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Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Turn on any news channel, and it's being reported.

I hope it's nothing more than an accident, and I hope everybody's ok.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 03:05 PM
This happened right down the street from where a friend of mine lives. She says she does not think it is scary terrorist stuff, but she's pretty freaked out.

NJReds
10-11-2006, 03:05 PM
Conflicting reports so far. One says it was a helicopter - most others said it was a small plane. Although WABC-TV changed "plane" to "aircraft".

Helicopter wouldn't be too surprising. There are hundreds of them around the city - many at very low altitudes. A plane would be odd.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 03:07 PM
Also, my friend says this is an apartment building, not a high-rise office building.

HotCorner
10-11-2006, 03:09 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/10/11/plane.crash.ap/newt1.1500.plane.cnn.jpg

Per cnn.com

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 03:10 PM
Holy crap it's on 72nd and York! That's very close to the cancer hospital and research center. It's also where I used to walk dogs when I was a dog walker -- if it's the building I think, then I walked dogs in that very building.

Red Leader
10-11-2006, 03:13 PM
525 E. 72nd St. is the address.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 03:21 PM
Also, my friend says this is an apartment building, not a high-rise office building.

From the video on MSNBC it sure does look like an appartment building rather than an office building.

They are also saying that the FAA is saying it's a fixed wing GA aircraft instead of a rotary wing aircraft. Still conflicting reports.

NJReds
10-11-2006, 03:23 PM
From the video on MSNBC it sure does look like an appartment building rather than an office building.

They are also saying that the FAA is saying it's a fixed wing GA aircraft instead of a rotary wing aircraft. Still conflicting reports.

It is an apartment building.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 03:24 PM
I did used to walk dogs in that very building. Holy cannoli, my little babies alone in their apartments. God I hope everyone is ok. That does not look good. I have a text message in to my old boss, who walked dogs and also lives on 74th and 1st.

A bit of information: this is very close to the river, just a block west of the East River which separates Manhattan and Queens/Brooklyn. I'm pretty sure that the only helicopter landing pad is down near Kip's Bay, which is about 40 blocks south of this but on the same side, so a helicopter crash would make sense. (I *think* that's where it is -- it could be in midtown on the WEST side of manhattan, but I think it's the East Side.) This area is also hospital central. I did some work at Memorial-Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, which is at 68th and York. Weill/Cornell/NY Presbyterian is also right there, on York between 69th and 70th. There are several high-rise residential buildings there, mostly modern one-bedrooms for young couples. Heavily populated by doctors and medical residents, obviously. Some families too. There's also a park (very little, non-grassy park -- really just an overlook for the river) at the end of 72nd street right by the river, just a few feet from where this happened.

Terrible.

Red Leader
10-11-2006, 03:25 PM
It is an apartment building.

That is true. Here's a more recent picture.

HotCorner
10-11-2006, 03:26 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/10/11/plane.crash/newt1.1515.nyc.wnyw.jpg

NJReds
10-11-2006, 03:27 PM
FDNY confirms a helicopter crash. (www.wabc.com)

Red Leader
10-11-2006, 03:27 PM
NEW YORK (CNN) -- An aircraft has crashed into the middle of a brick luxury high-rise residential building on Manhattan's Upper East Side at 72nd Street and York Avenue, police officials said.

The building is very close to the East River. There was no word on casualties as firefighters battled the flames that shot up from several windows in the middle of the building. The Federal Aviation Administration has said a "general aviation" aircraft had hit the building.

A North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) spokesperson, which monitors air traffic, told CNN that it had not been tracking the aircraft.

Witness Sarah Steiner told CNN that fires were burning on the ground. "It looks like the plane just flew into someone's living room there."

"It looks as if the aircraft didn't go into the building but fell down," she said. "It may be part of the debris burning on the ground."

Steiner said that when she arrived, she saw fire shooting out of two windows on the 30th floor of the 50-story building.

Video from the scene shows at least three apartments in the high-rise fully engulfed in flames.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 03:28 PM
I'm pretty sure that the only helicopter landing pad is down near Kip's Bay, which is about 40 blocks south of this but on the same side, so a helicopter crash would make sense. (I *think* that's where it is -- it could be in midtown on the WEST side of manhattan, but I think it's the East Side.) This area is also hospital central.

Helicopters would make sense, but there are also a large number of general avation aircraft buzzing around the skies in that area. Teterboro Airport is realtiviley close by and is home to many general avation fixed wing aircraft and excutive aircraft. While they typically don't fly over Manhattan, an fixed wing aircraft in distress could find it's way into that airspace. So both scenarios make sense.

But yes, terrible. Just terrible.

RedFanAlways1966
10-11-2006, 03:29 PM
From FOX NEWS

NEW YORK A small aircraft crashed into a high-rise building on Manhattan's Upper East Side Wednesday,

Local news reports quoted New York Fire Department officials as saying two people were confirmed dead. Officials said there is no indication the incident was a result of terrorism.

The crash set off a raging fire that sent a pillar of gray smoke over the city, police said. Witnesses reported seeing a gigantic fireball come out of the building, police said.

Flames could be seen shooting from windows on two upper floors of the 50-story building, near the East River. Burning debris fell from the tower, and a column of gray smoke rose over the city.

"There's huge pieces of debris falling," said one witness who refused to give her full name. "There's so much falling now, I've got to get away."

Fire Department spokeswoman Emily Rahimi said the aircraft struck the 20th floor of the building, located at 524 East 72nd Street.

The Federal Aviation Administration said it was a small aircraft that was involved, but there was very little other information collected so far. A helicopter would be expected in that area of the city; no other aircraft should be around that part of Manhattan, the FAA said.

"Everyone was running down the street, kids were screaming and crying," Rich Behar, a New York City resident and former Time magazine reporter, told FOX News. "There was a lot of horror and terror when it hit," Behar added, saying the whole ordeal reminded him of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The building is a 50-story condominium tower built in 1986 and located nearby Sotheby's Auction House. It has 183 apartments, many of which sell for more than $1 million.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 03:36 PM
Reports now comming in that it was a multi engine fixed wing airfraft that hit the building. Apparetly it was flying eratically. It was flying up the East River which is used as a flight coridor and this building that was hit is directly next to the river.

IF (it's way early) that is true, a multi engine aircraft can be difficult to controll if they lose an engine and it typically creates a situation where strait ahead flight is very difficult.

Apparently the fire has been upgraded to a 4 alarm acording to Fox News.

CrackerJack
10-11-2006, 03:50 PM
Huh, must be election time - gotta stir up some of the fear votes somehow I guess.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 03:52 PM
Huh, must be election time - gotta stir up some of the fear votes somehow I guess.

Lame.

Chip R
10-11-2006, 03:54 PM
Huh, must be election time - gotta stir up some of the fear votes somehow I guess.

Take it to the Peanut Gallery or leave for good!

Red Leader
10-11-2006, 03:55 PM
Huh, must be election time - gotta stir up some of the fear votes somehow I guess.

What a terrible thing to say. People died in this event. Many more are trapped by fire on the upper floors of this building. That's a completely assinine thing to say.

letsgojunior
10-11-2006, 03:56 PM
Huh, must be election time - gotta stir up some of the fear votes somehow I guess.

I'm sorry - that's nothing short of disgusting.

There are people trapped on the top floors of a burning building - take your garbage elsewhere.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 03:58 PM
Reports that floors 42 and up have been cleared. Main fire extinguished. Lots of smoke right now. Reports from FDNY and passed along by Fox News.

God, how I hope that is true.

Chip R
10-11-2006, 03:59 PM
All right, people. It serves no purpose quoting that post over again no matter how disgusting it was.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 03:59 PM
Horrible, horrible flashbacks to 5 years ago.....

Falls City Beer
10-11-2006, 04:03 PM
This is nothing like 9/11. Nothing at all.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 04:06 PM
My boss has not returned my call, which is unlike her and is freaking me out. Chances of course that she is hurt are very slim but she is undoubtedly in the area.

but cell phones conked out completely during both September 11 and the blackout (which is one reason I will always have a land line). That could affect things too.

I wish they'd break into local programming here.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:08 PM
According to Governor Patacki (sp?) on Fox News the Port Authority has accounted for all aircraft in the NYC area and none are "missing" or acting suspicious. Also, no credible intelligence of a pending attack was available to him or DHS.

Also, another report that all floors above the crash level have been cleared and that nobody is traped.

EDIT: It wasn't clear if the Gov was talking about all aircraft (including general aviation and rotary wing) or only commercial aircraft.

dman
10-11-2006, 04:10 PM
Since 9/11 the FAA has been very strict on their guidelines involving flights of GA aircraft in and around the cities impacted by the 9/11 attacks. I'll wait until I find out more about the situation before I'll speculate too much. I will say however, the possibility of this being a helicopter involved is a more likely scenario than a fixed-wing aircraft.

I stand corrected, I see the stories coming out from the FAA that it was a small fixed-wing aircraft. I hope this was just an unusual accident. General Aviation is under enough scrutiny as it is already, with user fees trying to be implemented and also, a lot of the media already thinks of GA as a bunch of redneck, rag-tag pilots

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:22 PM
I stand corrected, I see the stories coming out from the FAA that it was a small fixed-wing aircraft. I hope this was just an unusual accident. General Aviation is under enough scrutiny as it is already, with user fees trying to be implemented and also, a lot of the media already thinks of GA as a bunch of redneck, rag-tag pilots

You nailed it. There is already a dude on Fox screaming that "unrestricted" airspace in areas in around the Hudson and that he knew this would happen all along. He's screaming about "little piper cubs" with bombs buzzing all over the place. In a few minutes he's worked the phrase "unrestricted" airspace into the interview more times than Ryan Freel says "ya know". :rolleyes:

registerthis
10-11-2006, 04:23 PM
I'm guessing one of two things: Mechanical failure on the part of the craft, and the pilot was unable to control the plane, or the pilot was suicidal.

Certainly doesn't look like any terrorism going on here.

registerthis
10-11-2006, 04:26 PM
You nailed it. There is already a dude on Fox screaming that "unrestricted" airspace in areas in around the Hudson and that he knew this would happen all along. He's screaming about "little piper cubs" with bombs buzzing all over the place. In a few minutes he's worked the phrase "unrestricted" airspace into the interview more times than Ryan Freel says "ya know". :rolleyes:

Earlier this year some guy in a Cessna was almost shot down here in D.C. for flying into restricted airspace. He was, literally, about 15-20 seconds from being blown out of the sky. Not only was the guy completely oblivious to the fact that small planes can't fly over central D.C. (duh) he also was immune fromt he exasperrated radio calls fromt he FAA and, up until the last possible moments, the F-2 fighters that ha dpulled up alongside him.

There are some true idiots out there...

dman
10-11-2006, 04:26 PM
If it's terrorism, then it has to be "Bush League" terrorism because fanaticals aren't going to target a high rise apartment building since it has no "symbolic value".

NJReds
10-11-2006, 04:26 PM
For some perspective on this building's proximity to the river.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/10/11/plane.crash/newt1.irpt.keller.jpg

Chip R
10-11-2006, 04:28 PM
The next person who even hints at this being political - one way or another is getting banned indefinitely!

Reds4Life
10-11-2006, 04:28 PM
Doubtful it's terrorism, it sounds like a freak accident. Might be weather related, it looks pretty crappy in NYC right now.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:29 PM
CNN's Wolf Blitzer reporting that the aircraft left Teterboro Airport around 2:30 EST and seats 4.

Teterboro is a general aviation airport that caters to general avation and exectutive aircraft.

If it was flying up the east river is about 530 yards wide (IIRC from the barage of reports I've been following) so an aircraft in distress wouldn't have much room to operate both with altitude and manuvering room.

Weather could also be a factor. An army air corps B25 flew into the Empire State Building in the early 1940's so it's not inconcievable.

dman
10-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Earlier this year some guy in a Cessna was almost shot down here in D.C. for flying into restricted airspace. He was, literally, about 15-20 seconds from being blown out of the sky. Not only was the guy completely oblivious to the fact that small planes can't fly over central D.C. (duh) he also was immune fromt he exasperrated radio calls fromt he FAA and, up until the last possible moments, the F-2 fighters that ha dpulled up alongside him.

There are some true idiots out there...

In the age of modern technology, where GPS is a vital source of navigation and where handheld GPS is more affordable than ever, there is no excuse for an airspace incursion of this magnitude.

dman
10-11-2006, 04:31 PM
The next person who even hints at this being political - one way or another is getting banned indefinitely!

Chip, I wasn't trying to be political. If I did, it was totally by accident and I sincerely apologize.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:35 PM
CNN reporting that first responders were told that a mayday was sent out from the small plane prior to impact.

Not a confirmed report.

NatiRedGals
10-11-2006, 04:40 PM
Ethier way its ironic how it happend on October 11th.... Just a month after the real big one :( :usa:

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:42 PM
CNN's Anderson Cooper is interviewing a witness who claims to be in the building on the 46th floor. Said it was definatley a fixed wing aircraft but couldn't tell how many enginees. He felt the building shake upon impact. They tried to yell to people to get out as they started down the building. Experienced very heavy smoke around the 42nd/43rd floor.

Fox News now reporting that the plane was registered to Yankee pitcher Cory Lidle. Conflicting reports that he was piloting the aircraft. Yankees are not commenting when aproached by Fox News. Not confirmed.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 04:43 PM
Cory Lidle...wow.

Reds4Life
10-11-2006, 04:43 PM
NYC reports are saying the plane was registered by Cory Lidle, the pitcher.

Fox now saying there are reports he was flying the plane at the time of the crash.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:45 PM
CNN reporting that Cory does fly, does have a plane at Teterboro and was planning to fly out of NYC today.

Again, unconfirmed.

EDIT: Aircraft reported to be SR-20 which is a fixed wing aircraft.

RedFanAlways1966
10-11-2006, 04:45 PM
OMG... Cory Lidle. Sad no matter who it is, but added sorrow for us baseball fans. :(

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 04:45 PM
ESPN News is now saying Lidle died in the plane crash...

:(

Redsland
10-11-2006, 04:48 PM
Wow. :(

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 04:48 PM
Cory Lidle has been confirmed dead.

:(

NJReds
10-11-2006, 04:50 PM
RIP Cory...

Reds4Life
10-11-2006, 04:51 PM
NYPD is saying Lidle is dead. His passport was found in the street below.

GIK
10-11-2006, 04:54 PM
RIP. Speechless.

HotCorner
10-11-2006, 04:55 PM
Wow.

justincredible
10-11-2006, 04:56 PM
RIP. This is horrible. :(

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 04:57 PM
CNN Miles OBrian reporting that it was Corey Lidle. Was making a turn to the south as it left a VFR coridor and entereing JFK airspace. Some reports are that the aircraft was trying to evade other trafic and lost control.

Other reports are that the aircraft simply entered a stall during the turn as it was already flying slow and was obviously didn't have much altitude to recover. Also, he was on the radio and might have experenced some mechanical difficulties so he could have easily gotten distracted. Cloud cover was around 1,800 feet so it's not inconcevable that he might have gotten into some soup and lost control. Any of these scenarios make sense.

He was certified as a pilot last off-season and had about 400 hours as a pilot.

New reports are that Lidle was alone in the aircraft.

guttle11
10-11-2006, 04:57 PM
Oh. My. Gosh.

Simply unbelieveable.

KronoRed
10-11-2006, 04:59 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2621860

RIP

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 04:59 PM
Hard to know what to say when you hear things like this...

All the best to his family.

registerthis
10-11-2006, 04:59 PM
Wow.

OldRightHander
10-11-2006, 05:01 PM
What a terrible thing to say. People died in this event. Many more are trapped by fire on the upper floors of this building. That's a completely assinine thing to say.

That about sums it up.

HumnHilghtFreel
10-11-2006, 05:01 PM
RIP Cory. And all those involved as well

This is such a weird thing to happen

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 05:03 PM
What a horrible tragedy.

I wish nothing but the best to Cory's family. I can't remember from him time here in Cincinnati....he was married with two small children?? Is that right??

elfmanvt07
10-11-2006, 05:03 PM
I've always hated the Yankees, but my heart is with New York and the Lidle family.

KittyDuran
10-11-2006, 05:04 PM
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_117756.jpg:cry: :(

OldRightHander
10-11-2006, 05:06 PM
All of a sudden it seems really insignificant to talk about sports right now.

KittyDuran
10-11-2006, 05:06 PM
What a horrible tragedy.

I wish nothing but the best to Cory's family. I can't remember from him time here in Cincinnati....he was married with two small children?? Is that right??They (MLB) no longer show that family info on the websites... but IIRC you are right.

Reds Fanatic
10-11-2006, 05:09 PM
Cory was 34 years old. He apparently had just earned his pilot's license last off season.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 05:10 PM
I just turned on ESPN News and they were in the middle of talking about what this means for the Yankees already thin pitching staff.

You stay classy, ESPN.

Larkin Fan
10-11-2006, 05:11 PM
I'm speechless. This is absolutely awful. RIP Cory. My thoughts and prayers are with everybody affected by this tragedy.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 05:11 PM
I just turned on ESPN News and they were in the middle of talking about what this means for the Yankees already thin pitching staff.

You stay classy, ESPN.


:thumbdown That's stunningly tasteless.

My heart goes out to all involved in this tragedy.

OldRightHander
10-11-2006, 05:12 PM
I just turned on ESPN News and they were in the middle of talking about what this means for the Yankees already thin pitching staff.

You stay classy, ESPN.

You have got to be kidding me. :bang:

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 05:12 PM
He had one child, according to ESPN.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 05:15 PM
ESPN regular has Phillips and Kruk on now....they haven't mentioned the Yankees...they've mentioned the indicent and family, and how baseball has tragically lost a fraternity brother.

Reds4Life
10-11-2006, 05:16 PM
NBC News now also confirming Lidle was killed in the crash. NYC medical examiner is also confirming he has died.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 05:16 PM
Oh no....ESPN is speculating that Cory's family may not even know anything's wrong as they believe they are on an airplane.

I pray to God that's not true.

Larkin Fan
10-11-2006, 05:16 PM
I just turned on ESPN News and they were in the middle of talking about what this means for the Yankees already thin pitching staff.

You stay classy, ESPN.

Unbelievable.

Ltlabner
10-11-2006, 05:16 PM
Sounds like the cloud base was at 1800feet which is very low.

Distraction (CFIT), stall, mechanical issue, or loss of control due to avoiding other traffic below this altitude would likely have a tragic outcome as there is very little time for recovery.

One eye witness on CNN reported that the plane was "zig zagging" as it came down. Now CNN is showing a graphic of a radar tracking program preporting to be the crash aircraft. The aircraft is climbing very rapidly as it commensed it's turn to the south. Suddenly the aircraft loses altitude at a tremendous rate and falls. This is all very preliminary but it sounds like a stall scenario.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 05:17 PM
I turned on in the middle of the comments, but the fact that they were discussing this even at all is disgusting.

redsrule2500
10-11-2006, 05:18 PM
Cory Lidle...that's insane. I heard this earlier but had no idea it was him.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 05:20 PM
Oh no....ESPN is speculating that Cory's family may not even know anything's wrong as they believe they are on an airplane.

I pray to God that's not true.

That would be more horrible.

It's already horrible.

:(

harangatang
10-11-2006, 05:21 PM
Wow that's terrible, what a shock.

Unassisted
10-11-2006, 05:27 PM
I just turned on ESPN News and they were in the middle of talking about what this means for the Yankees already thin pitching staff.
I've actually worked in a TV newsroom, so I have a different view on whether this is appropriate.

What else does ESPN know about but the big picture on sports? If they're going to cover this story in any kind of extended fashion, it makes more sense for ESPN to discuss the impact on Lidle's ballclub than to have John Kruk expound on the finer points of aviation. People who get info on this story from ESPN want to know the story from the sports angles.

OldRightHander
10-11-2006, 05:30 PM
Now they're saying he had a six year old son. This is going to be really hard on that boy.

traderumor
10-11-2006, 05:34 PM
I've actually worked in a TV newsroom, so I have a different view on whether this is appropriate.

What else does ESPN know about but the big picture on sports? If they're going to cover this story in any kind of extended fashion, it makes more sense for ESPN to discuss the impact on Lidle's ballclub than to have John Kruk expound on the finer points of aviation. People who get info on this story from ESPN want to know the story from the sports angles.Although Cory Lidle is not of the same stature both personally and professionally, don't you think that if ESPN was around when Roberto Clemente was killed that it would have been inappropriate to say as a lead in "boy, that's really gonna hurt the Pirates chances next year?" I can play devil's advocate as well as anyone, but I sure am not gonna try to say that was "just a matter of perspective" on this one.

jimbo
10-11-2006, 05:35 PM
What a tragedy. I'm just sitting here stunned.

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 05:42 PM
You've really got to wonder if the Mets and Cardinals will play tonight.

kaldaniels
10-11-2006, 05:44 PM
Game on I'm sure. Moment of silence.

919191
10-11-2006, 05:46 PM
You've really got to wonder if the Mets and Cardinals will play tonight.

I was wondering the same thing...not that I think they should postpone- I think without question they should play, but I can't help but wonder.

But if they were going to postpone, I think they would have said so by now.

RBA
10-11-2006, 05:47 PM
Just heard about it. Sad news indeed.

Gallen5862
10-11-2006, 05:48 PM
RIP Cory Lidle.

Wyatt Earp
10-11-2006, 05:50 PM
RIP Cory and May GOD be with his family. I can not even imagine how hard this is going to be.

RBA
10-11-2006, 05:53 PM
EBAY (http://cgi.ebay.com/CORY-LIDLE-1998-Topps-Chrome-rookie-card-348-YANKEES_W0QQitemZ110043031961QQihZ001QQcategoryZ55 882QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

:thumbdown

Unassisted
10-11-2006, 05:58 PM
Although Cory Lidle is not of the same stature both personally and professionally, don't you think that if ESPN was around when Roberto Clemente was killed that it would have been inappropriate to say as a lead in "boy, that's really gonna hurt the Pirates chances next year?" I can play devil's advocate as well as anyone, but I sure am not gonna try to say that was "just a matter of perspective" on this one.

ESPN had to talk about something when the bosses there made the call to stay on the air with the story before they had the resources in place to do more than discuss it from the set. Now they are, quite appropriately, delivering live interviews with people who actually knew Cory Lidle.

I defend ESPN's choice mainly because it was made on the fly and in the heat of battle. Those are the loneliest and toughest calls for producers to make. It might have even been the call of the anchor on the set who was running out of things to say.

traderumor
10-11-2006, 06:06 PM
You've really got to wonder if the Mets and Cardinals will play tonight.That would be a bit drastic. No disrespect to Cory Lidle, but there is no direct contact with either team other than he played for the Mets early in his career.

Number_Fourteen
10-11-2006, 06:08 PM
Reminiscent of the sad day another Yankee, Thurman Munson, died while piloting his own craft 27 years ago this year.

RIP, Cory and God Bless your family, friends and fans. :( :cry:

redsfan30
10-11-2006, 06:09 PM
That would be a bit drastic. No disrespect to Cory Lidle, but there is no direct contact with either team other than he played for the Mets early in his career.

With the rain falling right now, the fact that this happened in New York City and also the fact that he was a Major League ballplayer, it wouldn't surprise me to see the league take all things into consideration and move back the game.

Reds Fanatic
10-11-2006, 06:31 PM
With the rain falling right now, the fact that this happened in New York City and also the fact that he was a Major League ballplayer, it wouldn't surprise me to see the league take all things into consideration and move back the game.
They were just at Shea Stadium on Sportscenter and there is a steady rain falling so I think that game will probably be rained out.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 06:36 PM
This whole thing is so bizarre I can't even wrap my head around it.

Here is a New York Times article about Cory and his flying, from just about a month ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/sports/baseball/08yankees.html?ex=1160712000&en=e3c16d3546db809f&ei=5070

MrCinatit
10-11-2006, 06:43 PM
Rest in peace, Cory. Very sad news.

Shaknb8k
10-11-2006, 07:00 PM
Very Very sad to hear....i couldnt believe this when i heard it.

pedro
10-11-2006, 07:02 PM
This whole thing is so bizarre I can't even wrap my head around it.

Here is a New York Times article about Cory and his flying, from just about a month ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/sports/baseball/08yankees.html?ex=1160712000&en=e3c16d3546db809f&ei=5070

it really is very odd. thanks for the link.

TC81190
10-11-2006, 07:10 PM
Wow....that's....awful.

I've needed a new Reds jersey for awhile, and I now may be getting one as a 'throwback' in honor of Cory.

Shaknb8k
10-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Wow....that's....awful.

I've needed a new Reds jersey for awhile, and I now may be getting one as a 'throwback' in honor of Cory.

I got me a Darnell Stenson jersey a few years back and ill probably be getting me a Lidle jersey now too.....It might sound corny but it really is the only way i can think to honor someone like that. I wear my Stenson jersey to every game....Next year ill be alternating Stenson and Lidle.

Danny Serafini
10-11-2006, 07:34 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/images/2004/06/08/YGnbNMEc.jpg

http://cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/lidle_cory0523.jpg

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/images/2004/07/22/4QvAeURK.jpg

http://www.cincinnati.com/reds/roster/img/lidle_125x150.jpg

kbrake
10-11-2006, 07:48 PM
Kind of puts thing into perspective....how horrible. RIP Cory Lidle.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 07:59 PM
Statements From Cincinnati Reds



Cory Lidle played for the Reds in 2004. He was traded to the Phillies on 8/9/04.



“The Reds family and all of baseball is very saddened by the news of the accident and Cory’s death,” said Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky. “Our thoughts and prayers are with their friends and families.”

Reds outfielder Ken Griffey Jr., who was a teammate of Lidle with the Reds in 2004, said, “I was shocked by the news. Baseball lost a good player, friend, teammate and competitor. He left an impression on all of us. Our prayers are with his family.”

Said Reds pitcher Aaron Harang, who was a teammate of Lidle’s with the Athletics in 2002, “He was a great friend and teammate. Our thoughts are with Melanie and Christopher and the rest of the Lidle family. He will be missed.”

OnBaseMachine
10-11-2006, 08:08 PM
I'm stunned. Very very sad news.

RIP Cory.

TeamBoone
10-11-2006, 08:19 PM
I'm stunned. What a tragedy...

I truly hope the part about his family not knowing yet is untrue. I've never known the media to release a name until the family has been notified.

What a terrible loss.

I liked him when he was with the Reds, though it was a tough year for him statistically. RIP Cory.

paintmered
10-11-2006, 08:24 PM
Very sad. :(

Condolences to his family, teammates and all of the lives he's touched over the years.

mbgrayson
10-11-2006, 08:39 PM
:cry:

Falls City Beer
10-11-2006, 08:43 PM
I still think Cory was a nice pickup for the club; probably DanO's best deal.

Terribly sad.

RFS62
10-11-2006, 09:07 PM
Wow, just got back and heard this incredible news.

RIP, Cory. How terrible for a young man with a family.

Cigar2
10-11-2006, 09:08 PM
I just heard. Sad News, Very sad News.:(

Reds Fanatic
10-11-2006, 10:17 PM
Really sad news. Cory's Dad found out on TV about his son's death.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2622099


Doug Lidle and his close friend Bobby Compton played a round of golf Wednesday morning near their southern California homes. Afterward, they went into the snack bar and watched as the television news broke in with an urgent flash: A small plane had crashed into a Manhattan skyscraper.


"We were watching it on TV," Compton told ESPN.com, "not even thinking it could be Cory, because Doug thought Cory had already left."

Lisa Lidle, Doug's wife, had just spoken to their son, Cory. "See you Saturday," he'd told her. Lidle's parents were sure he was on his way home. He'd planned to fly back to California later this week, making a few stops along the way.

Not worried, the men parted ways. Compton, who is also Doug Lidle's supervisor at Century 21 Colonial in Covina, Calif., went back to the office. Soon, the news began to spread through the building: Cory Lidle, who had been a customer of the real estate group as well as a friend, might have owned the plane that crashed.

Compton called his friend.

"Hey, Doug," he remembers asking. "Is it Cory's plane or not?"

"I don't know," Lidle told him. "I'm watching it."

Just then, a television report had confirmed the plane was registered to Cory Lidle, and that his passport had been found.

"Doug, call Cory," Compton said. "And call me back."

That's how Doug Lidle found out his son wasn't coming home.

A few minutes went by. Then a few minutes more. The truth began to set in around the office.

"He didn't call me back," Compton said. "I waited a little bit and he didn't call me back. I called and called; and then I said, 'Screw it.' I drove over to see him."

He found Lidle's parents struggling to accept the loss of their son, a young man who loved flying his new airplane and playing poker.

"Doug's holding on," Compton said Wednesday evening. "He's totally devastated. But that can be expected."

Compton said Lidle's wife, Melanie, and their 6-year-old son Christopher had left New York for Los Angeles before the accident, and likely had no way of learning of the news. According to Compton, a priest planned to meet the flight at Los Angeles International Airport and break the news to Melanie Lidle that her life is forever changed.

"She doesn't know," Compton said. "She's on a plane heading home. She has no clue."

RFS62
10-11-2006, 10:19 PM
Really sad news. Cory's Dad found out on TV about his son's death.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2622099

Man, what a heartbreaker.

kaldaniels
10-11-2006, 10:39 PM
Any word on the 2nd person???

George Foster
10-11-2006, 10:44 PM
It was reported on Fox news at about 10pm that the plane apparently ran out of gas. An instructer was on board as well and pilot error(during the flight anyway) is not expected.

If the plane had had enough fuel to reach Nashville, where Lidle had reservations tonight, the fire would have been a lot more intense.

The plane was only 20 miles form the airport in New Jersey were it took off.

Very sad.

vaticanplum
10-11-2006, 10:44 PM
Any word on the 2nd person???

Logic says that it was his flight instructor, since no one in the building was killed. But reports out of Teterboro Airport said that Lidle was alone on the plane. I think those reports may be wrong.

Reds Fanatic
10-11-2006, 10:47 PM
I heard the 2nd person that died was the flight instructor.

GriffeyFan
10-11-2006, 10:51 PM
Hmmmm....of course the first place I looked for a thread on a baseball player dying in a plane crash was on the "Non-Baseball Chatter" thread.

Makes about zero sense.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2006, 10:55 PM
Hmmmm....of course the first place I looked for a thread on a baseball player dying in a plane crash was on the "Non-Baseball Chatter" thread.

Makes about zero sense.

When I started the thread....noboby knew about Lidle.

paintmered
10-11-2006, 10:56 PM
Hmmmm....of course the first place I looked for a thread on a baseball player dying in a plane crash was on the "Non-Baseball Chatter" thread.

Makes about zero sense.

The thread was here before the world knew about Corey Lidle.

Patrick Bateman
10-11-2006, 10:57 PM
Hmmmm....of course the first place I looked for a thread on a baseball player dying in a plane crash was on the "Non-Baseball Chatter" thread.

Makes about zero sense.


I'd pick fights on a different thread.

remdog
10-11-2006, 11:30 PM
I'd pick fights on a different thread.

Someone makes a logical, common sense statement and that's "picking a fight"? :rolleyes:

Rem

RBA
10-11-2006, 11:34 PM
A closed sticky in the baseball forums pointing to this thread might be helpful for some.

Larkin Fan
10-11-2006, 11:42 PM
Someone makes a logical, common sense statement and that's "picking a fight"? :rolleyes:

Rem

Common sense? Common sense would have been to assume that this was posted before the information about Lidle was known. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter where this is posted.

Frankly, I'm tired of seeing these types of threads end up like this. This thread is about a tragedy in which human lives were lost and all several of you want to do is pick nits about rather insignificant BS? Get your priorities straight.

RBA
10-11-2006, 11:52 PM
Sorry, I meant to be helpful.

Larkin Fan
10-11-2006, 11:55 PM
Sorry, I meant to be helpful.

No need to apologize. You weren't one of the posters my post was directed towards.

remdog
10-12-2006, 12:05 AM
The thread was here before the world knew about Corey Lidle.

And, now that the world knows about Corey Lidle, move it to a logical baseball related forum. He is (was) a baseball player and a former Red at that. Not to mention that no one bothered to change the title of the thread until someone mentioned that there was nothing noteing Cory Lidle in this thread. The mods were too busy closeing threads rather than let the topic be discussed in the appropriate place.

It was roughly two and a half hours between the time Lidle was noted in the text of the non-baseball thread until he was added to the title but, in that time, several threads in the appropriate locations (ORG and Reds Live!) were closed.

By ChipR: "I think most people on here are smart enough to know that a plane piloted by Corey Lidle crashed into a building today so they can put two and two together and realize that just perhaps the thread on non-baseball about the plane crashing might be about that very subject."

Nice comment Chip but gee, we were busy going to the logical place to learn about the death of a baseball player and a former Red. How silly of us.

Rem

remdog
10-12-2006, 12:18 AM
Common sense? Common sense would have been to assume that this was posted before the information about Lidle was known. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter where this is posted.

Frankly, I'm tired of seeing these types of threads end up like this. This thread is about a tragedy in which human lives were lost and all several of you want to do is pick nits about rather insignificant BS? Get your priorities straight.

LF:

See my post above.

And let me remind you of something----people die every minute of every day. They die from everything from chokeing on an olive to shooting themselves in the head to getting hit by a bus to falling down the stairs. Death is part of everyone's life. I'm not being insensitive here, it's just a fact. And the reason this particular death is even talked about is because (1) it was spectacular and (2) it involved a baseball player.

I'm going to die, you're going to die, everyone on this board will, sooner or later, die. Telling people to get their priorities straight is nothing more than trying to impose your values on someone else. We all deal with death, some just understand that it's part of life.

Rem

TeamBoone
10-12-2006, 12:31 AM
Yes, it's a part of life... but that does not make it any less tragic when it happens.

I'm still at a loss as to why his name was released before his family was notified. That really stinks, and it's not the norm.

If it was because they wanted to reassure our nation that it wasn't terrist related, all they had to do was say so and that names would be released pending family notifications.

remdog
10-12-2006, 12:43 AM
Yes, it's a part of life... but that does not make it any less tragic when it happens.

But, if we truly valued every life equally, we would be paralized beyond function. Once again, this got headlines because of the spectacular nature and that fact that a victum was a major league ballplayer. We haven't heard the same outpouring for the other passenger (reportedly the flight instructor) have we? Where are the 130 responces to that person's death? (shrug)

Rem

savafan
10-12-2006, 01:16 AM
I was watching the coverage of this all day, from about 3:00 PM until I left work at 12:00 AM. I really don't know what to say. I'm shocked, stunned and saddened. RIP Cory Lidle. My prayers go out to his family, friends and fans.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/savafan/LidleTribute.jpg

jhiller21
10-12-2006, 02:30 AM
I'm probably not the first to say this, but had the Yanks won the ALDS this would never had happened...

Personally, I blame ARod.

On a more serious note, god bless his wife and kid... I watched Lidle pitch in person many times for the Reds, and knowing he's now dead brings back the same feeling Dernell Stenson's death did, RIP Cory.

GAC
10-12-2006, 04:52 AM
I followed this story all day yesterday like most of you did. But when I found out it involved Cory Lidle I was simply shocked. I had to look again and "who?"

What bothered me was all the speculation that was being thrown out by the media as this was unfolding.... it was a small plane, then possibly a helicopter. Then the media was throwing out all types of speculation as to why it crashed... the plane was doing stunts over the river, and then near the buildings, mechanical failure, ran out of gas, etc, etc.

I fully understand that when something like this happens, especially looking at the times we live in and the fact it happened in NYC, that people have this need to know. I just think the media does overkill and senstionalizes these types of situations like this when they really know no more then we do.

I would rather they'd wait till they have more FACTS, and then come back and interrupt programming to give updates.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Lidle family. I know it had to be devastating to find out about your son on TV.

I would hope that the MLB play-off games would make special mention and pay tribute to Cory and his family during this difficult time.

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 06:28 AM
And, now that the world knows about Corey Lidle, move it to a logical baseball related forum. He is (was) a baseball player and a former Red at that. Not to mention that no one bothered to change the title of the thread until someone mentioned that there was nothing noteing Cory Lidle in this thread. The mods were too busy closeing threads rather than let the topic be discussed in the appropriate place.

Wow...stunning. A thread about the human tragedy that unfolded yesterday, baseball player or no, and here on Redszone it devolves into a cat fight over which forum a thread should be in.

I know, I'll be pounded for daring to quash free speach and imposing values on people. :rolleyes:

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 06:32 AM
What bothered me was all the speculation that was being thrown out by the media as this was unfolding.... it was a small plane, then possibly a helicopter. Then the media was throwing out all types of speculation as to why it crashed... the plane was doing stunts over the river, and then near the buildings, mechanical failure, ran out of gas, etc, etc.

I fully understand that when something like this happens, especially looking at the times we live in and the fact it happened in NYC, that people have this need to know. I just think the media does overkill and senstionalizes these types of situations like this when they really know no more then we do.

At one point a reporter live on sceen commented, "the structure of the building looks weak". I thought it was amazing that they found a person who could both do news reports and had Xray vision to inspect the structural steel elements of the building.

I know what you mean GAC, and I complain about it to. But then when something like yesterday happens I'm glued to the TV set wildly flipping channels back and forth. I guess maybe I'm part of the problem.

GAC
10-12-2006, 06:57 AM
I guess maybe I'm part of the problem.

Not just you.... we all are!

In this information age where our technology puts us right there on the scene as it's unfolding, we become enthralled and can't turn away.

There is almost a sense of morbid to it.

cumberlandreds
10-12-2006, 07:29 AM
RIP Cory Lidle. It is always a sad time when a current or former MLB player dies. I can remember both Clemente and Munson when they died in plane crashes. It was a very sad time. Almost surreal that someone in their prime of life died this tragically. Our prayers and thoughts will be with the Lidle family during this very difficult time.

cumberlandreds
10-12-2006, 07:32 AM
Yes, it's a part of life... but that does not make it any less tragic when it happens.

I'm still at a loss as to why his name was released before his family was notified. That really stinks, and it's not the norm.

If it was because they wanted to reassure our nation that it wasn't terrist related, all they had to do was say so and that names would be released pending family notifications.


I totally agree with you. His name should not have been released until his wife was notified. Then others could have been after that like his father. I couldn't imagine looking up on the TV screen and seeing a picture of my wife with the birth and death dates. I think I would freak out. It was totally irresponsible by whoever first released his name.

vaticanplum
10-12-2006, 07:57 AM
I'm probably not the first to say this, but had the Yanks won the ALDS this would never had happened...

Larry Bowa said the same thing on the radio yesteryday...and he was completely sincere. I mean, he said a lot of other stuff too, but he said, "you just can't help thinking...if we had just done what we were supposed to last week, we'd be in Oakland right now and none of this would have happened." I had to smile at the phrasing. That Yankee mentality never goes away, even if it does get thrown into perspective once in a while.

On a lighter note, this was posted on my Yankees board, and it's surprisingly touching (scroll down to the "chat"). Yes, humor can be classy.

http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/

And, related to the crash but not to Lidle:

http://flickr.com/photos/minor9th/267206005/

KittyDuran
10-12-2006, 08:05 AM
It was roughly two and a half hours between the time Lidle was noted in the text of the non-baseball thread until he was added to the title but, in that time, several threads in the appropriate locations (ORG and Reds Live!) were closed. I bolded that for emphasis... How many times have people complained about dueling threads on Reds Live! and ORG over much more trival things. It was not known that a baseball player was aboard that aircraft when it was first reported, so Matt starts a thread on Chatter. I was actually listening to Cunningham on WLW when he started speaking in a almost monotone and states that a aircraft has just crashed into a highrise in NYC. I quickly go to Drudge (who has nothing!) then to MSNBC and FOX who only have a breaking news banners. My heart was pounding thinking that this is a terrorist attack. When it became known that Cory Lidle was on the plane it brought a personal aspect to the tragedy. But to nit-pick over where this thread should be makes me what to :bang:

[and almost issue my first negs EVER...:thumbdown ]

Larkin Fan
10-12-2006, 08:11 AM
LF:

See my post above.

And let me remind you of something----people die every minute of every day. They die from everything from chokeing on an olive to shooting themselves in the head to getting hit by a bus to falling down the stairs. Death is part of everyone's life. I'm not being insensitive here, it's just a fact. And the reason this particular death is even talked about is because (1) it was spectacular and (2) it involved a baseball player.

I'm going to die, you're going to die, everyone on this board will, sooner or later, die. Telling people to get their priorities straight is nothing more than trying to impose your values on someone else. We all deal with death, some just understand that it's part of life.

Rem

Gee, Rem, thanks for the life lesson. I think given the career path I've chosen I fully understand that death is a part of life. And you might want to read my post again. I said "human lives." I do not and never will value one human life over another. Keep spinning it any way you want to, but the fact remains that there is a time and a place for everything and this isn't it.

Roy Tucker
10-12-2006, 08:14 AM
Yes, it's a part of life... but that does not make it any less tragic when it happens.

I'm still at a loss as to why his name was released before his family was notified. That really stinks, and it's not the norm.

If it was because they wanted to reassure our nation that it wasn't terrist related, all they had to do was say so and that names would be released pending family notifications.

I think under more normal circumstances this would have been the case. If it were a car crash or something similar, the protocols are well-established and people know what to do.

In this case, it was a spectacular plane crash in a part of NYC where 9/11 nerves are still very sensitive and people want to be informed down to the nanosecond. He was a Yankees pitcher and a public person. Plus, flight plans are logged with the FAA, it was probably easy to deduce who the plane belonged to, Lidle's passport fell to the street below, etc etc.

I think his name got out before anyone had a chance to think through the personal ramifications of it all. Not to excuse it, but it's at least understandable.

I did watch about 1/2 hour of the CNN coverage of this. The CNN news machine certainly can grind out every ounce of opinion and fact and restate it many times over.

Anyhow, RIP Cory and my condolences to his wife, child, family, and friends.

dabvu2498
10-12-2006, 08:18 AM
I'm probably not the first to say this, but had the Yanks won the ALDS this would never had happened...


I was so "out of it" when I heard that Lidle was piloting that plane that I said to myself, "aren't they playing tonight?"

Oops.

Terrible tragedy for all of the family, friends, teammates and coworkers. Thoughts and prayers, everybody. That's all.

Larkin Fan
10-12-2006, 08:21 AM
In this case, it was a spectacular plane crash in a part of NYC where 9/11 nerves are still very sensitive and people want to be informed down to the nanosecond. He was a Yankees pitcher and a public person. Plus, flight plans are logged with the FAA, it was probably easy to deduce who the plane belonged to, Lidle's passport fell to the street below, etc etc.

All of that information came from an "unnamed" federal official who, IMO, should have known to keep quiet until the notifications had been made.

I can understand it wanting to be known that this was not a terrorist attack, but once again a family suffers from insensitive handling of a story by the media. Nobody should have to find out that way.

MrCinatit
10-12-2006, 08:35 AM
On a lighter note, this was posted on my Yankees board, and it's surprisingly touching (scroll down to the "chat"). Yes, humor can be classy.

http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/



That was actually rather spectacular, VP, at least in my opinion. Got a chuckle out of having some beers with Ruth and Johnson's career. Good stuff.

goreds2
10-12-2006, 08:39 AM
R.i.p.

Highlifeman21
10-12-2006, 09:18 AM
It was reported on Fox news at about 10pm that the plane apparently ran out of gas. An instructer was on board as well and pilot error(during the flight anyway) is not expected.

If the plane had had enough fuel to reach Nashville, where Lidle had reservations tonight, the fire would have been a lot more intense.

The plane was only 20 miles form the airport in New Jersey were it took off.

Very sad.


If this is true, what a fatal oversight. That two people could overlook this fact before getting into a plane amazes me.

Regardless, it's a sad event for the Lidle family, as well as the entire baseball community. When Lidle was with the Phillies last year, I had the chance to play golf with him and Brett Myers at the private club at which I was an Asst. Pro, and Cory was one of the more classy athletes/celebrities I've met. That memory will serve how I always remember Cory Lidle.

Unassisted
10-12-2006, 10:00 AM
For the aircraft enthusiasts among us, here's the FAA registry record for Lidle's plane.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?verified=1&NNumbertxt=929CD

Red Leader
10-12-2006, 10:03 AM
For the aircraft enthusiasts among us, here's the FAA registry record for Lidle's plane.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?verified=1&NNumbertxt=929CD

I hope that doesn't provide Cory's home address. That info shouldn't be made public, or if public, not made so easily accessible. Just my opinion.

dabvu2498
10-12-2006, 10:06 AM
I hope that doesn't provide Cory's home address. That info shouldn't be made public, or if public, not made so easily accessible. Just my opinion.

It does.

savafan
10-12-2006, 10:20 AM
I know very little about aviation. Would the plane running out of gas cause it to lose communications when it reached the 59th street bridge?

Also, there was earlier a report that a distress call was made shortly after take-off. Does anyone know if this has been confirmed anywhere yet?

savafan
10-12-2006, 10:21 AM
It does.

Seeing as how Cory lived in California, I don't believe that was his home address.

dabvu2498
10-12-2006, 10:28 AM
Seeing as how Cory lived in California, I don't believe that was his home address.


Lidle has played in the majors for nearly a decade, including a stint with the Devil Rays in 1999 and 2000. He currently owns a home in Lakeland.


http://cfn13.com/StoryHeadline.aspx?id=19290

dabvu2498
10-12-2006, 10:34 AM
Lidle's background as a player is also quite interesting. He was undrafted out of high school, did not attend college but was signed as an undrafted free agent the summer after he finished high school.

Spent two years in the Twins organization then was released and signed by Pocatello of the Pioneer League, which was operating as an independant club at the time. Spent the season there, then was signed by the Brewers organization. Crossed the strike line in 1995 as a "replacement player."

Definately took a long, hard road to Major League Baseball.

RBA
10-12-2006, 10:46 AM
It's unforunate that his family were notified mostly by News report. But, his name being released re-assured many Amerians (many who were in Panic mode: 9/11) that this could no way be a terrorist attack. I don't have much problem with the media realeasing his name. It might of been handled better, but I think it's being blown out of proportion.

Johnny Footstool
10-12-2006, 10:52 AM
I hope that doesn't provide Cory's home address. That info shouldn't be made public, or if public, not made so easily accessible. Just my opinion.

Addresses are easily accessible -- just google someone's name or look in the phone book.

vaticanplum
10-12-2006, 11:27 AM
Lidle's background as a player is also quite interesting. He was undrafted out of high school, did not attend college but was signed as an undrafted free agent the summer after he finished high school.

Spent two years in the Twins organization then was released and signed by Pocatello of the Pioneer League, which was operating as an independant club at the time. Spent the season there, then was signed by the Brewers organization. Crossed the strike line in 1995 as a "replacement player."

Definately took a long, hard road to Major League Baseball.

Cory's path has been a big topic in Yankeeland, for the potentially treacherous reason that since he was not a member of the Players' Union, he receives no pension. It's unlikely to get too ugly because the Yankees will no doubt make the effort to set up the Lidles, because they are financially able to do so and typically a gracious enough organization to do so. but unbelievably, if they didn't, or even if they did so quietly, the Players' association could well step in to order the Yankees' to pay up from an organizational standpoint -- all while absolving themselves of any responsibility to do so themselves since Cory himself was not a union member.

I have a friend who's pretty fired up about this. He has some serious issues with the details of the players' union, and find it bizarre that it is their "duty" to protect any player from steroid investigation or from punishment for, say, altercations with fans, while it is not their "duty" to provide for the Lidle family since Cory broke the rules during the strike in order to work. Had he not done so, he may not have had a baseball career. And yet the organization set up to protect baseball players would/will not protect him.

My friend (a Red Sox fan, incidentally) said he almost hopes that the Yankees make a bit of a show about taking care of the Lidle family -- and act which they will more than likely do -- just to point out the ridiculousness of the Players' Union's stance on all this.

Redsland
10-12-2006, 11:29 AM
I would rather they'd wait till they have more FACTS, and then come back and interrupt programming to give updates.
Man, I couldn't agree with this more.

It's no wonder wild stories circulate the way commentators blur facts and rumors. On 9/11 the Mall was reportedly on fire and a suicide bomber had hit the State Department. After Katrina, New Orleans had reportedly "dodged a bullet" because the levees supposedly held, then a few days later, gangs were reportedly roaming the Superdome shooting and raping people. All of these examples were uncomfirmed rumors at best, and lies at worst. But they were repeated on the air by our news sources, so people had to take the reports seriously. In the aftermath, who knows what to believe?

As to whether the plane ran out of fuel, my first instinct is to discount this out of hand, based on the fact that the plane had only been aloft for 20 minutes, the fact the fuel samples were reportedly taken at the scene, and the fact that something caused a big fire.

I think Ltlabner is right in speculating that the plane stalled during a turn. Apparantly this particular flight corridor requires pilots to make a tight U-turn from northward to southward to avoid LaGuardia's airspace. Making a tight turn like that can be tricky because it involves pitching the nose up to prevent the loss of too much altitude during the turn, followed by coordinated use of both rudder pedals and aileron inputs from the stick. The nose-up attitude bleeds off airspeed, and the high bank angle of the wings moves your "lift vector" away from the vertical. An inexperienced pilot who is trying to stay in his flight corridor and execute a tight turn while watching his dials to keep the turn "coordinated" and also avoid hitting other aircraft could easily have overlooked the fact that his airspeed was dropping near stall speed. After the nose-up climb had slowed the plane and stalled the wings, the nose would have fallen below the horizon, causing the plane to dive to regain speed. This is reportedly what happened prior to impact.

So according to the reports so far, I'd say it looks like a combination of A) inexperienced pilot, B) low altitude, C) busy corridor, and D) tricky manuever ultimately overwhelmed the pilot and caused him to make a tragic error.

Of course, this speculation is based on media reports, which we've already established can be way off the mark, so who knows. An instructor was reportedly aboard the plane, and would have likely been helping Cory watch his dials and/or traffic, which makes a stall less likely, so perhaps the real facts are yet to be discovered.

Chip R
10-12-2006, 11:34 AM
It's unforunate that his family were notified mostly by News report. But, his name being released re-assured many Amerians (many who were in Panic mode: 9/11) that this could no way be a terrorist attack. I don't have much problem with the media realeasing his name. It might of been handled better, but I think it's being blown out of proportion.


But they could have told people that they knew the name of the pilot and it wasn't terrorism and they are waiting to notify the families before they release the names to the public.

dabvu2498
10-12-2006, 11:40 AM
Cory's path has been a big topic in Yankeeland, for the potentially treacherous reason that since he was not a member of the Players' Union, he receives no pension. It's unlikely to get too ugly because the Yankees will no doubt make the effort to set up the Lidles, because they are financially able to do so and typically a gracious enough organization to do so. but unbelievably, if they didn't, or even if they did so quietly, the Players' association could well step in to order the Yankees' to pay up from an organizational standpoint -- all while absolving themselves of any responsibility to do so themselves since Cory himself was not a union member.

I have a friend who's pretty fired up about this. He has some serious issues with the details of the players' union, and find it bizarre that it is their "duty" to protect any player from steroid investigation or from punishment for, say, altercations with fans, while it is not their "duty" to provide for the Lidle family since Cory broke the rules during the strike in order to work. Had he not done so, he may not have had a baseball career. And yet the organization set up to protect baseball players would/will not protect him.

My friend (a Red Sox fan, incidentally) said he almost hopes that the Yankees make a bit of a show about taking care of the Lidle family -- and act which they will more than likely do -- just to point out the ridiculousness of the Players' Union's stance on all this.

Cory Lidle made somewhere in the range of $17-18M as a baseball player over his MLB career. Hopefully a good percentage of this is still available to his wife and child through investments. I'm sure the Yankees and MLB will take measures to ensure that his family is "taken care of" for the rest of their lives.

It will be interesting to see if the MLBPA is active in this effort as well. I can sympathize with their views regarding the "replacement players" who crossed in 1995, but hopefully they have enough "values" to assist Cory's family.

vaticanplum
10-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Cory Lidle made somewhere in the range of $17-18M as a baseball player over his MLB career. Hopefully a good percentage of this is still available to his wife and child through investments. I'm sure the Yankees and MLB will take measures to ensure that his family is "taken care of" for the rest of their lives.

It will be interesting to see if the MLBPA is active in this effort as well. I can sympathize with their views regarding the "replacement players" who crossed in 1995, but hopefully they have enough "values" to assist Cory's family.

Oh, I have no doubt that the family will be stable and that the Yankees will see to this anyway. My friend's beef is just with the hypocrisy of the Players' Association, whom he does not believe will give financial aid, though they may ensure that the Yankees do.

RBA
10-12-2006, 11:48 AM
But they could have told people that they knew the name of the pilot and it wasn't terrorism and they are waiting to notify the families before they release the names to the public.

Yup, they could have, but they didn't. Was it intentional for a ratings grab? Might be.

RBA
10-12-2006, 11:56 AM
deleted by member

RBA
10-12-2006, 12:33 PM
deleted by member

TeamBoone
10-12-2006, 12:52 PM
That was actually rather spectacular, VP, at least in my opinion. Got a chuckle out of having some beers with Ruth and Johnson's career. Good stuff.

I agree. Thanks for sharing it with us VP.

oneupper
10-12-2006, 01:02 PM
I know very little about aviation. Would the plane running out of gas cause it to lose communications when it reached the 59th street bridge?



I know very little also, but planes (like cars) have electrical systems which run independently. If the plane was out of gas, the radio should still work.

TeamBoone
10-12-2006, 01:05 PM
10-12-2006


Former teammates grieve friend
By Marc Lancaster / Post staff reporter

It had been a few hours since Aaron Harang found out his friend and former teammate Cory Lidle had been killed when the plane he was piloting crashed in New York, but the Reds pitcher still sounded shaken early Wednesday evening.

"It's an absolute shock," Harang said from his San Diego home. "It's unbelievable what we take for granted in life. Things can change faster than you can think."

Harang's thoughts raced, from the friendship his wife, Jennifer, had cultivated with Lidle's wife, Melanie, to the conversation he had with Lidle last winter in which his fellow Southern Californian offered a lift in his plane anytime Harang wanted to play golf somewhere distant.

Lidle, 34, was a Red for only a few months. He signed a one-year contract with Cincinnati on Dec. 29, 2003, and started 24 games for the Reds before being traded to Philadelphia on Aug. 9, 2004, for minor leaguers Elizardo Ramirez, Javon Moran and Joe Wilson.

Harang knew him better than most who met the pitcher during his time in Cincinnati. Before Lidle's stint with the Reds, the two were teammates with the Oakland Athletics in 2002, Harang's first major league season.

"I'm thinking about his wife," Harang said. "Jennifer knew his wife from Oakland and when he played with us (in Cincinnati)."

Lidle also left a 6-year-old son, Christopher.

The news of the crash into a Manhattan high-rise stunned Lidle's former teammates. Outfielder Adam Dunn participated the last two winters in Lidle's celebrity poker tournament in Las Vegas, a fund-raiser for the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

"It's sad," Dunn said Wednesday night. "It really puts things in perspective. It's just incredible."

Flying was a passion Lidle developed after leaving Cincinnati. According to the New York Times, he hit upon the idea of getting his pilot's license last year while playing for the Philadelphia Phillies, then made it his offseason goal to follow through on all the training he needed.

"I don't remember him ever talking about flying," Reds outfielder Ken Griffey Jr. said Wednesday.

Griffey could occasionally be seen studying pilots' manuals in the clubhouse during this season. He isn't nearly as far along the path to solo flying as Lidle was, though.

As Griffey spoke late Wednesday afternoon, CNN was audible in the background. He paused frequently to listen to the latest updates on the crash.

"I don't even know what to say," he said.

In an interview with ESPN before Game 2 of the American League Championship Series, Detroit first baseman Sean Casey spoke of a conversation he had with his former Reds teammate last week when the Tigers were in New York.

"We had some long talks about how everything was going and all that stuff," Casey said. "That makes it even weirder for me, just seeing him about a week ago. I can't believe it."

Reds manager Jerry Narron wasn't aware of Lidle's death until a reporter informed him of the accident early Wednesday evening. The topic was especially sensitive to Narron, considering his role in history. After Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was killed when his plane crashed in Canton, Ohio, on Aug. 2, 1979, Narron replaced Munson behind the plate for New York's next game.

The Reds released a statement that included condolences from general manager Wayne Krivsky, who was still working in Minnesota during Lidle's Cincinnati tenure.

"The Reds family and all of baseball are very saddened by the news of the accident and Cory's death," Krivsky's statement read. "Our thoughts and prayers are with their friends and families."

Harang's certainly were. He and his wife were at a doctor's appointment with their week-old daughter, Addison, when Jennifer's brother sent Harang a text message with the news about Lidle.

"It's a tough situation all around," Harang said. "He's definitely going to be missed. He was a great guy and a good teammate and a good ballplayer."

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061012/NEWS01/610120329/1027/SPT05

Redsland
10-12-2006, 01:14 PM
I know very little also, but planes (like cars) have electrical systems which run independently. If the plane was out of gas, the radio should still work.
Correct.

klw
10-12-2006, 01:25 PM
Here's a great article on the ESPN site by Alan Schwarz who was friends with Lidle and had recently turned down flying up the East River with him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=schwarz_alan&id=2622245

WMR
10-12-2006, 01:47 PM
Cory Lidle made somewhere in the range of $17-18M as a baseball player over his MLB career. Hopefully a good percentage of this is still available to his wife and child through investments. I'm sure the Yankees and MLB will take measures to ensure that his family is "taken care of" for the rest of their lives.
It will be interesting to see if the MLBPA is active in this effort as well. I can sympathize with their views regarding the "replacement players" who crossed in 1995, but hopefully they have enough "values" to assist Cory's family.


Taken care of for the rest of their lives????

The man was a professional athlete for over 10 years and made millions of dollars.

I could see setting up a college fund or something for the kids and helping the wife get back on her feet if they didn't have any of those millions remaining, but she should be going to work.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2006, 03:02 PM
Yup, they could have, but they didn't. Was it intentional for a ratings grab? Might be.

I would hope not. There needs to be a line drawn between news and common decency....

GAC
10-12-2006, 03:09 PM
news and common decency....

That's an oxymoron if ever I saw one. ;)

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 04:02 PM
As to whether the plane ran out of fuel, my first instinct is to discount this out of hand, based on the fact that the plane had only been aloft for 20 minutes, the fact the fuel samples were reportedly taken at the scene, and the fact that something caused a big fire.

I think Ltlabner is right in speculating that the plane stalled during a turn. Apparantly this particular flight corridor requires pilots to make a tight U-turn from northward to southward to avoid LaGuardia's airspace. Making a tight turn like that can be tricky because it involves pitching the nose up to prevent the loss of too much altitude during the turn, followed by coordinated use of both rudder pedals and aileron inputs from the stick. .

NOTE: ALL OF THIS IS PURE SPECULATION!

There were early reports of a mayday call including a comment about a fuel problem, but that doesn't necesarly mean a lack of fuel. The SR-20 has a normally aspirated Contential engine so anything from fuel contamination, to fuel line issues, to carberator ice (doubtfull) would generally be considered a "fuel" issue. Plus when under stress human tendency is to blurt out short, chopped sentences, not whole compelte thoughts. Not to mention I don't believe the reports of the mayday call are confirmed.

The giantic scorch mark on the side of the building and the inensity of the fire make it hard to believe they experienced fuel starvation.

Redsland, add to all the enviromental factors the funky wind currents comming off the near by buildings and heat updraft and such a turn gets even tricker. Purley guesswork is that he tired to complete the turn and either lost situational awareness of how close he was to the buildings and paniced leading to a loss of control, or stalled/spun during the turn by losing too much airspeed (possibly excaerbated by strange wind currents off the buildings) and control was lost too quickly and with too little time to recover.

The presenece of a flight instructor does make for interesting speculations. Was there a major systems failure that distracted both pilots so they didn't realize the direction the aircraft was headed? If there was a loss of controll due to stall did it happen so quickly and at so low of altitidue that the instructor didn't have time to take the controls and recover (which takes altitude and pointing the nose of the aircraft downward...not a plesant alternative when a high-rise is dead ahead). Perhaps the instructor was too lax since this was a baseball star and a sight seeing trip (allthough I suspect this was a sort of check ride before Corey headed out cross country, in questionable VFR weather and a uncertinan amount of recient flying time).

Anyway, while it doesn't change the outcome one bit, I find solece in understanding what went wrong and lead to this tragic accident.

Red Leader
10-12-2006, 04:06 PM
This might be taken as an extremely stupid question, but I just thought I'd ask, because I don't know much at all about smaller airplanes, but do these smaller aircrafts have "black boxes" on them that you would typically find on larger commercial jet aircraft?

In other words, is there a black box on this aircraft that they could recover to find out what was said by pilot / instructor shortly before the crash to confirm what the issue was?

Again, sorry if this is an obvious "Duh!" question, but I just thought I'd ask.

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 04:12 PM
This might be taken as an extremely stupid question, but I just thought I'd ask, because I don't know much at all about smaller airplanes, but do these smaller aircrafts have "black boxes" on them that you would typically find on larger commercial jet aircraft?

In other words, is there a black box on this aircraft that they could recover to find out what was said by pilot / instructor shortly before the crash to confirm what the issue was?

Again, sorry if this is an obvious "Duh!" question, but I just thought I'd ask.

You never know till you ask, my friend.

But no, general aviation aircraft do not have, nor are mandiated to have either flight data recorders (that record mechanical actions - engine speeds, flight control positions, etc etc) or cockpit voice recorders (which record the voices and noises inside the cockpit).

Both of those items are generally refered to as "the black boxes". Irronically, they are always painted in bright "international" orange to aid in locating them in the midst of debris and distruction.

Red Leader
10-12-2006, 04:23 PM
Thanks, Ltlabner.

Figured that was probably the case or we would have heard in some news report that they were desperately looking to locate the black box to further the investigation. Personally, I think all aircraft should be equipped with them.

Larkin Fan
10-12-2006, 04:26 PM
Unfortunately, it really appears that there are a lot of questions that we are just never going to know the answers to. No matter how thorough of an investigation is conducted.

Caseyfan21
10-12-2006, 04:37 PM
Here's a great article on the ESPN site by Alan Schwarz who was friends with Lidle and had recently turned down flying up the East River with him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=schwarz_alan&id=2622245

Excellent article, I was actually just coming into the thread to post a link to it. I think it really captures the person more than most news agencies which I really presented him as the athlete.

I had the pleasure of meeting him on a couple of occasions during his brief time with the Reds and he really seemed to be a nice guy. I think all the news stories, like this one, have really hit on the point well that he is just a down to earth guy.

Unassisted
10-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Here's a good article about Lidle's co-pilot/instructor who was also killed in the accident.

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2006/10/12/397554-lidles-instructor-loved-flying

dman
10-12-2006, 07:27 PM
I found this info on a pilot's website. This is Cory's info, and what ratings he had.

Name : LIDLE, CORY FULTON
Airman's Address : 7824 SUGAR PINE BLVD
LAKELAND, FL, 33810-1383
FAA Region : Southern
Date of Medical : Nov, 2005
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration of Class 3 : Nov, 2008
Airman Certificates : Private Pilot
Airplane Single Engine Land

Just for grins and giggles, John Travolta's info also:

Name : TRAVOLTA, JOHN JOSEPH
Airman's Address : 15821 VENTURA BLVD STE 460
ENCINO, CA, 91436-4778
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Sep, 2005
Class of Medical : 1
Expiration of Class 1 : Mar, 2006
Airman Certificates : Private Pilot
Airplane Single and Multi Engine Land
Instrument Airplane

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 08:15 PM
From the book, "The Killing Zone" by Paul Craig, (McGraw Hill, pgs 10-11)...

The following is in reference to a National Transportation Saftey Board report issued in 1979. It studies general aviation accidents from 1964 to 1972 and found the following chilling conclusions:

"The 1974 study ended with a statistical summary that made a profile of the pilot who would most like be involved in a fatal, weather related accident.

1) Had recieved an adequate preflight weather breifing
2) Was on a pleasure flight
3) Had less than 100 flight hours in the aircraft being flown
4) Had a private pilot certificate
5) Had been practicing for instrument flight...
6) Had not filed a flight plan
7) Was accompanied by at least one passenger
8) And had between 100 and 299 hours of experience"

Weather has not been indicated nor ruled as a probable cause or contributing factor but the rest of the list seemingly describes Corey's fatal flight very closely.

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 09:26 PM
From Foxnews.com - "She (Debbie Hersman, NTSB investigator) said investigators were taking fuel samples, looking at maintenance records and examining Lidle's flight log book — "anything that will give us a clue about what happened."

From forbes.com - "Early examination indicates that the propellers were turning" at the time of impact, Hersman said, suggesting the engine was still running.

Both the taking of fuel samples, and the indication that the propeller was still spining would seemingly rule out fuel starvation.

From forbes.com - Hersman said the single-engine plane was cruising at 112 mph at 700 feet of altitude as it tried to make a U-turn to go south down the East River. It was last seen on radar about a quarter-mile north of the building, in the middle of the turn, at 500 feet.

IF this is true the aircraft had already decended 200' within a short period of time. IIRC the building was aprox 40 stories so assuming 10' per story that's a 400' tall building. He was only 100' above the height of the building half way through the turn and possibly still decending. From there, a number of scenarios could unfold that result in the loss of control and flight into the building.

There are also some reports that the flight instructor had either not taken a Cirrus (manufacturer of the aircraft) provided training course or had not spent time with a Cirrus certified instructor. I'm getting conflicting info there. But either way, if the flight instructor was not proficient with that particular aircraft and it's inherrent flight characteristics his ability to help Corey stay clear of trouble would be greatly diminished.

GAC
10-12-2006, 10:06 PM
They reported on the news tonight though that there was very little fuel at the accident scene - below on the ground, and evaluating/gauging the size of the fire.

Ltlabner
10-12-2006, 10:20 PM
Here's a link to the specifications of the SR-20 aircraft for those interested ...

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft/sr20specs/

You'll have to click on "SR20 Specifications" to the left of the screen to bring up the details as I can't seem to get the full link to work.

Redsland
10-13-2006, 11:23 AM
From forbes.com - Hersman said the single-engine plane was cruising at 112 mph at 700 feet of altitude as it tried to make a U-turn to go south down the East River. It was last seen on radar about a quarter-mile north of the building, in the middle of the turn, at 500 feet.

IF this is true the aircraft had already decended 200' within a short period of time. IIRC the building was aprox 40 stories so assuming 10' per story that's a 400' tall building. He was only 100' above the height of the building half way through the turn and possibly still decending.
Yep. He'd lost 200 feet of altitude when he was half-way through the turn. If he maintained the same rate of decent throughout the turn, he'd have come through 180 degrees at an altitude of 300 feet, or about 30 stories above the ground. And sure enough, he hit the building on the 31st/32nd floors.

It seems plausible that he made a slightly wide, descending turn, followed by a quick nose-up when the wings came level and he saw a building in front of him.

Note here (http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Lift/graphics/Radius_Graph.GIF), for example, that a turn with a 40 degree bank at 112 mph (97 knots) has a radius of 1,000 feet. Taking that same turn with just 30 degrees of bank would cause the pilot to overshoot his target by over 500 feet. Using Google Earth, I see that the center of the building is 530 feet from the center of the river's nearest channel. So if Cory entered the turn with the intention of completing it in the center of the western channel of the East River, then a ten-degree difference in bank angle would have been the difference between being over the river, or over the building. Subtract 400 feet of altitude, and you'd have a disaster.

Reds Fanatic
10-13-2006, 11:44 AM
According to this article Lidle's family may not get the benefits from the player's association if he was flying the plane at the time of the accident.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/10/12/lidle.benefits.ap/index.html


Cory Lidle's beneficiaries could lose out on a $1.5 million benefit from baseball's benefit plan if it's determined he was piloting his plane when it crashed into a Manhattan high-rise.

While Lidle wasn't a member of the Major League Baseball Players Association licensing plan because he was a replacement player during the 1994-95 strike, the New York Yankees pitcher was covered by the union's benefit plan.

The plan calls for a $450,000 life insurance benefit and has an accidental death benefit of $1.05 million. However, the plan -- which applies to all big leaguers -- contains an exclusion for "any incident related to travel in an aircraft ... while acting in any capacity other than as a passenger."

Lidle and his flight instructor, Tyler Stanger, were killed Wednesday when Lidle's four-seat Cirrus SR20 crashed into a building on the Upper East Side. While Lidle was the registered owner of the aircraft, it has not been confirmed who was at the controls.

Lidle is survived by his wife, Melanie, and 6-year-old son, Christopher. The person he designated as his beneficiary was not immediately known. In addition, Lidle's wife is entitled to a widow's benefit under baseball's plan.

Lidle had 9 years, 100 days of major league service -- 72 days shy of being fully vested. Because of that, his wife would be entitled to $166,250 annually, which is 95 percent of the $175,000 maximum, an amount indexed for inflation. There is an additional $200 monthly dependent benefit added to the payments as long as the son is unmarried and until he is 19 -- or 23 if he is a full-time student.

Lidle had just completed a $6.3 million, two-year contract he signed with Philadelphia before the 2005 season.

vaticanplum
10-17-2006, 08:30 PM
An article about Cory's memorial service -- very sad. The family is asking that any donations be sent to the family of Tyler Stanger, the flight instructor who died in the crash. He was only 26, and left behind a little baby and a pregnant wife.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/sports/AP-BBA-Lidle-Memorial.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

NJReds
11-03-2006, 03:46 PM
An update on the story:


Safety officials say wind blew Lidle airplane off course

By LESLIE MILLER, Associated Press Writer
November 3, 2006

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A light wind was cited by federal investigators Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course and into a New York City high-rise on Oct. 11.

The National Transportation Safety Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building.

The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.

The report issued Friday said the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it attempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said in an update on the crash.

Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan before flying back to California.

Though Stanger was an experienced pilot, Lidle was not.

Investigators found no problem with the propeller and engine, nor did they find any evidence of a fire or other damage while the airplane was in flight.

If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.

Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small, fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with air traffic controllers.

Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons.

The NTSB's update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a later date.