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TeamBoone
09-30-2006, 11:11 AM
9-30-2006


Griffey: Center still best for me
By Marc Lancaster / Post staff reporter

PITTSBURGH - If Ken Griffey Jr. is to move from center field to one of the corner outfield spots, he would prefer to do it on his own terms.

"I think when I feel that I can't play that position, then I will be able to go into the office and tell them," he said Friday. "If I feel that I'm hurting the team being out there, then I'll do that. But I don't think that I'm hurting this team at all being at the position where I'm at."

It's understandable that Griffey would be reluctant to vacate a position he once defined, winning 10 consecutive Gold Gloves from 1990-99, but he knows the chatter about whether he should do so probably has reached an all-time high.

Griffey's range isn't what it once was, but he insists it doesn't need to be for him to do his job well. He says his ever-expanding knowledge of opposing players and his studies of their skills and tendencies allow him to position himself far better than he did in his more fleet-footed youth, and that makes a significant difference.

"I mean, if they go out and get Carl Lewis to play the outfield, that's a different story," he said with a smile. "But we don't have that type of runner."

Well, there is Ryan Freel, but most around the team are wary of plugging the utilityman into a single, everyday job. Particularly one as grueling as center field, where the potential would exist for Freel to wear himself out more quickly than normal.

During the two stretches this season that Freel served as the regular center fielder, April 13-May 10 and Sept. 5-20, he hit just .194 (25-for-129) with seven extra-base hits while striking out 30 times.

Barring the acquisition of a clearly superior defensive center fielder in the offseason, Griffey plans to be back where he always has been come spring training. Of course, he also expects more of himself next season.

"I sometimes felt a little tired during parts of the season," he admitted.

Part of the blame for that can be doled out to an unusual winter. After undergoing a pair of surgeries last September, Griffey wasn't fully recovered until December, and before he knew it he had to be ramped up to game speed a couple of weeks earlier than usual to play in the World Baseball Classic.

Griffey excelled in that March event, but struggled to remain consistent at the plate once the season began. His run-production numbers are solid, with 27 homers and 72 RBIs in 109 games, but his .252 batting average is a disappointment.

He's looking forward to a more conditioning-oriented workout regimen this offseason, under the watchful eye of Reds strength coach Matt Krause. The two live about 30 minutes apart in the Orlando area and get together often during the winter.

"We're going to go back to some things that I was able to do when I was playing in Seattle," said Griffey. "(Like) being able to ride my bike a couple times a week, where the last couple years it was weight, weight, weight - everything was 'get stronger.' Now, it's trying to get the endurance up without taking all the pounding. We'll still do some weightlifting, but not as much."

That approach may help Griffey regain a step or two in the outfield. Either way, Griffey pledged to evaluate himself honestly. Looking at it as objectively as he can, he does not believe his presence in center field is detrimental to the team.

"I don't think it's at that point," he said. "We'll see how I feel at the beginning of the season and if I'm playing well. If not, we'll discuss it."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060930/SPT05/609300389/1027

westofyou
09-30-2006, 11:15 AM
Griffey: Center still best for me

Griffey's range isn't what it once was, but he insists it doesn't need to be for him to do his job well.

Well insist away if you must, but the writing's on the wall.

OnBaseMachine
09-30-2006, 11:16 AM
The Reds are in a world of trouble if Griffey is still in CF next year.

Falls City Beer
09-30-2006, 11:20 AM
The Reds are in a world of trouble if Griffey is still in CF next year.

There are a disturbingly high number of things that look to remain the same for the Reds next year.

Tom Servo
09-30-2006, 11:22 AM
:explode:

I love ya Junior, but you need to move to one of the corners.

TOBTTReds
09-30-2006, 11:22 AM
During the two stretches this season that Freel served as the regular center fielder, April 13-May 10 and Sept. 5-20, he hit just .194 (25-for-129) with seven extra-base hits while striking out 30 times.

Freel doesn't get tired though...ever.

Seriously though, this is going to turn into a running joke if he continues to think he is what he was. Richie thinks he is a SS, and Jr. thinks he is a CF. Two TERRIBLE ranges at the two most important "range needed" positions. That is AWFUL and inexcusable that we have run lineups like that out there.

mth123
09-30-2006, 11:24 AM
Ugh!!

I still believe that the Kearns trade involved making RF available for JR and I believe the switch was to be made right after the deal. Not sure it would have made that deal look any better but at least it would have looked more logical.

This is one of the primary reasons I had been on the Hunter/Cameron bandwagon as opposed to Deno. I think if the Reds brought in a top CF with an existing reputation then Griffey would be more willing.

This is horrible news for 2007.

Red Leader
09-30-2006, 11:37 AM
This is one of the things I will be evaluating Krivsky on this winter.

If he DOESN'T go out and get a player that can play CF, his grade will drop two slots for me (from an 'A' to a 'C') no matter his other aquisitions.

That's what Krivsky needs to do. He needs to realize that Ken Griffey Jr is not going to change positions himself. He needs to realize that Ken Griffey Jr being in CF hurts this teams defense tremendously. He then needs to find a replacement and force Griffey to move. It's a tougher situation than many here think. He's basically has to directly go against what the "star player" wants. Being a GM is a tough job, but this is one thing that Krivsky has to step up on, face any criticisms he runs up again, and make the move.

And FWIW, I do think Krivsky has to go outside the organization for a CFer. Denorfia and Freel are not options, IMO. Freel should remain in his super-sub role and Denorfia should be given a chance to compete for another OF position. If Griffey moves to RF, Denorfia moves to LF and Dunn moves to 1B. Hatteberg then becomes a backup. If Griffey goes to LF, Denorfia stays in RF and Dunn goes to 1B and Hatterberg becomes a backup. Either way, I believe Adam Dunn should also be "forced" into moving postions as well. If he doesn't like it, hey, you aren't far from free agency, big guy. Does Krivsky have the guts to make these moves? I'm not sure. I'll be very interested to find out, though.

MartyFan
09-30-2006, 11:47 AM
Junior may not be what he was when he was in Seattle and frankly it is a miracle the guy is even on the field...the one thing you have to give the guy is that when he came up he was such a natural in the position...then on top of that he hit well too...there has never been a time in his life when he wasn't heads and shoulders above anyone else who played against him...since the injuriesthat hasn't been the case and with him being on the field he probably has the intestinal fortitude to want to prove something before he goes away...the game owes him that.

There are worse options in CF than Junior.

Imagine a top performing pro athelete coming to terms with the radical change that Junior has had to endure over the last several years.

I can't imagine anybody who performs at that level would just simply "move" after the injuries he has sustained...more than proveing it to anyone else he has something to prove to himself...if he has a great year next year look for him to move on from then.

I have heard motivational speakers and leadership experts talking about change who believe it is important when you make a radical change that you make it on a "plus"...when things are going your way because it keeps your options open and puts the past to rest...I think that is what Junior is doing.

Falls City Beer
09-30-2006, 11:49 AM
There are worse options in CF than Junior.



Yeah, me.

(Sorry, it really was too easy.)

Will M
09-30-2006, 11:52 AM
BC, WK & Narron need to TELL Griffey he is moving to LF.

If he won't go then they can suspend him without pay.

This is exactly what happened to Soriano this spring, after 1 day he went to LF

westofyou
09-30-2006, 11:52 AM
Imagine a top performing pro athelete coming to terms with the radical change that Junior has had to endure over the last several years.

Imagine an outfield anchored by a 38 year old CF, then imagine hits falling all year, then imagine another losing or .500 season.

Griffey needs to imagine himself at a corner position and he needs someone to send him a tape of the 1973 World Series.

reds44
09-30-2006, 11:55 AM
no.

RedsManRick
09-30-2006, 12:11 PM
Hi Junior. I'd like you to meet this guy Chris. He was named the best defensive OF in AAA this year.... now go to RF and deal with it.

VR
09-30-2006, 12:16 PM
It is nice to hear the concept of conditioning over weight lifting. It's downright frightening that weights have been the only offseason approach since he's been in Cincy.

That said, if they can remove the 12 inches of gravy and soft cheese from centerfield, he might do ok next year.

oneupper
09-30-2006, 12:41 PM
Hi Junior. I'd like you to meet this guy Chris. He was named the best defensive OF in AAA this year.... now go to RF and deal with it.

You probably want to send Jr to LF instead of RF. But that would mean someone else has to move.

According to the polls here, over 50% of REDZONERs think that Dunn will be traded.

JR/Deno/Freel in '07?

mth123
09-30-2006, 12:46 PM
There are worse options in CF than Junior.

Imagine a top performing pro athelete coming to terms with the radical change that Junior has had to endure over the last several years.

I can't imagine anybody who performs at that level would just simply "move" after the injuries he has sustained...more than proveing it to anyone else he has something to prove to himself...if he has a great year next year look for him to move on from then.

I disagree about the worse options part. I guess Hatteberg or Valentin would be worse but JR is not a Major League caliber CF anymore.

I do think you are on to something with your talk about change. I do not think Griffey will simply just move, because he still views himself as what he once was. Many on this board are very young and probably can't relate, but those of us who remember Crosley Field probably know what its like to realize that you can't do what you once could. You are usually the last to know and don't admit it willingly.

This can not simply be "you'll play RF because I say you'll play RF." Griffey has to realize it to avoid a huge issue. The Reds reputation is already less than stellar and it cripples them in negotiations with players. Even if the Reds are right if they want Griffey to move (and they would be), the way this is handled will have big implications. I remember when the BRM broke up. I remember the Reds balking when Bench said he wanted to play 3B (and rightfully so). After just letting Rose, Morgan and Perez go, the perception was "now they're messing with Johnny Bench." The Reds can not afford to be seen as "messing with Griffey." They have to get him to move willingly. Oh and those who want to trade the problem, he's 10-5 so he can't be traded w/o his permission. Even if the Reds eat the whole contract he may not go if the team he is going to won't play him in CF. They have to make him realize its time.

pedro
09-30-2006, 12:53 PM
Barring an acquisition I think Denofria should be in CF next year. I would much rather give him the chance than than go get someone like Torii Hunter as many hear have suggested.

Either way KG has no business being the CF for this team or any other.

Red Leader
09-30-2006, 01:15 PM
Barring an acquisition I think Denofria should be in CF next year. I would much rather give him the chance than than go get someone like Torii Hunter as many hear have suggested.



Count me in the crowd as not seeing Torii Hunter as a solution to the problem as well.

WMR
09-30-2006, 01:29 PM
Ahhhh Griffey... if this decision IS left up to you next year... Krivsky is a dummy.

redsupport
09-30-2006, 01:50 PM
what a selfish solipsistic myopic comment. He covers the amount of ground that can be snugly fitted inside of an n deck circle.He should worry about his hitting and his toe rather than his position. Let him dh, or trade him back for Cameron

flyer85
09-30-2006, 01:53 PM
The Reds are in a world of trouble if Griffey is still in CF next year.his play there is a hige detriment. Man needs to move to first base a lot of his injuries are a direct result of running in the OF.

Unless he is traded(which I find unlikely) he will be in CF in 2007 and that will be much to the detriment of the team.

redsupport
09-30-2006, 01:54 PM
griffey is a lithopede

flyer85
09-30-2006, 01:54 PM
Ahhhh Griffey... if this decision IS left up to you next year... Krivsky is a dummy.or gutless or both

Krusty
09-30-2006, 01:58 PM
Who is running this ship.....Krivsky or Junior?

Should make an interesting offseason.

redsupport
09-30-2006, 02:00 PM
griffey has incredible effrontery and audacity to declaim his position. His August RBI total was worse than rancid. He should be embarrased

RedFanAlways1966
09-30-2006, 02:20 PM
No shock with Griffey's comments. Lots players in this spot of their career feel they can still do it. Thank goodness he does not say things like, "Play me in CF or trade me." I hope he moves to a corner spot. It is best for the REDS and that is more important than any one player. I hope he doesn't do the "play me there or trade me" crap. If so, then goodbye. That s/b the case for any player who takes that attitude.

Keep it all in perspective, REDS fans. Just a guy who thinks he still can. But so far not a guy who gives ultimatums. Big difference... huge difference.

fearofpopvol1
09-30-2006, 02:36 PM
Also keep in mind that he'll be about 6 months older when spring training starts. Maybe he will see the writings on the wall then.

I hope he moves as well, but I just don't see it. I would be curious to see what would happen though if Narron just started playing him in a corner spot and how he would react to it.

BoydsOfSummer
09-30-2006, 02:42 PM
This has the potential to get ugly eventually. It's ugly enough for me right now. I don't see him being an average to better than average corner guy even. With the bat he'll be around there--maybe. But he's in serious decline and who knows how accelerated it will be next year. The end of his career could be messy, it's definately headed that way fast.

redsupport
09-30-2006, 02:48 PM
another idiotic ending like Larkin holding the position for three extra years. It called bathos, phony sentimentality in a small market team, its the jeremiad of losers, the epitome of Reds baseball

Handofdeath
09-30-2006, 03:25 PM
I disagree about the worse options part. I guess Hatteberg or Valentin would be worse but JR is not a Major League caliber CF anymore.

I do think you are on to something with your talk about change. I do not think Griffey will simply just move, because he still views himself as what he once was. Many on this board are very young and probably can't relate, but those of us who remember Crosley Field probably know what its like to realize that you can't do what you once could. You are usually the last to know and don't admit it willingly.

This can not simply be "you'll play RF because I say you'll play RF." Griffey has to realize it to avoid a huge issue. The Reds reputation is already less than stellar and it cripples them in negotiations with players. Even if the Reds are right if they want Griffey to move (and they would be), the way this is handled will have big implications. I remember when the BRM broke up. I remember the Reds balking when Bench said he wanted to play 3B (and rightfully so). After just letting Rose, Morgan and Perez go, the perception was "now they're messing with Johnny Bench." The Reds can not afford to be seen as "messing with Griffey." They have to get him to move willingly. Oh and those who want to trade the problem, he's 10-5 so he can't be traded w/o his permission. Even if the Reds eat the whole contract he may not go if the team he is going to won't play him in CF. They have to make him realize its time.


But I don't think too many people would look at it as "messing with Griffey." The vast majority of Reds fans know that the Griffey Jr. they have is not the one that the Reds traded for a few years back. He has been disappointing and I don't know that he necessarily holds a special place in that many hearts of Reds fans. It was a great story when he came but it wound up amounting to very little statistics wise. Most Reds fans know that he can't play an adequate CF even when healthy which is never. The Reds have to get a good CF this offseason and that way the Reds can put the ball in Junior's court. If the Reds got Gary Matthews Jr. to play CF there is no way Junior can say that he deserves to play in CF. They have to play this smart. But Griffey has got to move.

WMR
09-30-2006, 04:04 PM
Flipping DUNN could cover more ground in CF than Griffey!

pedro
09-30-2006, 04:40 PM
I would like to not that the only time the word "me" was used in the article was in the title so it is not clear to me whether Griffey ever really phrased it that way.

goreds2
09-30-2006, 04:47 PM
Re: Griffey: Center still best for me

For HIM but not for the TEAM. Eric Davis swallowed his pride in 1990 and moved to left field. We all know what happened that magical season.

Mr Griffey, take some lessons from ERIC THE RED and prove me wrong for what I think of you as a TEAM player!! :bang:

oneupper
09-30-2006, 04:52 PM
I propose a foot race to the CF position between Freel, Denorfia and Griffey.
Whoever gets there first gets to play there.

(what?, that's how we did it on the sandlot)

Cyclone792
09-30-2006, 05:00 PM
Barring an acquisition I think Denofria should be in CF next year. I would much rather give him the chance than than go get someone like Torii Hunter as many hear have suggested.

Either way KG has no business being the CF for this team or any other.

I think pedro nailed it.

Either way, like RL said above, we'll see what the Reds' management team is made of by what their decision is regarding Griffey. The evidence is all over the place suggesting he's detrimental to the team in center field. It's just a question of will the Reds front office recognize it, and if they do will they act on it.

westofyou
09-30-2006, 05:22 PM
I propose a foot race to the CF position between Freel, Denorfia and Griffey.
Whoever gets there first gets to play there.

(what?, that's how we did it on the sandlot)

Kiki Cuyler was known as the fastest player in MLB in the late 20's and early 30's. Whne he ws about 40 or so he had a son who wanted to take a try at playing ball. Kiki didn't think that it was a good idea and couldn't convince him otherwise. So he made him a deal, they would have a foot race and if the son lost he'd give up the dream and get on with his life.

Apparently Kiki smoked his arse, by about 15 yards or so.

He had told his son prior, I had to quit playing because I was not as fast as once was.

Harold Cuyler moved on.

Aronchis
09-30-2006, 05:24 PM
Well, if Krivsky lets Griffey push him around, that would be ugly proof he is a wuss. I would give Griffey a option, either move to RF(with the way the team is constructed now) or waive your 10/5 rights, because you not playing CF for this team.

Time for Special K to show some balls and lay the law down.

mth123
09-30-2006, 07:10 PM
But I don't think too many people would look at it as "messing with Griffey." The vast majority of Reds fans know that the Griffey Jr. they have is not the one that the Reds traded for a few years back. He has been disappointing and I don't know that he necessarily holds a special place in that many hearts of Reds fans. It was a great story when he came but it wound up amounting to very little statistics wise. Most Reds fans know that he can't play an adequate CF even when healthy which is never. The Reds have to get a good CF this offseason and that way the Reds can put the ball in Junior's court. If the Reds got Gary Matthews Jr. to play CF there is no way Junior can say that he deserves to play in CF. They have to play this smart. But Griffey has got to move.

I agree that most of the fans won't see it that way. I'm concerned how it will be viewed by the player community. Another excuse to say the reds are in disarray or mistreat their stars and sign elsewhere.

I think he has got to move too, it would just solve a bunch of problems if he moves willingly. If this gets messy it won't help to attract other players which already seems hard enough.

Matt700wlw
09-30-2006, 07:11 PM
Maybe it's the best for him....but not for the Reds

Always Red
09-30-2006, 07:42 PM
Well, if Krivsky lets Griffey push him around, that would be ugly proof he is a wuss. I would give Griffey a option, either move to RF(with the way the team is constructed now) or waive your 10/5 rights, because you not playing CF for this team.

Time for Special K to show some balls and lay the law down.

Great point; we'll find out what kind of backbone Kriv has this offseason. Junior just lobbed the opening salvo over the bow.

If this team opens with Junior in CF in April, 2007, I will be mightily disappointed, and I'll take it as proof that things really have NOT changed.

Anyone with eyes to see could see the enormous defensive improvement with Freel in CF vs. Junior. And I have no idea if Freel is even an average MLB CF!

RedsBaron
09-30-2006, 08:20 PM
BC, WK & Narron need to TELL Griffey he is moving to LF.



I agree.

letsgojunior
09-30-2006, 08:38 PM
While I don't disagree with the analysis here, to clarify - Griffey at no point in the article says that "Center is still best for me." That's the headline put in by people who had nothing to do with conducting the interview or writing the story.

A headline consonant with Griffey's comments would be "I can still play center."

RFS62
09-30-2006, 08:48 PM
While I don't disagree with the analysis here, to clarify - Griffey at no point in the article says that "Center is still best for me." That's the headline put in by people who had nothing to do with conducting the interview or writing the story.

A headline consonant with Griffey's comments would be "I can still play center."



Yep. I don't know how it works at the Post, but I've always understood that headlines are written by someone other than the author of the piece. And they're often slanted to be controversial to get you to read the article.

It may well be that he said it, but you can't go by that headline, IMO, as absolute proof.

It would be well worth questioning Marc on his blog as to the attitude Junior expressed before we round up the lynch mob.

Matt700wlw
09-30-2006, 08:49 PM
Yep. I don't know how it works at the Post, but I've always understood that headlines are written by someone other than the author of the piece. And they're often slanted to be controversial to get you to read the article.



Most still are. Paul Daugherty, for example, doesn't write his headlines, but takes a lot of heat for them...

George Foster
09-30-2006, 09:19 PM
While I don't disagree with the analysis here, to clarify - Griffey at no point in the article says that "Center is still best for me." That's the headline put in by people who had nothing to do with conducting the interview or writing the story.

A headline consonant with Griffey's comments would be "I can still play center."

He is the only one in the free world that thinks he can still play center field. Sad. He is 36 and still thinks he's 25. Very sad.

Highlifeman21
09-30-2006, 10:08 PM
Count me in the crowd as not seeing Torii Hunter as a solution to the problem as well.


:wave:

I'm not only the President, but I'm a member of this club too!!

Give Denorfia a chance in CF. We made that Kearns trade for a reason. Denorfia was that reason.

Now, if we could just get Frank Robinson to manage our Reds to force Dunn to 1B and Griffey to LF, Soriano style. It would be amazing to have a manager that actually manages.

buckeyenut
10-01-2006, 07:00 AM
It is nice to hear the concept of conditioning over weight lifting. It's downright frightening that weights have been the only offseason approach since he's been in Cincy.

That said, if they can remove the 12 inches of gravy and soft cheese from centerfield, he might do ok next year.

To be clear, he has spent every offseason since coming to Cincinnati in rehab, working on coming back from some sort of MAJOR injury. This is the first offseason he won't be rehabbing, giving him an opportunity to spend more time and focus on conditioning. When you are rehabbing those big leg muscles, it is very difficult to get the cardio time in you might like.

redsupport
10-01-2006, 09:57 AM
Every winter, the blathering nonsense the inane hackneyed bromides come spewing out from the "griffey" camp, about how he is in the best shape and raring to go. What tripe

RFS62
10-01-2006, 10:06 AM
Every winter, the blathering nonsense the inane hackneyed bromides come spewing out from the "griffey" camp, about how he is in the best shape and raring to go. What tripe


And every year, the psuedo-intellectual yapping of the "griffey haters" camp rises to a crescendo with every nugget of misinformation and twisting of words to suit their purposes.

The tripe you refer to looks like filet mignon compared to that sad diatribe.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 11:33 AM
And every year, the psuedo-intellectual yapping of the "griffey haters" camp rises to a crescendo with every nugget of misinformation and twisting of words to suit their purposes.

.

Who are you referring to? I don't see this. But I definitely see what redsupport is talking about.

He's talking about the press fluff pieces that say Griffey's rededicating himself to working out his legs that are totally shot and can't be worked into shape anymore.

Sure, some people take blind potshots at Griffey, but I'd hardly call them intellectual or even pseudo-intellectual.

The fact is the guy's done. I don't need to write a dissertation about it. He's done. And Krivsky would endear himself to most fans if he'd do something about this situation.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 11:41 AM
And I'd add Milton to the equation: the fact is, what Krivsky and Cast wanted was to milk whatever they could out of his 9 million a year contract, and they "got" what they paid for: crap. If they allow Milton to do the same next year, then it proves to me that all they are doing is trying to "get their money's worth" out of Milton, not trying to build a winner. The gambit has been laid: do right by the fans, or spit on the fans. There is no middle ground vis. Griffey and Milton.

RFS62
10-01-2006, 11:48 AM
Hamstring torn completely loose from the bone, and screwed back on. Junior could have hung it up right there and collected the remaining checks on his contract, and NOBODY on earth could have questioned the move.

Instead, he undergoes yet another rehab of yet another injury to get back on the field.

Do you question his effort level or desire to play? His work ethic?

The pseudo-intellectual reference was in regards to the magnificant prose used to support a tired and simplistic point of view. I'm a big fan of Redsupport, as you probably know. But just because he's eloquent doesn't make what he says correct.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 11:49 AM
Do you question his effort level or desire to play? His work ethic?



Of course not. But who cares?

Is the noble Roman who bows out gracefully a dead concept? Must we suffer everyone's self-interest?

RFS62
10-01-2006, 11:51 AM
You'll have to excuse me if I disagree with your assesment of his abilities, which I do.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 11:56 AM
You'll have to excuse me if I disagree with your assesment of his abilities, which I do.

If your assessment is that Griffey plays a solid or respectable centerfield, then yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Vehemently.

RFS62
10-01-2006, 11:58 AM
The fact is the guy's done. I don't need to write a dissertation about it. He's done. And Krivsky would endear himself to most fans if he'd do something about this situation.



This is the assesment I'm referring to. I agree that he needs to be moved to a corner outfield spot.

I don't agree that he's done.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 12:02 PM
This is the assesment I'm referring to. I agree that he needs to be moved to a corner outfield spot.

I don't agree that he's done.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about his position on the field (cf. the article at the outset of the thread).

letsgojunior
10-01-2006, 12:17 PM
He is the only one in the free world that thinks he can still play center field. Sad. He is 36 and still thinks he's 25. Very sad.

What do you expect him to say in the article? "You know, looking at my range factor stats and judging by the balls that dropped in front of me this year, I'm really better suited for a corner outfield position given that I just don't have it anymore?"

Athletes always think they're still great even when they're not. Look at Willie Mays - he held on way too long judging by objective standards. I would be a little disturbed if he had the mentality that he was horrible, because that is just not the typical attitude of an athlete who has risen to such a high level of performance.

To me this article says nothing - the article is completely detached from the headline, because there is absolutely nothing in the article consonant with that headline.

The time to throw out the selfish tag is if he is approached by Krivsky and Narron and refuses to move. Then there's a serious problem. Otherwise, I'm not about to draw conclusions by a newspaper headline that was clearly written to spin facts and attract readers rather than tell an informative story.

westofyou
10-01-2006, 12:42 PM
Must we suffer everyone's self-interest?

Why not?

We do it here day in and day out.

What's one more fairy on the May Pole?

WMR
10-01-2006, 02:01 PM
I'm a big fan of Redsupport, as you probably know.

Hmmmmmmmm...

reds44
10-01-2006, 02:06 PM
If Denorfia is the everyday CFer next year, we need to go find someone to play LF or 2B (or SS whichever one BP doesn't play) that can leadoff.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 02:06 PM
Why not?

We do it here day in and day out.

What's one more fairy on the May Pole?

:confused:

I don't understand your comparison in the least. One's a discussion board and one's a career/workplace.

RANDY IN INDY
10-01-2006, 02:13 PM
Why not?

We do it here day in and day out.

What's one more fairy on the May Pole?

:beerme:

As far as MLB being a workplace, nobody is making anyone suffer, watch or listen. You can always find another way to amuse yourself.

Falls City Beer
10-01-2006, 02:20 PM
:beerme:

As far as MLB being a workplace, nobody is making anyone suffer, watch or listen. You can always find another way to amuse yourself.

Yeah, that has the same intellectual weight as: don't like the country? don't like the president? Then get out! Don't actually try to change anything wrong with your country. Your country's not worth fighting for, just rolling over for.

RedsManRick
10-01-2006, 02:26 PM
If Denorfia is the everyday CFer next year, we need to go find someone to play LF or 2B (or SS whichever one BP doesn't play) that can leadoff.

Throughout his career, Deno has been a solid OBP who works the count and has above average speed. Why couldn't he lead-off? Outside of Juan Pierre who is going to be ridiculously expensive for his talents, I'm not sure there's an option better than Deno on the FA market.

mth123
10-01-2006, 02:45 PM
If Denorfia is the everyday CFer next year, we need to go find someone to play LF or 2B (or SS whichever one BP doesn't play) that can leadoff.

I disagree here. If Lead-off was the main need on this team, then I would have no concern whatsoever with Deno. The problem (IMO) is you need a minimum of 4 power bats this day and age. Those are ususally LF, RF, 1B and 3B. If Griffey is in RF then you have 3 with he, Edwin and Dunn, but Hat at 1B means you need to get power from an up the middle spot. I don't think that is Deno, Phillips, or Freel. Aurilia is a free agent and probably priced out of here and the catchers are too questionable to be counted on for consistent power. So if you don't acquire power in CF, then you need to get it at 2B or SS.

Lead-off is covered with Deno/Freel IMO. I'd even let Hat Lead-off in a pinch. Freel's OBP is ok as is Hat's and though I'm not high on Deno's power prospects, the board (and some study) has convinced me his OBP will be decent. As for having a steal guy, speed is always nice but many steal guys negate any effect with the extra outs they make getting caught or picked-off.

reds44
10-01-2006, 02:49 PM
Throughout his career, Deno has been a solid OBP who works the count and has above average speed. Why couldn't he lead-off? Outside of Juan Pierre who is going to be ridiculously expensive for his talents, I'm not sure there's an option better than Deno on the FA market.
There is a reason at age 26 he was in the minors. He could be an everyday player, but not a top of the lineup guy.

RANDY IN INDY
10-01-2006, 03:32 PM
Yeah, that has the same intellectual weight as: don't like the country? don't like the president? Then get out! Don't actually try to change anything wrong with your country. Your country's not worth fighting for, just rolling over for.

:laugh:

RedsManRick
10-01-2006, 04:40 PM
There is a reason at age 26 he was in the minors. He could be an everyday player, but not a top of the lineup guy.

It's not about finding the next Rickey Henderson. Sure, I'd love to go out and get a "legitimate" lead off guy. But the fact is that there simply aren't a whole lot of options out there. In terms of FA, those options aren't really much better than Deno, and Deno (if not Freel) is likely the best option on the team. Even then, the production difference between the best option out there and Denorfia is probably not too significant, relative to the gain we'd get by spending those dollars on pitching. If Deno can go out and put up .280/.360/.400 and see 4.0 P/PA, he's a top of the lineup player. If he's not, then who on the roster is? Do you want Hatteberg leading off? Phillips? That's basically what Freel has been doing and nobody is saying Freel isn't a top of the lineup guy (and btw, Freel had less than 200 PA before he turned 27).

I'm not a big fan of the purge of power from the lineup. But if Junior, Dunn, and EE are all in the lineup, that's 3 30 homer guys. The Twins (funny, huh?) have been winning the last 5 years in the AL with less power than that. There just aren't enough resources to go around to get more power, more defense, more OBP, and improve the pitching. Deno is a solid comprimise.

You're right, making the majors at 26 tells us he's probably not going to be an all-star. We're probably not going to be talking about buying out arb years or signing him to a 5 year deal. But it also doesn't tell he's going to be a bust. Useful, average players make late debuts all the time. You don't need (and can't afford) an all-star everywhere, as much as it would be nice. League average for cheap is a critical part of a roster. And if Deno doesn't work out, well Freel will be around and everybody seems to be putting him back on the bench.

kxblue
10-02-2006, 04:47 PM
You probably want to send Jr to LF instead of RF. But that would mean someone else has to move.

According to the polls here, over 50% of REDZONERs think that Dunn will be traded.

JR/Deno/Freel in '07?

And that would last, if we are lucky, 2 week. Nightmare scenarios all around.

edabbs44
10-02-2006, 05:02 PM
There is a reason at age 26 he was in the minors. He could be an everyday player, but not a top of the lineup guy.

Could the reason be that there was a logjam in the majors ahead of him? Ryan Howard was sitting in AAA for a while behind Thome. Now I'm not comparing Howard to Deno by any stretch, but don't use that reasoning as why Deno shouldn't be given a shot. He played excellent in September.

reds44
10-02-2006, 07:13 PM
Could the reason be that there was a logjam in the majors ahead of him? Ryan Howard was sitting in AAA for a while behind Thome. Now I'm not comparing Howard to Deno by any stretch, but don't use that reasoning as why Deno shouldn't be given a shot. He played excellent in September.
Isn't Ryan Howard 23?

I didn't say Denorfia shouldn't get a chance to play everyday, all I said was that he's not going to be a leadoff hitter.

pedro
10-02-2006, 07:15 PM
Isn't Ryan Howard 23?

I didn't say Denorfia shouldn't get a chance to play everyday, all I said was that he's not going to be a leadoff hitter.

nope, he'll be 27 in november. he's 10 days younger than dunn.

reds44
10-02-2006, 07:17 PM
nope, he'll be 27 in november. he's 10 days younger than dunn.
Really?

I had no idea.

I still don't think Denorfia will be a leadoff hitter at this level. His defense is amazing, so I think he could be an everyday player though.

pedro
10-02-2006, 07:19 PM
Really?

I had no idea.

I still don't think Denorfia will be a leadoff hitter at this level. His defense is amazing, so I think he could be an everyday player though.


Barring getting another lead off hitter I'm ok with Denofria being in that slot and in CF.

reds44
10-02-2006, 07:21 PM
Barring getting another lead off hitter I'm ok with Denofria being in that slot and in CF.
Well yes he would be the only option (assuming Freel doesn't play everyday which I hope he doesn't), but that is why I said if he is the starting CFer we need to get a leadoff man at another position.

edabbs44
10-02-2006, 09:53 PM
Well yes he would be the only option (assuming Freel doesn't play everyday which I hope he doesn't), but that is why I said if he is the starting CFer we need to get a leadoff man at another position.

Give Deno a shot and put the money into pitching. When you have people who might be able to do the job, you should give them every chance. I'd feel better with Deno and a FA pitcher than a FA CFer and Lohse. Deno went .352/.407/.463 in September. He BLEW OUT most Cincy players when it counted, esp Dunn and Jr. He should be starting the season as the CFer, no questions asked.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2006, 02:00 PM
Here's another...

Griffey isn’t interested in giving up spot in center
Tuesday, October 03, 2006
Jim Massie
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH


Ken Griffey Jr. has no plans to move from center field to a corner outfield position with the Cincinnati Reds next season.

Griffey addressed what has become a sore subject for him Sunday in Pittsburgh before the final game of the season. He said that nobody in management has asked him to switch positions and that he wouldn’t be so inclined despite suggestions in the media that the shift would benefit him.

"People are entitled to their own opinions," Griffey said. "To me, until they can get someone who can outplay me there and who’s going to be there for 10 years, why? Right now, I still feel that I can play that position."

Ryan Freel had some spectacular defensive moments in center and in right after the team traded Austin Kearns in July. Freel’s kamikaze style, however, left him out for the last two weeks of the season because of a broken left wrist. Freel also slumped in an everyday role, batting .238 after the All-Star break.

Griffey plays aggressively in the outfield. He missed most of September because of an injury to two toes on his right foot, suffered when he tried to climb the wall in center to rob San Francisco’s Barry Bonds of a home run.

Griffey also spent parts of April and May on the disabled list because of a right knee injury and acknowledged that his health for the season "could have been a lot better."

He played in 109 games and batted .252 with 27 home runs and 72 RBI.

Each number was down from 2005 when he won the comeback player of the year award in the National League. He would like to duplicate that season next year.

"I’d like no trips to the DL and to play 150 games," Griffey said. "Not being able to play … is aggravating, whether it’s the first game or the last game."

He saw improvement from the Reds this season in a number of areas, he said.

"I think the overall attitude and the understanding of what people’s roles are and what’s expected of them in the spring is better," he said. "The guys were in somewhat of a pennant race and know we’ve got to start off good and continue.

"Everybody picked us to be dead last, and we proved that we are a much better ballclub than that. If we can keep up the intensity all year, it will be fun for us."

RedsManRick
10-03-2006, 02:11 PM
"People are entitled to their own opinions," Griffey said. "To me, until they can get someone who can outplay me there and who’s going to be there for 10 years, why? Right now, I still feel that I can play that position."

Somebody needs to tell Junior that feeling like you can still play doesn't track down balls in the gap. His range is horrible, and range measurements account for his good jump and positioning. The comment that confuses me the most is the 10 year one. He's only got 2 or 3 years, and he's not going to be better. He's not a young guy who's going to learn and improve and be a gold glove winner in 5 years. It's about who will be better next year. Defensively speaking finding a better CF would've been as easy as looking to his left the past few years. And his bat will player regardless of where he's playing defense.

WMR
10-03-2006, 02:12 PM
"People are entitled to their own opinions," Griffey said. "To me, until they can get someone who can outplay me there and who’s going to be there for 10 years, why? Right now, I still feel that I can play that position."

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

Maybe Griffey thinks if he makes a big enough stink now he'll cow Krivsky into not even asking the question.

flyer85
10-03-2006, 02:15 PM
What the hell has that got to do with anything?Nothing. He isn't interested in moving and has laid drawn his line in the sand. I'm guessing he thinks the FO doesn't have the cojones to cross it.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-03-2006, 02:33 PM
Nothing. He isn't interested in moving and has laid drawn his line in the sand. I'm guessing he thinks the FO doesn't have the cojones to cross it.

And I bet he's right.

More of the same.

BRM
10-03-2006, 02:38 PM
It's going to be very interesting to see how Krivsky handles this one. We'll see how devoted he really is in improving the team defense.

westofyou
10-03-2006, 02:39 PM
And I bet he's right.

More of the same.

Don't be so sure, sometimes it takes a new regime to take the heat.

Look at the Jocketty/LaRussa handling of Ozzie in St Louis, same setup. After the Larkin situation I suspect the new regime won't be traversing the same road.

Griffey looks like he's doing his best to strike first. Skill position players are the hardest to convince that the party is over.

redsupport
10-03-2006, 02:40 PM
I would release him, what right does he have to state that the criteria for replacement is that they should be here for 10 years. Let him play dh somewhere

flyer85
10-03-2006, 02:42 PM
It's going to be very interesting to see how Krivsky handles this one. We'll see how devoted he really is in improving the team defense.It is the major issue of the off-season. I can guarentee that every player on the team is watching this one.

BRM
10-03-2006, 02:45 PM
It is the major issue of the off-season. I can guarentee that every player on the team is watching this one.

What happens if Griff wins the battle? Does Krivsky's rep take a hit?

flyer85
10-03-2006, 02:53 PM
What happens if Griff wins the battle? Does Krivsky's rep take a hit?I think everyone will realize that having the best team out their is only lip service when it comes to certain players and positions. However, if WK/JN can bend Jr to his will then obviously everyone else is fair game.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-03-2006, 02:54 PM
Krivsky/Narron had all of 2006 to make a statement and they waited and waited and waited and waited and, finally, the annual injury worked itself out.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them do nothing, counting on an early injury in 2007.

I would like to see them be proactive and not worry about feelings. Six years of losing baseball limits my compassion for this situation.

RedsManRick
10-03-2006, 03:06 PM
I'm not convinced the WK/JN are really on board with the statement "Ken Griffey Jr. is among the, if not the, worst everyday defensive CF in MLB." I think they know his range is slipping, but I don't think they really buy in to how much it hurts the team, as shown by Cyclone et. al.

Junior certainly seems to be drawing the line, and I don't have any faith that WK/JN will force the issue, primarily because they think they have bigger fish to fry.

flyer85
10-03-2006, 03:09 PM
I'm not convinced the WK/JN are really on board with the statement "Ken Griffey Jr. is among the, if not the, worst everyday defensive CF in MLB." I think they know his range is slipping, but I don't think they really buy in to how much it hurts the team, as shown by Cyclone et. al.I haven't seen any evidence they pay much attention to any kind of advanced metrics.

RedsManRick
10-03-2006, 03:11 PM
I haven't seen any evidence they pay much attention to any kind of advanced metrics.

Exactly, it seems Krivsky gives those "stats" the same lipservice every GM does, but that he's not the kind of guy who makes decisions based on them. No GM who actively used advanced metrics would put Juan Castro on a major league roster, let alone give him a 2 year extention.

I like that he's aggressive. I like that he's honest. But I still am not sold on his critical decisions of managing a 40 man roster.

flyer85
10-03-2006, 03:13 PM
Exactly, it seems Krivsky gives those "stats" the same lipservice every GM does, but that he's not the kind of guy who makes decisions based on them. No GM who actively used advanced metrics would put Juan Castro on a major league roster, let alone give him a 2 year extention.

I like that he's aggressive. I like that he's honest. But he seems to me like a humbler, nicer, honest version of Bowden.or have really wanted the likes of Cormier, Majewski and Bray for help in 2006.

BRM
10-03-2006, 03:14 PM
I'm not convinced the WK/JN are really on board with the statement "Ken Griffey Jr. is among the, if not the, worst everyday defensive CF in MLB." I think they know his range is slipping, but I don't think they really buy in to how much it hurts the team, as shown by Cyclone et. al.

Junior certainly seems to be drawing the line, and I don't have any faith that WK/JN will force the issue, primarily because they think they have bigger fish to fry.

Improving the defense must not be on the menu at all then. Defensive improvement must start up the middle. CF and either 2B or SS, wherever Phillips does not play.

flyer85
10-03-2006, 03:17 PM
Improving the defense must not be on the menu at all then. Defensive improvement must start up the middle. CF and either 2B or SS, wherever Phillips does not play.improving the defense has to start at the prime defensive positions and CF is the one most in need of improving. Spending a lot of time worrying about improving the non-prime defensive positions is a waste of time if glaring holes in the prime positions go unaddressed.

BRM
10-03-2006, 03:19 PM
improving the defense has to start at the prime defensive positions and CF is the one most in need of improving. Spending a lot of time worrying about improving the non-prime defensive positions is a waste of time if glaring holes in the prime positions go unaddressed.

I agree 100%. Wayne certainly has his work cut out for him and Junior just made it a lot tougher.

RedsManRick
10-03-2006, 03:19 PM
improving the defense has to start at the prime defensive positions and CF is the one most in need of improving. Spending a lot of time worrying about improving the non-prime defensive positions is a waste of time if glaring holes in the prime positions go unaddressed.

I agree 100%. However, turning your superstar in to a disgruntled distraction is it's own set of problems. I think they'll focus on pitching, pooh pooh the OF issue, and then in ST tell Deno to go to CF and Junior to go to RF. I hope I'm wrong and they address it head on, ASAP. We'll see.

registerthis
10-03-2006, 03:36 PM
I would release him, what right does he have to state that the criteria for replacement is that they should be here for 10 years. Let him play dh somewhere

Yep. Eating $24 million is certainly in the Reds best interest.

Why not have them re-sign Paul Wilson while they're at it?

Strikes Out Looking
10-03-2006, 03:42 PM
I don't know where this all ends, but I'm pretty sure it is not pretty.

Griffey's play this year was inconsistent. And then when his day to day toe injury kept him out of the pennant race except for one swing in September, it moved me to the get rid of him side of the argument.

Maybe I'll cool down over the long winter (which is one week longer, at least, then it should be IMO). But right now, I'd be glad to see him stay in Orlando next year and not return to CF in Cincy.

Cyclone792
10-03-2006, 03:48 PM
I was just browsing through a page and this caught my eye ...

2006 CF Zone Rating

Denorfia: .909
Freel: .877
Griffey: .822

RANDY IN INDY
10-03-2006, 03:54 PM
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything."

Toby Harrah, 1983

BRM
10-03-2006, 03:59 PM
"Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything."

Toby Harrah, 1983

True. However, you don't need any statistics to see that Junior is a below average defender in CF. It's pretty easy to see. His range has left him.

RANDY IN INDY
10-03-2006, 04:03 PM
No argument there. He needs to move to a corner, if they can find a player that can play good defense, hit and stay healthy in center. I don't think the Reds can afford a "black hole" at the plate with the lineup they currently have. I hope they find that individual and that Griffey moves with class.

BoydsOfSummer
10-03-2006, 06:59 PM
What happens if Griff wins the battle? Does Krivsky's rep take a hit?
BRM is offline Add to BRM's Reputation Report Post Reply With Quote

We need a way to give and take rep points from these guys. I think that would be a cool idea. Plus, it could release some frustration sometimes. Somewgere at the top of the site put Kriv,Narron,Casty and maybe even players. If I can give rep points to posters good or bad,why not Reds players and management?

GAC
10-03-2006, 09:10 PM
No argument there. He needs to move to a corner, if they can find a player that can play good defense, hit and stay healthy in center. I don't think the Reds can afford a "black hole" at the plate with the lineup they currently have. I hope they find that individual and that Griffey moves with class.

I look at the situation alot like this....

http://screenshots.softonic.com/s2de/47000/47721/1_slidepuzz1.jpg

Jr needs to move. Your OFers are Dunn, Griffey, Freel, Denorfria.

So start sliding the pieces around in the puzzle. Who gets pushed out? You still have that "black hole" IMO.

Dunn to 1B? The Reds didn't resign Hatteberg to sit the bench. And Dunn has no interest in playing 1B (that discussion is another thread).

And where does Votto, who only knows 1B, fit into this equation? Try to make a mid-season trade of Hatteberg? Great! Go for it. But we are still back to "square one" and haven't fixed the problem... what to do with Dunn, and how to address the OF.

But even if you get Dunn to go to 1B, you're left with the other three as your OFers. Deno I like, and needs to be given a serious look-see. Freel, as much as I like him, has not shown me he is an everyday player (especially in CF).

I just hope that Jay Bruce is the real deal, and at some point enables us to make a trade of Freel. ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
10-04-2006, 12:13 AM
I look at the situation alot like this....

http://screenshots.softonic.com/s2de/47000/47721/1_slidepuzz1.jpg

Jr needs to move. Your OFers are Dunn, Griffey, Freel, Denorfria.

So start sliding the pieces around in the puzzle. Who gets pushed out? You still have that "black hole" IMO.

Dunn to 1B? The Reds didn't resign Hatteberg to sit the bench. And Dunn has no interest in playing 1B (that discussion is another thread).

And where does Votto, who only knows 1B, fit into this equation? Try to make a mid-season trade of Hatteberg? Great! Go for it. But we are still back to "square one" and haven't fixed the problem... what to do with Dunn, and how to address the OF.

But even if you get Dunn to go to 1B, you're left with the other three as your OFers. Deno I like, and needs to be given a serious look-see. Freel, as much as I like him, has not shown me he is an everyday player (especially in CF).

I just hope that Jay Bruce is the real deal, and at some point enables us to make a trade of Freel. ;)


-Dunn to 1B or traded -Hats is either an expensive back-up (to Dunn), traded at the deadline, or keeping 1B warm for Votto's mid-summer arrival (if Dunn is traded).

-Griffey to LF or traded. -I assume LF is the better place to stash your worst outfielder.

-Denorfia to CF or FA acquisition-Preferably Denorfia, since he's ML minimum cheap and the Reds have limited payflex in 2007 (transition year) due to Milton (last year), Larue (last year), etc. albatross contracts.

No exceptions. Pretty simple actually.

Aronchis
10-04-2006, 12:37 AM
-Dunn to 1B or traded -Hats is either an expensive back-up (to Dunn), traded at the deadline, or keeping 1B warm for Votto's mid-summer arrival (if Dunn is traded).

-Griffey to LF or traded. -I assume LF is the better place to stash your worst outfielder.

-Denorfia to CF or FA acquisition-Preferably Denorfia, since he's ML minimum cheap and the Reds have limited payflex in 2007 (transition year) due to Milton (last year), Larue (last year), etc. albatross contracts.

No exceptions. Pretty simple actually.

and once again, Dunn isn't a 1st baseman, nor am bothered by his play in left field, a non-important percentage of the defense. Move Griffey, let the Dunn rage go by the board and find something that really needs upgraded.

mth123
10-04-2006, 05:14 AM
and once again, Dunn isn't a 1st baseman, nor am bothered by his play in left field, a non-important percentage of the defense. Move Griffey, let the Dunn rage go by the board and find something that really needs upgraded.

Agree about Dunn. His defense isn't a huge problem in left field and if he really can't catch the ball, 1B is the last place you want him. Purely poor defenders don't usually thrive at 1B (Ortiz and Hafner are 2 examples). 1B needs to have decent catch the ball skills. 1B also has an assignment on every play be it cut-of man, charging a bunt, covering the bag, etc. I don't see Dunn being successful there. 1B is a great place to hide a guy with no range and slow footspeed, but if a guy can't catch consistently, I'd rather he be in LF. Griffey would be a better candidate for 1B IMO.

But, why block Votto? He is one of the hopes for the future on this team and just could be the missing guy for this offense in 2007. If one of these guys is moved ahead of him, he'll be reduced to nothing (probably hurts his trade value as well). I personally hope Votto is at 1b in 2007, if not from the start, by Memorial Day anyway.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-04-2006, 10:29 AM
and once again, Dunn isn't a 1st baseman, nor am bothered by his play in left field, a non-important percentage of the defense. Move Griffey, let the Dunn rage go by the board and find something that really needs upgraded.

I have no problem with Dunn as I have been in the pro-Dunn camp from the onset and I truly believe he is more valuable to our lineup than the typical Reds fan does. With that said, Dunn's future is either 1B or DH. He is 6-6, 265+. You don't see too many of these types cruising around the OF into their 30's. Dunn turns 27 next month. The sooner he is moved, the better for his future. Moving him to 1B, a position I'm sure he'll be able to play, due to his athletic ability, would open up a spot for a better defensive outfielder in Denorfia or a free agent and take the bat out of Hatteberg's hands, who by looking at his career trends and age, is heading for another one of those odd-year valley's. I want to make it clear, however, that I don't think Dunn is horrendous in LF. In fact, I think his defense shortcomings are a bit exaggerated. It's just that he's average to slight below-average out there. But, it's not about defense, it's about moving Jr. over to LF and getting Hatteberg and his "average" glove and bat out of the lineup. In addition, when the time comes to tell Jr. he's done in CF, it may be an easier pill to swallow if he's moved over to LF. I don't think Jr. is going to accept losing the CF job and being told he's playing 1B all at the same time. That would be too much for him, IMO.

I don't think trading Dunn is a great idea at this time because:

1. His value is at an all-time low. We'd be selling low, kind of like what we did with Kearns and Lopez. Not a good idea.
2. I don't trust that Krivsky could get enough for him, based on # 1 (above) and the fact that I don't trust Krivsky at this time (see Kearns and Lopez again).

But if the right prospects could be brought in, I wouldn't have a problem with dealing him. This team is not a contender in 2007 as it looks like a transition year with high contracts coming off the books for 2008. With Dunn, Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, Encarnacion and yes, Denorfia, I think the core is there essentially to compete for it all in 2008. If Dunn is traded, the Reds will have a year to replace his offensive production. Not an easy task, but with the emergence of Jay Bruce, another year of experience for Denorfia, not to mention, the increased payroll flexibility to bring in another big bopper in 2008 (once the 2007 contracts are ridden of) I don't think his replacement is as difficult as many as made it out to be.

If it is decided that Dunn is a part of the foundation that will compete for it all in 2008 and beyond, a move to 1B in 2007 will only help solidify his and the Reds standing for the future.

Then what about Votto you ask? Well, if Dunn is kept and moved to 1B, Votto can either be traded or moved to another position such as OF. From what I have heard of Votto, he is a decent athlete and probably more mobile than Dunn, as his 24 steals in AA this past year suggest. I don't think a move to the OF would hurt him or the Reds, as his bat would more than make up for any shortcoming there. As you mentioned above, LF is a non-important position. I doubt Griffey has two years left in him to roam the OF. Votto can take his licks in AAA in 2007 and after a late-season call-up, be ready to take on one of the corner OF spots in 2008. that is if you don't trade him.



Agree about Dunn. His defense isn't a huge problem in left field and if he really can't catch the ball, 1B is the last place you want him. Purely poor defenders don't usually thrive at 1B (Ortiz and Hafner are 2 examples). 1B needs to have decent catch the ball skills. 1B also has an assignment on every play be it cut-of man, charging a bunt, covering the bag, etc. I don't see Dunn being successful there. 1B is a great place to hide a guy with no range and slow footspeed, but if a guy can't catch consistently, I'd rather he be in LF. Griffey would be a better candidate for 1B IMO.


I don't follow this logic at all. If he can't catch, you'd want him in LF? First of all, I believe Dunn can catch and I believe is has the skill-set to at least be average at 1B. You mentioned yourself that 1B is a position to hide a guy, but at the same time, you think LF is better for a guy that can't catch. I don't understand that. Dunn is limited in range in LF, but I don't follow you with the not being able to catch thing. You also provide examples in Ortiz and Hafner and like I mentioned above, Dunn's future is at 1B or DH. If he can't manage the transition to 1B, then maybe a move to the AL would be better for his future. 2007 is a perfect year to test it out. This team will not be competing for anything, unless there is another bizarro-world season is which nobody in the Central takes the division. It will be a transition year. I can't think of a better time than 2007 to make the move for Dunn.

mth123
10-04-2006, 07:46 PM
I don't follow this logic at all. If he can't catch, you'd want him in LF? First of all, I believe Dunn can catch and I believe is has the skill-set to at least be average at 1B. You mentioned yourself that 1B is a position to hide a guy, but at the same time, you think LF is better for a guy that can't catch. I don't understand that. Dunn is limited in range in LF, but I don't follow you with the not being able to catch thing. You also provide examples in Ortiz and Hafner and like I mentioned above, Dunn's future is at 1B or DH. If he can't manage the transition to 1B, then maybe a move to the AL would be better for his future. 2007 is a perfect year to test it out. This team will not be competing for anything, unless there is another bizarro-world season is which nobody in the Central takes the division. It will be a transition year. I can't think of a better time than 2007 to make the move for Dunn.

The first basemen has to catch more balls and is in on more plays than anyone except the pitcher and the catcher. A LF is in on 2 or 3 plays a game. I think its better to hide a poor fielder in LF than at 1B. The only exception would be if the guy simply can't run at all due to injury or chronic problems (i.e. Griffey). IMO a poor 1B will cost his team more than a poor LF.

GAC
10-04-2006, 08:49 PM
-Dunn to 1B or traded -Hats is either an expensive back-up (to Dunn), traded at the deadline, or keeping 1B warm for Votto's mid-summer arrival (if Dunn is traded).

-Griffey to LF or traded. -I assume LF is the better place to stash your worst outfielder.

-Denorfia to CF or FA acquisition-Preferably Denorfia, since he's ML minimum cheap and the Reds have limited payflex in 2007 (transition year) due to Milton (last year), Larue (last year), etc. albatross contracts.

No exceptions. Pretty simple actually.

No, it's not that simple. First - try trading Griffey? ;)

Secondly - it would be probably easy to trade Dunn. But you've now created another "black hole" in an offense that really struggled in the 2nd half of '06 to produce runs. Who replaces that?

And if you move Jr to LF, and Dunn to 1B, who is that other OFer (besides Deno)? Freel? Show me where he has historically produced on a consistent basis as an everyday OFer?