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Puffy
10-03-2006, 10:31 AM
Damon
Jeter
Abreu
Sheffield
Giambi
ARod
Matsui
Posada
Cano

Absolutely unbelievable - Cano would hit second for the Reds, yet in this lineup I can't see him anywhere but 8th or 9th. Absolutely unbelievable.

Cyclone792
10-03-2006, 10:41 AM
In other words, this is their lineup ...

Good player
Hall of Fame caliber player
Hall of Fame caliber player
Hall of Fame caliber player
Hall of Fame caliber player
Hall of Fame caliber player
Good player
Hall of Fame caliber player
Good player

Randy Johnson's a Hall of Famer. Mariano Rivera's a Hall of Famer. Mike Mussina is trying to beat the door down to Cooperstown.

That's nine Hall of Fame caliber players on the roster, six of which are in the lineup. If the Yankees do not win the World Series, I'll be a bit shocked.

CrackerJack
10-03-2006, 10:59 AM
Basically an all-star lineup. Must be nice to go out and buy a team every year. It's really just absurd/silly...and people wonder why no one goes to Reds games any more.

Puffy
10-03-2006, 11:12 AM
That's nine Hall of Fame caliber players on the roster, six of which are in the lineup. If the Yankees do not win the World Series, I'll be a bit shocked.

It still comes down to pitching - I'm not sure the Yankees have enough of it to not be upset again this year. Don't get me wrong, I like Wang, Moose and RJ - but none of them are a Santana and none of them are shut down pitchers that can run a series (like Rijo did for the Reds)

NJReds
10-03-2006, 11:19 AM
This is what happens when a team with loads of money reads "Moneyball"

This team takes a ton of pitches. They'll drive the Tigers crazy.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 11:21 AM
This is what happens when a team with loads of money reads "Moneyball"

This team takes a ton of pitches. They'll drive the Tigers crazy.

:laugh:

I know that's a dig in a way, but that's one of the more original (and true) "yAnkEES havE MONEY$$$$$" arguments I've read.

Cedric
10-03-2006, 11:39 AM
:laugh:

I know that's a dig in a way, but that's one of the more original (and true) "yAnkEES havE MONEY$$$$$" arguments I've read.

It doesn't need to be original to be true.

oneupper
10-03-2006, 11:39 AM
Giambi and Sheffield are nowhere near being HOF, for many reasons, one of them being their chemically enhanced bodies. (numbers aren't quite there, either).
Abreu...doesn't quite make it either.

Call them excellent if you like, to distinguish them from the others, but the HOF label is a bit big for them.

Despite the nitpicking, you're right...the lineup is SCARY.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 11:41 AM
It doesn't need to be original to be true.

I didn't say otherwise.

GIK
10-03-2006, 11:51 AM
It's insane, but I'm still pulling for the Tigers. If the pitching is ON, they've got a chance.

JEA
10-03-2006, 11:52 AM
Giambi and Sheffield are nowhere near being HOF, for many reasons, one of them being their chemically enhanced bodies. (numbers aren't quite there, either).

I may be in the minority, but I just don't agree that Sheffield is nowhere near being a Hall of Famer.

Steroid issues aside, the guy's put up some very impressive stats - .297, 455 HRs, 1,501 RBIs, 1,433 runs, 2,390 hits, 418 2Bs, 220 SBs with a career .398 OBP and .923 OPS.

Two or three more full seasons, and I'd consider him a lock.

A big downfall is that he's rarely led the league in anything - a batting title in 1992 is about it.

But he's got nine All-Stars, five Silver Sluggers and six top-10s in MVP voting.

He may be borderline, but he's far from being "nowhere near" a Hall of Famer.

jimbo
10-03-2006, 11:57 AM
A very scarey lineup, but in the postseason it's all about pitching and as someone else mentioned, I'm not sure they have enough of it. Same with the Mets.

NJReds
10-03-2006, 11:58 AM
It's insane, but I'm still pulling for the Tigers. If the pitching is ON, they've got a chance.


Their pitching hasn't been "on" for about a month. I think those rookie arms hit the wall. Scary that they couldn't beat Kansas City at home last weekend when they only need one victory to secure the division.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 12:03 PM
Regarding pitching, I think that people are underestimating Mussina and Wang. Wang is consistent, he's had an amazing year, and he is cool as a cucumber on the mound. He's got good defense to back him up, which is crucial for him. And all of a sudden people seem to have forgotten about Mussina, who in my opinion should be considered as reliable and scary in the postseason as any of the Tigers' kids should prove to be.

If they can go deep into games (which they are both capable of doing), the Yankees pitching could well hold up to the Tigers. It's the Yankees bullpen that causes me more concern. But I was hearing this argument before the 2004 playoffs about the Yankees starting pitching, which IMHO was comparable if not weaker than this year's and it surprised everybody, particularly Mussina. Well, until ALCS game 4.

Blimpie
10-03-2006, 12:03 PM
Did I just read that Puffy said he liked Wang? I must have been dreaming.

Cyclone792
10-03-2006, 12:08 PM
Giambi and Sheffield are nowhere near being HOF, for many reasons, one of them being their chemically enhanced bodies. (numbers aren't quite there, either).
Abreu...doesn't quite make it either.

Call them excellent if you like, to distinguish them from the others, but the HOF label is a bit big for them.

Despite the nitpicking, you're right...the lineup is SCARY.

All of their numbers compare very favorably to players in the Hall at their respective positions, which is why I said Hall of Fame caliber ...

1B Career OPS+
163
158
158
149
148
143
129
122

That's a random sampling of HOF OPS+ numbers. Jason Giambi's career OPS+ is in the above list, and it's not one of the two on the bottom. All the rest are Hall of Famers. He may not have the overall career numbers yet, but his career is still ongoing and will provide him an opportunity to tack on to his career numbers.

RF Career OPS+
148
146
144
139
138
137
134
134
130
125
123

Same deal, random sampling of Hall of Fame right fielders, and mixed in is Sheffield and Abreu's career OPS+. Neither one are near the bottom of that list, either.

Abreu's only 32-years-old and already has over 250 career win shares. He's probably the most underrated player in all of baseball in the last 10 years.

Red Leader
10-03-2006, 12:08 PM
Don't get me wrong, I like Wang, and Moose


Dude. I know. I've known for awhile. I'm so glad that you're now comfortable enough to come out and discuss this in public. Still not willing to come out and discuss sheep yet though, huh?



Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Puffy
10-03-2006, 12:09 PM
This is what happens when a team with loads of money reads "Moneyball"

This team takes a ton of pitches. They'll drive the Tigers crazy.

I know this is a joke - but Torre and the Yankees having been doing the Moneyball thing long before Beane took over or Lewis wrote the book. Their 4 championships in 5 years was based on working counts and getting to bullpens. That was what they got away from, but its back now.

Puffy
10-03-2006, 12:13 PM
Regarding pitching, I think that people are underestimating Mussina and Wang. Wang is consistent, he's had an amazing year, and he is cool as a cucumber on the mound. He's got good defense to back him up, which is crucial for him. And all of a sudden people seem to have forgotten about Mussina, who in my opinion should be considered as reliable and scary in the postseason as any of the Tigers' kids should prove to be.

If they can go deep into games (which they are both capable of doing), the Yankees pitching could well hold up to the Tigers. It's the Yankees bullpen that causes me more concern. But I was hearing this argument before the 2004 playoffs about the Yankees starting pitching, which IMHO was comparable if not weaker than this year's and it surprised everybody, particularly Mussina. Well, until ALCS game 4.

Since I am the one who first mentioned pitching I will respond to this - as I stated above I like Moose and Wang as pitchers. I think they are above average. My point was they don't have that hammer - the one guy who scares opposing teams. They are both guys who are going to go out there and give you 6 to 7 innings and 3 runs or less. Thats great, but in the postseason, if they run into a Santana pitching against them 3 times potentially, 3 runs is too many.

That is my point. Hey, I'm a Yankee fan and I'm scared of matching up against Santana. Much like Red Leader was scared of girls until he was 23.

klw
10-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Absolutely unbelievable - Cano would hit second for the Reds, yet in this lineup I can't see him anywhere but 8th or 9th. Absolutely unbelievable.

Well Cano would hit 2nd for the Reds against hard throwing righties, sixth against control oriented lefties, fifth against power lefties, seventh on Tuesdays, eighth when they need to break up the lefties because Dunn and Jr are in the lineup, leadoff when Freel is out and the pitcher is Righthanded, cleanup against lefties on Thursday day games in years in which the stock market is up, and ninth when the DL is used in AL parks and the pitcher is named Park, and would rest on days when Brandon Harris is used on a hunch.

vaticanplum
10-03-2006, 12:17 PM
Hey, I'm a Yankee fan and I'm scared of matching up against Santana.

I did not know that. I am a Yankees fan too and I thought I might have to leave this board for the postseason, but I'm going to try to stick around.

I am scared of Santana too...heck, I'm still scared of some of the Tigers pitchers. But your point is kind of mine as well -- if the Yankees' pitching is on, it can be a silent killer. It does just, as you say, depend on who they're facing. I think the Yankees' pitching is not as showy and not as scary in some cases, but I do think it's more reliable. Ironically, of the big 3 I would pick Johnson as the least reliable, especially at this point.

NJReds
10-03-2006, 12:21 PM
I know this is a joke - but Torre and the Yankees having been doing the Moneyball thing long before Beane took over or Lewis wrote the book. Their 4 championships in 5 years was based on working counts and getting to bullpens. That was what they got away from, but its back now.

Yeah, I know. It was always a big part of what they tried to accomplish.

But this lineup is like the 'perfect storm' of pitch takers. And they have Bernie Williams and Melky Cabrera on the bench...they'll also work the count.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2006, 12:26 PM
If it ends up being the Mets and the Yankees in the Series, I'm not watching it.

Puffy
10-03-2006, 12:32 PM
If it ends up being the Mets and the Yankees in the Series, I'm not watching it.

How I love the New York bias :rolleyes:

jmcclain19
10-03-2006, 12:50 PM
Everytime you cheer for the Yankees, God kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

Rojo
10-03-2006, 01:04 PM
If it ends up being the Mets and the Yankees in the Series, I'm not watching it.

You won't be alone. IIRC, the last time these two got together, it was a very low-rated World Series.

Matt700wlw
10-03-2006, 01:05 PM
I think I'm going to ride the Twins bandwagon....I LOVE their pitching staff..too bad Loriano is hurt.

Cedric
10-03-2006, 01:07 PM
I think I'm going to ride the Twins bandwagon....I LOVE their pitching staff..too bad Loriano is hurt.

The Twins are the anti Redszone.

Why I root for them.

:)

jimbo
10-04-2006, 12:27 AM
If it ends up being the Mets and the Yankees in the Series, I'm not watching it.

Here's that double edged sword. As much as I hate the Yankees and the Mets, a WS matchup with these two would make for some great drama......I'd have to watch it.

deltachi8
10-04-2006, 03:38 AM
If it ends up being the Mets and the Yankees in the Series, I'm not watching it.

yes because that cant possibly be entertaining.

RedsManRick
10-04-2006, 08:56 AM
This just in. Moneyball is about exploiting market inefficiencies, not on base percentage. The Yankees do realize the value of P/PA, but they are paying a VERY pretty penny to get it. Please stop with the Morganizing of Moneyball....

NJReds
10-04-2006, 09:06 AM
This just in. Moneyball is about exploiting market inefficiencies, not on base percentage. The Yankees do realize the value of P/PA, but they are paying a VERY pretty penny to get it. Please stop with the Morganizing of Moneyball....

...Yes, I'm actually reading the book (finally). It was a joke, relax Billy. ;)

BRM
10-04-2006, 09:43 AM
You won't be alone. IIRC, the last time these two got together, it was a very low-rated World Series.

The Subway Series in 2000 was a very low rated series. So was the 2002 Angels/Giants series. However, last years was the lowest ever I believe.