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WVRed
10-02-2006, 06:45 PM
Third school shooting in less than a week. I didnt know if this counted as Peanut Gallery material, but there is no punishment severe enough for a guy like this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting;_ylt=AoRMpsGWXbR0IrazhCiQRTB L.IcA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl



NICKEL MINES, Pa. - A milk-truck driver carrying three guns and a grudge stormed a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday, sent the boys and adults outside, barricaded the doors with two-by-fours, and then opened fire on a dozen girls, killing three of them before committing suicide.
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Eight other victims were critically wounded, state police said.

It was the nation's third deadly school shooting in less than a week, and it sent shock waves through Lancaster County's bucolic Amish country, a picturesque landscape of horse-drawn buggies, green pastures and neat-as-a-pin farms, where violent crime is virtually nonexistent.

Most of the victims had been shot, execution-style, at point-blank range, after being lined up along the chalkboard, their feet bound with wire and plastic ties, authorities said.

"This is a horrendous, horrific incident for the Amish community. They're solid citizens in the community. They're good people. They don't deserve ... no one deserves this," State Police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller said.

The attack bore similarities to a deadly school shooting last week in Bailey, Colo., and authorities there raised the possibility that the Pennsylvania attack was a copycat crime.

The gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, a 31-year-old truck driver from the nearby town of Bart, was bent on killing young girls as a way of "acting out in revenge for something that happened 20 years ago," Miller said. Miller gave no details on what the grudge was.

Roberts was not Amish and appeared to have nothing against the Amish community, Miller said. Instead, Miller said, he apparently picked the school because it was close by, there were girls there, and it had little or no security.

Miller said Roberts was apparently preparing for a long siege, arming himself with a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, a 12-gauge shotgun and a rifle, along with a bag of about 600 rounds of ammunition, two cans of smokeless powder, two knives and a stun gun on his belt. He also had rolls of tape, various tools and a change of clothes.

Roberts had left several rambling notes to his wife and three children that Miller said were "along the lines of suicide notes." The gunman also called his wife during the siege by cell phone to tell her he was getting even for some long-ago offense, according to Miller.

From the suicide notes and telephone calls, it was clear Roberts was "angry at life, he was angry at God," Miller said. And it was clear from interviews with his co-workers at the dairy that his mood had darkened in recent days and he had stopped chatting and joking around with fellow employees and customers, the officer said.

Miller said that Roberts had been scheduled to take a random drug test on Monday. But the officer said it was not clear what role that may have played in the attack.

Miller said investigators were looking into the possibility the attack may have been related to the death of one of Roberts' own children. According to an obituary, Roberts and his wife, Marie, lost a daughter shortly after she was born in 1997.

As rescue workers and investigators tromped over the surrounding farmland, looking for evidence around this tiny village about 55 miles west of Philadelphia, dozens of people in traditional plain Amish clothing watched the men in light-colored shirts, dark pants and broad-brimmed straw farmer's hats, the women in bonnets and long dark dresses.

Reporters were kept away from the school after the shooting, and the Amish were reluctant to speak with the media, as is their custom.

The victims were members of the Old Order Amish. Lancaster County is home to some 20,000 Old Order Amish, who eschew automobiles, electricity, computers, fancy clothes and most other modern conveniences, live among their own people, and typically speak a German dialect known as Pennsylvania Dutch.

Bob Allen, a clerk at a bookstore in the Amish country tourist town of Intercourse, said residents see the area as being safe and the Amish as peaceful people. "It just goes to show there's no safe place. There's really no such thing," he said.

The shooting took place at the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School, a neat white building set amid green fields, with a square white horse fence around the schoolyard. The school had about 25 to 30 students, ages 6 to 13.

According to investigators, Roberts walked his children to the school bus stop, then backed his truck up to the Amish school, unloaded his weapons and several pieces of lumber, and walked in around 10 a.m. He released about 15 boys, a pregnant woman and three women with babies, Miller said.

He barricaded the doors with two-by-fours two-by-sixes nailed into place, piled-up desks and flexible plastic ties, made the remaining girls line up along a blackboard, and tied their feet together with wire ties and flexible plastic ties, Miller said.

The teacher and another adult at the school fled to a farmhouse nearby, and someone there called 911 to report a gunman holding students hostage.

Roberts apparently called his wife around 11 a.m., saying he was taking revenge for an old grudge, Miller said. Moments later, Roberts told a dispatcher he would open fire on the children if police didn't back away from the building. Within seconds, troopers heard gunfire. They smashed the windows to get inside, and found his body.

Miller said he had no immediate evidence that the victims were sexually assaulted.

Killed were two students, and a female teacher's aide who was 15 or 16 years old, authorities said.

"Very, very traumatic situation. Some of my troopers, actually one of the girls died in the arms of one of our troopers," Miller said.

No one answered the door at Roberts' small, one-story home on Tuesday afternoon. Children's toys were strewn on the porch and in the yard.

A family spokesman, Dwight LeFever, read a short statement from Roberts' wife that said, in part, "Our hearts are broken, our lives are shattered, and we grieve for the innocence and lives that were lost today. Above all, please pray for the families who lost children and please pray too for our family and children."

The shootings were disturbingly similar to an attack last week at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo., where a man singled out several girls as hostages in a school classroom and then killed one of them and himself. Authorities said the man in Colorado sexually molested the girls.

"If this is some kind of a copycat, it's horrible and of concern to everybody, all law enforcement," said Monte Gore, undersheriff of Park County, Colo. "On behalf of Park County and our citizens and our sheriff's office, our hearts go out to that school and the community."

William Pollack, an expert in school violence at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Mass., and a psychology professor at the Harvard Medical School, said the Pennsylvania attack probably wasn't a copycat crime. Instead, Roberts probably had a grudge against women or girls that had been building for months or years, and he was spurred to act by the Colorado shootings.

"Seeing someone else enact it, certainly that would open up the gates," Pollack said.

On Friday, a school principal was shot to death in Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student, described as upset over a reprimand, was charged with murder.

The Pennsylvania attack was the deadliest school shooting since a teenager went on a rampage last year on an Indian reservation in Red Lake, Minn., killing 10 people in all, including five students, a teacher, a security guard and himself.

Nationwide, the 1999 Columbine High School massacre in Littleton, Colo., remains the deadliest school shooting, with 15 dead, including the two teenage gunmen.

In Pennsylvania's insular Amish country, the outer world has intruded on occasion. In 1999, two Amish men were sent to jail for buying cocaine from a motorcycle gang and selling it to young people in their community.

There were four murders in Lancaster County in 2005, including the killings of a non-Amish couple were shot to death in their Lititz home in November by their daughter's 18-year-old boyfriend.

Kenneth Trump, president of the National School Safety and Security Services consulting firm in Cleveland, said the Colorado and Pennsylvania crimes underscore the lesson that no school is automatically safe from an attack.

"These incidents can happen to a one-classroom schoolhouse to a large urban school," he said. "The only thing that scares me more than an armed intruder in a school is school and safety officials who believe it can't happen here."

He said that belief is often stronger in rural, suburban and private schools.

"When you go to rural and private schools, the first obstacle you run into is the `It-can't-happen-here' mentality," he said. "People have the perception of we're not like whatever big city they're near."

cincinnati chili
10-03-2006, 12:15 AM
This is all kindsa messed up. Obviously it's horrible when any of these hostage/execution things happen, but what could possibly have happened 20 years ago to make him execute Amish girls?

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 12:39 AM
This is all kindsa messed up. Obviously it's horrible when any of these hostage/execution things happen, but what could possibly have happened 20 years ago to make him execute Amish girls?

From what little that has been released in the media, it sounds as if he was holding a grudge for something that happened 20 years ago (messed up indeed), but it wasn't related to or motivated by religion or the Amish. He chose the school because of its accesibility and lack of security.

It sounds like they have a good idea what the motivation is, but aren't releasing it until they've investigated a little more thoroughly.

RedFanAlways1966
10-03-2006, 08:13 AM
Just very sad. It makes me angry, but there is nothing that can be done. I feel so bad for those effected by this tragedy... including the kids of the murderer. Just very sad.

Blimpie
10-03-2006, 09:05 AM
Homeschooling the kids is starting to sound really good to me right now.

Chip R
10-03-2006, 09:35 AM
They said something similar happened in Colorado recently.

WVRed
10-03-2006, 03:16 PM
Homeschooling the kids is starting to sound really good to me right now.

I was homeschooled, and while it does have its "advantages"(most notably security), it also has its disadvantages(lack of a social life for the most part, although other activities could be filled in).

It is definitely not for everybody.

flyer85
10-03-2006, 03:23 PM
I am not sure there is anything you can ever do to protect yourself and your family completely from random acts of violence.

Cedric
10-03-2006, 03:40 PM
Homeschooling the kids is starting to sound really good to me right now.

The guy that killed these kids was homeschooled.

Blimpie
10-03-2006, 09:07 PM
The guy that killed these kids was homeschooled.Well, isn't that just ducky....

traderumor
10-03-2006, 10:29 PM
The guy that killed these kids was homeschooled.And that will be relevant the next time it is pointed out that a crazed killer went to parochial school or public school, or a military academy for that matter.

OldRightHander
10-03-2006, 10:48 PM
The guy that killed these kids was homeschooled.

He also had two legs, two arms, and I'll even bet that he had to shave on occasion.

Blimpie
10-04-2006, 08:55 AM
Guys, I don't think Cedric was trying to draw a correlation that implied:

people who are home schooled = homicidal pedophiles

I believe he was simply pointing out the dripping irony of my previous suggestion (post # 5). Because there have been a rash of school shootings lately, I mentioned (half seriously) that I should begin to home school my own kids in order to better manage their safety.

It is ironic, as Cedric pointed out, that this maniac was raised by two parents who cared enough about his own education and personal safety to have him home schooled. However, despite all of his parent's genuine efforts, he still grows up to become the homicidal pedophile monster that we have all witnessed this week.

Nobody here is saying that this guy became this monster BECAUSE he was home schooled. He was simply a life form gone bad.

RedsBaron
10-04-2006, 09:45 AM
He also had two arms.

The Second Amendment does give us the right to bear arms.

TeamCasey
10-04-2006, 10:55 AM
The Second Amendment does give us the right to bear arms.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbup:

WVRed
10-05-2006, 02:38 PM
I guess Westboro Baptist Church decided to be nice and not protest. Regardless, they did manage to show their ignorance on Hannity and Colmes.

http://www.foxnews.com/hannityandcolmes/index.html

Click on "Unspeakable Outrage"

vaticanplum
10-05-2006, 03:15 PM
I guess Westboro Baptist Church decided to be nice and not protest. Regardless, they did manage to show their ignorance on Hannity and Colmes.

http://www.foxnews.com/hannityandcolmes/index.html

Click on "Unspeakable Outrage"

That is one of the most absurd things I have ever seen in my life.

Chip R
10-05-2006, 03:53 PM
That is one of the most absurd things I have ever seen in my life.

Par for the course for that bunch of fanatics. :thumbdown

flyer85
10-05-2006, 04:55 PM
Par for the course for that bunch of fanatics. :thumbdownI read through that exchange. Unreal

Her last comment is telling - "Repent like the men of Nineveh".

and if they did I am sure she would respond just like Jonah did.

WVRed
10-05-2006, 05:10 PM
I honestly dont know how a person could believe the things that she said. I always believed that these people were just out for attention, and maybe they are, but to see people behave the way this "cult" does astounds me, especially given the circumstances of most of their appearances.

Alan Combs really surprised me by going after her as hard as he did. Sean Hannity's responses are pretty much typical.

Simply amazing.

flyer85
10-05-2006, 05:16 PM
I honestly dont know how a person could believe the things that she said. It's call hatred. Not really any different the Islamic Extremists and their death to the infidels.

GAC
10-05-2006, 08:38 PM
I guess Westboro Baptist Church decided to be nice and not protest. Regardless, they did manage to show their ignorance on Hannity and Colmes.

http://www.foxnews.com/hannityandcolmes/index.html

Click on "Unspeakable Outrage"

Did you see what one of the guys (name escapes me at the moment), who has a radio show and frequently appears on Fox did?

He asked them what it would take to prevent them from protesting at this Amish funeral - giving them air time (1 hr) on his radio show? They agreed, and even signed a contract.

He called it "making a deal with the devil"; but honored the deal and allowed them the air time on his radio show.

I guess the call-ins were something else.

Groups like this DEFINE what a cult is. Take a good look folks. ;)

WMR
10-05-2006, 08:49 PM
A State Supreme Court judge in KY recently overturned a law preventing picketing/demonstrations within 300 feet of a funeral on first amendment grounds.

The law was enacted to prevent these jackals from picketing the funerals of two soldiers who recently died in Iraq.

If they disturbed the funeral of a family member of mine... man, controlling myself would a tough thing to do. Of course, that's their biggest wish. They videotape everything and their wet-dream is to have someone attack them, I'm sure.

www.godhatesfags.com

flyer85
10-05-2006, 09:54 PM
He asked them what it would take to prevent them from protesting at this Amish funeral - giving them air time (1 hr) on his radio show? They agreed, and even signed a contract.
anything to keep from putting those parents through more anguish.

Honestly giving them a mouthpiece is no big deal because any discerning person will see their rhetoric for what it truly is.

RedsBaron
10-06-2006, 07:41 AM
"Twisted human being"; "Pathetic"; "Religious nut"--Hannity and Colmes were in full agreement on this person, and right.
Ricardo Cabesa is right--I very much doubt that the members of the Westboro Baptist "Chruch" would rejoice if the "men of Nineveh" repented-they want to see death and devastation.

GAC
10-06-2006, 08:33 AM
Honestly giving them a mouthpiece is no big deal because any discerning person will see their rhetoric for what it truly is.

And that is exactly how it came across too. Give them the exposure and let the people see them for who they are.

Blimpie
10-06-2006, 08:39 AM
And that is exactly how it came across too. Give them the exposure and let the people see them for who they are.Sunlight is still the greatest disinfectant...

RedFanAlways1966
10-06-2006, 08:44 AM
I used to get angry at Rev. Phelps and his family. But I have learned it is better to ignore them. They look for things like this to get attention and they are getting exactly what they want... attention. I'd rather that Hannity & Colmes ignore them rather than giving them the time of day. It is all about attention and not about God to these types.

Just like TV no longer shows idiots who run onto a sports playing field. The same needs to be done with Phelps and his idiotic family.

Chip R
10-06-2006, 09:46 AM
Just like TV no longer shows idiots who run onto a sports playing field.


What are you talking about? I see Jerry Narron on the field all the time. ;) Sorry. It was too easy. :p:

TRF
10-06-2006, 10:09 AM
anything to keep from putting those parents through more anguish.

Honestly giving them a mouthpiece is no big deal because any discerning person will see their rhetoric for what it truly is.

the problem is giving these people a voice allows the non-discerning members of society the opportunity to hear their barbaric rhetoric.

And that allows there numbers to grow.

The flip side is if they are ignored, and feel ignored they may try to do something a bit more extreme to get their point across.

We sometimes forget with all the hatred from the Middle East by select radical groups, that we have our own groups of madmen to deal with. These people are dangerous. It's only a matter of time before they make an Oklahoma City sized "demonstration".

Falls City Beer
10-06-2006, 11:28 AM
quote deleted

Why don't we address your last point in the Peanut Gallery, as it has crossed the line.

traderumor
10-06-2006, 12:13 PM
Why don't we address your last point in the Peanut Gallery, as it has crossed the line.
You're a moderator now?

paintmered
10-06-2006, 12:22 PM
Time to take it to the Peanut Gallery.

GAC
10-06-2006, 12:32 PM
I used to get angry at Rev. Phelps and his family. But I have learned it is better to ignore them. They look for things like this to get attention and they are getting exactly what they want... attention. I'd rather that Hannity & Colmes ignore them rather than giving them the time of day. It is all about attention and not about God to these types.

But think about it for a second..... what does getting ATTENTION achieve in this instance? Really. Their church membership, which is comprised of family, has been around 25 for how many years?

I guess to them, heaven is gonna be pretty empty.... "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:3) - and only 25 are gonna show up! ;)

Cedric
10-06-2006, 01:05 PM
Guys, I don't think Cedric was trying to draw a correlation that implied:

people who are home schooled = homicidal pedophiles

I believe he was simply pointing out the dripping irony of my previous suggestion (post # 5). Because there have been a rash of school shootings lately, I mentioned (half seriously) that I should begin to home school my own kids in order to better manage their safety.

It is ironic, as Cedric pointed out, that this maniac was raised by two parents who cared enough about his own education and personal safety to have him home schooled. However, despite all of his parent's genuine efforts, he still grows up to become the homicidal pedophile monster that we have all witnessed this week.

Nobody here is saying that this guy became this monster BECAUSE he was home schooled. He was simply a life form gone bad.

Thanks.

traderumor
10-06-2006, 06:54 PM
Hey, I really appreciate a mod deleting my post with no explanation (and obviously I did not see it as a violation of rules based on other posts in the thread or I wouldn't have posted it), reporting another post, asking for an explanation on said deleting of my post in relation to other posts on this thread, and then some 8 hours later having still no response. So, guess its public now.