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MartyFan
10-02-2006, 01:21 PM
I was listening to yesterdays game when Special K was in the booth with Marty and Marty asked him point blank if Juniro and Dunn would be back next season...he never answered the question...only saying "We'd have to get a heck of a lot to replace their numbers..."

I love Krivsky as the GM of this team and I am so stinking excited to see what he can do to improve this team with a full offseason.

flyer85
10-02-2006, 01:26 PM
I heard WK on with GG/CW this week and he was completely non-committal about the OF in 2007.

jesusfan
10-02-2006, 01:33 PM
I'm banking on a Junior-LF Hunter-CF Freel-RF... Trading Dunn for either a good, young SS/2nd basemen to team with BPhillips, and/or a good, 2 or 3 man in the rotation pitcher.... Maybe we can trade ole Donkey to the Rangers for Ian Kinsler and Vincente padilla...Maybe put together a package to get Otsuka too... There would be our #3 pitcher, closer and top of the order 2nd basemen to team with Phillips...

dunner13
10-02-2006, 01:39 PM
Padilla is a free agent, so we should just sign him. Dunn to the A's for Rich Harden.

BRM
10-02-2006, 01:41 PM
I think Reds fans might be awfully disappointed if they see Hunter everyday in CF.

goreds2
10-02-2006, 02:16 PM
I think Reds fans might be awfully disappointed if they see Hunter everyday in CF.

:eek:

flyer85
10-02-2006, 02:18 PM
Who plays CF in 2007 is really the big test of the off-season. Jr has thrown down the gauntlet in letting the Reds no he has zero interest in moving to another position. The ball is now in the Reds court.

BRM
10-02-2006, 02:24 PM
:eek:

What? Torii Hunter has a hard time avoiding outs and his range has been declining. You think Reds fans will love that? I don't.

HumnHilghtFreel
10-02-2006, 02:26 PM
I think Reds fans might be awfully disappointed if they see Hunter everyday in CF.

I tend to agree. He's a very good player, but I don't think he's the savior a lot of people see him as. Definitely an upgrade defensively though, but he'll likely be expensive to sign.

dunner13
10-02-2006, 02:31 PM
Hes a former twin, veteran team player, who plays hard. Sounds like exactly what krivsky and narron want. If junior will accept a move to LF, and I think he will when the team tells him there replacing him with hunter, then we could have an OF of Griffey -LF Hunter -CF and dunn in RF.

BRM
10-02-2006, 02:31 PM
I tend to agree. He's a very good player, but I don't think he's the savior a lot of people see him as. Definitely an upgrade defensively though, but he'll likely be expensive to sign.

Well, nearly anything would be an upgrade defensively. I'd rather the Reds went younger and cheaper personally...if that's possible.

Heath
10-02-2006, 02:33 PM
Two players .OPS -

Player A .856
Player B .826

Player A is Adam Dunn
Player B is Torii Hunter

Heath
10-02-2006, 02:34 PM
....then we could have an OF of Griffey -LF Hunter -CF and dunn in RF.

:eek:

BRM
10-02-2006, 02:35 PM
I can see Wayne pursuing Torii Hunter. I hope he doesn't but I can see him doing it.

Falls City Beer
10-02-2006, 02:37 PM
I'd be alright with Hunter if he were only here for a year, maybe two. But won't the Reds have to pony up to get him for several years? No thanks, if that's the case.

BRM
10-02-2006, 02:39 PM
I'd be alright with Hunter if he were only here for a year, maybe two. But won't the Reds have to pony up to get him for several years? No thanks, if that's the case.

I don't think he'd come cheap on a short term deal either. Is he even a free agent this winter?

Falls City Beer
10-02-2006, 02:41 PM
I don't think he'd come cheap on a short term deal either. Is he even a free agent this winter?

I think so. In which case, no thanks. I'll take Deno.

BRM
10-02-2006, 02:45 PM
I think so. In which case, no thanks. I'll take Deno.

Deno would likely provide the same defense, maybe better but with less power.

TRF
10-02-2006, 02:49 PM
Padilla is a free agent, so we should just sign him. Dunn to the A's for Rich Harden.

Rich Harden is the AL version of Mark Prior.

Fantastic pitchers.

Cannot stay healthy.

dunner13
10-02-2006, 02:57 PM
Harden does have problems staying healthy, but he does have awesome stuff. When he does stay healthy for a full season we will wish we had traded dunn or anyone else for him.

SeeinRed
10-02-2006, 03:28 PM
Harden does have problems staying healthy, but he does have awesome stuff. When he does stay healthy for a full season we will wish we had traded dunn or anyone else for him.

Change When he does stay healthy to IF he stays healty and your statement might be closer to reality. You also have to take into consideration that pitchers with good stuff that get injured don't always come back with the same good stuff they had before. Then there is the whole mental part of the game and the mechanics and so on. Long story short, its better to stay away from injury prone pitchers. Especially when they are counted on to carry a large load for the team as Harden, or any pitcher brought in would be.

vaticanplum
10-02-2006, 03:29 PM
My friends and I once tossed around the possibility of "Harden's Oblique" as a band name.

Anywho. Carry on.

Blitz Dorsey
10-02-2006, 04:25 PM
There is a better chance of Billy Beane quitting his current job to become a McDonalds manager than there is of him trading Rich Harden to us for Dunn.

lollipopcurve
10-02-2006, 04:38 PM
I fear something like Dunn for Kentucky Joe Blanton and Justin Duchscherer.

Hoosier Red
10-02-2006, 04:41 PM
I didn't want to post this as it's own thread, but rather attach it to one of the plethora of Dunn trades threads.

Obviously if we had traded Dunn for Arroyo this past off season there would have been riots, but lets' give Krivsky the benefit of the doubt and say he projected what Arroyo was going to be this year.

Would you trade Dunn for an Arroyo clone? I don't know what pitchers you would project to have an Arroyo like year, but if I could get the same production from a pitcher like we got for Arroyo this year, I'd trade Dunn for him in an instant.

HBP
10-02-2006, 04:45 PM
I think Wayne will make a run at Hunter, but he'll be smart about it. It'll take at least a three year deal to get him here. No, he wouldn't be the savior to this team, but he would be a positive addition with at least a .800 OPS with a great glove and solid range in CF. It's possible that Bob C would open up his wallet a little more, so $ may be less of an issue.

If possible, it would be great if that type of money were spent on a #1 or #2 SP, but those probably won't be available, and if they are, will cost crazy amounts of green.

Falls City Beer
10-02-2006, 05:53 PM
If possible, it would be great if that type of money were spent on a #1 or #2 SP, but those probably won't be available, and if they are, will cost crazy amounts of green.

Then you spend crazy amounts of green.

Mind you, I would make sure I've done my homework on any free agent, and go for the younger ones, but I'd shell out some cash for an arm. It's better spent there than Torii bleepin' Hunter.

OnBaseMachine
10-02-2006, 06:28 PM
I would rather have Mike Cameron (who is also a FA) than Torii Hunter.

RedsManRick
10-02-2006, 06:49 PM
I would rather have Mike Cameron (who is also a FA) than Torii Hunter.

You should listen to TC's podcast for a comment on Cameron...

Anyways, with the Twins in the playoffs ($$), Hunter wanting to return, Hunter being a primary draw, and inability to replace Hunter in CF, most people expect the Twins to excercise his option.

reds44
10-02-2006, 07:19 PM
I was listening to yesterdays game when Special K was in the booth with Marty and Marty asked him point blank if Juniro and Dunn would be back next season...he never answered the question...only saying "We'd have to get a heck of a lot to replace their numbers..."

I love Krivsky as the GM of this team and I am so stinking excited to see what he can do to improve this team with a full offseason.
Yeah but was "a heck of alot" in his opinon?

Three relievers instead of two?

;)

WVRedsFan
10-02-2006, 07:31 PM
The Krivsky philosophy: Pitching and defense. Moving the runner along. Hitting behind the runner. You get the picture.

Thus, he will deal a relative bargain, Adam Dunn, for another pitcher who will improve the club slightly, but lose the team leader in runs scored and 92 RBI's. Who will replace those?

Krivsky will attempt to trade Ken Griffey, Jr. for anything. He will assemble a club that resembles his beloved Twins.

Acquiring Torii Hunter will be a mistake of Miltonesque caliber. Hunter makes in excess of $10 million this year and it will take more to get him to Cincinnati. He's slowed a step. He goes through horrendous slumps at times. Can you imagine RedsZone with him around?

He'd better have a bang-up winter, but you can bet that he'll change this club into his kind of club. I just hope he's a better judge of pitching talent than he showed in mid-season this year. If not, losing 160 RBI's will mean the pitchers he acquires for Dunn and Griffey will have to post 2.50 ERA's. With GAB the home field, that will require pitchers we cannot afford.

SeeinRed
10-02-2006, 07:40 PM
I would rather have Mike Cameron (who is also a FA) than Torii Hunter.

But if Cameron and Griffey were in the same outfield, wouldn't that rip a hole in the universe or something? Its like using my easy button to find your easy button.;)

Caseyfan21
10-02-2006, 07:50 PM
The Krivsky philosophy: Pitching and defense. Moving the runner along. Hitting behind the runner. You get the picture.

He will assemble a club that resembles his beloved Twins.

Acquiring Torii Hunter will be a mistake of Miltonesque caliber.

I agree with Hunter being a mistake. He tends to go through mammoth hot and cold streaks. So his numbers are a bit deceiving. I found that out the hard way during fantasy baseball this year when he struggled mightily half the year.

As for those first two statements, if that was his philosophy and a team of that caliber is his final product I would absolutely thrilled. People tend to like the big homeruns and offense, but a team of solid defenders and excellent pitching can play .500 ball just as well as the team this year. Granted that would take significant upgrades to the current staff.

vaticanplum
10-02-2006, 08:08 PM
The Krivsky philosophy: Pitching and defense. Moving the runner along. Hitting behind the runner. You get the picture.

Thus, he will deal a relative bargain, Adam Dunn, for another pitcher who will improve the club slightly, but lose the team leader in runs scored and 92 RBI's. Who will replace those?

Krivsky will attempt to trade Ken Griffey, Jr. for anything. He will assemble a club that resembles his beloved Twins.

Acquiring Torii Hunter will be a mistake of Miltonesque caliber. Hunter makes in excess of $10 million this year and it will take more to get him to Cincinnati. He's slowed a step. He goes through horrendous slumps at times. Can you imagine RedsZone with him around?

He'd better have a bang-up winter, but you can bet that he'll change this club into his kind of club. I just hope he's a better judge of pitching talent than he showed in mid-season this year. If not, losing 160 RBI's will mean the pitchers he acquires for Dunn and Griffey will have to post 2.50 ERA's. With GAB the home field, that will require pitchers we cannot afford.

I'm going to ask something genuinely. I have my problems with Krivsky and I think that The Trade negates all of the good moves (and I think the majority of the rest of his moves were good or at least negligible). I do not know what he will do in the offseason.

But I want to know why there is such a strong sentiment on this board that he will make any of the moves you listed. Namely:

1. Why do so many people think he will make all of his moves along the same line as The Trade (one of many, albeit by far the worst); and
2. Why are so many people convinced that he will be trading Dunn?

My feelings on these two things are as follows:

1. That was a bad move. Krivsky gave up too much and got too little. I have my suspicions that he was under the gun to get relief pitching at any cost and felt enormous outside pressure to do it; nevertheless, he did it, and he's responsible. I would even go so far as to say that Krivsky has absolutely proven himself to be a GM who will act on his self-proclaimed philosophy, pitching and defense.

But it didn't work. In no way did this trade work. The new bullpen was bad, and Krivsky himself had to scramble for other relievers to make up for it. And the offensive loss hit the team hard. Even if the Washington relievers improve next season (and I think there's a good chance they might), the trade still did not work.

So my question is: if it's so obvious that it didn't work, why is everyone so convinced that Krivsky is not going to learn from it? It was his second really major move as a general manager. He's taken a ton of heat for it. Rather than turning around and making similar moves, if anything, don't people think he will be more gun-shy about making moves like this in the future?

2. We lost a lot of offense this year. We have some promising youngsters, but none are truly consistent hitters yet, and Griffey's getting old. No matter how anyone feels about Dunn, there is no denying that he is the offensive heart of this team. And right now, this team needs him more than ever, which was demonstrated by how the team suffered a) without Kearns and Lopez, and b) when Dunn slumped. Pitching and defense are all well and good, I'm a big fan myself, but I've never seen even the most pitching/defense-happy GM attempt to win ballgames with no offense at all.

I've never heard Krivsky criticize Dunn. I've no indication so far that Krivsky is a rash GM who rids himself of players due to a slump. Krivsky signed Dunn almost the second he got in office. Certainly I think he would trade him if some great pitching deal came along or something, and I would hope he'd know even then that he'd have a huge offensive hole to fill (this is exactly what he said when Marty asked him about trading Dunn and Junior yesterday). But some people here seem absolutely convinced that he's dying to get rid of Dunn first chance he gets. I'm asking genuinely: why? What signs have we seen of this? Have I missed them? Or is it possible that we're projecting onto Krivsky something that he himself has not proclaimed at all?

I've never heard Krivsky mention Torii Hunter. Ever. Beyond that, I haven't even seen Hunter's name come up in rumors related to the Reds.

I haven't seen any indication that Krivsky is a stupid enough man to model his ballclub after his "beloved Twins" at any cost. I've never really heard him even talk about the Twins, except the usual I-worked-there-I-learned-a-lot talk. Frankly, some of the Twins' philosophies over the past few years could benefit this club, one with a similar payroll, greatly. I'd kill for a pitching staff as young, cheap and good as theirs has been. Other aspects of Twins' management would not work well here, because the Cincinnati ballclub looked too different from the Twins when Wayne came in, and still does despite the offensive losses it's suffered. The Twins didn't have an Adam Dunn, for one thing. If Krivsky was so eager to start building Twins II, he would have rid himself of Adam Dunn. At any moment he can call up a dozen ballclubs and get himself some pitching. The fact that he hasn't means he either wants to keep him or he hasn't been able to hit on a pitching return yet that he deems worthwhile. So even if he intends to build a heavily pitching/defense-centric ballclub -- and I think he does -- he recognizes the strength of what he has right now.

So I really believe I may be missing something here. Everything I just said seems like simple logic to me, and I am hardly the world's most logical person, so there's no way that I'm picking up on obvious things that GM Wayne Krivsky is not. But so many people seem so determined that these things are going to happen, so I want to know what words or actions I may have missed that have made so many of you feel this way.

savafan
10-02-2006, 08:35 PM
why not Freel in center?

reds44
10-02-2006, 08:42 PM
why not Freel in center?
Because he can't play everyday?

savafan
10-02-2006, 08:44 PM
Because he can't play everyday?

Who can? :)

HBP
10-02-2006, 09:02 PM
I've never heard Krivsky criticize Dunn. I've no indication so far that Krivsky is a rash GM who rids himself of players due to a slump. Krivsky signed Dunn almost the second he got in office. Certainly I think he would trade him if some great pitching deal came along or something, and I would hope he'd know even then that he'd have a huge offensive hole to fill (this is exactly what he said when Marty asked him about trading Dunn and Junior yesterday). But some people here seem absolutely convinced that he's dying to get rid of Dunn first chance he gets. I'm asking genuinely: why? What signs have we seen of this? Have I missed them? Or is it possible that we're projecting onto Krivsky something that he himself has not proclaimed at all?

I've thought this myself when many people are predicting a Dunn deal. As some people have tried to explain, the way to make this team better is to add along with Adam Dunn. Yes he strikes out, yes he'll be a .240-.250 lifetime hitter, but when you lose him, you lose your team leader in HR, RBI, and R. Wayne is not a fool, he knows this. I'll personally be very surprised if Dunn is not with the Reds for a number of years.


I've never heard Krivsky mention Torii Hunter. Ever. Beyond that, I haven't even seen Hunter's name come up in rumors related to the Reds.


You have to think he'll be interested in him though. Although Hunter is 31, it's not like he's old. I don't see why some think signing Tori Hunter would be near as disasterous as Eric Milton. He's a name that Jr. would move to a corner OF for and would become the 3-4 best bat in the lineup (3rd if Aurilla's not back).

Falls City Beer
10-02-2006, 09:07 PM
But I want to know why there is such a strong sentiment on this board that he will make any of the moves you listed. Namely:

1. Why do so many people think he will make all of his moves along the same line as The Trade (one of many, albeit by far the worst); and
2. Why are so many people convinced that he will be trading Dunn?


I'm convinced of neither. And I'm sure even the "pessimists" realize that The Trade doesn't represent what Wayne is capable of on a good day. It's hard to establish patterns one way or another. But it's not as though one can't assume anything about his trades. I guess all I would argue is that if Wayne's made this mistake once, he's not incapable of making it again; it doesn't mean it will happen again, but even entertaining the possibility is bloodchilling, considering just how far one deal has set back this team.

I don't demand guarantees, but I'd prefer a GM who would never even contemplate the Kearns/Lopez for Stuff trade. And I honestly don't think that's too much to ask.

mth123
10-02-2006, 09:28 PM
I'm going to ask something genuinely. I have my problems with Krivsky and I think that The Trade negates all of the good moves (and I think the majority of the rest of his moves were good or at least negligible). I do not know what he will do in the offseason.

But I want to know why there is such a strong sentiment on this board that he will make any of the moves you listed. Namely:

1. Why do so many people think he will make all of his moves along the same line as The Trade (one of many, albeit by far the worst); and
2. Why are so many people convinced that he will be trading Dunn?

My feelings on these two things are as follows:

1. That was a bad move. Krivsky gave up too much and got too little. I have my suspicions that he was under the gun to get relief pitching at any cost and felt enormous outside pressure to do it; nevertheless, he did it, and he's responsible. I would even go so far as to say that Krivsky has absolutely proven himself to be a GM who will act on his self-proclaimed philosophy, pitching and defense.

But it didn't work. In no way did this trade work. The new bullpen was bad, and Krivsky himself had to scramble for other relievers to make up for it. And the offensive loss hit the team hard. Even if the Washington relievers improve next season (and I think there's a good chance they might), the trade still did not work.

So my question is: if it's so obvious that it didn't work, why is everyone so convinced that Krivsky is not going to learn from it? It was his second really major move as a general manager. He's taken a ton of heat for it. Rather than turning around and making similar moves, if anything, don't people think he will be more gun-shy about making moves like this in the future?

2. We lost a lot of offense this year. We have some promising youngsters, but none are truly consistent hitters yet, and Griffey's getting old. No matter how anyone feels about Dunn, there is no denying that he is the offensive heart of this team. And right now, this team needs him more than ever, which was demonstrated by how the team suffered a) without Kearns and Lopez, and b) when Dunn slumped. Pitching and defense are all well and good, I'm a big fan myself, but I've never seen even the most pitching/defense-happy GM attempt to win ballgames with no offense at all.

I've never heard Krivsky criticize Dunn. I've no indication so far that Krivsky is a rash GM who rids himself of players due to a slump. Krivsky signed Dunn almost the second he got in office. Certainly I think he would trade him if some great pitching deal came along or something, and I would hope he'd know even then that he'd have a huge offensive hole to fill (this is exactly what he said when Marty asked him about trading Dunn and Junior yesterday). But some people here seem absolutely convinced that he's dying to get rid of Dunn first chance he gets. I'm asking genuinely: why? What signs have we seen of this? Have I missed them? Or is it possible that we're projecting onto Krivsky something that he himself has not proclaimed at all?

I've never heard Krivsky mention Torii Hunter. Ever. Beyond that, I haven't even seen Hunter's name come up in rumors related to the Reds.

I haven't seen any indication that Krivsky is a stupid enough man to model his ballclub after his "beloved Twins" at any cost. I've never really heard him even talk about the Twins, except the usual I-worked-there-I-learned-a-lot talk. Frankly, some of the Twins' philosophies over the past few years could benefit this club, one with a similar payroll, greatly. I'd kill for a pitching staff as young, cheap and good as theirs has been. Other aspects of Twins' management would not work well here, because the Cincinnati ballclub looked too different from the Twins when Wayne came in, and still does despite the offensive losses it's suffered. The Twins didn't have an Adam Dunn, for one thing. If Krivsky was so eager to start building Twins II, he would have rid himself of Adam Dunn. At any moment he can call up a dozen ballclubs and get himself some pitching. The fact that he hasn't means he either wants to keep him or he hasn't been able to hit on a pitching return yet that he deems worthwhile. So even if he intends to build a heavily pitching/defense-centric ballclub -- and I think he does -- he recognizes the strength of what he has right now.

So I really believe I may be missing something here. Everything I just said seems like simple logic to me, and I am hardly the world's most logical person, so there's no way that I'm picking up on obvious things that GM Wayne Krivsky is not. But so many people seem so determined that these things are going to happen, so I want to know what words or actions I may have missed that have made so many of you feel this way.

I think this is a very logical post. I don't think the team can really afford to trade away any offense and I don't really think Dunn is going anywhere unless Krivsky is blown away. As for Hunter, there was a thread that listed him as a potential free agent (team option) the Reds needed RH Power after the Kearns trade, a CF with Defense (and he is a Twin) so many of us (myself included) started saying it was a move that should be made.

As of now it looks like Deno may be an answer in CF and Hunter probably won't be available anyway. After his huge 2nd half he'll either get his option exercised or be way too expensive. Krivsky can't mention Hunter w/o being accused of tampering so you woudn't hear that.

We will never know the whole story behind the trade but I believe WK outsmarted himself by trying to accomplish too many things in one deal. (Improve the bullpen for a run at the play-offs, Open RF for KG jr, improve defense in CF and SS, get young pitching for the future, add a couple of low cost replacement parts for next year.) It simply blew-up on him. (The pitching sucked, KG jr didn't move to RF, the SS was even worse than what he had, offense couldn't withstand the hit.) Again, this is just my opinion, but it looks to me like WK got so caught-up in accomplishing all these goals that he didn't pay enough the the actual talent being exchanged in the heat of the race. Not to speak for anyone but it sounds like many on here see this as a bad sign that he may sell his top talent for lesser talent in an attempt to achieve a plan.

BTW, Rotoworld mentioned the other day that SD will probably exercise the option on Cameron so he probably isn't available either. No other CF free agents are really any better than Deno IMO. Deno will be a lot cheaper.

jnwohio
10-02-2006, 10:00 PM
One of the more definite things Krivsky said that I haven't seen mentioned here was that he really liked Brandon Phillips at 2B and was inclined to go out and look for a shortstop as opposed to moving Phillips over to SS.

Seems to me that also might be saying a lot about whether Aurilia will be coming back since he supposedly wants a shot a regular position and the option best for him and the team would seem to be at 2B.

Krivsky did hedge just a bit on Phillips saying that it was good to have the fallback of moving to him to SS and nice to have that choice and option of being able to go either way with him.

Nonetheless with Krivsky and Narron sounding in total ageement about Phillips. So much for just moving Brandon over to SS and dropping Aurilia or Freel in at 2B. It looks like obtaining a SS is going to be a higher priority than most seemed to think.

TeamBoone
10-02-2006, 10:08 PM
if that was his philosophy and a team of that caliber is his final product I would absolutely thrilled.

According to his conversation with Marty, that is his philosophy.

mth123
10-02-2006, 10:21 PM
One of the more definite things Krivsky said that I haven't seen mentioned here was that he really liked Brandon Phillips at 2B and was inclined to go out and look for a shortstop as opposed to moving Phillips over to SS.

Seems to me that also might be saying a lot about whether Aurilia will be coming back since he supposedly wants a shot a regular position and the option best for him and the team would seem to be at 2B.

Krivsky did hedge just a bit on Phillips saying that it was good to have the fallback of moving to him to SS and nice to have that choice and option of being able to go either way with him.

Nonetheless with Krivsky and Narron sounding in total ageement about Phillips. So much for just moving Brandon over to SS and dropping Aurilia or Freel in at 2B. It looks like obtaining a SS is going to be a higher priority than most seemed to think.

I heard this too. The problem is that there are a number of passable 2B guys available and one could probably be had for cheap. The only really solid SS out there is Lugo and he'll probably cost a lot. I hope the reds get a solid player who is a guy who can reliably be projected to plus numbers on Offense and defense. They have an awful lot of question marks everywhere else.

Natty Redlocks
10-02-2006, 11:00 PM
1. Why do so many people think he will make all of his moves along the same line as The Trade (one of many, albeit by far the worst); and
2. Why are so many people convinced that he will be trading Dunn?



1. I believe he has a plan, and that plan flows from a principle: that pitching and solid fundamentals are more important than offense. Both the Nats trade and the Pena-for-Arroyo trade followed this principle, as did most of his moves all year. It's a safe bet that future moves are likely to follow the same principle. You talk about how people are projecting their own dislike for Dunn onto Krivsky. Tell me where you've heard him say that he regrets The Trade, or thinks that even if Bray and Majewski have great years next season, it'll still be a bad trade that didn't work. I've never heard him say that; I've just heard many many people talking about what a bad trade it was no matter what, and assuming that he feels the same way about it. Projecting their dislike for it onto Krivsky. I have no doubt he wishes Majewski had been healthy, but it's not safe to assume he's sorry he gave up Kearns and Lopez.

2. I'm convinced he will be trading Adam Dunn because the Reds can't afford to have an offense built around two expensive, unreliable big bats like Jr. and Dunn. This season was Dunn's chance to prove he's the kind of guy you can build an offense around, and he failed miserably. He's a great complementary bat for a large market team, but he's a luxury the Reds can't really afford. On top of that, he's not ideal defensively, he's a very poor situational hitter, and he's one of the only really valuable trade pieces Krivsky has available. The Reds have important positions they need to fill that the FA market isn't looking very promising for, but they can get a pretty good OF (or two) to replace Dunn there. It seems like an absolute no-brainer to me. I believe the reason Krivsky has never given any indication whatsoever that he doesn't like Dunn is that he wants to get as much as possible for him, which is also why he'd work an extension for him.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 12:00 AM
Tell me where you've heard him say that he regrets The Trade, or thinks that even if Bray and Majewski have great years next season, it'll still be a bad trade that didn't work.

He could never say that. And I'm not even saying he regrets it per se, but logic certainly says that it didn't improve the team in terms of pitching and that it hurt them in terms of offense. He may not miss Kearns and Lopez and their defensive shortcomings, but there's no possible way that he doesn't see the fall in numbers that their departure caused. It's all right there in the stats and the W/L column. It was exacerbated by some other slumps but it's pretty much undeniable.

The theory that you posit in the first point is interesting and I think it may have some merit. I don't think that every move he's made is geared toward pitching/defense/fundamentals (Ross comes to mind immediately, Phillips shortly thereafter), but certainly this seems like his philosophy. Still, I don't see any indication that is all he'll target in the offseason or in the future.


2. I'm convinced he will be trading Adam Dunn because the Reds can't afford to have an offense built around two expensive, unreliable big bats like Jr. and Dunn. This season was Dunn's chance to prove he's the kind of guy you can build an offense around, and he failed miserably. He's a great complementary bat for a large market team, but he's a luxury the Reds can't really afford. On top of that, he's not ideal defensively, he's a very poor situational hitter, and he's one of the only really valuable trade pieces Krivsky has available. The Reds have important positions they need to fill that the FA market isn't looking very promising for, but they can get a pretty good OF (or two) to replace Dunn there. It seems like an absolute no-brainer to me. I believe the reason Krivsky has never given any indication whatsoever that he doesn't like Dunn is that he wants to get as much as possible for him, which is also why he'd work an extension for him.

Now this sounds like projection/speculation to me. There are a lot of opinions in there ("...the Reds can't afford to have an offense built around two expensive, unreliable big bats like Jr. and Dunn. This season was Dunn's chance to prove he's the kind of guy you can build an offense around, and he failed miserably. He's a great complementary bat for a large market team, but he's a luxury the Reds can't really afford.") that I've heard nothing of from Krivsky. It's educated speculation with merit, but it's still speculation.

WVRedsFan
10-03-2006, 01:17 AM
1. Why do so many people think he will make all of his moves along the same line as The Trade (one of many, albeit by far the worst); and
2. Why are so many people convinced that he will be trading Dunn?

1. To me, he proved one thing with The Trade. He values pitching and defense (remember the old "Clayton is a defensive wizard" statement made by everyone and implied by Krivsky? And his comment that Chris Denorfia "was ready to start and replace Karns' numbers," and isn't a good judge of baseball talent. He may prove otherwise later on, but for now, I prefer to think he got lucky with Phillips and Ross. There is no other proof right now.

2. He will trade Dunn because: (a) Dunn is in demand, (b) Dunn will bring pitching and maybe defense, and (c) Wayne Krivsky obviously thinks, along with his manager that you can save enough runs with defense and pitching to offset any offensive powress. He forgets that his team plays in GAB.


if it's so obvious that it didn't work, why is everyone so convinced that Krivsky is not going to learn from it? It was his second really major move as a general manager. He's taken a ton of heat for it. Rather than turning around and making similar moves, if anything, don't people think he will be more gun-shy about making moves like this in the future?

I still feel he and everyone in Redsland is in denial. Lopez and Kearns were cancers in the clubhouse. It was good to let them go and they didn't do much anyway. Kearns was lazy and Lopez wasn't a good fielder, but these two guys (Magic and Bray) were going to pitch lights out and Clayton was the defensive bonus. Yeah, right.


2. We lost a lot of offense this year. We have some promising youngsters, but none are truly consistent hitters yet, and Griffey's getting old. No matter how anyone feels about Dunn, there is no denying that he is the offensive heart of this team. And right now, this team needs him more than ever, which was demonstrated by how the team suffered a) without Kearns and Lopez, and b) when Dunn slumped. Pitching and defense are all well and good, I'm a big fan myself, but I've never seen even the most pitching/defense-happy GM attempt to win ballgames with no offense at all.

I've heard baseball people forever talk about defense and how much it saves you in games. And I suppose it's true. In fact, i know it's true, but you must have credible pitching to reap those rewards. Until the pitching in Cincinnati is up to snuff, pitching and defense isn't worth a warm pitcher of spit (thank you, Sam Rayburn). But you have to score runs and with our pitching, even with Special K's Marvelous Moves, is way below average. Yet, he will continue to move this team in the direction of pitching and defense. If he knew sqwat, he'd blow this thing up (like RFS 62 said) and start over. Our team in its present configuration, needs to score lots of runs.


But some people here seem absolutely convinced that he's dying to get rid of Dunn first chance he gets. I'm asking genuinely: why? What signs have we seen of this? Have I missed them? Or is it possible that we're projecting onto Krivsky something that he himself has not proclaimed at all?

All we've got to go on is what he's done and what his manager (who he adores) has said. The little things, the veteran presence, and the need to play the game the right way, are all coded to mean that Adam Dunn is gone. Adam Dunn does big things, he ain't no veteran and he's the opposite of moving the runner over and all that.


I've never heard Krivsky mention Torii Hunter. Ever. Beyond that, I haven't even seen Hunter's name come up in rumors related to the Reds.

No, but he has a fondness for former Twins. Lohse, EDEddie, the list goes on and on. If the Twins let Torii go, expect to see him in a Reds non-sleevless uniform in 2007.


If Krivsky was so eager to start building Twins II, he would have rid himself of Adam Dunn. At any moment he can call up a dozen ballclubs and get himself some pitching. The fact that he hasn't means he either wants to keep him or he hasn't been able to hit on a pitching return yet that he deems worthwhile. So even if he intends to build a heavily pitching/defense-centric ballclub -- and I think he does -- he recognizes the strength of what he has right now.

He came into town and wanted to undo some of what the last failure (DanO) had done, so he offered Dunn. then he got to watch him play for a season. Adam Dunn is the direct opposite of his philosophy. He will rid himself of Dunn sooner or later. Hide and watch.

I really have hope that Wayne Krivsky will build this club into a contender, but from all indication from his first season on the job, he's made so many errors I can't believe he will. After a couple of brilliant moves, he exended Jerry Narron for two years before he even had a full season as manager under his belt. He brought in a variety of pitchers who had failed everywhere and hoped it would work (and this without a pitching coach to help). He made The Trade. That's enough for me.

Cross your fingers and tighten your seatbelts, gang. This winter will make or break Mr. Krivsky, at least in my eyes. Every new guy has footfalls, and he's had his mulligan. I hope and pray, he had a larger plan that we don't know about and he's right on schedule. If not, we've got a problem.

Ltlabner
10-03-2006, 08:12 AM
All we've got to go on is what he's done and what his manager (who he adores) has said. The little things, the veteran presence, and the need to play the game the right way, are all coded to mean that Adam Dunn is gone.

No, but he has a fondness for former Twins. Lohse, EDEddie, the list goes on and on. If the Twins let Torii go, expect to see him in a Reds non-sleevless uniform in 2007.

Cross your fingers and tighten your seatbelts, gang. This winter will make or break Mr. Krivsky, at least in my eyes.

If the veteran presence comments and secret coded messages mean that Dunn is gone, does that mean that EE, Ross, Philips, Deno and Freel are all "gone" too? I ask because they are either not vets or have defensive issues of one shape or size (in some cases both).

Yet he's kept these players around despite them not fitting the handy throw away lines that are so popular to snear at (vet scrappyness, pitching and defense....). To me, that seems to poke holes in your logic that Dunn is gone only because Krivsky only wants old players who play the game the right way.

That's not to say he wouldn't trade him if he felt the return was worthwhile (which is a whole nother argument) but to say that your "proof" that Dunn will be traded is because of the scrappy vet, plays the game the right way message it falls short of being anything other than wild speculation.

So the list goes "on and on" for former twins Krivsky has brought to town. Let me see....Castro's one. Who are the rest of this "on and on" list of ex-Twins he's brought to town that is proof that Hunter will most definatley be a Red next year?

REDREAD
10-03-2006, 09:15 AM
Well, nearly anything would be an upgrade defensively. I'd rather the Reds went younger and cheaper personally...if that's possible.

I think we've been spoiled with Eric Davis, Cameron, and Jr.

Right now, Tori Hunter is a fine player. Of course, maybe in the next 2-3 years he'll decline, but right now, he's a great player, IMO.

Not saying it's a no brainer to sign him, but it's hard to get a CF that can hit and field exceptionally well. It's extremely difficult to pry a young/cheap CF of that level away from team. Probably just as hard as acquiring a young ace pitcher.. teams that got them don't want to trade them.

REDREAD
10-03-2006, 09:20 AM
Then you spend crazy amounts of green.

Mind you, I would make sure I've done my homework on any free agent, and go for the younger ones, but I'd shell out some cash for an arm. It's better spent there than Torii bleepin' Hunter.

But to play devil's advocate, if you get a good defensive CF, that helps every pitcher on the team. If you get one that can hit, it helps the anemic offense.
Maybe Hunter isn't that player, but he's a lot closer to that player than Deno.
Also, if you get an established "name" CF, it's a lot easier to move Jr to the corner.

Reality is that we aren't going to be able to sign Zito or Schmidt... Obviously, we aren't going to trump the Mets offer by 5-10 million/year, which is probably what it would take.

REDREAD
10-03-2006, 09:24 AM
2. Why are so many people convinced that he will be trading Dunn?
.

Because other than Dunn, Homer, and EdE, the cupboard is bare. The latter two are cheap, so it makes sense to hold them.

It seems like Wayne wants to continue to remold this team. The only way he can get an impact player is to trade Dunn.

All my speculation/opinion, of course.

SultanOfSwing
10-03-2006, 09:45 AM
But to play devil's advocate, if you get a good defensive CF, that helps every pitcher on the team. If you get one that can hit, it helps the anemic offense.
Maybe Hunter isn't that player, but he's a lot closer to that player than Deno.
Also, if you get an established "name" CF, it's a lot easier to move Jr to the corner.

Reality is that we aren't going to be able to sign Zito or Schmidt... Obviously, we aren't going to trump the Mets offer by 5-10 million/year, which is probably what it would take.
SI and the New York papers reported that neither the Mets or Yankees have any interest in signing Zito. Just, FYI.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 11:14 AM
If the veteran presence comments and secret coded messages mean that Dunn is gone, does that mean that EE, Ross, Philips, Deno and Freel are all "gone" too? I ask because they are either not vets or have defensive issues of one shape or size (in some cases both).

Yet he's kept these players around despite them not fitting the handy throw away lines that are so popular to snear at (vet scrappyness, pitching and defense....). To me, that seems to poke holes in your logic that Dunn is gone only because Krivsky only wants old players who play the game the right way.

Not to mention the fact that I can't think of any scrappy vets Wayne has acquired apart from Clayton and Castro (and while vets, the "scrappy" here is questionable, especially with the former). Look at the rest of his major transactions: Arroyo, Ross, Phillips, Schoenweis, Bray, Majewski...all young and not overly scrappy. Schoenweis is the only one on this list who's over 30. You could make a case for Guardado in the vet category, but that was a smart move.

From Redread:

Because other than Dunn, Homer, and EdE, the cupboard is bare. The latter two are cheap, so it makes sense to hold them.

It seems like Wayne wants to continue to remold this team. The only way he can get an impact player is to trade Dunn.

All my speculation/opinion, of course.

Now this seems like as sound an argument as any to me.

Heath
10-03-2006, 11:15 AM
SI and the New York papers reported that neither the Mets or Yankees have any interest in signing Zito. Just, FYI.

I think the Padres want to talk to Zito.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 11:18 AM
I think the Padres want to talk to Zito.

So do I.

WVRedsFan
10-04-2006, 11:46 AM
If the veteran presence comments and secret coded messages mean that Dunn is gone, does that mean that EE, Ross, Philips, Deno and Freel are all "gone" too? I ask because they are either not vets or have defensive issues of one shape or size (in some cases both).

Yet he's kept these players around despite them not fitting the handy throw away lines that are so popular to snear at (vet scrappyness, pitching and defense....). To me, that seems to poke holes in your logic that Dunn is gone only because Krivsky only wants old players who play the game the right way.

That's not to say he wouldn't trade him if he felt the return was worthwhile (which is a whole nother argument) but to say that your "proof" that Dunn will be traded is because of the scrappy vet, plays the game the right way message it falls short of being anything other than wild speculation.

So the list goes "on and on" for former twins Krivsky has brought to town. Let me see....Castro's one. Who are the rest of this "on and on" list of ex-Twins he's brought to town that is proof that Hunter will most definatley be a Red next year?

Of course it's just speculation. That's what we do here since none of us really have a clue on what he'll do. I'm basing my opinions on his past actions. I listed the former Twins I could think of, but my "list goes on and on" comment was because I know there were others (at least I think so).

I guess the point I was trying to make was that Krivsky sees the Reds in a whole different light than most of us and most of the public have ever seen them before. It's up to the fans to decide if it's the right direction (and Robert Cast, btw).

My post was really a therapy piece for me. I want to believe that Krivsky will mold this club into a perpetual winner, but I have doubts. To tell you the truth all fans except those who blindly follow any leader anywhere have the same doubts. I just express them here. If I happen to be wrong, I'll admit that in public.

SteelSD
10-04-2006, 11:59 AM
I listed the former Twins I could think of, but my "list goes on and on" comment was because I know there were others (at least I think so).

Juan Castro
Kyle Lohse
Eddie Guardado
Joe Mays
Quinton McCracken

redsupport
10-04-2006, 12:02 PM
Do you think he would like former twin Tom Hall?

Falls City Beer
10-04-2006, 12:40 PM
Juan Castro
Kyle Lohse
Eddie Guardado
Joe Mays
Quinton McCracken

It's not the "former Twins" part that bothers me; it's the "former BAD Twins" part that does.

klw
10-04-2006, 12:46 PM
It's not the "former Twins" part that bothers me; it's the "former BAD Twins" part that does.


We also must avoid "Former Cubs." They are cursed.

TeamBoone
10-04-2006, 01:13 PM
I think "former" is the key word; not all those players were obtained fromthe Twins directly, but rather former Twins via other teams.