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View Full Version : Changes in the coaching ranks - Chambliss, Ruhle, Tunnell not back in Cincinnati



Danny Serafini
10-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Per Marc's blog-

Reds seek new hitting, pitching coaches

The Reds did not offer hitting coach Chris Chambliss a contract for 2007, the team announced today. Chambliss, who spent the last three seasons as hitting coach, saw the Reds drop from first in the NL in runs last year to ninth this year.

The team also will be looking for a new pitching coach entering 2007. Vern Ruhle, who missed all of 2006 after being diagnosed with cancer, will be reassigned within the organization. Tom Hume, his season-long replacement, will return to his longtime job as the bullpen coach. Lee Tunnell, the interim bullpen coach, will not return to the major league staff but could be reassigned within the organization. He originally signed on last winter to be the pitching coach at Louisville.

The remaining coaches from the 2006 staff will return to their jobs: Bucky Dent as bench coach, Billy Hatcher as first base coach, Mark Berry as third base coach and Mike Stefanski as bullpen catcher.

RFS62
10-11-2006, 12:04 PM
Holy Cow!!!!!

Very surprised about Chambliss.

NJReds
10-11-2006, 12:07 PM
I'm surprised, too. I really like Chambliss, but as one who's been pining for some accountability from our Front Office, I can't complain about this move. The results weren't there.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 12:13 PM
I agree with the other comments that the Chambliss move is surprising.

flyer85
10-11-2006, 12:21 PM
That workin' the count and taking walks crap was for the birds. Get a hitting coach that will tell 'em to swing the bat.

Always Red
10-11-2006, 12:26 PM
That workin' the count and taking walks crap was for the birds. Get a hitting coach that will tell 'em to swing the bat.

I had no problems with working the count and taking walks, none at all.

It was the reluctance to swing the bat with two strikes, specifically, that was driving me crazy. If they're not going to walk you (and walks are very valuable for many reasons, IMO), then put the stinkin ball in play.

traderumor
10-11-2006, 12:26 PM
While I too am surprised about Chambliss, I would be careful giving him credit for the approach of hitters. The Reds offense has been known for that prior to the Chambliss era.

Reds4Life
10-11-2006, 12:35 PM
Too bad Narron's name isn't on that list.

Chip R
10-11-2006, 01:04 PM
That workin' the count and taking walks crap was for the birds. Get a hitting coach that will tell 'em to swing the bat.


Johnnie B. Baker is available.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2006, 01:20 PM
This team is just weird.

TeamBoone
10-11-2006, 01:50 PM
Perhaps Chambliss is seriously considering the managerial job with... is it the Giants?

klw
10-11-2006, 02:08 PM
I hope the Reds consider Papa Jack Jackson who the Red Sox let go recently for the hitting coach position.

GAC
10-11-2006, 02:29 PM
Krivsky may want to choose his own people for those positions. I have no problem with that.

Strikes Out Looking
10-11-2006, 03:06 PM
This may indicate that Dunn will not be traded as the FO wants to see how he does with a different strategy (IMO, one that involves swinging at pitches down the middle of the plate--I know, I'm going to get killed for that comment)

I'd like to see them convince Mario Soto to be the full time pitching coach, but I doubt if that'll happen.

RBA
10-11-2006, 03:16 PM
Krivsky may want to choose his own people for those positions. I have no problem with that.

Or maybe Pinnela may want his own people? :D

blumj
10-11-2006, 03:34 PM
I hope the Reds consider Papa Jack Jackson who the Red Sox let go recently for the hitting coach position.
I'm pretty sure Narron was the Red Sox bench coach in '03, Jackson's first season there.

Johnny Footstool
10-11-2006, 03:38 PM
Again, it looks like Krivsky/Narron miss on the no-brainer.

Aronchis
10-11-2006, 03:42 PM
While I too am surprised about Chambliss, I would be careful giving him credit for the approach of hitters. The Reds offense has been known for that prior to the Chambliss era.

Yup, they were known as underachievers that didn't score as many runs as they should.

KronoRed
10-11-2006, 05:37 PM
Yeah, the coaches are the problem ;)

remdog
10-11-2006, 07:16 PM
What's Mike Greenwell doing these days?

Rem

MrCinatit
10-11-2006, 07:34 PM
Pretty large surprise about Chambliss - I was surprised about Ruhle, as well, though that could very well have been his own wishes.

Cedric
10-11-2006, 08:31 PM
Hitting coach is the dumbest job in America. I can't believe they actually pay guys to do it.

westofyou
10-11-2006, 08:33 PM
Hitting coach is the dumbest job in America. I can't believe they actually pay guys to do it.

Why? Some guys can change a whole teams game, Charlie Lau comes to mind.

Cedric
10-11-2006, 08:37 PM
Why? Some guys can change a whole teams game, Charlie Lau comes to mind.


I find it to be the most unimportant job in baseball. Worse than bullpen coach.

I bet if you look at the players numbers before and after Chambliss, there would be an extremely close correlation to the players history or a natural progression. I'm sure there is that one guy that could make all the difference, but for that one guy there are 100 hitting coaches that get tossed around back and forth between clubs doing nothing but harmfully tinkering with players.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 08:37 PM
I find it to be the most unimportant job in baseball. Worse than bullpen coach.

Bench coach.

Cedric
10-11-2006, 08:41 PM
Bench coach.


I like the bench coach. On some teams the bench coach can even manage the team. Bob Melvin ran the Brenly Diamondback teams according to some players.

westofyou
10-11-2006, 08:41 PM
I find it to be the most unimportant job in baseball. Worse than bullpen coach. The Reds were the first team to hire a BP coach, they felt that the BP coach could help regulate the guys in teh pens throwing and free up the picthing coach to focus on the inning eaters. The Reds also were one of the first teams to lean heavily on middle relivers. Chances are the use of a BP coach had a lot to do with that.

All I know is the BRM guys loved Klu and his approach to hitting, and it did wonders for guys like Davey, Geronimo and Foster.

Cedric
10-11-2006, 08:42 PM
The Reds were the first team to hire a BP coach, they felt that the BP coach could help regulate the guys in teh pens throwing and free up the picthing coach to focus on the inning eaters. The Reds also were one of the first teams to lean heavily on middle relivers. Chances are the use of a BP coach had a lot to do with that.

All I know is the BRM guys loved Klu and his approach to hitting, and it did wonders for guys like Davey, Geronimo and Foster.

I'm sure at some level it's a comfort thing. If the guy is comforting and helpful then I'm all for it. Just seems today that these guys get tossed around and the same damn names get rehired. It's just a hard position to objectively debate how good someone is.

Reds Nd2
10-11-2006, 08:48 PM
Again, it looks like Krivsky/Narron miss on the no-brainer.

Yep, but at least they are on the same page and it looks like that page is batting average driven. Oh goody.

*LR =League Rank


Year AVG LR OBP LR SLG LR
2006 .257 15th .336 7th .432 6th
2005 .261 7th .339 2nd .446 1st
2004 .250 13th .331 9th .418 9th

Reds Nd2
10-11-2006, 08:56 PM
It's just a hard position to objectively debate how good someone is.

Yet it is relatively simple to say
Hitting coach is the dumbest job in America. I can't believe they actually pay guys to do it.

Strange how that seems to work on message boards.

Falls City Beer
10-11-2006, 09:02 PM
I think the least important job in a dugout is the manager. Certainly he is, relative to what some get paid.

And I KNOW that the man in the dugout capable of wreaking the most damage on a ballclub is the manager.

corkedbat
10-11-2006, 09:14 PM
A hitting coach is that important unless you get one of the few difference makers that are really good.

Cedric
10-11-2006, 09:16 PM
Yet it is relatively simple to say

Strange how that seems to work on message boards.

I was being over the top obviously, there are a few dumber things. :)
But your post still was funny. I gotta admit.

RedRoser
10-11-2006, 10:14 PM
Why don't they just make Billy Hatcher the hitting coach and hire a first base coach, like Barry Larkin for instance. Or, keep Hatch at first and hire Lark as the hitting coach. Either works for me! :D

RFS62
10-11-2006, 10:25 PM
A good hitting coach can be invaluable. A bad one can really hurt.

Cedric
10-11-2006, 10:41 PM
A good hitting coach can be invaluable. A bad one can really hurt.

I can respect that viewpoint. How many are there though? Hitting a baseball is such a feel thing for most big leaguers.

I'm asking out of ignorance and not sarcasm, can anyone give me a list of hitting coaches that are universally respected as a difference maker? Just seems to me that it's a bunch of retreads getting the same jobs.

George Foster
10-11-2006, 11:54 PM
I can respect that viewpoint. How many are there though? Hitting a baseball is such a feel thing for most big leaguers.

I'm asking out of ignorance and not sarcasm, can anyone give me a list of hitting coaches that are universally respected as a difference maker? Just seems to me that it's a bunch of retreads getting the same jobs.

I agree with you Cedric. In the big leagues, the egos are so big I doubt anyone really listens to the hitting coach. And if no one listens to you...what's the point? They could be really helpful in college and the minors were most guys still repect their elders.

SteelSD
10-12-2006, 03:45 AM
I agree with you Cedric. In the big leagues, the egos are so big I doubt anyone really listens to the hitting coach. And if no one listens to you...what's the point? They could be really helpful in college and the minors were most guys still repect their elders.

I'm not sure I agree with the implication that MLB players dont' listen to their hitting coaches. IMHO, a good hitting coach can do wonders for the players from a form and structure standpoint. Basically, it's both hitting philosophy and biomechanics. The best in the business understand both and that's incredibly useful knowledge to pass on- particularly to younger players who are trying to make good. The Reds were loaded with those players over the past couple of years.

Removing Chambliss- who understands the value of plate discipline- is not a positive move forward for the Reds organization. Krivsky hurt the offense this season. He made it more slump-prone and reliant on players who were having career seasons. It appears that Chambliss has to pay for that. Considering the Narron hasn't yet figured out how to yet put together a decent lineup card over time, that's incredibly unfair. And it's incredibly unfortunate that someone other than Narron or Krivsky has to pay for the ineptitude of the latter two.

Topcat
10-12-2006, 05:11 AM
I think the least important job in a dugout is the manager. Certainly he is, relative to what some get paid.

And I KNOW that the man in the dugout capable of wreaking the most damage on a ballclub is the manager.

Joe Torre says hi :wave: , Massaging those ego's and having the Guts to put A.Rod in the 8th spot in a lineup can be done by few managers. Joe Torre irregardles of the advantages he has been given has year in year out produced a contender and found a way thru injuries and at time a welfare roster of the Andy phillip's of this world and guided the ship with dignity and rationalized thought in the den of Steinbrenner hell.

Always Red
10-12-2006, 08:13 AM
Joe Torre says hi :wave: , Massaging those ego's and having the Guts to put A.Rod in the 8th spot in a lineup can be done by few managers. Joe Torre irregardles of the advantages he has been given has year in year out produced a contender and found a way thru injuries and at time a welfare roster of the Andy phillip's of this world and guided the ship with dignity and rationalized thought in the den of Steinbrenner hell.

Well, that's why the manager gets the big bucks even though it seems as if he doesn't do very much other than be a "general contractor" and keep all the egos in line, as you mention, Topcat. It's all about accountability; the buck stops here. It's someone to blame when things go wrong.

For anyone out there, I'm wondering how many coaches there were on staff back in the 1920's and 30's? How many coaches did McGraw, Huggins, McCarthy, and Hornsby have to work with, or did they handle most of the actual coaching duties as well?

GAC
10-12-2006, 08:17 AM
Bench coach.

What are the actual responsibilities of the bench coach?

Is he like a home room school monitor who yells at the kids and makes sure they stay in their seats?

Or does he just keep his eyes on the manager, feed him information, hoping he screws up so he can someday get his job? :lol:

Dunn: Coach! Griffey is teasing me again about not running out to my position

Griffey: He took away my Gameboy!

Dunn: Did not!

Griffey: Did too!

Dunn: Did not!

Griffey: Did too!

Dunn: You called me a BIG DUMB TEXAN!

Griffey: I never mentioned Texans.

Coach: If you two don't cut it out! Why can't you be more like Rich?

Dunn: I want to bat 3rd

Griffey: Don't you think you should learn to hit in the spot you're in first?

Dunn: At least I can make it through the metal detector at the airport

Coach: OK, that's it! Deno you're in center. Freel, you go to left.

Freel: But my knee still hurts coach!

LaRue (waving his hand): OOOOH! OOOH! I'll play! Please, please! I'll be good, I promise! I'll even run out to my spot and wave at the fans!

RedsFan75
10-12-2006, 09:28 AM
Funny Stuff GAC!!!

westofyou
10-12-2006, 11:53 AM
For anyone out there, I'm wondering how many coaches there were on staff back in the 1920's and 30's? How many coaches did McGraw, Huggins, McCarthy, and Hornsby have to work with, or did they handle most of the actual coaching duties as well?

Usually 1, or 2. McGraw was actually the first to hire former players as coaches, the teams had no pitching coaches and often a player manned the box at 1st or 3rd. Often the coaches were cronies of McGraw, like Hughie Jennings, Wibert Robinson or Bill Dahlen.

paulrichjr
10-13-2006, 07:30 PM
I think this is absurd. Chris Chambliss is the fall guy for the idiotic trade that destroyed the offense of this team at the All-Star break. WayneK shouldn't be able to look himself in the mirror after obviously placing some of the blame for the hitting collapse at the doorstep of Chris Chambliss. I am becoming less of a Krivsky fan everyday.


Chris Chambliss' first 2 1/2 seasons as the Reds' hitting coach were an unqualified success.

He took the team from near the bottom of the offensive heap to near the top in the National League. And Cincinnati still was among the offensive elite at this year's All-Star break - third in runs and on-base percentage and second in slugging percentage.

But the club went belly-up offensively after that. Whether that was due to Chambliss or the fact that the Reds traded two regulars immediately after the break is subject to speculation.


But Chambliss clearly took the fall: He was not invited back for 2007.

"I was surprised," he said. "I did everything I could. I worked as hard as I could. I enjoyed my time. I thought I would have been there a lot longer. But that's our game."

The club also is looking for a pitching coach. Interim pitching coach Tom Hume will go back to being bullpen coach and Vern Ruhle, who missed the '06 season while undergoing cancer treatment, will be re-assigned in the system. Lee Tunnell, the acting bullpen coach, also will be re-assigned at his request.

Chambliss, who was hitting coach for the New York Yankees during their four- title run, is well respected throughout baseball. He received word of the Reds' decision last week from manager Jerry Narron and general manager Wayne Krivsky.

"Telling Chris he would not be back was like telling someone from my own family," Narron said. "I respect him as a baseball man. He works extremely hard."

Why was the change made?

"We really need to see adjustments with these players," Narron said. "We've seen the same approach over and over again. We need someone with a different approach."

Said Chambliss: "They didn't relay anything to me about a different philosophy. I did everything I thought was right."

Narron had nothing bad to say about Chambliss or his approach to the job.

"Chris may go somewhere else and really help guys," Narron said. "Chris has had a great deal of success."

The Reds finished 15th in batting average, 13th in runs and slugging and 14th in on-base percentage in 2003, the year before Chambliss arrived.

Last year, the Reds finished eighth in average, first in runs and slugging and fourth in on-base percentage.

This year, the bottom fell out at the All-Star break. The Reds were 15th in runs, 10th in on-base percentage, 14th in slugging and dead last in average after the break. Narron, however, said Chambliss did not take the fall for the players.

"Not really," Narron said. "You can't go by statistics. We want a different approach. We didn't feel like players made adjustments."

The Reds were much worse offensively after the eight-player trade that sent Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns to Washington.

Krivsky earlier had traded outfielder Wily Mo Peņa for pitcher Bronson Arroyo - a great move.

But with Peņa and Kearns gone and Ryan Freel and Ken Griffey Jr. hurt for much of September, the Reds' outfield depth - once a strength - was gone.

Chip R
10-13-2006, 07:39 PM
I think Chambliss was a good hittng coach. But I think there has been some things under his watch that did not improve such as hitting better with RISP and guys like Dunn striking out. They are still, for better or worse, a team that relies on the home run to score a significant amount of runs. Now you may very well believe that all that is a bunch of crap and you may be right. But this team has not got better at those things during Chambliss' tenure and that may have been what he was judged on.

Falls City Beer
10-13-2006, 07:41 PM
I think this is absurd. Chris Chambliss is the fall guy for the idiotic trade that destroyed the offense of this team at the All-Star break. WayneK shouldn't be able to look himself in the mirror after obviously placing some of the blame for the hitting collapse at the doorstep of Chris Chambliss. I am becoming less of a Krivsky fan everyday.


Chris Chambliss' first 2 1/2 seasons as the Reds' hitting coach were an unqualified success.

He took the team from near the bottom of the offensive heap to near the top in the National League. And Cincinnati still was among the offensive elite at this year's All-Star break - third in runs and on-base percentage and second in slugging percentage.

But the club went belly-up offensively after that. Whether that was due to Chambliss or the fact that the Reds traded two regulars immediately after the break is subject to speculation.


But Chambliss clearly took the fall: He was not invited back for 2007.

"I was surprised," he said. "I did everything I could. I worked as hard as I could. I enjoyed my time. I thought I would have been there a lot longer. But that's our game."

The club also is looking for a pitching coach. Interim pitching coach Tom Hume will go back to being bullpen coach and Vern Ruhle, who missed the '06 season while undergoing cancer treatment, will be re-assigned in the system. Lee Tunnell, the acting bullpen coach, also will be re-assigned at his request.

Chambliss, who was hitting coach for the New York Yankees during their four- title run, is well respected throughout baseball. He received word of the Reds' decision last week from manager Jerry Narron and general manager Wayne Krivsky.

"Telling Chris he would not be back was like telling someone from my own family," Narron said. "I respect him as a baseball man. He works extremely hard."

Why was the change made?

"We really need to see adjustments with these players," Narron said. "We've seen the same approach over and over again. We need someone with a different approach."

Said Chambliss: "They didn't relay anything to me about a different philosophy. I did everything I thought was right."

Narron had nothing bad to say about Chambliss or his approach to the job.

"Chris may go somewhere else and really help guys," Narron said. "Chris has had a great deal of success."

The Reds finished 15th in batting average, 13th in runs and slugging and 14th in on-base percentage in 2003, the year before Chambliss arrived.

Last year, the Reds finished eighth in average, first in runs and slugging and fourth in on-base percentage.

This year, the bottom fell out at the All-Star break. The Reds were 15th in runs, 10th in on-base percentage, 14th in slugging and dead last in average after the break. Narron, however, said Chambliss did not take the fall for the players.

"Not really," Narron said. "You can't go by statistics. We want a different approach. We didn't feel like players made adjustments."

The Reds were much worse offensively after the eight-player trade that sent Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns to Washington.

Krivsky earlier had traded outfielder Wily Mo Peņa for pitcher Bronson Arroyo - a great move.

But with Peņa and Kearns gone and Ryan Freel and Ken Griffey Jr. hurt for much of September, the Reds' outfield depth - once a strength - was gone.


You're right, paul. It really is absurd. 99.9% of this ballclub needed to change. And Chambliss was in the other .1%

Reds Nd2
10-13-2006, 11:11 PM
I was being over the top obviously, there are a few dumber things. :)
But your post still was funny. I gotta admit.

I like to add a dash of humor to my snarkiness. :)

Seriously though, I do agree that it is a hard for us fans to objectively debate the relative the worth or effectiveness of any of the coaching positions because we just don't know what the jobs really entail. Therefore, I'm not sure we can really evaluate and compare them to their peers. (I may be one of the few people not fully ensconced on the Leo Mazzone bandwagon for this very reason.) Now that is speaking as a fan. I'm quite certain that people inside the game, and some of the smarter people outside the game for that matter, are quite capable of evaluating the talent level of the various coaches, just as they do for the scouts, umpires, managers, etc.

We can see the pitching coach go to the mound and settle down a struggling pitcher, but we rarely, if ever, see the hitting coach do the same thing with a hitter after a poor plate appearance. Just because we don't see it happening while watching a game, doesn't mean there isn't some value to it.

Reds Nd2
10-13-2006, 11:16 PM
"We really need to see adjustments with these players," Narron said. "We've seen the same approach over and over again. We need someone with a different approach."

Said Chambliss: "They didn't relay anything to me about a different philosophy. I did everything I thought was right."

Narron had nothing bad to say about Chambliss or his approach to the job.

Huh? :confused:

Ron Madden
10-14-2006, 04:28 AM
You're right, paul. It really is absurd. 99.9% of this ballclub needed to change. And Chambliss was in the other .1%

"Not really" Narron said. " You can't go by statistics. We want a different approach. We didn't feel like players made adjustments." :rolleyes:

GAC
10-14-2006, 08:14 AM
I think Chambliss was a good hittng coach. But I think there has been some things under his watch that did not improve such as hitting better with RISP and guys like Dunn striking out. They are still, for better or worse, a team that relies on the home run to score a significant amount of runs. Now you may very well believe that all that is a bunch of crap and you may be right. But this team has not got better at those things during Chambliss' tenure and that may have been what he was judged on.

I think that is a pretty fair assessment. And I don't believe that this organization, by not having Chambliss come back, is making him out to be the "fall guy", nor a rejection of those improvements offensively that he made.

Just throwing it out there because none of us really know for sure.... maybe it was in those other areas you mentioned, and Chambliss didn't know how to address them and bring about improvement?

We were in the middle of the pack in OB%, SLG%, and OPS.

In all MLB, this team was....

24th in ABs (5515)
22nd in Runs (749)
16th in TBs (2385)
26th in Hits (1419)
20th in RBIs (718)
28th in BA (.257)
28th in AB/HR (25.4)

We were 28th with RISP....

.243 BA .347 OB% .404 SLG% .751 OPS


There is not room for improvement there?

And after all... I've been hearing on here that the reason the Reds did better this year had nothing to do with improvement on this team; but more to them getting "lucky" and dismal competition from a weaker NL.

So are we maybe we are giving Chambliss more credit then he deserves? ;)

Ltlabner
10-14-2006, 04:31 PM
Huh? :confused:

I've generally been a Narron supporter but this interview made him sound particularlly mentally challenged. The lines you quoted jumped off the screen at me and I had much the same reaction.

Marc D
10-15-2006, 12:41 PM
I was one who called for Narrons head all season and he has done nothing to change my opinion. This adds to my ever growing suspicion of Krivsky.

WVRedsFan
10-15-2006, 07:04 PM
I was one who called for Narrons head all season and he has done nothing to change my opinion. This adds to my ever growing suspicion of Krivsky.

Agreed.

Let's see now. You acquire Arroyo, giving up offense, while getting rid of defensive ineptitude. You acquire Ross to get offense at the expense of defense. You trade offense in the Kearns-Lopez transaction to gain pitching, which is a lot like defense, and you get rid of a defensive liability at short and gain defense in the warm body of Royce Clayton, who is nearing 40. You acquire Phillips defense and he provides offense. You acquire Todd Hollandsworth because of his offense and not his defense.

What a mess. I still say Krivsky's method is to throw it on the wall and hope it sticks. What a mess and what a disappointment.

IslandRed
10-15-2006, 09:46 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I rarely sweat hitting coaches one way or the other. I'm a believer in the theory that a hitter is basically a finished product when he reaches the MLB level and it's the rare hitting coach that has any real impact. Maybe a tweak here and there, but that's it. I don't remember Chambliss turning a hitter into anything other than what he basically was already. Conversely, I don't blame him for guys tailing off. But I guess there's a need to believe that your hitting coach can fix guys, and maybe they don't believe that anymore of Chambliss. (Shrug)

The only way I see it as a potential problem is if they expect the new hitting coach to meaningfully alter the way these guys approach at-bats. (See finished-product theory above.) Assuming Krivsky wants to follow Minnesota's approach, the Twins have had success finding guys with the approach they like, but changing guys to fit their approach? Not so much. I'd like to think Krivsky learned from the David Ortiz situation that no matter how much you prefer the round holes, if you've got a really good square peg, just let it be.

cReds1
10-16-2006, 11:07 PM
Players don't hit and strike out alot, so you FIRE a coach because it is his fault. Who would have thunk it?

Ron Madden
10-17-2006, 02:54 AM
The new owner (Bob) wants to win. He wants to win as soon as possible.

Wayne and Jerry must answer to Bob.

Bob wants to know just what the hell happened?

Wayne and Jerry cover their butts. Wayne and Jerry use Chris Chambliss as the Sacrificial Lamb.

Then the Casual Reds Fan, who has'nt the time or curiosity to find the truth accepts the idea that Chamblissis to blame.

It must be the fault of the Hitting Coach.

The Beat Writers and Broadcasters who should have the curiosity and are paid for their time tell us so.

I'm very afraid for the future of this Club.

Jpup
10-17-2006, 05:56 AM
Narron will be next and it won't be soon enough. Chris Chambliss should be in line to manage the Reds instead we are stuck with watching a guy who can't fill out a lineup card to save his life.

redsmetz
10-17-2006, 07:16 AM
Of course, it always comes back to the evil Jerry Narron, who kicks dogs, steals from orphans and widows, and punched each member of the Red Zone in the face as they were growing up. He's probably a Commie too. And he made it rain yesterday. And and and. Oh sheesh.

GAC
10-17-2006, 08:11 AM
Agreed.

Let's see now. You acquire Arroyo, giving up offense[B], while getting rid of [B]defensive ineptitude. You acquire Ross to get offense at the expense of defense. You trade offense in the Kearns-Lopez transaction to gain pitching, which is a lot like defense, and you get rid of a defensive liability at short and gain defense in the warm body of Royce Clayton, who is nearing 40. You acquire Phillips defense and he provides offense. You acquire Todd Hollandsworth because of his offense and not his defense.

What a mess. I still say Krivsky's method is to throw it on the wall and hope it sticks. What a mess and what a disappointment.

I think you're being a little harsh WV. And I really don't think the moves he made this year are an indicator of his (and Cast's) longterm approach.

Dp you believe this team was in chaos BEFORE the new mangement?

If you do, then you also have to acknowledge that they walked into the middle of chaos. They didn't create the chaos; but they are attempting to try and correct it.

I don't understand how fans, who, going into the season firmly believed we weren't even suppose to come close to competing, expected Cast/Kriv to be miracle workers in the first year?

And I don't believe it is being delusional or unreasonable to say that they need to be given more time and patience demonstrated in order to correct this mess.

Do some fans think they should come out with some sort of Fan Quarterly Report giving great details on paper as to what their plans are and the direction they are taking?

IMHO, once we started getting into the season, and this team was either in 1st place or fighting for a post-season spot, Krivsky was trying to make, what he deemed, some low-risk trades to try and keep this team in the hunt. He wasn't putting the whole ball of wax into the '06 season.

You go back and look collectively at a majority of trades/pickups that he made this season. Did they hamstring and hinder this organization long term?

Kriv also had no problem eating some contracts and letting players go either. Clayton was a throw-in and won't be back. Some others may not either. IMO, they were disposablre pickups (low risk).

Did he take some chances and risks? He sure did. And some paid off... which some don't want to give him any recognition or credit for - Arroyo, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Guardado, Cormier, Schoeneweis - they say he simply got lucky or the "blind squirrel" syndrome.

And when a trade or two may be bad, he's accused of not knowing what he's doing, being in chaos, and "throwing it up against the wall and hop it sticks"?

Again - show me where any of these trades/pickups have hurt this team longterm, as far as acquiring talent in the future and/or financially?

We gave up Lopez and Kearns. Some say we paid a really high price, others, while acknowledging we paid a price, question the "stock value" of the two.

I miss Kearns more then I miss Lopez. ;)

But Krivsky knew the trade was risky. He was trying to shore up a rickety bullpen that was dragging them out of playoff contention. IMHO, if we hadn't done something with this BP, we would have been out of it long before the end of September.

But Krivsky said this right after the trade....

"We paid a steep price," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "I'm sure this will be a controversial trade. I know a lot of people will be leaving nasty messages on my voicemail."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2518314

So it wasn't like the guy was like a ship in a storm without a rudder. He knew he was taking a risk, and that the trade would be deemed controversial.

He took that chance. He gambled.

I'm just not convinced that the loss of Lopez and Kearns is what lead to our demise in the second half. And more importantly.... that it has hurt us long term.

Ltlabner
10-17-2006, 04:54 PM
The new owner (Bob) wants to win. He wants to win as soon as possible.

Wayne and Jerry must answer to Bob.

Bob wants to know just what the hell happened?

Wayne and Jerry cover their butts. Wayne and Jerry use Chris Chambliss as the Sacrificial Lamb.

Then the Casual Reds Fan, who has'nt the time or curiosity to find the truth accepts the idea that Chamblissis to blame.

It must be the fault of the Hitting Coach.

The Beat Writers and Broadcasters who should have the curiosity and are paid for their time tell us so.

I'm very afraid for the future of this Club.


Which assumes that that is what really happened.

And assuming that was Krivsky and Narrons reasoning (better placate Bob) it assumes that Bob C is such a dolt that he wouldn't see right through it. He's been around baseball before and is a pretty hands on owner. I don't know for sure, but I can believe that BCast wouldn't put up with that sort of behavior if it took place.

Cedric
10-17-2006, 07:31 PM
I'm very dramatic on this board at times, but being worried about the future of this ballclub because the hitting coach got fired seems a little much even to me.

paulrichjr
10-18-2006, 12:35 AM
Agreed.

Let's see now. You acquire Arroyo, giving up offense[B], while getting rid of [B]defensive ineptitude. You acquire Ross to get offense at the expense of defense. You trade offense in the Kearns-Lopez transaction to gain pitching, which is a lot like defense, and you get rid of a defensive liability at short and gain defense in the warm body of Royce Clayton, who is nearing 40. You acquire Phillips defense and he provides offense. You acquire Todd Hollandsworth because of his offense and not his defense.

What a mess. I still say Krivsky's method is to throw it on the wall and hope it sticks. What a mess and what a disappointment.

I really think your posts on Krivs could be written by me. I have noticed that I agree with you almost 100% of the time. I truly hope that you and I are wrong but I am afraid that a lot of people see the 3 or 4 good moves he made and forget about the many (many) bad ones that DanO couldn't have done without having his binder burned at the stake over. As it stands right now I do not consider this team any closer to a contender than when Krivs took over. Maybe, as most think, a full winter will help but I'm not betting on it.

WVRedsFan
10-18-2006, 12:44 AM
I think you're being a little harsh WV. And I really don't think the moves he made this year are an indicator of his (and Cast's) longterm approach.

Dp you believe this team was in chaos BEFORE the new mangement?

If you do, then you also have to acknowledge that they walked into the middle of chaos. They didn't create the chaos; but they are attempting to try and correct it.

I don't understand how fans, who, going into the season firmly believed we weren't even suppose to come close to competing, expected Cast/Kriv to be miracle workers in the first year?

And I don't believe it is being delusional or unreasonable to say that they need to be given more time and patience demonstrated in order to correct this mess.

Do some fans think they should come out with some sort of Fan Quarterly Report giving great details on paper as to what their plans are and the direction they are taking?

IMHO, once we started getting into the season, and this team was either in 1st place or fighting for a post-season spot, Krivsky was trying to make, what he deemed, some low-risk trades to try and keep this team in the hunt. He wasn't putting the whole ball of wax into the '06 season.

You go back and look collectively at a majority of trades/pickups that he made this season. Did they hamstring and hinder this organization long term?

Kriv also had no problem eating some contracts and letting players go either. Clayton was a throw-in and won't be back. Some others may not either. IMO, they were disposablre pickups (low risk).

Did he take some chances and risks? He sure did. And some paid off... which some don't want to give him any recognition or credit for - Arroyo, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, Guardado, Cormier, Schoeneweis - they say he simply got lucky or the "blind squirrel" syndrome.

And when a trade or two may be bad, he's accused of not knowing what he's doing, being in chaos, and "throwing it up against the wall and hop it sticks"?

Again - show me where any of these trades/pickups have hurt this team longterm, as far as acquiring talent in the future and/or financially?

We gave up Lopez and Kearns. Some say we paid a really high price, others, while acknowledging we paid a price, question the "stock value" of the two.

I miss Kearns more then I miss Lopez. ;)

But Krivsky knew the trade was risky. He was trying to shore up a rickety bullpen that was dragging them out of playoff contention. IMHO, if we hadn't done something with this BP, we would have been out of it long before the end of September.

But Krivsky said this right after the trade....

"We paid a steep price," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "I'm sure this will be a controversial trade. I know a lot of people will be leaving nasty messages on my voicemail."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2518314

So it wasn't like the guy was like a ship in a storm without a rudder. He knew he was taking a risk, and that the trade would be deemed controversial.

He took that chance. He gambled.

I'm just not convinced that the loss of Lopez and Kearns is what lead to our demise in the second half. And more importantly.... that it has hurt us long term.

Hey GAC...I was being harsh, but I still believe that the moves made near the deadline (extending Narron, trading Lopez and Kearns, and getting next to nothing for them to help this year, a year in which we really had a chance, cost us the playoffs. OF course, there is the chance that Lopez and Kearns would have slumped like the rest at the end, but I somehow doubt it. Kearns and Lopez were an important part of the llineup which effected everyone else, but I may be full of crap. My wife tells me so all the time.

In the long term? Who cares until Spring Training? This year was lost.

Cedric
10-18-2006, 12:49 AM
Hey GAC...I was being harsh, but I still believe that the moves made near the deadline (extending Narron, trading Lopez and Kearns, and getting next to nothing for them to help this year, a year in which we really had a chance, cost us the playoffs. OF course, there is the chance that Lopez and Kearns would have slumped like the rest at the end, but I somehow doubt it. Kearns and Lopez were an important part of the llineup which effected everyone else, but I may be full of crap. My wife tells me so all the time.

In the long term? Who cares until Spring Training? This year was lost.

I honestly don't think Krivsky put all his eggs in this year. I think he had all the intentions in the world of getting rid of Felipe and Kearns at the earliest bidding. I'm not happy with what he got in return, but I can't argue with losing those two players at this point.

Felipe is in my opinion a weak hitting corner OF or 3b. It was quite obvious he didn't fit in any vision of Wayne Krivsky.

WMR
10-18-2006, 12:52 AM
http://www.homevideos.com/freezeframes1203/dumb123.jpeg

WMR
10-18-2006, 12:55 AM
I'm very dramatic on this board at times, but being worried about the future of this ballclub because the hitting coach got fired seems a little much even to me.

What it says about the basic philosophy of Krivsky is unsettling.

Narron has already proven himself incompetent.

Krivsky continually extolls the virtues of Jerry Narron and how the two "are on the same page." I'm becoming more and more apt to take him fully at his word.

It'll be interesting to see how he disentangles himself when it comes time for Jerry to go.

MWM
10-18-2006, 01:09 AM
"We really need to see adjustments with these players," Narron said. "We've seen the same approach over and over again. We need someone with a different approach."

This statement scares the hell out of me.

WMR
10-18-2006, 01:10 AM
This statement scares the hell out of me.

How else are you going to raise that batting average if you don't get the damn bat off your shoulder??? :angry:

paintmered
10-18-2006, 01:22 AM
"We really need to see adjustments with these players," Narron said. "We've seen the same approach over and over again. We need someone with a different approach."

Translation: "We need players who walk and stike out less and ground out to short more often."

:bang:

KronoRed
10-18-2006, 01:26 AM
Ground outs are better, because they can also eliminate the lead runner

Oh wait..that's for pitchers not hitters :help:

Ron Madden
10-18-2006, 04:11 AM
Which assumes that that is what really happened.

And assuming that was Krivsky and Narrons reasoning (better placate Bob) it assumes that Bob C is such a dolt that he wouldn't see right through it. He's been around baseball before and is a pretty hands on owner. I don't know for sure, but I can believe that BCast wouldn't put up with that sort of behavior if it took place.

Ther is no way we can be sure what exactly happend.

I posted my opinion of what may have taken place, based on my observation. Thats what we do here. We try to share our opinions and discuss The Cincinnati Reds.

If we keep an open mind we might even learn something now and then.

RANDY IN INDY
10-18-2006, 07:54 AM
Ground outs are better, because they can also eliminate the lead runner

Oh wait..that's for pitchers not hitters :help:

Interesting that it seems the only thing that is ever mentioned when talking about eliminating the strikeouts is this. There are also plenty of good things that can happen.

redsmetz
10-18-2006, 08:23 AM
Interesting that it seems the only thing that is ever mentioned when talking about eliminating the strikeouts is this. There are also plenty of good things that can happen.

You know a light bulb just went on for me. With the fact that your average team is going to fail nearly three quarters of the time (the National League ranged from .255 to .276 this season) and even your best teams lost nearly 40 percent of their games, it's no wonder so many folks are pessimistic around here. Even the best still fail at the plate 30 percent of the time. Now I see how some folks around here are so glum.

Of course, you're right, there are plenty of good things that can happen.

GAC
10-18-2006, 08:29 AM
Hey GAC...I was being harsh, but I still believe that the moves made near the deadline (extending Narron, trading Lopez and Kearns, and getting next to nothing for them to help this year, a year in which we really had a chance, cost us the playoffs.

I don't think there was much of anything pitching-wise to get for them by the trading deadline. It was a terrible pitching market. My opinion was that whether we traded the two or not, it's hard to swing a deal when there ain't much out there to begin with. people were snatching up our DFAs before they hit the ground.


OF course, there is the chance that Lopez and Kearns would have slumped like the rest at the end, but I somehow doubt it.

Kearns did alright, but Lopez did not have a solid second half of the season with the Nats. And he is due for a raise from that 2.7 mil/yr. ;)

GAC
10-18-2006, 08:43 AM
I honestly don't think Krivsky put all his eggs in this year.

I agree with you 100% on this Cedric.


I think he had all the intentions in the world of getting rid of Felipe and Kearns at the earliest bidding. I'm not happy with what he got in return, but I can't argue with losing those two players at this point.

I think it's simple common sense that you try to "over value" and get more out of a player(s).

Could they have gotten more for them? I really don't know. Many factors have to be considered....

What position were we trying to fill by trading them, and what was the value of that position (league-wise) in comparison to a Lopez and Kearns to the other team(s)? Was it already a high demand and scarce commodity?

What teams out there had that need, while also having the player(s) available to benefit us? Were they willing to deal?

There may have well been some better pitchers available out there prior to the deadline. I'm sure there was. But what did we have to deal with, as far as a position of strength? Did those teams have a need for a Lopez and/or Kearns?

Personally, if I were a GM, and who did his homework on these two, I'd give up very little as far as quality pitching help (which is a scarce commodity) for the likes of these two.

That's not saying these two were bad players. Just that it wasn't worth me giving up pitching of any value for them.

They were marginal players with yes, a possible up-side.

We should have held our ground and waited till the off-season. I said that even before this trade went down. But there was alot of pressure being put on Krivsky (especially by the fans, media) to do something, anything, to help this sinking bullpen.

He did. ;)

I do not believe that this trade is what sunk us in the second half of the season. This ship was taking on water long before that trade. It came down to pitching, as always.





Felipe is in my opinion a weak hitting corner OF or 3b. It was quite obvious he didn't fit in any vision of Wayne Krivsky.[/QUOTE]

Ron Madden
10-19-2006, 05:01 AM
Is it possible to be a Reds Fan and to critique certain moves made by Ownership, GM, or the Manager?


Shame on Any Of Us who ever disagreed with any move ever made by this organization

We're just Fans. After all Fans are Fans and we should know our place.

MLB employes thousands of people.

Those thousands of employees have a much greater knowledge of the game than the millions of us Fans will ever have.

Hey, they are getting paid they must be real smart.

GAC
10-19-2006, 08:00 AM
Is it possible to be a Reds Fan and to critique certain moves made by Ownership, GM, or the Manager?


Shame on Any Of Us who ever disagreed with any move ever made by this organization

We're just Fans. After all Fans are Fans and we should know our place.

MLB employes thousands of people.

Those thousands of employees have a much greater knowledge of the game than the millions of us Fans will ever have.

Hey, they are getting paid they must be real smart.

Sure. No one is saying that anyone shouldn't. Here is my position/rationale on this from another thread....

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1180096#post1180096

Ltlabner
10-19-2006, 09:19 AM
Is it possible to be a Reds Fan and to critique certain moves made by Ownership, GM, or the Manager?

No. Sorry Ron Madden. A vote was taken by "the secret society" and it was decided that you are not allowed to critique, complain, gripe, groan, point out mistakes, or generally speek ill of the BCast and Krivsky ragime.

Thank you for your cooporation. :)

Ron Madden
10-20-2006, 06:08 AM
Sure. No one is saying that anyone shouldn't. Here is my position/rationale on this from another thread....

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1180096#post1180096

GAC, We're not as far apart in our opinions as you might think.

Wayne screwed up. A few members here said so from the get go.
All were shouted down because Marty,Hal John and Marc defended the move. Wayne Had To Do Something.:bang:

What really upsets me as a life-long fan, is the amount of bull spit and mis- information provided by the Broadcasters and Beat Writers who are paid to inform the Fanbase of this Once Proud Franchise.


It is very sad, very wrong and very dangerous whenever folks stop thinking for for themselves and follow the most popular or most dominate opinions.

:beerme:

Ron Madden
10-20-2006, 06:25 AM
No. Sorry Ron Madden. A vote was taken by "the secret society" and it was decided that you are not allowed to critique, complain, gripe, groan, point out mistakes, or generally speek ill of the BCast and Krivsky ragime.

Thank you for your cooporation. :)

To hell with "the secret society"

I wake up everyday in the Land Of The Free And Home Of The Brave. ;)

GAC
10-20-2006, 10:09 AM
GAC, We're not as far apart in our opinions as you might think.

Wayne screwed up.

And that all may very well be true. But our pitching staff was such a mess when you look at the Runs Scored vs Runs Allowed, I don't think we would have made the post-season even with Lopez and Kearns. Just my opinion.

It was shown on another thread that we lost abut 30 runs with the exit of the two. And I think (not sure) that on another discussion awhile back, Cyclone stated that it translated into probably 4-5 wins.

But what if guys like Majewski and Bray,as well as some others (maybe further acquisitions in that area) help to solidy this BP next year, and we do go out and get a solid middle INFer in the off-season? Because Kriv has stated that guys like Clayton and Castro were never in his plans as everyday starters.

Would that lessen the "bad taste" that many have over this trade?

I never said that it was a good trade. All I ever tried to do was understand all the different variables behind Kriv's decision and WHY he did it.

And it was a high risk deal.

But it didn't hamstring or damage this organization in the long term IMO. That is what is important to me.

Ltlabner
10-20-2006, 10:29 AM
I posted my opinion of what may have taken place, based on my observation. Thats what we do here. We try to share our opinions and discuss The Cincinnati Reds.

And I posted mine. Because mine opinion differs from yours does not mean I am trying to prevent you from sharing yours and imply that Krivsky is immune from complaint.

Ron Madden
10-21-2006, 04:36 AM
And that all may very well be true. But our pitching staff was such a mess when you look at the Runs Scored vs Runs Allowed, I don't think we would have made the post-season even with Lopez and Kearns. Just my opinion.

It was shown on another thread that we lost abut 30 runs with the exit of the two. And I think (not sure) that on another discussion awhile back, Cyclone stated that it translated into probably 4-5 wins.

But what if guys like Majewski and Bray,as well as some others (maybe further acquisitions in that area) help to solidy this BP next year, and we do go out and get a solid middle INFer in the off-season? Because Kriv has stated that guys like Clayton and Castro were never in his plans as everyday starters.

Would that lessen the "bad taste" that many have over this trade?

I never said that it was a good trade. All I ever tried to do was understand all the different variables behind Kriv's decision and WHY he did it.

And it was a high risk deal.

But it didn't hamstring or damage this organization in the long term IMO. That is what is important to me.

Gac, 4 or 5 wins would have landed the Reds a spot in the Playoffs.

We will never know what may have happend if that trade was never made.

We do know our offense and run production suffered as a result of thar deal.

The two middle releivers received in the trade added no value at all.

No matter what Bray or Magic Man do in the future. Wayne screwed up and pretty much gave Kearns and Lopez up for far less than he may have recieved in an off season deal.

This club has many holes that need to be filled with no trading chips.

I hope and pray Wayne Kriviski can turn this organization around but I can't help but doubt some decissions he has made so far.

I might be a few fries short of a fun meal but sometmes I wonder. ;)

Ron Madden
10-21-2006, 04:40 AM
And I posted mine. Because mine opinion differs from yours does not mean I am trying to prevent you from sharing yours and imply that Krivsky is immune from complaint.

That should go without saying. :thumbup:

Ltlabner
10-23-2006, 08:45 AM
STAFF CHANGE - Ronnie Ortegon is the Reds' new minor league hitting coordinator.

He replaces Leon Roberts, the former Devil Rays hitting coach who held the position the last six seasons.

Ortegon spent the last two seasons as a coach with the Rangers' Class AA affiliate and three years before that coaching in the Phillies' farm system.

A blurb at cincypost.com . Not sure if this was posted already. Looks like they weren't just getting rid of Chamblis as a scapegoat, rather they are changing up the hitting coaches at various levels. Not commenting on whether that is a good or bad thing, just passing along the info.

Here's the link. The blurb is towards the end of the story. http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061014/SPT05/610140388/1027