was talking about within the Reds organization. He has had a good 4 year run that few have matched. Far from the best, but 4 pretty darned good years. And seriously, many, many people have shown that the K stat has little to do with run production. Obviously, Dunn Ks a lot, but he does two important things: gets on base a lot and hits for a lot of power. This has been a down year for Dunn, but his hitting assets far outweigh his flaws.

RedFanAlways1966
10-02-2006, 09:28 PM
(B) his past 4 seasons are nothing historic at all (unless you count a record 190+ K season).

Should we count 100 runs scored along with 100 RBIs in a single season (TWICE... 2004 & 2005)? How many times has that been done by someone in a REDS uniform?

:confused:

Highlifeman21
10-03-2006, 04:17 AM
Sure. That was an absolutely ridiculous statement, seeing as Dunn (A) isn't the best player in our organization and (B) his past 4 seasons are nothing historic at all (unless you count a record 190+ K season).

My mistake, 3 years. 2004, 2005, 2006.

In those 3 years, he's played 481 games, hit 126 HR, walked 334 times, batted in 295. Care to tell me other players in baseball in a 3 year clip that have put up those kind of numbers? I know you hate Adam Dunn as much as I hate Jerry Narron, but Dunn is our best position player. Sure, there's an argument for Harang and possibly Arroyo for best overall player, but Dunn is hands down our best position player, which is what I asserted when I just used the word "player".

I'm amazed at the fact that fans don't see greatness before their eyes when they see Adam Dunn. We're all witness to an emerging talent in the Queen City, but few of us have the patience to let him fully develop and continue to put together a HOF caliber body of work. I guess we should just trade him and watch him punch his HOF ticket in a different uniform.

Bottomline, Dunn produces runs. His run production far far outweighs any outs he creates via the strikeout.

jimbo
10-03-2006, 11:54 AM
Bottomline, Dunn produces runs. His run production far far outweighs any outs he creates via the strikeout.

I can't agree more with this statement. I think most Dunn haters grossly fail to recognize the fact that Dunn will score a lot of runs and how big that is. For as bad of a month Dunn had in September, something which many remind us of on a daily basis here, guess who led the team in runs scored during that time? Dunn!

I get as frustrated as anyone with Dunn's strikeouts, but I'll continue to overlook them because in the end I know he will still produce a lot of runs, and the last time I checked runs play a big part in who wins a baseball game.

TC81190
10-03-2006, 04:14 PM
My mistake, 3 years. 2004, 2005, 2006.

In those 3 years, he's played 481 games, hit 126 HR, walked 334 times, batted in 295. Care to tell me other players in baseball in a 3 year clip that have put up those kind of numbers? I know you hate Adam Dunn as much as I hate Jerry Narron, but Dunn is our best position player. Sure, there's an argument for Harang and possibly Arroyo for best overall player, but Dunn is hands down our best position player, which is what I asserted when I just used the word "player".

I'm amazed at the fact that fans don't see greatness before their eyes when they see Adam Dunn. We're all witness to an emerging talent in the Queen City, but few of us have the patience to let him fully develop and continue to put together a HOF caliber body of work. I guess we should just trade him and watch him punch his HOF ticket in a different uniform.

Bottomline, Dunn produces runs. His run production far far outweighs any outs he creates via the strikeout.


I don't hate Adam Dunn, I hope every year he has would be 2004. But he isn't our best position player. I'd have to hand that title to a one Edwin Encarnacion.

Betterread
10-03-2006, 06:25 PM
See below.

Betterread
10-03-2006, 06:27 PM
My mistake, 3 years. 2004, 2005, 2006.

In those 3 years, he's played 481 games, hit 126 HR, walked 334 times, batted in 295. Care to tell me other players in baseball in a 3 year clip that have put up those kind of numbers? I know you hate Adam Dunn as much as I hate Jerry Narron, but Dunn is our best position player. Sure, there's an argument for Harang and possibly Arroyo for best overall player, but Dunn is hands down our best position player, which is what I asserted when I just used the word "player".

I'm amazed at the fact that fans don't see greatness before their eyes when they see Adam Dunn. We're all witness to an emerging talent in the Queen City, but few of us have the patience to let him fully develop and continue to put together a HOF caliber body of work. I guess we should just trade him and watch him punch his HOF ticket in a different uniform.

Bottomline, Dunn produces runs. His run production far far outweighs any outs he creates via the strikeout.

You chide people for forgetting greatness - yet you neglect one of top players of the last two decades. If you want to use previous years' performance - then it should be obvious which player embodies greatness: Ken Griffey Junior. Dunn's one great year is a pale shadow of Griffey's 7 top years - OPS' over 1.000 and the lowest OPS of those years was .943. By contrast Dunn's best OPS is .957. These statistics also don't take fielding into account, which category KGJ dominates compared to DUnn.

Highlifeman21
10-03-2006, 06:35 PM
You chide people for forgetting greatness - yet you neglect one of top players of the last two decades. If you want to use previous years' performance - then it should be obvious which player embodies greatness: Ken Griffey Junior. Dunn's one great year is a pale shadow of Griffey's 7 top years - OPS' over 1.000 and the lowest OPS of those years was .943. By contrast Dunn's best OPS is .957. These statistics also don't take fielding into account, which category KGJ dominates compared to DUnn.

I would debate at great lengths that KGJ is defensively superior to Adam Dunn. Cyclone's done some phenomenal work on how defensively horrible, and actually how much a liability KGJ is to the Reds in CF.

I never mentioned KGJ what he did 2000 and prior, so I'm not chiding people for forgetting greatness, but rather I'm chiding people for throwing Adam Dunn under the bus for a good, but down year (for him). Even in the great years from 1990 to 2000, KGJ didn't put together 3 consecutive years of 100 R/40 HR/100 BB as Adam Dunn has done the past 3 seasons. Am I comparing Adam Dunn to KGJ? Definitely not, and I never even made the connection. You did.

All my points up to this post have been in defense of Adam Dunn vs. Rich Aurilia. Adam Dunn's been more valuable to the Reds than Rich Aurilia, and heck, even KGJ while they've all shared a Reds uniform. Anyone care to debate that statement?