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Clay P
10-03-2006, 09:59 AM
Here are the terrible stats on Adam Dunn. August through October .175AVG, .298OBP, .345SLG, 9HR, 21RBI, and 76K. 2HR and 5RBI in last 114AB.

He's done, finished, on a downhill slide. What's wrong? He's lazy, He's overweight, has the dang bat cocked so far back that all he can do is hit the long ball. Get rid of him NOW!

Joseph
10-03-2006, 10:03 AM
Wow high quality stuff there. </sarcasm>

I'm disappointed in his second half, as most all fans are, but downhill slide? Finished?

He's neither I'm fairly sure.

RedFanAlways1966
10-03-2006, 10:10 AM
Here is a terrible post/thread on RedsZone. The poster started here in July 2006 and has slid so far downhill that it can only think of non-original posts/threads like this one

It's done, finished, on a downhill slide and obviously not a MLB scout. What's wrong? Perhaps it is lazy and it can not come up with anything more original (beat a deadhorse). Get rid of it NOW!

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 10:20 AM
I would like to see a little bit of Rudi Johnson in Adam Dunn. I'd like to read during this off season that he's re-dedicating himself to baseball. That he's decided he's too good a ballplayer to not get 100 RBIs and hit .230. Do like Rudi and hire a personal trainer, chef and nutritionist. Ask Chris Chambliss for a bunch of tapes to study. Buy a house here in town and stay in close contact with the coaches and facilities at GABP.

Dunn is so talented he hit 40 HRs, hit .230 and walk 100 times without working at it. By that I mean he can show up at the ballpark, take batting practice, shag some fly balls and play the game. When it's over, head out to the bars with the boys, wake up the next day and get in some fishing.

I am of the opinion that Dunn would just as soon continue that lifestyle as opposed to becoming a superstar. I hope he proves me wrong...while in a Reds uniform.

Joseph
10-03-2006, 10:33 AM
Sea Ray, that was an excellent way to criticize a player. If I had rep left to give for the day I would send it to you. You stated a few opinions and points without being overly negative or beating the same point [strikeouts] over the head.

Kudos to you.

traderumor
10-03-2006, 11:02 AM
Agree with Joseph, Sea Ray. Interesting point that I considered making in the other thread. Rudi gained 1500 yards last year with a bum knee. This year, he's been hitting the hole like he's shot out of a cannon.

traderumor
10-03-2006, 11:03 AM
Here are the terrible stats on Adam Dunn. August through October .175AVG, .298OBP, .345SLG, 9HR, 21RBI, and 76K. 2HR and 5RBI in last 114AB.

He's done, finished, on a downhill slide. What's wrong? He's lazy, He's overweight, has the dang bat cocked so far back that all he can do is hit the long ball. Get rid of him NOW!Is this really "Adam from Milwaukee"? :evil:

KittyDuran
10-03-2006, 11:17 AM
Sea Ray, that was an excellent way to criticize a player. If I had rep left to give for the day I would send it to you. You stated a few opinions and points without being overly negative or beating the same point [strikeouts] over the head.

Kudos to you.Agreed...[and I gave some rep points out from both you and me]. :thumbup:

Clay P
10-03-2006, 11:31 AM
He's finished. I don't work on emotions, I work on the facts.

Joseph
10-03-2006, 11:39 AM
He's finished. I don't work on emotions, I work on the facts.

Fact is no one here is jumping in to agree with the way you stated things though.

justincredible
10-03-2006, 11:41 AM
Dunn didn't play to his potential this year but he is far from being "done, finished, on a downhill slide."

Joseph
10-03-2006, 12:12 PM
Agreed...[and I gave some rep points out from both you and me]. :thumbup:

Thanks Kit! :)

TOBTTReds
10-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Dunn has done this before. He is known to finish poorly it seems.

As far as his training regimin in the offseason, there is a major difference between NFL and MLB players. If Rudi doesn't train like the dickens, someone will replace him by year end, and he is out of the NFL most likely. In MLB, you don't train, but you have Dunn's natural ability, you are GUARANTEED $10 mil til you are 35 years old or so. I think this is why you don't see a lot of MLB players doing this off season training like NFL players. I'm sure there are a few, but rather uncommon.

But, I would of course love to see himself be a bit more dedicated, but I'm not him or his training, so I have no idea how much he doesn't train in the offseason.

shredda2000
10-03-2006, 12:27 PM
Dunn has done this before. He is known to finish poorly it seems.

As far as his training regimin in the offseason, there is a major difference between NFL and MLB players. If Rudi doesn't train like the dickens, someone will replace him by year end, and he is out of the NFL most likely. In MLB, you don't train, but you have Dunn's natural ability, you are GUARANTEED $10 mil til you are 35 years old or so. I think this is why you don't see a lot of MLB players doing this off season training like NFL players. I'm sure there are a few, but rather uncommon.

But, I would of course love to see himself be a bit more dedicated, but I'm not him or his training, so I have no idea how much he doesn't train in the offseason.

What would change this??? Perhaps a basic contract (5 mil or so) with a heavy dose of performance incentives???

Z-Fly
10-03-2006, 12:55 PM
What would change this??? Perhaps a basic contract (5 mil or so) with a heavy dose of performance incentives???

You could never get him to sign that. Because there are 10 other teams willing to pay him big dollars up front. After his current contract is over he will be a free agent. Usually the only time you are able to put incentives into a contract is, a player coming back from injuries (Currently unsigned) or a player that is on his last leg with a team and getting his last chance.

klw
10-03-2006, 01:06 PM
Dunn has done this before. He is known to finish poorly it seems.


September Stats


Year BA obp slugging ops Start of NFL Season
2006 .157 .333 .265 .598 9/7/06
2005 .255 .408 .468 .876 9/8/05
2004 .232 .339 .444 .783 9/9/04
2003 DNP
2002 .179 .310 .274 .584 9/5/02


I'd love to see him dedicate himself like you need to in order to be great, but I don't see it happening. Football's his first love, he settled for baseball. I don't think he has that passion for the game. I think it's just a day job to him.

I was unable to include October stats and did not have a site which allowed me to search from the specific date to the end of the year (ex 9/9/04)

CTA513
10-03-2006, 01:06 PM
He's finished. I don't work on emotions, I work on the facts.

Are you talking about Dunn or Griffey?

guttle11
10-03-2006, 01:07 PM
I would like to see a little bit of Rudi Johnson in Adam Dunn. I'd like to read during this off season that he's re-dedicating himself to baseball. That he's decided he's too good a ballplayer to not get 100 RBIs and hit .230. Do like Rudi and hire a peronal trainer, chef and nutritionist. Ask Chris Chambliss for a bunch of tapes to study. Buy a house here in town and stay in close contact with the coaches and facilities at GABP.

Dunn is so talented he hit 40 HRs, hit .230 and walk 100 times without working at it. By that I mean he can show up at the ballpark, take batting practice, shag some fly balls and play the game. When it's over, head out to the bars with the boys, wake up the next day and get in some fishing.

I am of the opinion that Dunn would just as soon continue that lifestyle as opposed to becoming a superstar. I hope he proves me wrong...while in a Reds uniform.

That is exactly how I feel about Dunn.

I'd love to see him dedicate himself like you need to in order to be great, but I don't see it happening. Football's his first love, he settled for baseball. I don't think he has that passion for the game. I think it's just a day job to him.

I hope he realizes that dedicating himself to being not only a better all around hitter, but a better fielder as well, is what's best for the team, and hey, will mean more money as well.

texasdave
10-03-2006, 01:35 PM
I guess the thing that bothers me most (and I freely admit that I don't see Adam Dunn play very often) is that he does not appear to be improving in any area. His play when he first came up is comparable to his play now. And even though he is approaching his 'peak' years, they won't be anything more than we have already seen so far. I wonder how unusual this is - that a player arrives in the majors at such a young age as good as he will ever be?

Shaggy Sanchez
10-03-2006, 01:59 PM
That is exactly how I feel about Dunn.

I'd love to see him dedicate himself like you need to in order to be great, but I don't see it happening. Football's his first love, he settled for baseball. I don't think he has that passion for the game. I think it's just a day job to him.

I hope he realizes that dedicating himself to being not only a better all around hitter, but a better fielder as well, is what's best for the team, and hey, will mean more money as well.

Why wouldn't he just look at it as a day job? I mean that is his job just as some people are lawyers, doctors, etc. he is a professional athlete. There are many people in the world that had a first love but chose the job that might have had better hours, benefits, or in Adam's case less harm to your body and better salaries. This is their career and in all honesty should think of themselves before what is best for the team. The offseason is their vacation and I am sure none of us would want to hear someone say you should work harder on your vacation. I think we as fans need to realize that all athletes have different motivation for why they are where they are. I know that at one time they all loved the game as we did when we played in little league or high school, but at a point it becomes work for them just as going to the office does for us.

Johnny Footstool
10-03-2006, 02:11 PM
Didn't Rudi Johnson have a big contract dispute and threaten to hold out before the start of last season?

KoryMac5
10-03-2006, 02:22 PM
Dunn is overweight by atleast 15 or 20 lbs I am hoping over the summer he takes his conditioning a little more seriously and skips some of the fishing trips. Getting back down to 245 would really help his career he used to be a threat to steal 15 to 20 bases now he'd be lucky to swipe 5.

westofyou
10-03-2006, 02:35 PM
he used to be a threat to steal 15 to 20 bases now he'd be lucky to swipe 5.

How many steals in this era can one expect from a player 6' 6"?

This is what 6' 5" and more guys have given MLB in the whole history of the game.


STOLEN BASES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE CS HT WT
1 Von Hayes 115 253 138 -34 6'5" 185
2 Darryl Strawberry 77 221 144 -35 6'6" 190
3 Alexis Rios 15 29 14 -6 6'5" 194
4 Parson Nicholson 11 58 47 0 6'6" 190
5 Derrek Lee 7 78 71 -1 6'5" 205
T6 Fran Healy 5 30 25 -2 6'5" 220
T6 Jayson Werth 5 17 12 2 6'5" 191
8 Adam Dunn 3 41 38 1 6'6" 240
T9 Chuck Connors 2 4 2 1 6'5" 190
T9 Ron Jackson 2 6 4 2 6'7" 225

OldRightHander
10-03-2006, 02:42 PM
How many steals in this era can one expect from a player 6' 6"?

This is what 6' 5" and more guys have given MLB in the whole history of the game.


STOLEN BASES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE CS HT WT
1 Von Hayes 115 253 138 -34 6'5" 185
2 Darryl Strawberry 77 221 144 -35 6'6" 190
3 Alexis Rios 15 29 14 -6 6'5" 194
4 Parson Nicholson 11 58 47 0 6'6" 190
5 Derrek Lee 7 78 71 -1 6'5" 205
T6 Fran Healy 5 30 25 -2 6'5" 220
T6 Jayson Werth 5 17 12 2 6'5" 191
8 Adam Dunn 3 41 38 1 6'6" 240
T9 Chuck Connors 2 4 2 1 6'5" 190
T9 Ron Jackson 2 6 4 2 6'7" 225

There you go having to confuse the issue by introducing facts.

KoryMac5
10-03-2006, 02:48 PM
Vlad is 6'3 235 and steals about 12 to 15 bases a year give or take. I'm not saying Dunn should turn into Ricky (it would drive me crazy listening to him say Adam's faster this year and Adam wants to steal more bases) but losing some weight would make him faster in the field and on the basepaths. He's pushing 275 right now guys. Sorry to confuse the argument with the voice of reason.

westofyou
10-03-2006, 03:14 PM
Vlad is 6'3 235 and steals about 12 to 15 bases a year give or take. I'm not saying Dunn should turn into Ricky (it would drive me crazy listening to him say Adam's faster this year and Adam wants to steal more bases) but losing some weight would make him faster in the field and on the basepaths. He's pushing 275 right now guys. Sorry to confuse the argument with the voice of reason.

6' 3"- 235?


Total Baseball has him at 6'2 185, Baseball Reference 6'2" 218, Retrosheet has him at 6'2 158 (??)

Vlad is 6'2 from what I can gather, that's 4 inches, 1/3 of a foot shorter the Dunn, many pounds... .

No comparison IMO.

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 03:36 PM
Just looking at Adam Dunn it is obvious that he's put on a lot of weight since his rookie year. According t the roster numbers it's about 30 lbs. I think he was listed at 245 as a rookie.

As an earlier poster stated, the proof is in the pudding. He has shown precious little improvement since breaking into the big leagues as a youngster. That tells me he's not working to improve himself. If this fact is true, the "Dunn apologists" lose their standing. The defense of Adam Dunn has always been to post his numbers at say 22-25 and compare it with Hall of Famers at the same age. Well if his peak year was say age 23 then that doesn't mean much.

I'd like to see his minor league stats. Anyone have those? My recollection is he didn't come up as a huge HR/high strikeout/low batting average guy.

Now it looks like he's satisfied being a 100 walk, 40 HR, 90 RBI guy with a .230 BA and hits poorly in the clutch. The bottomline is are we (the Reds fans and management) OK with that or is it better to ship him off? We can't count on anything more from this guy.

registerthis
10-03-2006, 03:37 PM
He's finished. I don't work on emotions, I work on the facts.

The facts don't support your position, either.

registerthis
10-03-2006, 03:40 PM
Now it looks like he's satisfied being a 100 walk, 40 HR, 90 RBI guy with a .230 BA and hits poorly in the clutch. The bottomline is are we (the Reds fans and management) OK with that or is it better to ship him off? We can't count on anything more from this guy.

I'm fine with those numbers, but not if we're paying him $10-$12 million a year to put them up. As several have noted in this thread, the true debate about Dunn is his value relative to his contract. I'll take a 40 HR guy any day of the week, no question. The question is what I would pay him.

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 03:48 PM
I'm fine with those numbers, but not if we're paying him $10-$12 million a year to put them up. As several have noted in this thread, the true debate about Dunn is his value relative to his contract. I'll take a 40 HR guy any day of the week, no question. The question is what I would pay him.

Exactly. The Reds kind of hoped he would improve his game when they gave him that contract. He's basically an AL DH. I think we can all agree he's not worth $10mill if he can only knock in 2 runs in the last three weeks of a pennant race

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 03:51 PM
Didn't Rudi Johnson have a big contract dispute and threaten to hold out before the start of last season?


Oh no. He was the Grand Marshall of the Reds Opening Day parade in 2005 and by that time he was signed and committed to Cincinnati.

guttle11
10-03-2006, 03:56 PM
Why wouldn't he just look at it as a day job? I mean that is his job just as some people are lawyers, doctors, etc. he is a professional athlete. There are many people in the world that had a first love but chose the job that might have had better hours, benefits, or in Adam's case less harm to your body and better salaries. This is their career and in all honesty should think of themselves before what is best for the team. The offseason is their vacation and I am sure none of us would want to hear someone say you should work harder on your vacation. I think we as fans need to realize that all athletes have different motivation for why they are where they are. I know that at one time they all loved the game as we did when we played in little league or high school, but at a point it becomes work for them just as going to the office does for us.

Listen to the greats in any field of work. They don't look at what they do as just a day job. It's their passion. Baseball doesn't seem to be Dunn's passion, at least to the naked eye.

He's put up the numbers he has based off of sheer athletic ability. The guy's a very good player, but he could be great.

NastyBoy
10-03-2006, 04:00 PM
Dunn is overweight by atleast 15 or 20 lbs I am hoping over the summer he takes his conditioning a little more seriously and skips some of the fishing trips. Getting back down to 245 would really help his career he used to be a threat to steal 15 to 20 bases now he'd be lucky to swipe 5.

I need to take up a off season conditioning program to work off the $1 hotdogs and $6 beers.

registerthis
10-03-2006, 04:11 PM
Why wouldn't he just look at it as a day job?

I'd say he has about 10 million reasons not to.

James B.
10-03-2006, 04:16 PM
I guess we might have to realize that Dunn is not the kind of player that can bat 3rd or fourth and carry a team. I have been waiting for him to be that type of player and though at one point in the season he was going to carry the reds.I think he will be fine if the reds bat him about fifth in the order and don't expect him to be the main superstar.

Shaggy Sanchez
10-03-2006, 04:38 PM
I'd say he has about 10 million reasons not to.

His day job is playing baseball though and his salary happens to be 10 million. Edwin made $332,500 this season is it ok for him to take it as a day job since he is being paid less. Adam Dunn can't help the fact that baseball salaries are absurd, the Reds gave him 10 million, if he is content to be the player he currently is and not improve that is totally his perogative.

gonelong
10-03-2006, 04:40 PM
I find it particularly humerous at the number of posters who are chastizing Dunn for his worth ethic as they post during the daytime, presumably from work. Priceless.

GL

NJReds
10-03-2006, 04:42 PM
I find it particularly humerous at the number of posters who are chastizing Dunn for his worth ethic as they post during the daytime, presumably from work. Priceless.

GL

Yes, but I take the stairs instead of the elevator and I run to my desk. ;)

KronoRed
10-03-2006, 04:42 PM
Yes, but I take the stairs instead of the elevator and I run to my desk. ;)

You know how to play the game THE RIGHT WAY :thumbup:

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 04:43 PM
Adam Dunn can't help the fact that baseball salaries are absurd, the Reds gave him 10 million, if he is content to be the player he currently is and not improve that is totally his perogative.

It sure is and he would not be the first athlete to be that way.

I don't think Wayne is the type of GM to keep a guy who doesn't want to work to be the best he can. I think he'd rather have less talented guys who give it their all. I'm OK with trading him but after what we got for AK and Felipe I shutter to think what return Wayne will get us for Dunn. If the deal doesn't include a top notch pitching talent and OF talent I'm not interested.

BRM
10-03-2006, 04:44 PM
Yes, but I take the stairs instead of the elevator and I run to my desk. ;)

Now that's hustle!

Shaggy Sanchez
10-03-2006, 04:44 PM
Listen to the greats in any field of work. They don't look at what they do as just a day job. It's their passion. Baseball doesn't seem to be Dunn's passion, at least to the naked eye.

He's put up the numbers he has based off of sheer athletic ability. The guy's a very good player, but he could be great.

This is my point Dunn might just look at baseball as a way to make millions of dollars while having fun doing it. Dunn chose basebal over football so he might not be doing what his true passion is and if that is the case baseball could just be a another job for him. We are assuming that Dunn wants to be one of the great players of all time or wants to be the guy that carries a team down the stretch. For all we know he might be content to be a very good player and just get by on what ability they have. He would not be the first person that didn't reach his/her full potential in their profession.

Big Daddy P
10-03-2006, 05:10 PM
Nobody who hits .234 can remotely be called a "very good player"! What are you smoking? Are you related to Dunn?

Please, son!

westofyou
10-03-2006, 05:20 PM
What are you smoking?

Thai stick soaked in Cherry Brandy, what are you smoking?

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 05:24 PM
This is my point Dunn might just look at baseball as a way to make millions of dollars while having fun doing it. Dunn chose basebal over football so he might not be doing what his true passion is and if that is the case baseball could just be a another job for him. We are assuming that Dunn wants to be one of the great players of all time or wants to be the guy that carries a team down the stretch. For all we know he might be content to be a very good player and just get by on what ability they have. He would not be the first person that didn't reach his/her full potential in their profession.

I think some of us are underestimating the grinding, behind-the-scenes, day-to-day work it takes to be a major league baseball player. And one who routinely hits 40 HRs a year at that.

I'd love to know what you all think Dunn would be capable of if he actually worked rather than "getting by" on sheer natural ability.

vance
10-03-2006, 05:28 PM
I think anyone who puts up a 900 OPS can be called a very good player regardless of the BA.

Natty Redlocks
10-03-2006, 05:38 PM
Exactly. The Reds kind of hoped he would improve his game when they gave him that contract. He's basically an AL DH. I think we can all agree he's not worth $10mill if he can only knock in 2 runs in the last three weeks of a pennant race

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Very well put. He's a luxury a big money team can afford. The Reds need to spend that money on pitching since they don't have an offensive centerpiece.

Johnny Footstool
10-03-2006, 05:46 PM
You'd think so, wouldn't you? Very well put. He's a luxury a big money team can afford. The Reds need to spend that money on pitching since they don't have an offensive centerpiece.

They spent several million dollars on Eric Milton and a few more on Paul Wilson. That sure helped.

Rheal Cormier is soaking up $2.5 million for the 40 innings he'll pitch next years. That's money well spent.

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 05:54 PM
I'd love to know what you all think Dunn would be capable of if he actually worked rather than "getting by" on sheer natural ability.

OK, I'll give my opinion. I think he could hit 50 HRS, knock in 140, hit .280, strike out 150 times and play an average LF if he worked at his trade. I also think if he'd have done that the Reds would have won 10 more games and cruised to the playoffs this year. Just my opinion.

westofyou
10-03-2006, 06:00 PM
I think he could hit 50 HRS, knock in 140, hit .280,
That would be great, of course only two players have ever done that and only one struck out less 150 times.




RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Ken Griffey Jr. 1998 8.00 .284 56 146 121
2 Sammy Sosa 1999 7.83 .288 63 141 171

pedro
10-03-2006, 06:19 PM
That would be great, of course only two players have ever done that and only one struck out less 150 times.




RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Ken Griffey Jr. 1998 8.00 .284 56 146 121
2 Sammy Sosa 1999 7.83 .288 63 141 171

how are you working your filters on your search? many more players than that have hit at least .280 with at leats 50 HR's and 140 RBI's.

George Foster in 1977 immediately comes to mind.

westofyou
10-03-2006, 06:28 PM
how are you working your filters on your search? many more players than that have hit at least .280 with at leats 50 HR's and 140 RBI's.

George Foster in 1977 immediately comes to mind.

I set the filter under .280, because Dunn ain't gonna hit much above that and well the criteria was set by the expectations of the fanbase.

As for the amount of times it's been done with any BA

18 times...by 11 guys, 9 HOF's... well maybe 9...I guess if you're going to set the bar high then that's pretty high.



RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Babe Ruth 1921 17.90 .378 59 171 81
2 Babe Ruth 1927 14.91 .356 60 164 89
3 Jimmie Foxx 1932 14.47 .364 58 169 96
4 Mark McGwire 1998 13.90 .299 70 147 155
5 Jimmie Foxx 1938 13.45 .349 50 175 76
6 Babe Ruth 1928 12.79 .323 54 142 87
7 Hack Wilson 1930 12.70 .356 56 191 84
8 Sammy Sosa 2001 12.57 .328 64 160 153
9 Hank Greenberg 1938 11.70 .315 58 146 92
10 Luis Gonzalez 2001 11.28 .325 57 142 83
11 Mark McGwire 1999 10.85 .278 65 147 141
12 Ken Griffey Jr. 1997 9.04 .304 56 147 121
13 Alex Rodriguez 2002 8.94 .300 57 142 122
14 George Foster 1977 8.64 .320 52 149 107
15 Sammy Sosa 1998 8.34 .308 66 158 171
16 Roger Maris 1961 8.15 .269 61 142 67
17 Ken Griffey Jr. 1998 8.00 .284 56 146 121
18 Sammy Sosa 1999 7.83 .288 63 141 171

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 06:34 PM
I set the filter under .280, because Dunn ain't gonna hit much above that and well the criteria was set by the expectations of the fanbase.



I still don't understand the Griffey/Sosa post. That example showed both of them hitting better than .280. What do you mean by under .280?

RFS62
10-03-2006, 07:10 PM
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Babe Ruth 1921 17.90 .378 59 171 81
2 Babe Ruth 1927 14.91 .356 60 164 89
3 Jimmie Foxx 1932 14.47 .364 58 169 96
4 Mark McGwire 1998 13.90 .299 70 147 155
5 Jimmie Foxx 1938 13.45 .349 50 175 76
6 Babe Ruth 1928 12.79 .323 54 142 87
7 Hack Wilson 1930 12.70 .356 56 191 84
8 Sammy Sosa 2001 12.57 .328 64 160 153
9 Hank Greenberg 1938 11.70 .315 58 146 92
10 Luis Gonzalez 2001 11.28 .325 57 142 83
11 Mark McGwire 1999 10.85 .278 65 147 141
12 Ken Griffey Jr. 1997 9.04 .304 56 147 121
13 Alex Rodriguez 2002 8.94 .300 57 142 122
14 George Foster 1977 8.64 .320 52 149 107
15 Sammy Sosa 1998 8.34 .308 66 158 171
16 Roger Maris 1961 8.15 .269 61 142 67
17 Ken Griffey Jr. 1998 8.00 .284 56 146 121
18 Sammy Sosa 1999 7.83 .288 63 141 171




What a bunch of stiffs.

westofyou
10-03-2006, 07:16 PM
I still don't understand the Griffey/Sosa post. That example showed both of them hitting better than .280. What do you mean by under .280?

Actually, I set the filter from .280-.290 my bad... I dropped the bottom and kept it to .290 at the top, that adds in 1999 McGwire.

So it goes as thus

BA under .290 - .291-.300 .301-.320 .320-.340 .340-UP


RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Mark McGwire 1999 10.85 .278 65 147 141
2 Roger Maris 1961 8.15 .269 61 142 67
3 Ken Griffey Jr. 1998 8.00 .284 56 146 121
4 Sammy Sosa 1999 7.83 .288 63 141 171
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Mark McGwire 1998 13.90 .299 70 147 155
2 Alex Rodriguez 2002 8.94 .300 57 142 122
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Hank Greenberg 1938 11.70 .315 58 146 92
2 Ken Griffey Jr. 1997 9.04 .304 56 147 121
3 George Foster 1977 8.64 .320 52 149 107
4 Sammy Sosa 1998 8.34 .308 66 158 171

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Babe Ruth 1928 12.79 .323 54 142 87
2 Sammy Sosa 2001 12.57 .328 64 160 153
3 Luis Gonzalez 2001 11.28 .325 57 142 83

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AVG HR RBI SO
1 Babe Ruth 1921 17.90 .378 59 171 81
2 Babe Ruth 1927 14.91 .356 60 164 89
3 Jimmie Foxx 1932 14.47 .364 58 169 96
4 Jimmie Foxx 1938 13.45 .349 50 175 76
5 Hack Wilson 1930 12.70 .356 56 191 84


Also of note: 14 of the above struck out less then 150 times, that's 77% making it seem even more unlikely to occur.(Due to the amount of time Dunn strikes out.)

I guess my point is that by setting almost unrealistic expectations on a player you'll end up being disappointed most of the time. RBI's are especially iffy to predict. This year the Ryan Howard drove in tons of runs, the Phillies also had 2 guys with more then a 100 runs scored ahead of him. It's no coincidence that the Reds franchise record for RBI's also came in a year that Griffey and Morgan both scored over 110 runs, or that Tommy Harper scored an amazing 126 runs the exact same year that Deron Johnson drove in an amazing 136 runs.

I'd take less errors, and a batting average above .260 from Dunn and see what happens, that would make me happy.

Also note the guys who did it with a high BA did it in a diffrent era, one awash in gaudy BA numbers and low walks and low K eras. The lower BA guys all represent post strike MLB, except for Maris who had a freak season in an up offensive year.

Shaggy Sanchez
10-03-2006, 07:17 PM
OK, I'll give my opinion. I think he could hit 50 HRS, knock in 140, hit .280, strike out 150 times and play an average LF if he worked at his trade.

The problem with him driving in 140 is that there has to be guys in front of him that get on base. The Reds don't really have that right now so I don't see him driving in 140 anytime soon.

mth123
10-03-2006, 08:44 PM
Dunn has done this before. He is known to finish poorly it seems.

As far as his training regimin in the offseason, there is a major difference between NFL and MLB players. If Rudi doesn't train like the dickens, someone will replace him by year end, and he is out of the NFL most likely. In MLB, you don't train, but you have Dunn's natural ability, you are GUARANTEED $10 mil til you are 35 years old or so. I think this is why you don't see a lot of MLB players doing this off season training like NFL players. I'm sure there are a few, but rather uncommon.

But, I would of course love to see himself be a bit more dedicated, but I'm not him or his training, so I have no idea how much he doesn't train in the offseason.

The flip side is that every year (except 2003) he's been out there with most of the other offensive forces on his team already fallen by the wayside. In years past Griffey (every year), Kearns, Casey, Pena, Freel, Larkin have been missing in action from time to time in August and September. I think the end of the season numbers will be somewaht lower anyway during the dog days, spotty line-ups with no protection. and usually nothing to play for. This year was awful, but I think we are reading too much into his August and September numbers. He does need to be in better condition though, and it would probably help some.

GAC
10-03-2006, 08:47 PM
And the guy is probably shaking his head wondering why he has -38 rep pts! :lol:

Next he'll say that the only reason Dunn hits HRs is so he can take his time running around the bases.

Spring~Fields
10-03-2006, 08:50 PM
And the guy is probably shaking his head wondering why he has -38 rep pts! :lol:

Next he'll say that the only reason Dunn hits HRs is so he can take his time running around the bases.

You know that does make sense, if one just hits a single it takes longer to get back to the bench. :evil: :help: Just kidding.

Handofdeath
10-03-2006, 08:51 PM
I think anyone who puts up a 900 OPS can be called a very good player regardless of the BA.

What do you call someone whose OPS is .855 and has dropped over 100 points the last two seasons?

Sea Ray
10-03-2006, 11:22 PM
I guess my point is that by setting almost unrealistic expectations on a player you'll end up being disappointed most of the time. RBI's are especially iffy to predict. This year the Ryan Howard drove in tons of runs, the Phillies also had 2 guys with more then a 100 runs scored ahead of him. It's no coincidence that the Reds franchise record for RBI's also came in a year that Griffey and Morgan both scored over 110 runs, or that Tommy Harper scored an amazing 126 runs the exact same year that Deron Johnson drove in an amazing 136 runs.

I'd take less errors, and a batting average above .260 from Dunn and see what happens, that would make me happy.



I have higher expectations. OK, he can't control how many guys are on base in front of him but he can hit better with RISP. He can hit a few sacrifice flies. He can even go to left field a few times. If he really studied baseball he would learn these nuances. With his eye, I think hitting .260 is underachieving.

I'll put it another way. He should be an All Star most every year. Maybe not as a starter but he should be one of the best outfielders in the league year in and year out. Maybe I'm over-estimating him but I really think he's that talented.

Raisor
10-05-2006, 07:04 PM
He can hit a few sacrifice flies..


sweet!

I can't wait to watch "sac fly practice" in spring training next year!

westofyou
10-05-2006, 07:50 PM
sweet!

I can't wait to watch "sac fly practice" in spring training next year!

Those are mighty high expectations Raisor, don't get too pumped for it.

RANDY IN INDY
10-06-2006, 07:02 AM
sweet!

I can't wait to watch "sac fly practice" in spring training next year!

With all the "lifting" that goes on, late in batting practice, you've probably been watching for a long time.

Johnny Footstool
10-06-2006, 09:39 AM
What do you call someone whose OPS is .855 and has dropped over 100 points the last two seasons?

Wait, I've heard this one before...I think I can remember the punchline...

A multi-millionaire?

The biggest problem in the Reds organization?

Ron Burgundy?

I give up.

vance
10-06-2006, 12:17 PM
What do you call someone whose OPS is .855 and has dropped over 100 points the last two seasons?


When that player is only 26, I still consider him a great player.

timmario66
10-06-2006, 02:01 PM
Lance has a poll on his blog site asking simply would you like to see the Reds trade Dunn? http://lance1530homer.com/blog.asp

As of right now it's 87% trade him.

registerthis
10-06-2006, 02:46 PM
Lance has a poll on his blog site asking simply would you like to see the Reds trade Dunn? http://lance1530homer.com/blog.asp

As of right now it's 87% trade him.

That's just dumb, people who vote in those polls aren't thinking things through.

Red Leader
10-06-2006, 03:21 PM
Lance has a poll on his blog site asking simply would you like to see the Reds trade Dunn? http://lance1530homer.com/blog.asp

As of right now it's 87% trade him.

I think that says more about the type of fans that Lance draws more than the type of fans Dunn draws.

texasdave
10-06-2006, 03:30 PM
There are any number of valid reasons to entertain trade offers for Dunn over the winter. I believe the ones that voted no don't trade Dunn under any circumstance are the ones who really have not thought things through.

Johnny Footstool
10-06-2006, 04:28 PM
There are valid reasons to entertain trade offers for Homer Bailey, too. But the likelihood of getting equivalent value in a trade is low.

I feel the same way about Dunn, especially since so many fans undervalue his offensive contributions.

registerthis
10-06-2006, 05:17 PM
There are any number of valid reasons to entertain trade offers for Dunn over the winter. I believe the ones that voted no don't trade Dunn under any circumstance are the ones who really have not thought things through.

I don't think so. I'd suspect that those who voted "No" did so because they realize that the market value for Dunn right now is extremely low, and that the Reds were more likely than not to get fleeced in any deal containing Dunn. Likewise, those that voted "yes", I suspect, did so reflexively as a result of Dunn's tank job at the end of this season, and didn't really think through the type of return the Reds might get on a deal for Dunn right now.

texasdave
10-06-2006, 06:27 PM
Perhaps the poll wasn't set up as precisely as it could have been. When I voted yes I assumed that the Reds would receive what they felt was equal value in return. I didn't think that a yes vote simply meant dump him no matter what.