PDA

View Full Version : Trade slobberknocker proposal



Wheelhouse
10-07-2006, 03:23 AM
Griffey & Dunn & Milton & $5.5MM to
SEATTLE

for

Ichiro & Raul Ibanez

Why it makes sense:

a) Griffey might accept a deal to Seattle, especially if Dunn were in the deal.

b) The Mariners only have 2 starting slots locked up for next year. Milton would do much better at Safeco.

c) The Reds pick up $5.5MM extra to work with

d) The M's need a CF.

e) The Reds IMMEDIATELY upgrade heavily on defense with an Ibanez, Freel/Deno, Ichiro Outfield. The also become vastly more athletic. The M's get a huge draw with Griffey (can you hear Sportscenter?), and a guy who can regularly find the deep fences at Safeco with Dunn. Milton's pitching style is perfect for Safeco and he could return to his top Twins form there as a solid middle rotation guy.

GAC
10-07-2006, 06:00 AM
Sorry - it doesn't make sense. ;)

RedLegSuperStar
10-07-2006, 08:10 AM
No thanks.. Ichiro and Ibanez both are solid year in and year out.. but if you are dealing Dunn and Junior.. pitching is a must

Wheelhouse
10-07-2006, 12:38 PM
No thanks.. Ichiro and Ibanez both are solid year in and year out.. but if you are dealing Dunn and Junior.. pitching is a must

The added $ could be used for pitching...

Highlifeman21
10-07-2006, 10:07 PM
Griffey & Dunn & Milton & $5.5MM to
SEATTLE

for

Ichiro & Raul Ibanez

Why it makes sense:

a) Griffey might accept a deal to Seattle, especially if Dunn were in the deal.

b) The Mariners only have 2 starting slots locked up for next year. Milton would do much better at Safeco.

c) The Reds pick up $5.5MM extra to work with

d) The M's need a CF.

e) The Reds IMMEDIATELY upgrade heavily on defense with an Ibanez, Freel/Deno, Ichiro Outfield. The also become vastly more athletic. The M's get a huge draw with Griffey (can you hear Sportscenter?), and a guy who can regularly find the deep fences at Safeco with Dunn. Milton's pitching style is perfect for Safeco and he could return to his top Twins form there as a solid middle rotation guy.

According to this, we're trading two of our everyday OF and Milton AND $5.5 Mil to the Mariners for Ichiro and a ridiculously overrated Raul Ibanez?

Did I read your proposal wrong?

You say we pick up the extra $5.5 Mil to work with, but according to your original equation, we're sending the M's the cash.

As for the improved defense, Denorfia and Ichiro would be great for the OF, but picking up Raul Ibanez, while giving up BOTH Dunn and Griffey, would be such a huge downgrade offensively that whatever defense Mr. Ibanez could bring to the table would be a moot point. Ibanez + Ichiro < Dunn + Griffey. You're sacrificing so much offense in that trade, and the defense gained can't justify the move.

Krusty
10-07-2006, 11:02 PM
Couldn't help myself but when I saw slobberknocker proposal my mouth started to water. Your trade proposal? Can't see Seattle doing it.

Wheelhouse
10-07-2006, 11:23 PM
According to this, we're trading two of our everyday OF and Milton AND $5.5 Mil to the Mariners for Ichiro and a ridiculously overrated Raul Ibanez?

Did I read your proposal wrong?

You say we pick up the extra $5.5 Mil to work with, but according to your original equation, we're sending the M's the cash.

As for the improved defense, Denorfia and Ichiro would be great for the OF, but picking up Raul Ibanez, while giving up BOTH Dunn and Griffey, would be such a huge downgrade offensively that whatever defense Mr. Ibanez could bring to the table would be a moot point. Ibanez + Ichiro < Dunn + Griffey. You're sacrificing so much offense in that trade, and the defense gained can't justify the move.

If the Reds send $5.5 mil to the M's they will be paying $5.5 mil. less than the combined salaries of Griffey, Dunn and Milton. And how is Ibanez overrated? 33 HRs, 123 RBIs, .289 avg , and 103 runs scored this year. Would easily be the top offensive player on this team. And Ibanez power numbers could go past Dunn's at GABP.

pedro
10-07-2006, 11:37 PM
If Seattle needs a CF why would they want Griffey?

Wheelhouse
10-07-2006, 11:48 PM
If Seattle needs a CF why would they want Griffey?

Ticket sales would be huge.

Krusty
10-07-2006, 11:57 PM
Let me throw this three-way deal that would involve the Reds, Orioles and Angels:

Reds trade: Adam Dunn
Reds receive: RHP Ervin Santana, OF Jay Gibbons

Baltimore trades: Shortstop Miguel Tejada, OF Jay Gibbons
Baltimore receives: OF Adam Dunn, shortstop Erick Aybar

Angels trade: RHP Ervin Santana, shortsop Erick Aybar
Angels receive: Shortstop Miguel Tejada

Reds: Reds get a solid rotation with Harang, Arroyo and Santana as the big three. The remainder of the rotation would be filled with the likes of Milton, Claussen, Lohse and hopefully Bailey by Memorial Day. Trading Dunn gives the Reds more payroll flex to pursue free agents. Gibbons is a lefthanded bat that can be an option in RF (Griffey or Freel would shift to LF).

Baltimore: It is no secret that Tejada wants out of Baltimore. But the Orioles lack punch already and any deal involving Tejada would require at least a big bat coming back. Dunn provides that and Aybar gets a shot of being the everyday shortstop where he is being blocked by Orlando Cabrera in the Angels depth chart.

Angels: Angels are looking for power in the corners and a centerfielder. Tejada would play third base for the Angels. With young starters like Weaver and Saunders impressive last season and with the expected return of Bartolo Colon, the Angels can afford to part with a starter for that protection for Guerrero in the lineup.

KronoRed
10-08-2006, 12:27 AM
Ticket sales would be huge.

I doubt it, JR burned bridges all over the place leaving Seattle.

MWM
10-08-2006, 12:33 AM
Making moves for ticket sales and not because it makes good baseball sense is just bad business. You'll end up losing more than you gain. And I think the Mariners leadership would be smart enough to realize this. And Griffey is well past the days where people come to see him. He doesn't play the type of baseball anymore that excites people, and name without performance isn't exciting to anyone.

Wheelhouse
10-08-2006, 12:53 AM
Making moves for ticket sales and not because it makes good baseball sense is just bad business. You'll end up losing more than you gain. And I think the Mariners leadership would be smart enough to realize this. And Griffey is well past the days where people come to see him. He doesn't play the type of baseball anymore that excites people, and name without performance isn't exciting to anyone.

Couldn't agree more, but Seattle just suffered an $88 million dollar do-nothing team. They need a new game plan and a means of selling tickets. Griffey could be used very effectively by resting him in a DH role a couple times a week, and again, Dunn and Griffey are bats that can find the seats at Safeco--they hit monster drives that leave any park.

Red in Chicago
10-08-2006, 01:25 AM
Making moves for ticket sales and not because it makes good baseball sense is just bad business. You'll end up losing more than you gain. And I think the Mariners leadership would be smart enough to realize this. And Griffey is well past the days where people come to see him. He doesn't play the type of baseball anymore that excites people, and name without performance isn't exciting to anyone.

griffey can still put my butt in the cincy seats...rarely will i make a trip to cincy if he's on the dl...i'd rather wait until i have a better chance of seeing him play...i realize i'm only one person, but i'm sure there are other out of towners that feel similar...he may be past his prime, but you only get so many chances to see one of the greatest center fielders to ever play the game...

Highlifeman21
10-08-2006, 05:21 AM
If the Reds send $5.5 mil to the M's they will be paying $5.5 mil. less than the combined salaries of Griffey, Dunn and Milton. And how is Ibanez overrated? 33 HRs, 123 RBIs, .289 avg , and 103 runs scored this year. Would easily be the top offensive player on this team. And Ibanez power numbers could go past Dunn's at GABP.

This is the same Raul Ibanez that sports a robust .344 career OBP, while only SLG over .500 only twice in his career? As for the RBI, AVG and R stats you tossed out there, RBI are teammate depedent, AVG has never been nor ever will be a great indicator of talent/skill, and R also have a teammate element to them. Ibanez did edge Dunn in winshares by 6 this year, but the last 3 years has put up 27, 19 and 13 respectively. Now if that's not the model of consistency I don't know what is.... Let's give up Dunn for that kind of production.

As for the send $5.5 Mil to the M's and then having that money then to spend on FA, you're going to have to explain the math, b/c for the life of me I can't grasp how sending the M's money frees up money for us to spend. If I'm wrong about this concept then I'm wrong, but I just don't see it right now.

Wheelhouse
10-08-2006, 05:27 AM
Because the players the Reds would send to Seattle make a total of $11MM more than the players would be receiving back. 11-5.5= $5.5 million extra the Reds would have. And news flash: there is not a SINGLE aspect of playing the game of baseball that is NOT teammate dependent. That has got to be one of the most inane arguments I've heard from your stat camp in a loooong time.

Highlifeman21
10-08-2006, 08:49 AM
Because the players the Reds would send to Seattle make a total of $11MM more than the players would be receiving back. 11-5.5= $5.5 million extra the Reds would have. And news flash: there is not a SINGLE aspect of playing the game of baseball that is NOT teammate dependent. That has got to be one of the most inane arguments I've heard from your stat camp in a loooong time.


If you're sending cash in a deal, it usually signifies you're sending the weaker talent or lesser value. If we have to send them cash, I guarantee they wouldn't do it, not that the deal helped us anyway, since we weren't getting any pitching to offset the loss of offense.

As for aspects of the game being not teammate dependent, I'm sure there are examples, I'll just have to come up with them while at work today.

Krusty
10-08-2006, 09:57 AM
And, what makes you think Griffey wants to go back to Seattle where he would have to fly constantly from coast to coast to his Orlando home? I think his 10-5 rights would stop that.

You want send Griffey elsewhere? How about Detroit where he can DH and give the kid in centerfield a break? Plus Detroit has some young arms in their system that would interest the Reds.

OnBaseMachine
10-08-2006, 11:35 AM
Here's one:

Reds deal OF Adam Dunn to the Angels for RHP Ervin Santana and one of the following: C Jeff Mathis, 3B/1B Dallas McPherson, or SS Brandon Wood (who I prefer, but doubtful the Angels deal him.)

Krusty
10-08-2006, 12:50 PM
Here's one:

Reds deal OF Adam Dunn to the Angels for RHP Ervin Santana and one of the following: C Jeff Mathis, 3B/1B Dallas McPherson, or SS Brandon Wood (who I prefer, but doubtful the Angels deal him.)

Thing is the Angels are looking for help at lst, 3rd and centerfielder. And, they prefer a righthanded bat. Now if the Reds could make it a three-way which Dunn goes to Baltimore, Tejada to the Angels and Santana to the Reds, then it makes some sense especially when the Reds get an extra 7 million to play in free agency.

Jr's Boy
10-08-2006, 02:09 PM
Griffey hated Safeco hitting wise, and could'nt leave fast enough.

TC81190
10-08-2006, 02:57 PM
This is the same Raul Ibanez that sports a robust .344 career OBP, while only SLG over .500 only twice in his career? As for the RBI, AVG and R stats you tossed out there, RBI are teammate depedent, AVG has never been nor ever will be a great indicator of talent/skill, and R also have a teammate element to them. Ibanez did edge Dunn in winshares by 6 this year, but the last 3 years has put up 27, 19 and 13 respectively. Now if that's not the model of consistency I don't know what is.... Let's give up Dunn for that kind of production.

As for the send $5.5 Mil to the M's and then having that money then to spend on FA, you're going to have to explain the math, b/c for the life of me I can't grasp how sending the M's money frees up money for us to spend. If I'm wrong about this concept then I'm wrong, but I just don't see it right now.

And of course I'll remind you, the key to winning games is HITTING. Hits -> AVG. And the only edge Dunn had on Ibanez this year was OBP, a 13 point difference. Yeah, I'll take a 230 hitting occasional homerun hitter over a consistent-able-to-actually-hit-the-ball player. :rolleyes:

Falls City Beer
10-08-2006, 03:03 PM
I'm not overly impressed with Ervin Santana.

pedro
10-08-2006, 03:12 PM
I'm not overly impressed with Ervin Santana.

me neither. he'd be a nice pickup for the Reds but he's not nearly as good as some think he is.

redsandrails
10-08-2006, 03:14 PM
How about Edwin Encarnacion, David Ross, Elizardo Ramirez and Tyler Pelland to the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera and a PTBNL. Would they do it? Marlins are not going to be able to afford Cabrera once he hits arbitration.... They have plenty of young players too- Willingham, Ross, Abercrombie and Hermida in the OF... Ramirez, Uggla and Jacobs in the IF. Ross fills the hole at C and Encarnacion is a cheaper replacement for Miguel C.

As far as Dunn we need to explore trading him to Texas. A Dunn + Lohse + a fringe prospect for Mark Teixeira would be very attractive. We could then resign Aurilia to play 2B/3B for the time being, lock Teixeira up to a LTC and trade Votto. If we did the first trade then Cabrera could play OF for the time being with Aurilia an effective and cheap option at 3B.

I also would be in favor of packaging Freel, Strandridge, and a Bergolla type to the A's for Joe Kennedy- who could be a decent closer even.

Ok... here's a slobberknocker to think about.... Griffey, Milton and Szymanski to the Mariners for Adrian Beltre and 7M (1M for 07', 3M for 08', and 09').
Mariners could use Griffey in CF for a little... Milton would pitch well there and Szymanski is icing on the cake. They could also target a Hillenbrand type to play 3B.

Then we would have to trade LaRue... a salary dump trade of LaRue and D. Wise to the Jays for Josh Towers and 1M would be good (Towers could be a good mop up guy).

AS far as free agents, F. Tatis would be a good bench pickup. J. Cruz Jr. for less than a million would be a good move too IMO. Signing B. Zito to a 5 yr. 60M deal and S. Kline to a 2 yr. 6M deal would be good too.

M . Perez + Olmedo + Hatteburg (to replace Broussard) for K. Shoppach deal would be good too..

Then we could deal J. Votto + Majewksi to the O's for D. Cabrera.

Shoppach C
M. Teixeira 1B
R. Aurilia 2B
A. Beltre 3B
B. Phillips SS
M. Cabrera LF
Donorfia CF
Griffey RF
-----
43M

Valentin
Castro
Tatis
Hopper
Cruz Jr.
-----
4.5M

Zito
Arroyo
Harang
D. Cabrera
Claussen/later Bailey
-----
21.5M

Kennedy
Kline
Coffey
Cormier
Bray
Beslisle
Towers
-----
11M

Could be done with an 80M payroll.

flyer85
10-08-2006, 04:57 PM
No thanks.. Ichiro and Ibanez both are solid year in and year out.. but if you are dealing Dunn and Junior.. pitching is a mustreally the catch-22 the Reds are in. Even with Dunn and Jr they may not have enough offense to win and right now they are lacking enough pitching to win. If the trade Dunn and Jr for pitching they are woefully short of offense.

KronoRed
10-08-2006, 05:05 PM
Griffey hated Safeco hitting wise, and could'nt leave fast enough.
Yep..10-5..he's not going west.

WVRed
10-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Couldn't agree more, but Seattle just suffered an $88 million dollar do-nothing team. They need a new game plan and a means of selling tickets. Griffey could be used very effectively by resting him in a DH role a couple times a week, and again, Dunn and Griffey are bats that can find the seats at Safeco--they hit monster drives that leave any park.

Seattle isnt dealing Ichiro anytime soon. While I agree with MWM's post wholeheartedly, the Mariners are not going to deal their star attraction and take the financial hit that they would incur.

Ichiro is the Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, and Wayne Gretzky of Japan all rolled into one. Japan even ran vacation packages in the US which included airfare, lodging, and tickets to three Mariners games for people to see Ichiro. If the Mariners dealt Ichiro, it would hit them harder than trading Griffey did.

Should they trade him? Yes. Will they? No.