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SanDiegoRed
10-11-2006, 11:02 AM
If there had been a Reds Zone in years gone by who would have been the Reds whipping boy? Can you imagine if there had been a Redszone in 1971 and members would have gotten ahold of Johnny Bench, coming off a monster year in 1970? He would have been run out of town because of his terrible year. There are many examples I am sure. What are your favorites?

Chip R
10-11-2006, 11:05 AM
If there had been a Reds Zone in years gone by who would have been the Reds whipping boy? Can you imagine if there had been a Redszone in 1971 and members would have gotten ahold of Johnny Bench, coming off a monster year in 1970? He would have been run out of town because of his terrible year. There are many examples I am sure. What are your favorites?


I think most of the team - Sparky and Howsam included - would have been ran out of town in '71.

919191
10-11-2006, 11:13 AM
Well, Tolan's torn Achilles was due to poor off season conditioning. :D

Redsland
10-11-2006, 11:25 AM
In years gone by?

Well, in 2000 it was Dante Bichette. Or Brian Hunter. Where are they now?

In 2001 it was Pokey Reese. Or Dmitri Young. How are they lookin'?

In 2002 it was Reggie Taylor. Or Joey Hamilton. Where are they now?

In 2003 it was Aaron Boone. Or Jimmy Haynes. How are they lookin'?

In 2004 it was Phil Norton. Or Todd Van Poppel. Where are they now?

In 2005 it was Danny Graves. Or Ramon Oritz. How are they lookin'?

Add in the Tim Hummels and Andy Machados and Ricky Stones and Ruben Mateos and Josias Manzanillos of the world, and I'd say we have a pretty good track record of identifying the players most deserving of derision.

Danny Serafini
10-11-2006, 11:44 AM
When every player gets derided it's easy to point out the ones that were correct.

Joseph
10-11-2006, 11:54 AM
When every player gets derided it's easy to point out the ones that were correct.

:clap:

redsupport
10-11-2006, 11:55 AM
Do you think red zoners would have disparaged the performance of Len Boehmer?

Redsland
10-11-2006, 11:56 AM
When every season ends with a losing record, it's easy to spot suckitude.

cumberlandreds
10-11-2006, 12:19 PM
I wonder what would have happened on Redszone after the 73 playoffs? The Reds were heavy favorites in 73 and lost in five games to the Mets.

REDREAD
10-11-2006, 12:29 PM
In years gone by?


Add in Jr, Guillen, Aurillia, LaRue, Larkin, Reggie Sanders, Hancock, Casey, Weathers (both this year and last year for a spell, as well as his first tour of duty), Williamson, Reitsma, Bret Boone.. and probably some others I can't recall. Not that all these guys were super stars, but they were solid players.

There's been plenty of good players whipped on this board. Aaron Boone was a good player as well until he hurt his knee. Bichette was a decent player when he was a Red (his OPS was practically identical to Casey and Young who were loved at the time). I always thought Bichette was hated mainly because of his age and salary. But he produced, and Bowden was right when he said that Bichette was easy to retrade. Considering we gave up very little to get Bichette (I think it was Belinda after he crashed and some other filler), I'd call it a good trade.

Heck, even Reese wasn't that bad here during his tour of duty. I think he was hated more for his comments to the press than anything else. Again, I'm not saying Reese was great, but when you stack his years as a Red up against Clayton and Castro, he's not that bad. I didn't cry when they dumped him or anything, but he wasn't horrible as a Red. In fact, he was one of the better players to come out of the Reds farm system in the past 10 years (I know, faint praise).

redsupport
10-11-2006, 12:40 PM
Do you think red zoners would have approved of trading Curt Flood? Mike Cuellar? Claude Osteen? Charlie Liebrandt? Milt Wilcox? Ross Grimsley? Mike Caldwell?

Falls City Beer
10-11-2006, 12:47 PM
When every player gets derided it's easy to point out the ones that were correct.

Nah, a whipping a boy is a whipping boy, not someone who gets picked on for a bad game or two.

The only players on the Reds eligible for whipping boy status are:

1. Dunn
2. Milton (deservedly so).

Everyone else the hatred comes and goes, but these two are the whipping boys, the lightning rods.

One deserves it; one doesn't. Such is life.

OldRightHander
10-11-2006, 12:59 PM
I could see the arguments over whether or not George Foster strikes out too much.

NJReds
10-11-2006, 01:07 PM
I could see the arguments over whether or not George Foster strikes out too much.


And long analytical threads about whether or not Tony Perez really is "clutch."

dabvu2498
10-11-2006, 01:56 PM
And long analytical threads about whether or not Tony Perez really is "clutch."

Don't forget Dave Concepcion's OPS.

EddieMilner
10-11-2006, 01:58 PM
When every player gets derided it's easy to point out the ones that were correct.

Best post I've ever read on Redszone.

IslandRed
10-11-2006, 02:12 PM
From what I remember of the BRM period -- and it's mostly based on stuff I'm remembering I read around the time, so bear with me if I'm wrong -- Johnny Bench seemed to be the star who caught the most heat from Reds fans, even to the point of occasional booing. Maybe it was because he was so great so young, nothing he ever did in succeeding years was ever good enough. I don't know.

cumberlandreds
10-11-2006, 02:46 PM
From what I remember of the BRM period -- and it's mostly based on stuff I'm remembering I read around the time, so bear with me if I'm wrong -- Johnny Bench seemed to be the star who caught the most heat from Reds fans, even to the point of occasional booing. Maybe it was because he was so great so young, nothing he ever did in succeeding years was ever good enough. I don't know.

Yes you are right. Bench was booed the most of any player from the BRM. IIRC he was booed pretty heavily during the 76 season. He had a subpar season offensively but more than made up for it in the World Series. It seems as though he wasn't booed nearly as much, if at all, after that series. I think the fans expected him to be at his 1970 or 72 level every year and that just wasn't possible being a catcher who caught nearly every game like he did.

Hap
10-11-2006, 02:59 PM
I suppose the Bench boo-birds at the time probably did not know much about his tumor surgery and/or his nagging shoulder injury (see mathews, gary). They expected Babe Ruth every at bat.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 03:16 PM
And long analytical threads about whether or not Tony Perez really is "clutch."

Probably some complaining that Rose hit too many singles and didn't walk enough.

NJReds
10-11-2006, 03:37 PM
Probably some complaining that Rose hit too many singles and didn't walk enough.

"Too bad about Gullett hurting his arm. I bet he'd make a great pitching coach someday." :thumbup:

westofyou
10-11-2006, 03:42 PM
Probably some complaining that Rose hit too many singles and didn't walk enough.

Pete walked more then the league average aand regularly was double digits ahead of the league in 2b's, he would have gotten killed for his lack of range at 3rd.

RANDY IN INDY
10-11-2006, 04:10 PM
The Big Red Machine did a lot of winning, had a lot of postseason appearances, and won a couple of World Championships and had a lineup that contained superstars. With that said, there would still be a lot of people complaining here on Redszone.

westofyou
10-11-2006, 04:14 PM
The Big Red Machine did a lot of winning, had a lot of postseason appearances, and won a couple of World Championships and had a lineup that contained superstars.

Who also walked and struck out more then any other team in the National League.


With that said, there would still be a lot of people complaining here on Redszone.

Without a doubt.

BRM
10-11-2006, 04:22 PM
The Big Red Machine did a lot of winning, had a lot of postseason appearances, and won a couple of World Championships and had a lineup that contained superstars. With that said, there would still be a lot of people complaining here on Redszone.

I'm sure there would have been much complaining about the team's strikeout totals.

redsupport
10-11-2006, 04:57 PM
there would have been sever disappointment about Ray Washburn not figuring in the 1970 world series

RANDY IN INDY
10-11-2006, 05:41 PM
Strikeouts with winning results>strikeouts without winning results.

BRM
10-11-2006, 05:43 PM
Strikeouts with winning results>strikeouts without winning results.

I agree with that.

RANDY IN INDY
10-11-2006, 05:45 PM
there would have been sever disappointment about Ray Washburn not figuring in the 1970 world series

Ray did get to mop up in the 7th inning of game 5. He pretty much stunk it up, giving up 2 earned runs and walking two.

:beerme:

Roy Tucker
10-11-2006, 05:48 PM
Who's the better pinch hitter, Willie Greene or Roberto Petegine?

Should Curtis Goodwin steal more?

Paul Householder vs. Duane Walker

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 08:37 PM
Why in the world did they waste a roster spot on Mike Lum......

Hap
10-11-2006, 08:52 PM
Why are they wasting a roster spot on this George Foster bum. He can play all three outfield positions -- badly.

And he only has warning track power.

I don't care if he scored the winning run in the playoffs, because he was only a pinch runner, because that was all he is good at.

redsupport
10-11-2006, 09:01 PM
I think Jay Ward and Mike Grace are better than Pete Rose

pedro
10-11-2006, 11:09 PM
In years gone by?

Well, in 2000 it was Dante Bichette. Or Brian Hunter. Where are they now?

In 2001 it was Pokey Reese. Or Dmitri Young. How are they lookin'?

In 2002 it was Reggie Taylor. Or Joey Hamilton. Where are they now?

In 2003 it was Aaron Boone. Or Jimmy Haynes. How are they lookin'?

In 2004 it was Phil Norton. Or Todd Van Poppel. Where are they now?

In 2005 it was Danny Graves. Or Ramon Oritz. How are they lookin'?

Add in the Tim Hummels and Andy Machados and Ricky Stones and Ruben Mateos and Josias Manzanillos of the world, and I'd say we have a pretty good track record of identifying the players most deserving of derision.



Tim Hummel did invent a telescope. At least he's got that going for him.

RedFanAlways1966
10-12-2006, 12:20 AM
Junior was overpaid, didn't hit for average, had no range in the field and didn't hit enough HRs. And Senior s/b a coach or manager.

Junior & Senior Kennedy of course! :p:

redsupport
10-12-2006, 12:29 AM
should LaCoss have started game three against the Bucs in 1979

Topcat
10-12-2006, 04:45 AM
[QUOTE=Redsland;1176906]In years gone by?

Well, in 2000 it was Dante Bichette. Or Brian Hunter. Where are they now?

In 2001 it was Pokey Reese. Or Dmitri Young. How are they lookin'?

In 2002 it was Reggie Taylor. Or Joey Hamilton. Where are they now?

In 2003 it was Aaron Boone. Or Jimmy Haynes. How are they lookin'?

In 2004 it was Phil Norton. Or Todd Van Poppel. Where are they now?

In 2005 it was Danny Graves. Or Ramon Oritz. How are they lookin'?

Add in the Tim Hummels and Andy Machados and Ricky Stones and Ruben Mateos and Josias Manzanillos of the world, and I'd say we have a pretty good track record of identifying the players most deserving of derision.[


Holy revisionary history. Yes I realize thats the point of this thread lol. But lets go to the present now Phillips was thought by many to be a waste considering the log jam of infielders, Aurillia was Puffys whipping boy along with Randa in the previous year in fact he "LOATHED" there aquitis. David Ross was considered pure crap considering we had a great platoon of Larue and Valentin. Lohse was pure garbage and schoenweiss was a *yawner*, I do add there was some forgettables such as Mays, Wise etc but as a true body of work we defintly gained far more by fishing for castoffs than we ever lost in cash or in exchange of futures.

MrCinatit
10-12-2006, 08:44 AM
"Geez...you could time Ernie's run to first place with a sun dial!"
"I don't mind us getting someone like Rusie, even if he is an old 30. Yeah, sure, he missed the last two years...but all we did was give up some minor leaguer."
"The Reds were smart to stay away from that Boston leftie - his whip rocketed from 1.046 to 1.545. Unacceptable. The Yankees were crazy to pay that much for him."
"Who's Williams spitting at?"
"You don't build your ballclub around a bunch of kids like Robinson, Pinson, Flood and Osteen...I'm telling you, when Dutch Dotterer peaks, he will carry this club to the World Series!"
"Way to take a snooze there, Schnozz...why don't you let ALL the Yankees score!"
"No way John ever gets this close to throwing a no-no again for the rest of his career. Isn't the next game a night game? Brooklyn will tear him apart."
"You run some 14-year-old kid out against Musual, and he is sure to blow his arm. Mark my words, we never see this kid near a Reds team for the rest of his life."

GAC
10-12-2006, 08:47 AM
They traded Lee May for who??????

GAC
10-12-2006, 08:49 AM
The Big Red Machine did a lot of winning, had a lot of postseason appearances, and won a couple of World Championships and had a lineup that contained superstars. With that said, there would still be a lot of people complaining here on Redszone.

They would have let Captain Hook have it big time. ;)

And later on - Lou Pinella too!

I've been watching the Reds 75 WS on DVD. I said this before, but if we could have had a game thread while watching those games, it would have been no different.

"What the hell was Foster thinking trying to steal with Griffey at the plate? The guy only had two steal attempts all year!"

Foster gets thrown out by a mile - and then Griffey adds to the injury by getting a hit. ;)

"Whaaaaat? A hit and run? Geez! Bench has a SLG% over .500! Fire Anderson now!"

Roy Tucker
10-12-2006, 09:21 AM
Add in the Tim Hummels and Andy Machados and Ricky Stones and Ruben Mateos and Josias Manzanillos of the world, and I'd say we have a pretty good track record of identifying the players most deserving of derision.

At least Manzanillos had some talent.

He could play "Wipeout" on his cup.

HalMorrisRules
10-12-2006, 10:08 AM
The first thing I thought of was of the many "Vern Rapp must go" type of threads that would have appeared.

Hap
10-12-2006, 11:08 AM
"I don't mind us getting someone like Rusie, even if he is an old 30. Yeah, sure, he missed the last two years...but all we did was give up some minor leaguer."



I don't get this one. Could you please elaborate?

MrCinatit
10-12-2006, 11:35 AM
I don't get this one. Could you please elaborate?

The Reds got Amos Rusie from the Giants for a young Christy Mathewson.

HalMorrisRules
10-12-2006, 11:37 AM
I don't get this one. Could you please elaborate?

On December 15, 1900 the Reds traded for Amos Rusie. He was a Hall of Famer but he only had 8 at bats as a Red. The Reds traded a player that ended up becoming a Hall of Famer but hadnt thrown a pitch in the majors yet. He ended up winning 373 games and had a lifetime ERA of 2.13. That player was Christy Mathewson.

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 05:22 PM
I can't believe Anderson pulls his starters at the first sign of trouble. He over taxes the bull pen arms and has no trust in his starters.....

redsupport
10-12-2006, 05:45 PM
He should trust Manny Sarmiento and Santo Alcala

Hap
10-12-2006, 07:10 PM
If they would change the rule, we could put Kevin Mitchell at DH and play Cesar Hernandez full time.

Poll (circa july-august 1989): SHOULD LARKIN MOVE TO THE OUTFIELD?
His arm will never be the same. His bat will be healthier and he will put up HOF numbers every year.

Let's face it. Tommy Helms IS an old 30.

Lee May has only warning track power in a pitcher's park.

Should Thomas Howard (circa 1995) play every day in CF?

Ron Gant is definitely juiced.

Should they disallow the on-field SRO for Opening Day?

Why do we need Bill Doran?

Joe Hoerner's veteran intangibles.

Does anyone else think Pete's bats are corked?

Why can't we be in the Eastern Division?

KoryMac5
10-12-2006, 08:54 PM
Drew Stubbs is getting his whippings and he hasn't even played a game for the big club yet.

SanDiegoRed
10-13-2006, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the replies...Good Thread

Ltlabner
10-13-2006, 01:37 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned but I'm sure Dan Driessen would have been verbally assulted and dissected.

Roy Tucker
10-13-2006, 01:57 PM
Bill Plummer should play more.

shredda2000
10-13-2006, 02:04 PM
Probably some complaining that Rose hit too many singles and didn't walk enough.

My Dad always said that with Pete Rose's size, he should hit more HOMERUNS...go figure.

LINEDRIVER
10-15-2006, 03:18 PM
December 31, 1976 @ RedsZone

Joe Morgan just won his 2nd consecutive NL MVP Award. Should we trade him now while his value it at it's highest level ???

BCubb2003
10-15-2006, 03:30 PM
If Bid McPhee would wear a glove like everyone else, he would have got that ball...

MrCinatit
10-15-2006, 04:10 PM
A pox on those Wright brother for turning this Gentleman's Game into this tawdry display of individual financial gain!

BCubb2003
10-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Who does Pete Rose think he is? No singles hitter deserves $100,000 a year.

traderumor
10-15-2006, 06:55 PM
Why are they wasting a roster spot on this George Foster bum. He can play all three outfield positions -- badly.

And he only has warning track power.

I don't care if he scored the winning run in the playoffs, because he was only a pinch runner, because that was all he is good at.

I've always wondered and never really seen an explanation for how Foster seemingly came from out of nowhere after languishing on the bench for about 4 years. It seems like his prodigious power just showed up the day Pete moved to third. Maybe I was just too young to understand, but if Foster came on the scene like he did now, there would be 'roid accusations all over the internet.

OldRightHander
10-19-2006, 08:04 PM
but if Foster came on the scene like he did now, there would be 'roid accusations all over the internet.

At his size? He never would have been accused of using HGH. Steroids? Maybe.

tsj017
10-20-2006, 02:49 PM
I was thinking along these lines recently. In the early 70s, it seemed as though the Reds were a very good team that couldn't get over the hump. They lost the Series in '70 and '72. In '73, they lost in the playoffs to a lightly regarded Mets team. In '74, they didn't even win the division!

If we'd had the internet, sports-talk radio, and ESPN back then, there probably would've been calls for Sparky's head after the '73 season--certainly after '74. "Clearly, Anderson can't win the big games." "We're never going to win the Series with Anderson." Not to mention likely criticisms of the players: "Bench and/or Perez never come through when we really need them." "There's trouble in the clubhouse--Rose and Bench hate each other." "Sparky can't control his team; the stars do whatever they want."

In short, in modern circumstances, we might not have had '75 and '76.