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View Full Version : Critique this wacky trade idea



Natty Redlocks
10-01-2006, 10:03 PM
Hello everybody. I know a lot of questionable (okay, idiotic) trade ideas get thrown around here. Far be it from me to break tradition.

Chicago Cubs get:

Adam Dunn
Ryan Freel

Reds get:

Matt Murton
Ryan Theriot
David Aardsma
Carlos Marmol

I thank you in advance for your enthusiastic response to my brilliant proposal. :rolleyes:

vaticanplum
10-01-2006, 10:11 PM
I wouldn't take all of that even for Dunn. I expect better, more established pitching in return for him.

Will M
10-01-2006, 10:12 PM
Dunn should be traded for the best established pitcher we can get for him

Joseph
10-01-2006, 10:14 PM
I've seen Matt Murton play, why the love for him?

Natty Redlocks
10-01-2006, 10:22 PM
I wouldn't take all of that even for Dunn. I expect better, more established pitching in return for him.

I'm sure we could get a more established pitcher for him, but the idea behind the trade is to fill as many needs as possible with promising, cheap guys who've already contributed on the ML level but would be attainable precisely because they're not fully proven.

Degenerate39
10-01-2006, 10:33 PM
That trade makes me sick to my stomach

Natty Redlocks
10-01-2006, 10:40 PM
I've seen Matt Murton play, why the love for him?

Have you seen Dunn play? ;)

Murton's year has been very similar to Encarnacion's: patient approach, uses the whole field, hits for average, lots of doubles, and looks like he might be a very good hitter in the near future. He struggled in the first half, lost some playing time, but came on pretty strong (.900+ OPS) in the second half. At the very least, he'd be an outstanding platoon partner/ 4th OF, if the Reds signed someone else to replace Dunn.

Patrick Bateman
10-01-2006, 10:41 PM
Don't trade quality for quantity.

Highlifeman21
10-01-2006, 10:42 PM
Have you seen Dunn play? ;)

Murton's year has been very similar to Encarnacion's: patient approach, uses the whole field, hits for average, lots of doubles, and looks like he might be a very good hitter in the near future. He struggled in the first half, lost some playing time, but came on pretty strong (.900+ OPS) in the second half. At the very least, he'd be an outstanding platoon partner/ 4th OF, if the Reds signed someone else to replace Dunn.


Right there you're admitting a glaring weakness created by your trade proposal. And to say MM will produce like EE is the pipe dream of all pipe dreams.

It was a wacky trade idea, i'll give it that....

Natty Redlocks
10-01-2006, 10:56 PM
Right there you're admitting a glaring weakness created by your trade proposal. And to say MM will produce like EE is the pipe dream of all pipe dreams.

It was a wacky trade idea, i'll give it that....

Actually, I think Murton might wind up better than EE, but only time will tell. Not sure what you mean by a "glaring weakness". As long as Griffey is on this team, the Reds probably should have a starting quality 4th OF available to replace him, like Kearns and Pena used to be.

mth123
10-02-2006, 06:16 AM
I wouldn't take all of that even for Dunn. I expect better, more established pitching in return for him.

What she said!

Actually, I like the players you are proposing, just giving up too much for them. Wouldn't mind having Theriot and Marmol. Not sold on Murton yet, but I think he will be an ok guy. Maybe a Trot Nixon type. Don't know much about his defense. I don't understand why Aardsma isn't in a much bigger role somewhere by now. He either is a big disappointment or he's not been given a chance by Dusty Baker.

If you are talking Cubs, I think they could get better really quickly. Pie in CF. Lee back at 1B. Theriot all year at 2B. Solid Bullpen. They need to sign a starter. They have Pierre and Wood coming off the books so there is probably some cash available to sign some one. They need to sign Aramis Ramirez to an extension so he doesn't opt out.

Highlifeman21
10-02-2006, 08:42 AM
Actually, I think Murton might wind up better than EE, but only time will tell. Not sure what you mean by a "glaring weakness". As long as Griffey is on this team, the Reds probably should have a starting quality 4th OF available to replace him, like Kearns and Pena used to be.

You said we'd have to go out and get a player to replace Dunn after the Murton deal, so your original trade idea left us with that "glaring weakness" as I called it. We'd have to make two trades, according to you, and go get another OF.

I'm not too familiar with MM, so I'm gonna have to go see how accurate a statement that MM might be better than EE can be. Maybe you're right, who knows?

Natty Redlocks
10-02-2006, 12:45 PM
What she said!

Actually, I like the players you are proposing, just giving up too much for them. Wouldn't mind having Theriot and Marmol. Not sold on Murton yet, but I think he will be an ok guy. Maybe a Trot Nixon type. Don't know much about his defense. I don't understand why Aardsma isn't in a much bigger role somewhere by now. He either is a big disappointment or he's not been given a chance by Dusty Baker.

If you are talking Cubs, I think they could get better really quickly. Pie in CF. Lee back at 1B. Theriot all year at 2B. Solid Bullpen. They need to sign a starter. They have Pierre and Wood coming off the books so there is probably some cash available to sign some one. They need to sign Aramis Ramirez to an extension so he doesn't opt out.

I hope you're right and we can get more for him. After the Nats trade, I'm not holding my breath. Aardsma could be a closer somewhere for a long time; I'd rather take a chance on him than someone like Borowski.

I agree about the Cubs, though reportedly they want to bring Pierre back. Freel would make a great stopgap til Pie is ready; it would be way better than 3-5 years of Slappy.

A lot of Cub fans aren't sold on Theriot since he never did anything in the minors, but he looks like a Freel-type overachiever so far. Love to see him and Olmedo share the other middle infield spot -- they both play second and short, so if Phillips doesn't work out at SS, we're still okay.

flyer85
10-02-2006, 12:52 PM
I hope that is a bad joke.

When you trade for young guys you want to target ones that could be special, not ones whose high side is to be average.

I'd rather take just one guy who could be special than 4 guys who could be average at best.

Natty Redlocks
10-02-2006, 12:52 PM
You said we'd have to go out and get a player to replace Dunn after the Murton deal, so your original trade idea left us with that "glaring weakness" as I called it. We'd have to make two trades, according to you, and go get another OF.

I'm not too familiar with MM, so I'm gonna have to go see how accurate a statement that MM might be better than EE can be. Maybe you're right, who knows?

We wouldn't necessarily need another OF. I'd be happy to see Murton playing every day. The 4th OF has more to do with Junior's unreliability than Murton. But he'd be cheap enough they could afford to sign someone like Craig Wilson or David Dellucci if they wanted to.

Highlifeman21
10-02-2006, 01:20 PM
We wouldn't necessarily need another OF. I'd be happy to see Murton playing every day. The 4th OF has more to do with Junior's unreliability than Murton. But he'd be cheap enough they could afford to sign someone like Craig Wilson or David Dellucci if they wanted to.

David Dellucci yes.

Craig Wilson no.


I've had the fine fortune of watching David Dellucci in this city, and I like what he brings to a team. When Abreu was salary dumped to the Yankees, Dellucci stepped in and put up good numbers playing everyday. He has just enough power to make you respect him, and hits the ball to all parts of the yard; two things I like in a hitter.

With these new names you've introduced, I'd like to see us not trade Dunn, but rather have an OF of Dunn, Dellucci and Murton. Denorfia then becomes our 4th OF, and a PR off the bench.

vance
10-02-2006, 05:13 PM
You said we'd have to go out and get a player to replace Dunn after the Murton deal, so your original trade idea left us with that "glaring weakness" as I called it. We'd have to make two trades, according to you, and go get another OF.

I'm not too familiar with MM, so I'm gonna have to go see how accurate a statement that MM might be better than EE can be. Maybe you're right, who knows?

I don't know why it is such a pipe dream to think Murton could produce as well as Encarncion.

Murton's 2006 line: 297/365/444/809
Encarnacion's line: 276/359/460/819

Those look eeirely similar. EE is 23 and Murton is 24. The ages are also comparable. Both are likely to improve some along the way. Murton would have had a much better year if he hadn't had a horrid May in which he hit 212/257/227 and EE would have had a better year if not for his 214/299/286 September.

Now would it be a good idea to replace Dunn with Murton? There's going to be a huge loss of power if you do, though you might have a more consistent hitter.

If the original poster removed Freel from the trade, it might be more palatable.

Or what of an offer of Murton + Dempster + Marmol for Dunn?

vaticanplum
10-02-2006, 06:07 PM
Marmol

Murton is fine, whatever. It's the above part of this trade that causes me the most concern. Marmol may be good or he may not. he's shown nothing yet to convince me that he will end up being a reliable starting pitcher. I'm not saying he won't, but I am saying he hasn't proven it yet.

Adam Dunn is not a prospect. His skills are established, well-known and rare, and a heck of a lot of teams would be happy to have him. I take nothing less than an already-established #1 or 2 starter for him, unless it's a salary dump situation, which I don't see the need for either.

flyer85
10-02-2006, 06:17 PM
wanna trade Dunn to the Cubs.

I would take Pie Guzman and Wuertz

vance
10-02-2006, 06:18 PM
Murton is fine, whatever. It's the above part of this trade that causes me the most concern. Marmol may be good or he may not. he's shown nothing yet to convince me that he will end up being a reliable starting pitcher. I'm not saying he won't, but I am saying he hasn't proven it yet.

Adam Dunn is not a prospect. His skills are established, well-known and rare, and a heck of a lot of teams would be happy to have him. I take nothing less than an already-established #1 or 2 starter for him, unless it's a salary dump situation, which I don't see the need for either.


I can understand the reservations on Marmol. They are fair and just.

I will agree that Dunn is an elite player. I'm not sure that baseball people will offer a number one starter for him. Those types are rarely traded except for the extremely elite. While Dunn has some very good skills, I'm not sure that everyone in baseball shares those same ideas. Getting a proven 1 or 2 starter will be tough.

My guess if the Reds were to trade Dunn for pitching is either a package of players, a proven #3 starter with a prospect thrown in, or a high ceiling pitcher who has "ace" potential but hasn't reached that ceiling. Whether the Reds should or would make those deals, I don't know. While I and others value Dunn's special skill set, I think his low BA, struggles down the stretch, and defensive questions will drive down his trade value.

vance
10-02-2006, 06:19 PM
wanna trade Dunn to the Cubs.

I would take Pie Guzman and Wuertz

That would be a good package if you want to go the prospect route.

Highlifeman21
10-02-2006, 06:38 PM
I don't know why it is such a pipe dream to think Murton could produce as well as Encarncion.

Murton's 2006 line: 297/365/444/809
Encarnacion's line: 276/359/460/819

Those look eeirely similar. EE is 23 and Murton is 24. The ages are also comparable. Both are likely to improve some along the way. Murton would have had a much better year if he hadn't had a horrid May in which he hit 212/257/227 and EE would have had a better year if not for his 214/299/286 September.

Now would it be a good idea to replace Dunn with Murton? There's going to be a huge loss of power if you do, though you might have a more consistent hitter.

If the original poster removed Freel from the trade, it might be more palatable.

Or what of an offer of Murton + Dempster + Marmol for Dunn?

Like I said, I don't know much about MM, so thank you for giving me some numbers on him.

That being said, I haven't seen 1 good argument/trade idea to move Adam Dunn. He has more value on our team than being traded. We won't get that top line elite pitching we think we need by trading him.

Why such urgency to trade our best player?

venicereds
10-02-2006, 07:07 PM
If I were trading Dunn for a Cubs prospect, I'd want Rich Hill. I don't know what their relative trade values are, but if you could get Hill +?? for Dunn and use Dunn's money to pay for an hitter, I think you'd have a better team.

reds44
10-02-2006, 07:08 PM
Hello everybody. I know a lot of questionable (okay, idiotic) trade ideas get thrown around here. Far be it from me to break tradition.

Chicago Cubs get:

Adam Dunn
Ryan Freel

Reds get:

Matt Murton
Ryan Theriot
David Aardsma
Carlos Marmol

I thank you in advance for your enthusiastic response to my brilliant proposal. :rolleyes:

I LOVE Matt Murton and have suggested trading for him before.

I was more thinking like

Cubs get:
Adam Dunn

Reds get:
Matt Murton
Bob Howry
Felix Pie

Krusty
10-02-2006, 07:12 PM
I LOVE Matt Murton and have suggested trading for him before.

I was more thinking like

Cubs get:
Adam Dunn

Reds get:
Matt Murton
Bob Howry
Felix Pie

With Pierre to be a free agent, I think the Cubs would be reluctant to trade Pie.

But what if the deal was Dunn for Prior and Murton?

reds44
10-02-2006, 07:15 PM
With Pierre to be a free agent, I think the Cubs would be reluctant to trade Pie.

But what if the deal was Dunn for Prior and Murton?
That is a tempting offer that I would have to think about.

How much $$$ does Prior make? I just don't knwo if I want to trade Dunn for Murton and a ? mark.

Pie didn't exactly tear it up in the minors, so I don't know if Pie is going to start the year in the majors. That could make the Cubs be more willing to trade them.

Pie could be a helliva backup plan in case Deno flops.

Natty Redlocks
10-02-2006, 11:16 PM
If I were trading Dunn for a Cubs prospect, I'd want Rich Hill. I don't know what their relative trade values are, but if you could get Hill +?? for Dunn and use Dunn's money to pay for an hitter, I think you'd have a better team.

Rich Hill would be nice but the Cubs need him way more than they need Dunn.

Natty Redlocks
10-02-2006, 11:18 PM
I LOVE Matt Murton and have suggested trading for him before.

I was more thinking like

Cubs get:
Adam Dunn

Reds get:
Matt Murton
Bob Howry
Felix Pie

Well, I'd certainly do that deal. I think the Cubs really like Howry though; he was about their most reliable reliever this year. Does no one else think Aardsma is ready to break out?

flyer85
10-02-2006, 11:21 PM
Does no one else think Aardsma is ready to break out?no but Wuertz is ready to.