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View Full Version : Dusty going out in ablaze of glory



flyer85
09-29-2006, 05:26 PM
... in a meaningless game 2 days from the end of the season he allows Zambrano to throw 128 pitches.

Joseph
09-29-2006, 06:01 PM
Good for Dusty. :)

vaticanplum
09-29-2006, 06:07 PM
Way to show 'em, Dusty. Do the thing for which you've been most criticized because that sure as heck won't have ramifications for the team you're leaving behind. I'm sure Zambrano will thank you in a couple of years.

REDREAD
09-29-2006, 06:32 PM
:lol:

I feel bad for Zambrano, but this is a funny thread.

Topcat
09-29-2006, 07:24 PM
Truly speaks volumes about Dusty for any future employer of him in regards to baseball don't you think?

jimbo
09-29-2006, 07:27 PM
Zambrano is in the running for the Cy Young, I'm sure that had something to do with keeping him out there that long.

Jr's Boy
09-29-2006, 07:45 PM
You tell em Dusty,don't let them tell you how to prolong a starting pitcher in the major leagues.By the way Livan Hernandez says hello.

vaticanplum
09-29-2006, 08:00 PM
Zambrano is in the running for the Cy Young, I'm sure that had something to do with keeping him out there that long.

Oh, I have no doubt that had a whole lot to do with it. That doesn't make it any less stupid in my opinion.

KronoRed
09-29-2006, 08:07 PM
Poor Dusty, if his pitchers could just throw 200 effective pitches per start he wouldn't be getting fired.

redsmetz
09-29-2006, 09:00 PM
I continue to wonder about pitch counts and all that. I just looked at Gibson's stats and he had about seven seasons where he had over 20 complete games, pitching; nine seasons with over 250 innings (including two over 300). That's a lot of pitching. It may be wrong, but I think there's a school of thought that guys can be stretching it out more with the right training. Didn't somebody mention Maloney pitching 16 innings in 1964?

WMR
09-29-2006, 09:04 PM
Dusty is an idiot.

Whichever GM next gives him a job managing a MLB team should be whacked upside their head.

EDIT: That being said, I do think the Cubs should give the guy one more season to 'turn things around.'

jimbo
09-29-2006, 09:20 PM
Boy, you guys are brutal. Here's a guy pitching for the Cy Young, you have to give him every opportunity to get him as many quality innings you can and the chance for a win in his last start. Zambrano missed two starts a few weeks ago so it isn't like he's been abused this month. A Cy Young can be a big bargaining chip for a pitcher when it comes to his next contract.

Outshined_One
09-29-2006, 11:05 PM
I continue to wonder about pitch counts and all that. I just looked at Gibson's stats and he had about seven seasons where he had over 20 complete games, pitching; nine seasons with over 250 innings (including two over 300). That's a lot of pitching. It may be wrong, but I think there's a school of thought that guys can be stretching it out more with the right training. Didn't somebody mention Maloney pitching 16 innings in 1964?

A couple of things have changed since then.

One of the major changes that happened in 1969 was the lowering of the pitcher's mound. Pitchers had less of a downward plane to work with, so the angles of their pitches were changed in favor of the hitter. Their pitches became easier to hit, which led to an increase in offensive production.

Another major change that has happened over the years is the contraction of the strike zone, especially with the enforcement of the rules through QuesTec. The umpires were given less subjectivity in calling strikes, so their zones gradually became smaller and smaller. Various other factors have contributed to this tightening, but the fact remains that it's much harder to get borderline pitches called strikes today than it was even 10 years ago.

Finally, MLB gradually stepped up enforcement of inside pitches and HBPs. Pitchers who once were able to throw inside on hitters at will suddenly found themselves in hot water when they hit guys, be it accidental or not. This gave hitters more freedom in crowding the plate (see: Bonds, Biggio, etc) since they knew pitchers were more likely to throw pitches on the outer half of the plate. Taking away that part of the plate really restricted pitchers.

The bottom line isn't necessarily that pitchers are not as healthy or that the current era of baseball coddles pitchers way more than they used to (although, you can make some good arguments on those points). What it boils down to is the fact that pitchers are throwing a lot more pitches per inning than they used to. Bob Gibson may have thrown over 304 IP in 1968, but he in all likelihood threw less pitches in doing so than a number of pitchers do in a season today.

vaticanplum
09-29-2006, 11:26 PM
Boy, you guys are brutal. Here's a guy pitching for the Cy Young, you have to give him every opportunity to get him as many quality innings you can and the chance for a win in his last start. Zambrano missed two starts a few weeks ago so it isn't like he's been abused this month. A Cy Young can be a big bargaining chip for a pitcher when it comes to his next contract.

He was hurt but a few weeks ago, back problems, he was not supposed to pitch until the Thursday after the Reds were in Chicago and yet he pitched that Sunday game against Cincinnati -- ostensibly for the same Cy Young-based reason. I think that merits worry, or at least caution.

Ravenlord
09-29-2006, 11:26 PM
A couple of things have changed since then.

One of the major changes that happened in 1969 was the lowering of the pitcher's mound. Pitchers had less of a downward plane to work with, so the angles of their pitches were changed in favor of the hitter. Their pitches became easier to hit, which led to an increase in offensive production.

Another major change that has happened over the years is the contraction of the strike zone, especially with the enforcement of the rules through QuesTec. The umpires were given less subjectivity in calling strikes, so their zones gradually became smaller and smaller. Various other factors have contributed to this tightening, but the fact remains that it's much harder to get borderline pitches called strikes today than it was even 10 years ago.

Finally, MLB gradually stepped up enforcement of inside pitches and HBPs. Pitchers who once were able to throw inside on hitters at will suddenly found themselves in hot water when they hit guys, be it accidental or not. This gave hitters more freedom in crowding the plate (see: Bonds, Biggio, etc) since they knew pitchers were more likely to throw pitches on the outer half of the plate. Taking away that part of the plate really restricted pitchers.

The bottom line isn't necessarily that pitchers are not as healthy or that the current era of baseball coddles pitchers way more than they used to (although, you can make some good arguments on those points). What it boils down to is the fact that pitchers are throwing a lot more pitches per inning than they used to. Bob Gibson may have thrown over 304 IP in 1968, but he in all likelihood threw less pitches in doing so than a number of pitchers do in a season today.
very good points.

also walks are a lot more emphasized then they were even 20 years ago, and as a result more hitters are sitting back waiting on their pitch.

Falls City Beer
09-29-2006, 11:56 PM
very good points.

also walks are a lot more emphasized then they were even 20 years ago, and as a result more hitters are sitting back waiting on their pitch.

I'd say excellent points. This ain't 1968. I don't imagine we'll go back that way again, either.

redsmetz
09-30-2006, 12:11 AM
very good points.

also walks are a lot more emphasized then they were even 20 years ago, and as a result more hitters are sitting back waiting on their pitch.

I agree, these are very good points. Hence the discussion we had some weeks ago about raising the mound. Doubt that will happen too.

jimbo
09-30-2006, 12:19 AM
He was hurt but a few weeks ago, back problems, he was not supposed to pitch until the Thursday after the Reds were in Chicago and yet he pitched that Sunday game against Cincinnati -- ostensibly for the same Cy Young-based reason. I think that merits worry, or at least caution.

That's a valid concern, but I'm sure it's now mainly up to Zambrano and how much he wants to pursue it. The Cubs have nothing to play for but he does. If he came out and said the Cy Young award means nothing to him, the Cubs may have shut him down after that injury or limited his innings, but it obviously means a lot to him (he's mentioned just that in the media) so he should be given the chance to go for it. I see no purpose in bashing Baker for permitting him a high pitch count, I think it would be pretty unfair to limit him actually unless he's asked for it.

Chip R
09-30-2006, 12:28 AM
Dusty is an idiot.

Whichever GM next gives him a job managing a MLB team should be whacked upside their head.

EDIT: That being said, I do think the Cubs should give the guy one more season to 'turn things around.'

He'll get another job somewhere. Maybe D.C. if Bob Boone or Davey Johnson don't get the gig. Maybe TEX but they have a lot of young players on that team. Big Dust likes young players about as much as Narron does.

Cooper
09-30-2006, 12:38 AM
Walks ain't no big thing to Dusty --read today that his team finished with the 5th worse walk differential of all time.
He says on offense they clog up the bases, thus not allowing the faster runners to take off and go full tilt.

I hope the Cubs give him a 3 year contract.

Wheelhouse
09-30-2006, 08:28 AM
Zambrano is in the running for the Cy Young, I'm sure that had something to do with keeping him out there that long.

Agreed. It's a tight race that could come down to a 1-win difference or leading the league in IP.

RedsBaron
09-30-2006, 08:50 AM
I hope the Cubs give him a 3 year contract.

I wish Dusty could be cloned and he and his clones could manage the Cubs, Cardinals, Astros, Brewers and Pirates.;)

Chip R
09-30-2006, 09:31 AM
I wish Dusty could be cloned and he and his clones could manage the Cubs, Cardinals, Astros, Brewers and Pirates.;)


Actually he has been cloned. Unfortunately, his clone has been managing the Reds for the past year and a half.