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TeamSelig
10-03-2006, 05:32 PM
Two that I wouldn't mind taking a chance on:

Brian Lawrence
Zach Day

dunner13
10-03-2006, 05:34 PM
I agree pick them up. Both have good upside, they could at least contend for the 5th spot and give us some depth.

Tom Servo
10-03-2006, 05:36 PM
Wonder if JimBo called up Wayne and offered him all of them for Dunn before releasing them. :p:

Johnny Footstool
10-03-2006, 05:39 PM
Upside? Those two? I don't see it. They're both pitch-to-contact guys who get shelled on a regular basis. The Reds already have plenty of pitchers in that mold.

RANDY IN INDY
10-03-2006, 05:47 PM
Have to agree with Johnny.

redsfan30
10-03-2006, 05:48 PM
I think this is the offseason where the team tries to move away from the past and bring in some actual talent.

I'm not sure these two guys fall under that category.

dunner13
10-03-2006, 05:59 PM
I thought lawerance was a groundball sinker type pitcher. Could be wrong, but if he is then he would seem to be exactly the type of pitcher that would have success in Cincy. Assuming clayton isnt anywhere near the infield.

Patrick Bateman
10-03-2006, 06:06 PM
Pass on Day, but a MLC on Lawrence would be good.

Lawrence had a good couple of years when he came up, regressed for 3 years and then the big injury. If he comes back strong, he could be a pretty good bargain if he can regain his 2002 form, and for a relatively young pitcher it could happen even if the chances are poor. It would be a good idea as long as there are no guarantees thrown at him.

Heath
10-03-2006, 06:17 PM
Brian Lawrence

They cut Lawrence??

Whoa!

http://www.tvsquad.com/media/2006/02/josephlawrence.jpg

TeamSelig
10-03-2006, 06:39 PM
Either would make a decent 5th starter (or competitor for it), or maybe even a long reliever.

deltachi8
10-03-2006, 06:41 PM
What Johnny said.

flyer85
10-03-2006, 06:51 PM
can't believe we didn't trade for them

Doc. Scott
10-03-2006, 06:52 PM
Lawrence is younger than I thought he was (just thirty), but he missed all of 2006 with arm issues. Day is only 28, but missed most of 2006 as well and hasn't ever made more than 23 starts or pitched more than 131 innings in a major-league season.

The fact that Bowden and the pitching-starved Nats didn't think either were worth a 2007 deal says a lot, don't you think? (And especially so quickly.) This is a team that played out the second half with a fistful of AAA relievers (and Ryan Wagner) straight out of Cincinnati Reds September 2003 Central Casting and a rotation with nobody under a 4.80 ERA. Chad Cordero and Jon Rauch are about it from that laugher of a staff. And Rauch's arm (85 G, 91.1 IP) will be falling off a la Majewski at some point in 2007.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/Brian-Lawrence.shtml

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/Zach-Day.shtml

But the problem is that we have a guy who's much the same pitcher as these two already in-house. His name? Ryan Franklin.

Falls City Beer
10-03-2006, 06:53 PM
can't believe we didn't trade for them

I'm sure if Wayne had kicked in Dunn, we'd all be celebrating now. :)

reds1869
10-03-2006, 07:23 PM
Pass, unless we get them at absolute bargain basement prices.

Chip R
10-03-2006, 07:27 PM
The fact that Bowden and the pitching-starved Nats didn't think either were worth a 2007 deal says a lot, don't you think?

That's my thinking too. If JimBo can't use them, I don't want any part of them.

Joseph
10-03-2006, 07:32 PM
But the problem is that we have a guy who's much the same pitcher as these two already in-house. His name? Ryan Franklin.

Isn't Franklin a free agent though?

TeamSelig
10-03-2006, 07:34 PM
So what if JimBo released him? JimBo isn't the greatest at acknowledging pitchers. Just because a team releases a player doesn't mean they don't have any chance at being a valuable player.....

just sayin

Joseph
10-03-2006, 07:54 PM
They also released

Astachio
Eischen
Drese
and Rodriguez

captainmorgan07
10-03-2006, 08:09 PM
i'll take brian lawrence

Slyder
10-03-2006, 08:20 PM
Give me Brian Lawrence and leave the rest of those alone. Lawrence could still "regain his stuff". And maybe just maybe with a little luck be almost like Carpenter was for the Cards. Come in and pitch to his potential and finally "be healthy".

Remember Carpenter was one that always had talent but kept getting hurt.

mth123
10-03-2006, 08:49 PM
Only for a non-guaranteed spring training invite. I think we're looking at Joe Mays and Paul Wilson here with these two.

Redsfan08
10-03-2006, 09:15 PM
Lawrnce yes Day fellow cincinnatian possibly

Topcat
10-04-2006, 12:41 AM
If Lawrence would take the minimum I would take a chance on him for sure.

BEETTLEBUG
10-04-2006, 03:35 AM
I say go for Lawerence also I was reading on Nationals WEB site that they might be offering Jose Vidro for pitching to put lopez at 2b Guzman at SS . Would we be afraid of dealing with leather Pants?

NJReds
10-04-2006, 09:13 AM
I'd invite Lawrence and Day to spring training.

Johnny Footstool
10-04-2006, 09:48 AM
I'd invite Lawrence and Day to spring training.

I would, too. The team needs someone to sweep up the cafeteria.

REDREAD
10-04-2006, 09:56 AM
When your own team is running out Michalek, Lawerance doesn't look too bad (if he's cheap enough).

The reality is that we are going to have to have a pitching cattle call this spring (both starting and bullpen)

It was nice of Bowden to release those vets right away if he knew they weren't in his plans. It gives them the most time possible to find new jobs, and let's them shop themselves around before other players become available.

redsupport
10-04-2006, 10:48 AM
ryan drese is better than michaluk, mays

blumj
10-04-2006, 11:15 AM
ryan drese is better than michaluk, mays
He had a pretty good season with the Rangers, of all teams, a few years ago. I don't know if he got hurt, or just lost it, but he might be a decent project for someone.

westofyou
10-04-2006, 11:25 AM
It was nice of Bowden to release those vets right away if he knew they weren't in his plans. It gives them the most time possible to find new jobs, and let's them shop themselves around before other players become available.

"Nice"?

That funny, the game will be awash with releases over the next couple weeks, Bowden just did what Cleveland did to Boone, and what the Reds will do to Clayton.

Ahhhh Zach Day, it seems like just yesterday

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32662

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32229

Roy Tucker
10-04-2006, 11:30 AM
I hope the Reds don't pick them up. They need pitchers with stuff that miss bats. We have pitch-to-contact guys out the wazoo.

This perpetual bottom-feeder dumpster-diving has to stop. Spend some daggone money and get some truly talented pitchers.

BRM
10-04-2006, 11:48 AM
I say go for Lawerence also I was reading on Nationals WEB site that they might be offering Jose Vidro for pitching to put lopez at 2b Guzman at SS . Would we be afraid of dealing with leather Pants?

Do the Reds have any pitching that would bring Vidro? Outside if the big two of Arroyo/Harang, what could they offer?

REDREAD
10-04-2006, 12:46 PM
"Nice"?

That funny, the game will be awash with releases over the next couple weeks, Bowden just did what Cleveland did to Boone, and what the Reds will do to Clayton.


Well, the alternative for some of those guys would be to wait until the deadline to offer arb before cutting them loose. Bowden could've held on to them quite a while on the faint hope he could trade them. I didn't say it was a nice thing that was unique to him. Cleveland was nice to let Boone know where he stands right away as well. If the Reds let Kim,Lohse, etc know their status quickly, that will be a nice thing too. Don't get so defensive everytime someone compliments Bowden :)

REDREAD
10-04-2006, 12:49 PM
I hope the Reds don't pick them up. They need pitchers with stuff that miss bats. We have pitch-to-contact guys out the wazoo.
.

While I'd like the Reds to have the ultimate goal of aiming higher, I disagree that we have guys like that out the wazoo. We had to make a desparation trade for Kim just to have a body to insert into the rotation. We had to trot out Michalek as well.

This offseason, the Reds are going to have to sign at least 3 AAAA type pitchers just for depth, because our farm system has been a miserable failure. (Some of those guys will be stashed in Louisville, hopefully)
That's just the reality of our situation. Even if Wayne gets 20 million to spend this offseason, it's unlikely he'll be able to fill every pitching hole this team has.

Will M
10-04-2006, 02:48 PM
" The reality is that we are going to have to have a pitching cattle call this spring (both starting and bullpen) "

No we won't.

SP: Harang Arroyo Milton Lohse
RP: Bray Coffey Majik Cormier

Like them or not these are 8 major league caliber pitchers.
Milton & Lohse are certainly capable of being 4th & 5th starters.
The bullpen lacks a closer but has several solid middle relievers.
We also have Ramirez, Bailey ( at AAA for the start of the season ), Claussen & Belisle.

I could also see WK resigning Weathers & Schowenweis.

The team needs another solid starter to go with Harang & Arroyo.
We don't need a bunch of rejects in spring training

- Will

P.S. I am SHOCKED at the incredibly low quality pitchers who are pitching early in the playoffs. David Wells vs Jeff Weaver for game 2.
I believe the Mets are starting a rookie for game 1.
The Twins lose game 1 & run out Biff Bonzer ( sp ) for game 2.
Amazing.

Doc. Scott
10-04-2006, 09:16 PM
Isn't Franklin a free agent though?

Oh, crap, you're right! LOCK HIM UP, FAST!

I'm not trying to mock you.

But I'd like to propose a nickname for these scrap-heap types: Franklins. They pitch like one, and their market price is about a hundred bucks.

Feelin' like a hundred bucks? Exchange "good luck"s.

Tom Servo
10-04-2006, 09:24 PM
Oh, crap, you're right! LOCK HIM UP, FAST!

I'm not trying to mock you.

But I'd like to propose a nickname for these scrap-heap types: Franklins. They pitch like one, and their market price is about a hundred bucks.

Feelin' like a hundred bucks? Exchange "good luck"s.
We just need to find a few Franklins who won't give up so many Miltons.

REDREAD
10-05-2006, 09:30 AM
" The reality is that we are going to have to have a pitching cattle call this spring (both starting and bullpen) "

No we won't.

SP: Harang Arroyo Milton Lohse
RP: Bray Coffey Majik Cormier

Like them or not these are 8 major league caliber pitchers.
Milton & Lohse are certainly capable of being 4th & 5th starters.
The bullpen lacks a closer but has several solid middle relievers.
We also have Ramirez, Bailey ( at AAA for the start of the season ), Claussen & Belisle.



The reason we are going to have a cattle call is because there is no depth in the organization. That's why Kim and Michalek got innings.

Milton is a big injury risk. You almost have to assume that he's going to be spending some time on the DL next year. IIRC, he has a chronic knee problem and developed some kind of arm/shoulder problem last year. Claussen is coming off surgery -- again, I forget the specifics, but he shouldn't be counted on the depth chart at this point. Any innings we get from him next year have to be considered gravy. Consider that when he was healthy with the Reds (which was most of his Reds career), he never pitched that well. If he's physically able to pitch next year, the results might be very poor (since he's coming off surgery).

Belisle was drafted in 1998. I'm guessing he will be out of options next year, considering his draft date and the fact that he spents parts of 2003-2006 in the majors. I think we have to keep him on the 25 man roster.

The Lizard is a candidate for emergency depth. I'm not sure of his option status. He was signed at 16 years old in 1999. I think players signed that young get 4 options. However, since he has 7 years in baseball without a full year in the bigs, I'm pretty sure that he's used them up. I am not positive. He may have one left.

Bailey is a candidate for depth, but you don't want to be forced to call him up due to an injury. My guess is that the Reds want to park him in AAA for at least 1/2 a year. But they may not have a choice. He might make the team in spring.

Lohse is a wild card if they bring him back. I suppose if they bring him back that he'll be making so much money that they will be commited to making him a starter the entire year.

My point is that we need to sign at least 1 body for the rotation to start the season, and we should sign at least 2 retreads to split contracts that we can place in AAA in the event of injuries who will also provide some competition in spring training. Maybe I'm being overly pessemistic in assuming Milton will go on the DL and Claussen is a longshot, but the Reds clearly did not have enough bodies to man the pitching staff last year. That also played a large factor in the team's collapse. I know that W-L is not the bestway to compare one pitcher to another, but look at the W-L of the bottom of our rotation:

Lizard 4-9
Kim 0 -1
Claussen 3-8
Michalek 2-4
Lohse as a Red 3-5

That's a combined 12-27.. Certainly room for improvement. Milton hung in there and gave us an 8-8 record. That's fine for rotation filler (even though it's overpriced). But the other guys killed our playoff hopes. A lot of innings had to be given to those guy simply because we didn't have a body to pitch in the rotation.

REDREAD
10-05-2006, 09:34 AM
I forgot to mention. The discussion about options on Belisle and the Lizard is because the Reds may not have flexiblity with these guys. If Wayne trades for more pitching, they may have to be released because there isn't room on the 25 man roster for them. Belisle might slip through waviers, but I doubt the Lizard will, since he's a young starting pitcher with a pulse.

The lack of depth on the Reds pitching is very pronounced when an injury occurs and they have no one that is close to competent (except Bailey) to call up.

shredda2000
10-05-2006, 10:59 AM
We just need to find a few Franklins who won't give up so many Miltons.

Hey...I am a Franklin (my middle name anyway) :D

Will M
10-05-2006, 03:24 PM
find a couple pitchers who don't have to go on the 40 man roster to invite to spring training to be emergency depth

i'll stand by my point that we will have a decent staff in 2007

IF Dunn can be traded for a decent starter & Weathers returns I think the pitching will be ok/good. Now about the offense...

remember - the problem in the 2nd half of 2006 was the anemic offense