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View Full Version : Narron rumblings--per Lance



Wheelhouse
10-10-2006, 02:06 PM
Things I'm told today....Narron rumblings
Seems Jerry and Rich Aurilia went nose to nose with a week left in the season, and things got "pretty ugly". Rich told those that saw it, he wasn't coming back if Jerry was in charge in 2007. But I'm told money has a way of talking and if Rich doesn't get a better offer, don't be surprised if Rich returns.
Also....
Rheal Cormier and Jerry had words in the final week of the season over Rheal's role.
The Reds told Rheal from the start that he would only throw in close games when the game was on the line....but through most of the season, they used him all over. Then, with two weeks left, Jerry went up to him and said, sorry we have used you all over, the last two weeks, you will only throw when the game is on the line. The very next day, they got him hot in the pen with a 7 run lead or something. He went nuts on Jerry too.
******
Seems Rich might not want to go to SF, just wants to be away from Jerry.

Blimpie
10-10-2006, 02:15 PM
Sounds like much ado about nothing.

savafan
10-10-2006, 02:28 PM
Sounds like much ado about nothing.

Oh no, it's something. The beginning of the media's turn on Jerry Narron.

Matt700wlw
10-10-2006, 03:37 PM
It's something...could lead to nothing...but it looks like perhaps the clubhouse isn't sold on him either...

Ltlabner
10-10-2006, 03:39 PM
I posted this on reds live also.....

One of the areas I give Narron credit for is the handling of the clubhouse and egos. He was able to jungle the 40 bazallion roster changes and on the surface keep everybody happy.

Frankly, IMO his handling of the clubhouse stuff is his best strength. If more of these stories bubble up and discontent spreads then I may have to step into the "it's time to go Jerry" camp.

I think any effective orginization has to start with those in the orginization trusting the leader. If he/she doesn't have that trust forget any sustanable, effective action from the followers.

It will be very interesting to see if more of these stories surface (I'll need more than one mention in on an internet blog to put any stock in this). BC strikes me as the kind of leader that would not like to hear that his manager can't handle his troops.

TeamBoone
10-10-2006, 03:46 PM
Also from Reds Live (sorry, I read that one first but still feel the same):

It didn't say Rich's problem was a "beef", the word people keep using to describe the situation though Lance didn't. It said they had words; it could have been over anything, even a trivial thing... I'm sure tempers were VERY short all around in the clubhouse during the last couple weeks.

It seems a lot of assumptions are being made with not much available information.

As far as Cormier goes, why on earth would one ever tell a pitcher that he'll only pitch in tight situations? I've never heard of such a thing. You choose your bullpen pitcher as the game situation dictates, while taking into consideration how much the guy's already pitched recently and who else is availabe (or not).

And why even bother to take this public now, a week and a half after the season has ended?

I totally agree with whomever said some things should be left in the clubhouse. And, like I've said more than once in the past, the media has way too much access to the clubhouse for far too long before and after games.

The clubhouse is the players' home away from home and yet they have no privacy except for one hour prior to game time (and a lot of that time is spent on the field). The media has its ears everywhere pretty much all of the time. I'd find that quite frustrating in and of itself if I were on the team.

A lot of the stuff they report isn't the result of an interview; instead it's something that's overheard during a private conversation (or at least as private as it can be under the circumstances) or something that's observed (as the RA/JN incident here). Why not either leave it alone, or reveal what the dispute was over? And if the writer doesn't know, then don't report it. Half truths leave a lot of room for speculation, which is often the intent of the writer, be it right or be it wrong.

flyer85
10-10-2006, 04:03 PM
As far as Cormier goes, why on earth would one ever tell a pitcher that he'll only pitch in tight situations? especially a bad one.

Reds4Life
10-10-2006, 04:06 PM
It's something...could lead to nothing...but it looks like perhaps the clubhouse isn't sold on him either...

But Wayne Krivsky is, sadly.

Now that Torre is staying Piniella's options are going to be limited to either Chicago or Washington. I doubt he'd be interested in the SF job since he wasn't a fan of cross country flights. If the Reds are going to make a change, the clock is ticking down pretty quickly.

flyer85
10-10-2006, 04:10 PM
maybe it was just a bad burrito, I know what those can do.

Matt700wlw
10-10-2006, 04:21 PM
But Wayne Krivsky is, sadly.

Now that Torre is staying Piniella's options are going to be limited to either Chicago or Washington. I doubt he'd be interested in the SF job since he wasn't a fan of cross country flights. If the Reds are going to make a change, the clock is ticking down pretty quickly.

I don't think he'll go to either Washington or Chicago...

Reds4Life
10-10-2006, 04:24 PM
I don't think he'll go to either Washington or Chicago...

No other east cost or midwest jobs available unless someone else gets fired.

dabvu2498
10-10-2006, 04:26 PM
Texas is still available, too, isn't it???

Matt700wlw
10-10-2006, 04:28 PM
No other east cost or midwest jobs available unless someone else gets fired.

Did Texas hire anybody yet?

San Fran's available.....but not sure if he wants to go to the west coast

Reds4Life
10-10-2006, 04:30 PM
Did Texas hire anybody yet?

San Fran's available.....but not sure if he wants to go to the west coast

I forgot Texas. San Fran is probably out, too far from Florida.

Strikes Out Looking
10-10-2006, 04:30 PM
I posted this on reds live also.....

One of the areas I give Narron credit for is the handling of the clubhouse and egos. He was able to jungle the 40 bazallion roster changes and on the surface keep everybody happy.

Frankly, IMO his handling of the clubhouse stuff is his best strength. If more of these stories bubble up and discontent spreads then I may have to step into the "it's time to go Jerry" camp.

I think any effective orginization has to start with those in the orginization trusting the leader. If he/she doesn't have that trust forget any sustanable, effective action from the followers.

It will be very interesting to see if more of these stories surface (I'll need more than one mention in on an internet blog to put any stock in this). BC strikes me as the kind of leader that would not like to hear that his manager can't handle his troops.

As a representative of the "it's time to go Jerry" camp, we would be glad to have you aboard.

As to the Pinella to D.C. story, this morning's post said Lou turned them down after his interview, saying he didn't want to be with a rebuilding club as he did that in Tampa Bay (and we all know how that worked out). I'm not so sure, the Cubs are that much better (they may be worse) than the Nats, so he may just have to wait for something else and he may be available come May. However, I'd like to see him take the helm well before Spring Training (even though I, sadly, don't believe Narron is going to be let go).

Reds Fanatic
10-10-2006, 04:31 PM
Did Texas hire anybody yet?

San Fran's available.....but not sure if he wants to go to the west coast
No Texas has not hired anyone. Yesterday they were rumored to be very interested in Joe Torre but since it now looks like he is coming back with the Yankees the Rangers are still looking for a new manager.

Reds4Life
10-10-2006, 04:32 PM
Just saw this on ESPN, Lou has told the Nationals to get bent. :laugh:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2618929

Come on big Bob, make it happen for the Reds.

Matt700wlw
10-10-2006, 04:35 PM
Just saw this on ESPN, Lou has told the Nationals to get bent. :laugh:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2618929

Come on big Bob, make it happen for the Reds.

That'd be sweet...

Matt700wlw
10-10-2006, 04:46 PM
ESPN reporting that Lou is having preliminary talks with the Giants...

RedLegSuperStar
10-10-2006, 05:13 PM
Just saw this on ESPN, Lou has told the Nationals to get bent. :laugh:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2618929

Come on big Bob, make it happen for the Reds.


See he has some Reds in him!

I say give him an offer. Bob brought him in last season when the new owners took over. The ownership wants to win, so besides the money and contract issue (both Lou and Jerry's) should be proof enough for Lou to at least consider it. If not you still have Narron under contract.

KronoRed
10-10-2006, 05:17 PM
Rich will get a better offer, maybe that team can then hire Narron ;)

wheels
10-10-2006, 05:17 PM
Jerry's got a schizophrenic way of managing player roles and lineups.

I'm sure that if it bothers us, it probably bugs the players even more.

I'm not surprised at all by this.

reds44
10-10-2006, 05:24 PM
I side with Rich and Rheal if for no other reason to get rid of Narron.

pedro
10-10-2006, 05:25 PM
Jerry's got a schizophrenic way of managing player roles and lineups.

I'm sure that if it bothers us, it probably bugs the players even more.

I'm not surprised at all by this.


He certainly isn't a fan of continuity.

I'd imagine it isn;t easy coming to work not being able to predict from day to day what the hell is going on.

wheels
10-10-2006, 05:29 PM
He certainly isn't a fan of continuity.

I'd imagine it isn;t easy coming to work not being able to predict from day to day what the hell is going on.


Ya know, I've never been more dumbfounded about a team in my life.

I honestly could not make heads or tails of that team from about August on.

Maybe personal issues in my life had something to do with it, but suspect not.

My head is just now starting to clear.....What a mess.

Roy Tucker
10-10-2006, 05:59 PM
I'm not sure Piniella would be a good fit for the current day Reds. Piniella is a guy you want to bring in for a team that is "close", i.e. has a lot of talent, can't get over the hump, and needs a fire lit under it. Like what Jim Leyland did for the Tigers this year. Piniella's tenure at Tampa Bay was les than successful.

I hate to say it, but I don't think the current configuration of the Reds is "close".

wheels
10-10-2006, 06:13 PM
I'm not sure Piniella would be a good fit for the current day Reds. Piniella is a guy you want to bring in for a team that is "close", i.e. has a lot of talent, can't get over the hump, and needs a fire lit under it. Like what Jim Leyland did for the Tigers this year. Piniella's tenure at Tampa Bay was les than successful.

I hate to say it, but I don't think the current configuration of the Reds is "close".

Any fire that gets lit under the Reds needs to be attached to a fuse.

Falls City Beer
10-10-2006, 06:16 PM
Why would Lou come to Tampa II?

Lou wants to manage a contender, not a team with yellow CAUTION tape wrapped around its exterior.

Reds4Life
10-10-2006, 06:19 PM
Why would Lou come to Tampa II?

Lou wants to manage a contender, not a team with yellow CAUTION tape wrapped around its exterior.

We are hardly Tampa II, and the payroll is supposed to be around $75 million next year.

wheels
10-10-2006, 06:20 PM
We are hardly Tampa II, and the payroll is supposed to be around $75 million next year.

Yeah, but there's still the issue of that caution tape.

Falls City Beer
10-10-2006, 06:24 PM
We are hardly Tampa II, and the payroll is supposed to be around $75 million next year.

Well, the Reds draw more fans, true, but the teams really aren't all that far off in talent.

But what I meant most by the comment was that Cincy's a perennial dog, like Tampa. Different fleas, but a dog, year in and year out for six years.

And plenty of bad blood, drama, and mismanagement to go round.

Cedric
10-10-2006, 06:28 PM
Well, the Reds draw more fans, true, but the teams really aren't all that far off in talent.

But what I meant most by the comment was that Cincy's a perennial dog, like Tampa. Different fleas, but a dog, year in and year out for six years.

And plenty of bad blood, drama, and mismanagement to go round.

Sure, other than being completely different they are the same.

Falls City Beer
10-10-2006, 06:33 PM
At the time, Tampa was pitched as a team on the rise. Lou bought into it. I don't think he'll take his chances on a similar old wives' tale from Cast and Kriv vis. Cincy.

This team is years from contention unless they break the FA bank.

How about: Washingon Nationals II or Texas Rangers II? Those are the Reds' bunkmates.

reds44
10-10-2006, 06:34 PM
At the time, Tampa was pitched as a team on the rise. Lou bought into it. I don't think he'll take his chances on a similar old wives' tale from Cast and Kriv vis. Cincy.

This team is years from contention unless they break the FA bank.

How about: Washingon Nationals II or Texas Rangers II? Those are the Reds' bunkmates.

We contended this year.

Falls City Beer
10-10-2006, 06:35 PM
We contended this year.

Like a pewter dirigible.

kbrake
10-10-2006, 06:55 PM
I'm with FCB on this one guys. Sorry but this team is not that close to winning. Being 20 games out at the deadline this season would have done more to help this team in the coming years, then having the season go the way it did. If Lou wants nothing to do with Texas or Washington I dont see why he would want to come to Cincinnati. Sorry.

REDREAD
10-10-2006, 06:56 PM
Why would Lou come to Tampa II?

Lou wants to manage a contender, not a team with yellow CAUTION tape wrapped around its exterior.

That's my thought as well. We aren't exactly close to contending.

If Lou wanted a project, he might as well take Chicago. At least they have money to dump into the team.

Of course we have the whole offseason and I expect some trades, but as the roster stands now, I don't think adding Homer is going to offset the expected declines of a few of the other players (and players subtracted from the first half of last year). In other words, if the season started with the current roster, I'd expect a worse W-L record than this year.

WMR
10-10-2006, 07:03 PM
I'm with FCB on this one guys. Sorry but this team is not that close to winning. Being 20 games out at the deadline this season would have done more to help this team in the coming years, then having the season go the way it did. If Lou wants nothing to do with Texas or Washington I dont see why he would want to come to Cincinnati. Sorry.


I could not agree with you more.

We would have avoided the misguided Lopez/Kearns trade and forced this organization to realize that this team needs a massive overhaul, conducted during the off-season, when our very limited tradeable resources could have been maximized.

I'm beginning to worry more and more that Cast's intentions of 'winning now' will result in a refusal to see this team for what it is and bring on more and more (s)crappy vets rather than going with youth and rebuilding.

BoydsOfSummer
10-10-2006, 11:51 PM
Somebody hire Lou and get him out of the booth. Please.

Wheelhouse
10-11-2006, 12:09 AM
Look, the major problem I have with Krivsky, and I don't have many, is that he's looking at the manager situation all wrong--the question IS NOT whether Narron did a good job or not. The question IS whether the Reds have the best manager currently available. Manager is the one part of a ballclub that the Reds can and must afford a top guy. It is the part of a club that can improve the most quickly. And when you have to out-work, and out-strategize the big market clubs, you have to have the very best available. It makes absolutely no difference whether Narron did a good job or not. Evaluate the talent of Narron vs. the managers out there, and move from there.

pedro
10-11-2006, 02:43 AM
Look, the major problem I have with Krivsky, and I don't have many, is that he's looking at the manager situation all wrong--the question IS NOT whether Narron did a good job or not. The question IS whether the Reds have the best manager currently available. Manager is the one part of a ballclub that the Reds can and must afford a top guy. It is the part of a club that can improve the most quickly. And when you have to out-work, and out-strategize the big market clubs, you have to have the very best available. It makes absolutely no difference whether Narron did a good job or not. Evaluate the talent of Narron vs. the managers out there, and move from there.

Not that I wouldn't like to see Narron replaced but if the Reds were to approach the managers position with that attitude each year it would quickly become very difficult to attract good candidates IMO. The same goes with Krivsky. MLB is a relatively small business community.

Ron Madden
10-11-2006, 04:10 AM
Nothing would please me more than Wayne & Jerry turning this team around. I do have my doubts of that ever happening. I hope I'm wrong.

We hear and read the same old qoutes of pitching, defense & run production.

Again, I hope I'm wrong here but IMHO Kriviski & Narron have yet to prove the ability to identify those talents or to put them in place to succeed.

Ron Madden
10-11-2006, 05:14 AM
Also from Reds Live (sorry, I read that one first but still feel the same):

It didn't say Rich's problem was a "beef", the word people keep using to describe the situation though Lance didn't. It said they had words; it could have been over anything, even a trivial thing... I'm sure tempers were VERY short all around in the clubhouse during the last couple weeks.

It seems a lot of assumptions are being made with not much available information.

As far as Cormier goes, why on earth would one ever tell a pitcher that he'll only pitch in tight situations? I've never heard of such a thing. You choose your bullpen pitcher as the game situation dictates, while taking into consideration how much the guy's already pitched recently and who else is availabe (or not).

And why even bother to take this public now, a week and a half after the season has ended?

I totally agree with whomever said some things should be left in the clubhouse. And, like I've said more than once in the past, the media has way too much access to the clubhouse for far too long before and after games.

The clubhouse is the players' home away from home and yet they have no privacy except for one hour prior to game time (and a lot of that time is spent on the field). The media has its ears everywhere pretty much all of the time. I'd find that quite frustrating in and of itself if I were on the team.

A lot of the stuff they report isn't the result of an interview; instead it's something that's overheard during a private conversation (or at least as private as it can be under the circumstances) or something that's observed (as the RA/JN incident here). Why not either leave it alone, or reveal what the dispute was over? And if the writer doesn't know, then don't report it. Half truths leave a lot of room for speculation, which is often the intent of the writer, be it right or be it wrong.

I agree, There is no real need for these beat writers to hang out in "The Teams Clubhouse" all day long.

The Players and Coaches should have more than one hour before the game to be together as a team.

GAC
10-11-2006, 05:54 AM
Seems Jerry and Rich Aurilia went nose to nose with a week left in the season, and things got "pretty ugly". Rich told those that saw it, he wasn't coming back if Jerry was in charge in 2007.

Looks like Rich just jumped up on alot of people's list. :lol:

If this is true, then RA will be gone because Narron will be the manager next year.

GAC
10-11-2006, 06:02 AM
As to the Pinella to D.C. story, this morning's post said Lou turned them down after his interview, saying he didn't want to be with a rebuilding club as he did that in Tampa Bay (and we all know how that worked out).

Which is why I don't think he'll come here either. Lou is not a "rebuilder". He didn't build the Reds team that won it in '90, nor the M's team. IMO - it's called being in the right place at the right time.

Lou will go to a big market team that will have the revenue to spend.

Wheelhouse
10-11-2006, 11:51 AM
Not that I wouldn't like to see Narron replaced but if the Reds were to approach the managers position with that attitude each year it would quickly become very difficult to attract good candidates IMO. The same goes with Krivsky. MLB is a relatively small business community.

Explain. Though I think I may know what you're getting at. To make what I'm saying more specific--I don't thing the Reds should operate on the margin EVERY YEAR. Pinella is in a class with the top managers out there. You wouldn't cash in Lou for Davey Johnson or Joe Torre. But in Narron, we have a manager who has never had a winning season in his MLB career. NEVER. Pinella is in a higher BRACKET. The Reds need to be in that bracket.

GAC
10-11-2006, 11:59 AM
Pinella is in a class with the top managers out there.

Because he had top class talent around him. He's not going to have that level of talent in Cincy, which is why I don't think you'll see him ever come back.

My impression of Pinella is that talent is purchased, not developed.

Do I think Pinella is a bad manager? No. I just don't think he's as great a manager as some seem to think. I feel the same about Torre.

Give me a guy like Leyland any day.

redsmetz
10-11-2006, 04:12 PM
Explain. Though I think I may know what you're getting at. To make what I'm saying more specific--I don't thing the Reds should operate on the margin EVERY YEAR. Pinella is in a class with the top managers out there. You wouldn't cash in Lou for Davey Johnson or Joe Torre. But in Narron, we have a manager who has never had a winning season in his MLB career. NEVER. Pinella is in a higher BRACKET. The Reds need to be in that bracket.

As many of us keep pointing out, Joe Torre wasn't setting the world on fire in his start as a manager. After his fourth season with the dreadful New York Mets, he was 245-358 (.410). Narron is 260-290 (.472). LaRussa's wasn't much better than Narron's after about four years.

BRM
10-11-2006, 04:19 PM
As many of us keep pointing out, Joe Torre wasn't setting the world on fire in his start as a manager. After his fourth season with the dreadful New York Mets, he was 245-358 (.410). Narron is 260-290 (.472). LaRussa's wasn't much better than Narron's after about four years.

At least LaRussa had a division title and a couple of above .500 seasons in his first four years.

redsmetz
10-11-2006, 04:44 PM
At least LaRussa had a division title and a couple of above .500 seasons in his first four years.

While he had two seasons over .500 (including the split year of 1981, he was helped by the first half), he did not win a division title until his 5th year and that was followed by finishes of 5th, 3rd and 5th again while in Chicago. He was 522-510 (.506) in his years at Chicago.

The point is that every good manager had to start out somewhere and ultimately become the seasoned manager they became.

Here's another one for you. Late 50's, first in the American League (3 years), then to the NL, through the first year with that team - 231-313
(.425) - had two more years with the first NL club before moving on to his second team where he led them to the World Series in his third year at the second NL club. His final season was a razor close 2nd place finish, albeit very bittersweet - I know the history buffs here can say who it is.

BRM
10-11-2006, 04:46 PM
While he had two seasons over .500 (including the split year of 1981, he was helped by the first half), he did not win a division title until his 5th year and that was followed by finishes of 5th, 3rd and 5th again while in Chicago. He was 522-510 (.506) in his years at Chicago.


Good catch, it was year five when he won his first division.