PDA

View Full Version : Astros.com on Adam Dunn...



Matt700wlw
10-24-2006, 03:55 PM
From Astros.com

Question:
Rumor has it that the Reds are getting rid of their big strikeout hitter...Adam Dunn. Do you think the Astros will try to get him on a trade? I would love to see Adam here! His hometown is New Caney......Samuel R., Houston

Answer: from Alyson Footer / MLB.com
Apparently, Dunn is salivating at the idea of playing for his hometown Astros. And yes, the Reds are throwing around the idea of trading him for pitching. So it's something that I'm sure both teams will look into this winter.
I've made my opinions of Dunn clear in past mailbags, and those opinions aren't too popular among those who want the 6-foot-6 slugger in the Astros' lineup. I won't beat around the bush.. his 194 strikeouts make my stomach turn. The Astros have enough hitters who whiff on a much-too-regular basis. Why add another?
But a friend of mine who is close to the Reds organization swayed my opinions a bit. First of all, as we know, Dunn is a terrific home run hitter. He's hit at least 40 three years in a row. And he walks a lot. He's drawn at least 100 free passes in each of the last three seasons. He's averaging .380 in on-base percentage over that same span of time -- not too shabby.
He'd look quite nice hitting in the cleanup spot, behind Lance Berkman. Yes, I'll admit that. But a .234 batting average? Yikes

Red Leader
10-24-2006, 03:59 PM
Chicks dig teh batting average.

SultanOfSwing
10-24-2006, 04:00 PM
Nice find. But, I don't like the Astros as a trading partner.

vaticanplum
10-24-2006, 04:00 PM
I hope the Astros think along the same lines as Alyson Footer, and that WayneK does not.

What a dipstick, though.

vaticanplum
10-24-2006, 04:03 PM
Chicks dig teh batting average.

But real girls are smarter.

Red Leader
10-24-2006, 04:04 PM
But real girls are smarter.

Yes, yes they are. :)

ochre
10-24-2006, 04:06 PM
From Astros.com


Answer: from Alyson Footer / MLB.com

now we know astrobuddy's name irl!

westofyou
10-24-2006, 04:09 PM
Astros spelled backwards is Sortsa

http://www.great-music.net/image27.jpg

missionhockey21
10-24-2006, 04:10 PM
Psst.... guys, all Dunn does is think about going to Houston. In fact all of his defensive lapses or strikeouts caught looking were due to the reason that his attention was focused elsewhere.

terminator
10-24-2006, 04:15 PM
Geez, for his 190 K's, horrible RISP, terrible BA and horrific defense, there seem to be a lot of teams interested in taking him off of our hands for us . . .

Joseph
10-24-2006, 04:38 PM
Geez, for his 190 K's, horrible RISP, terrible BA and horrific defense, there seem to be a lot of teams interested in taking him off of our hands for us . . .

Because he's a special player. People get blinded by all those things you mentioned and forget how good he really is.

SultanOfSwing
10-24-2006, 04:48 PM
Because he's a special player. People get blinded by all those things you mentioned and forget how good he really is.
I think terminator was being sarcastic. He was pointing out how others seem to criticize Dunn while discussing how much they would love to have him. They think that by pointing out Dunn's faults they can drive the price down (in their fantasy world) and justify giving up nothing for him.

In other news Albert Pujols is not clutch (have you seen him in the playoffs?!!) and grounds into too many double plays. Johan Santana is way overrated because he doesn't throw CGs much less SHOs, and he has a great defense behind him. We should trade for those guys, but I wouldn't want to give up more than William Bergolla (I hear the Cardinals need a 2B), Tyler Pelland, or Scott Hatteburg. Ryan Freel and Todd Coffey are untouchable!

:evil:

schroomytunes
10-24-2006, 04:58 PM
If we were to make a trade with the Astros involving Dunn, than this is what I ask for in return:

Reds trade: Adam Dunn

Astros trade: Brandon Backe(SP) and Brad Lidge(cl)

I think Lidge will be fine once he gets out of Houston, where he can regain his closer's status, and Backe solidifies the #4 spot in the rotation. We then free up $ to go and sign some FA's

Patrick Bateman
10-24-2006, 05:01 PM
If we were to make a trade with the Astros involving Dunn, than this is what I ask for in return:

Reds trade: Adam Dunn

Astros trade: Brandon Backe(SP) and Brad Lidge(cl)

I think Lidge will be fine once he gets out of Houston, where he can regain his closer's status, and Backe solidifies the #4 spot in the rotation. We then free up $ to go and sign some FA's

Backe is injury prone and not particularly good.

Lidge just came off an awful year.

If we trade Dunn for pitching, we need better certainty for success, than two huge question marks.

schroomytunes
10-24-2006, 05:09 PM
Ok so you dont like Backe, what about this deal invoving the Astros.

Reds deal: Adam Dunn

Astros deal: Brad Lidge(CL) Willy Tavares(CF) and Jason Hirsch(SP)

Patrick Bateman
10-24-2006, 05:15 PM
It's a lot closer because of Hirsh, but I don't see much of a need for Taveres. Deno could outperform him in CF, and I certainly would not want Taveres in one of the corner spots (or Deno for that matter).

vaticanplum
10-24-2006, 05:15 PM
I've said it before and I know a lot of people think I'm crazy, but if I trade Dunn to the Astros, I take nothing less than Roy Oswalt, straight up.

Dunn is a top-tier hitter, and Oswalt is a top-tier pitcher. They're both pretty hard to come by in baseball, and this trade would play into rarities that both these teams need.

That said, I'm still not sure I'd do it; I'm not sold on trading Dunn at all, in any way. This offense would go from cracked to shattered without him.

Joseph
10-24-2006, 05:19 PM
I think terminator was being sarcastic.
:evil:

Naturally. I was just helping his point a little more and casting my vote in the 'Keep Dunn' category [barring a too good to refuse offer].

Patrick Bateman
10-24-2006, 05:24 PM
I've said it before and I know a lot of people think I'm crazy, but if I trade Dunn to the Astros, I take nothing less than Roy Oswalt, straight up.

Dunn is a top-tier hitter, and Oswalt is a top-tier pitcher. They're both pretty hard to come by in baseball, and this trade would play into rarities that both these teams need.

That said, I'm still not sure I'd do it; I'm not sold on trading Dunn at all, in any way. This offense would go from cracked to shattered without him.

Agreed. Oswalt is the only thing the Astros have in comparative value to Dunn. They are in a similar stage in their careers and are both great at what they do.

The fact that Houston just gave Oswalt a huge contract shows that they probably wont be trading him any time soon. I also have one concern with Oswalt and that has to do with height. I remember WOY showing a chart of how shorter pitchers lose effectiveness a lot faster than tall pitchers (Ex. Danny Graves). So I would be a little scared of trading Dunn for Oswalt too.

wolfboy
10-24-2006, 05:29 PM
From Astros.com

Question:
Rumor has it that the Reds are getting rid of their big strikeout hitter...Adam Dunn. Do you think the Astros will try to get him on a trade? I would love to see Adam here! His hometown is New Caney......Samuel R., Houston[/I]


Dear Samuel R. in Houston,

I cannot figure out what a "strikeout hitter" is. Please advise.

Sincerely,

wb

Handofdeath
10-24-2006, 05:35 PM
Backe is injury prone and not particularly good.

Lidge just came off an awful year.

If we trade Dunn for pitching, we need better certainty for success, than two huge question marks.

Reds fans are going to have to understand that other teams know about and can understand Dunn's pros and cons much better than we can. We argue about the K's and the OBP. The homers and how he plays defensively are another argument. If another team wants to make a possible deal it won't be with the emotion that the people on this board show. Other teams will simply ask three questions. Will he make us better? How much will he cost? What are we willing to give up? It will come down to simple needs and wants for the team. IMO? Dunn nets a #2 or 3 starter. The Astros don't have much that the Reds would want or need. Berkman and Oswalt maybe. Perhaps a straight up for Pettitte?

Patrick Bateman
10-24-2006, 05:37 PM
Reds fans are going to have to understand that other teams know about and can understand Dunn's pros and cons much better than we can. We argue about the K's and the OBP. The homers and how he plays defensively are another argument. If another team wants to make a possible deal it won't be with the emotion that the people on this board show. Other teams will simply ask three questions. Will he make us better? How much will he cost? What are we willing to give up? It will come down to simple needs and wants for the team. IMO? Dunn nets a #2 or 3 starter. The Astros don't have much that the Reds would want or need. Berkman and Oswalt maybe. Perhaps a straight up for Pettitte?

Pettitte's a FA I think, and he wont come to Cincy either way.

SeeinRed
10-24-2006, 05:42 PM
Dear Samuel R. in Houston,

I cannot figure out what a "strikeout hitter" is. Please advise.

Sincerely,

wb

I believe it is an oxymoron.;)

KronoRed
10-24-2006, 06:53 PM
Dunn is salivating so much he signed a 3 year deal with the Reds last year.

Makes perfect sense

Chip R
10-24-2006, 06:59 PM
From Astros.com

Question:
Rumor has it that the Reds are getting rid of their big strikeout hitter...Adam Dunn. Do you think the Astros will try to get him on a trade? I would love to see Adam here! His hometown is New Caney......Samuel R., Houston

Answer: from Alyson Footer / MLB.com
Apparently, Dunn is salivating at the idea of playing for his hometown Astros.


I guess that's why he signed that deal last year. :dunno:

Whoops. Krono beat me to it.

corkedbat
10-24-2006, 07:25 PM
Dunn nets a #2 or 3 starter.

That makes it easy. If all the Reds are offered is a #2 OR #3 starter, then he goes no where. A #2 AND a #3 starter (or a #2 and a closer), a good-hitting young 1B or OF and a solid MI, then you might deal. Other teams may balk, but that's the way it goes. I'm not saying that Dunn is worth that straight up, but he's the core of a deal that nets that kind of return or no deal.

You hold out for maximium return for Dunn or you talk to him about an extension. If an opposing GM can still sit down after dealing for Dunn, WK hasn't done his job. I've said it several times on this board, Dunn is not untouchable, but any deal for the Donk has to reshape the future of this francise in a positive way.

If worst comes to worst, you hold onto him for the next season and a half to bridge the gap between he and Bruce (hopefully), then you deal him at that trade deadline for a #2 or #3 starter.

MrCinatit
10-24-2006, 07:29 PM
If Dunn does get traded, I do hope it is not within the division - and I would prefer it not even be in the same league.
Though I do think Adam would enjoy facing some of our pitching.

Cedric
10-24-2006, 07:45 PM
Dunn is salivating so much he signed a 3 year deal with the Reds last year.

Makes perfect sense

How does equating last year to now make sense? This season was extremely rocky for Dunn on the field and he lost his best friend. The way he was ripped by the media and fans has to be another factor.

I'm not saying he wants out, but nothing is really the same from when he extended his deal.

dougdirt
10-24-2006, 08:08 PM
I think some of you overvalue Adam Dunn. Adam Dunn is not worth Roy Oswalt. Adam Dunn also is not worth "A #2 AND a #3 starter (or a #2 and a closer), a good-hitting young 1B or OF and a solid MI".

Maybe I am crazy, but there is no way in my mind is Adam Dunn worth that.

Handofdeath
10-24-2006, 08:28 PM
That makes it easy. If all the Reds are offered is a #2 OR #3 starter, then he goes no where. A #2 AND a #3 starter (or a #2 and a closer), a good-hitting young 1B or OF and a solid MI, then you might deal. Other teams may balk, but that's the way it goes. I'm not saying that Dunn is worth that straight up, but he's the core of a deal that nets that kind of return or no deal.

You hold out for maximium return for Dunn or you talk to him about an extension. If an opposing GM can still sit down after dealing for Dunn, WK hasn't done his job. I've said it several times on this board, Dunn is not untouchable, but any deal for the Donk has to reshape the future of this francise in a positive way.

If worst comes to worst, you hold onto him for the next season and a half to bridge the gap between he and Bruce (hopefully), then you deal him at that trade deadline for a #2 or #3 starter.

But holding on to him has its risks. His numbers have gone down for the last three years and teams know that. Team Clark himself has mentioned his lack of work ethic. Teams know this stuff. They know things about him we have no idea about. It's time for him to go. He knows it and the Reds know it and most Reds fans do too. There might be a team out there who has a good hitting coach who says " I can make him even better" and the Reds can get that #2 or #3 starter. I might even package him with Arroyo who after his contract is up is leaving Cincy on the first plane back to Boston. THAT might get you a #1. Package that with Bailey and tell Houston you want Berkman and Oswalt.

larks
10-24-2006, 08:34 PM
The problem with a trade with the Astros is they dont really have any ML-ready, top half rotation, Starting Pitching that they might be willing to part with. Lets face it Oswalt is worth far more than Adam Dunn. Hirsh is a top prospect but his home run rate, GO/FO ratio and BB/K rate freak me out.

If we do trade Dunn to the Astros my pipe dream return would be Chris Burke, Brad Lidge, and (possibly Chris Sampson if we included someone like Belisle)

I love Burke he can play great defense, decent pop, and speed. He would slide in nicely at second base. I doubt the Astros would part with him though.

Stros might be willing to part with Lidge to dump some salary. He had a bad year last year but it certainly wasnt an issue with his stuff. A change of teams might rejump his career.

Sampson's not really a high tier prospect but he is a groundball pitcher and looked good during his time up in the majors this year.

A Dunn deal not including these three players is not worth it in my opinion. Especially when you consider the depth of LA's farm system and their rumoured interest in Dunn.

westofyou
10-24-2006, 08:36 PM
His numbers have gone down for the last three years

Two years, 2003 was bad, 2004 better... we wouldn't want to tell fibs to get our point across now would we?

Slyder
10-24-2006, 08:39 PM
Backe is injury prone and not particularly good.

Lidge just came off an awful year.

If we trade Dunn for pitching, we need better certainty for success, than two huge question marks.

Isnt Backe Done with Tommy John Surgery for the year?

I will be pissed if we trade Dunn to Houston for less than Roy O. If we are giving up a perenial 40 hr, 90-120 RBI, .400 OBP potential guy thats only 26 to a division foe for less we are morons. And I dont say that because Im A Dunn Fan, I say that because what if Dunn "gets it" in Houston and he becomes the slugger EVERYONE in baseball knows he CAN BE? Do you really want to be known as Brian Sabean Jr? I dont. Dunn has too much potential not to demand 2 arms, a leg, and first born of ANY division foe.

corkedbat
10-24-2006, 08:43 PM
He knows it and the Reds know it and most Reds fans do too. .


Some may "think" that, but they "know" nothing. Throw in players and build up the deal if you must, but trading Dunn straight up for anything less than a premiere #1 starter is a horrible deal for this franchise.

If Krivs goes into this offseason with the mindset that he must deal Dunn for whatever return he can get then he's screwed, the Reds are screwed and we, the fans, are screwed.

gm
10-24-2006, 08:45 PM
I also have one concern with Oswalt and that has to do with height. I remember WOY showing a chart of how shorter pitchers lose effectiveness a lot faster than tall pitchers (Ex. Danny Graves). So I would be a little scared of trading Dunn for Oswalt too.

I'd be more concerned about Oswalt's good-for-a-DL-visit-per-year groin

At least Dunn consistently takes the field

dougdirt
10-24-2006, 08:45 PM
Some may "think" that, but they "know" nothing. Throw in players and build up the deal if you must, but trading Dunn straight up for anything less than a premiere #1 starter is a horrible deal for this franchise.

If Krivs goes into this offseason with the mindset that he must deal Dunn for whatever return he can get then he's screwed, the Reds are screwed and we, the fans, are screwed.

Adam Dunn is not worth a #1 pitcher. Not close, especially with the value pitchers are bringing lately. Is Adam Dunn a good player, yes. He is not great though. Great players are worth #1 pitchers, and Adam Dunn is not one of those players.

corkedbat
10-24-2006, 08:53 PM
Adam Dunn is not worth a #1 pitcher. Not close, especially with the value pitchers are bringing lately. Is Adam Dunn a good player, yes. He is not great though. Great players are worth #1 pitchers, and Adam Dunn is not one of those players.

I agree that AD most isn't worth a #1 pitcher. What I am saying is that is the only commodity I deal him straight-up for. I personally don't want to deal Dunn, but if you do, it must be for a franchise-changing return. There are few - if any Reds that have much value and certainly none nearing Dunn's (Harang would be next).

If you deal Dunn, you have to get more than a single 2 or 3 starter, you have to build a de

dougdirt
10-24-2006, 08:56 PM
I think Harang would be more valuable on the open market than Adam Dunn. Pitching is way overvalued at this point, and he just led the NL in wins and strikeouts and has yet to turn 30.

corkedbat
10-24-2006, 08:57 PM
Adam Dunn is not worth a #1 pitcher. Not close, especially with the value pitchers are bringing lately. Is Adam Dunn a good player, yes. He is not great though. Great players are worth #1 pitchers, and Adam Dunn is not one of those players.

I agree that AD isn't worth a #1 starter. What I am saying is that is the only commodity I deal him straight-up for. I personally don't want to deal Dunn, but if you do, it must be for a franchise-changing return. There are few - if any Reds that have much value and certainly none nearing Dunn's (Harang would be next).

If you deal Dunn, you have to get more than a single 2 or 3 starter, you have to build a deal that makes you stronger in three or four places and gives you the pay-flex that the movement of Dunn's contract would bring.

Again, I'm not saying that Dunn will bring that straight up, but he can be the centerpiece of that kind of deal and must be if the Reds are to compete anytime soon without him.

Slyder
10-24-2006, 08:57 PM
Adam Dunn is not worth a #1 pitcher. Not close, especially with the value pitchers are bringing lately. Is Adam Dunn a good player, yes. He is not great though. Great players are worth #1 pitchers, and Adam Dunn is not one of those players.


Do you want to be known as the GM who traded Paul O'Neill for Roberto who? We are LIKELY looking at that type of deal. Dunn isnt 30-31 yrs old set in his ways not going to get any better or worse. HES 26 YEARS OLD. You are going to trade him to a DIVISION RIVAL for a potential #2-3 and a closer WHO WAS A FREAKING GAS CAN FIGHTING A FOREST FIRE Last year? You can probably count on one hand the number of players who have more homers at the same point in their careers than Dunn.

His K's Annoy the snot out of me but I would rather take the ups and downs with him hitting for us rather than making the Reds pay 19 times a year for the next 10-15 years in Houston or ANY division rival unless we get a kings ransom from them.

dougdirt
10-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Where on earth did I ever say I would trade him to the Astros? Or for Brad Lidge? Why are you yelling? All I said is that Adam Dunn is not worth a #1 starter by himself, and its not even close.

cincyinco
10-24-2006, 10:19 PM
I would seek Burke, Lidge, and 2 more pitching spects.. toss in another guy or two with Dunn, but I would seek Hirsh and LHP - Troy Patton - the other gem pitching prospect in their system.

I wouldn't want to trade Dunn, because I don't think you can get the value we should be seeking in return in today's market - but I also agree with the sentiment that if you send him to Houston, you better be getting a ransom in return. I think a deal as proposed above would help solidify some of the current holes in this squad, while also providing a quality influx of talent to the minor league squad. Hirsh is near ready, and Patton should be ready for AA.

Slyder
10-24-2006, 10:26 PM
Where on earth did I ever say I would trade him to the Astros? Or for Brad Lidge? Why are you yelling? All I said is that Adam Dunn is not worth a #1 starter by himself, and its not even close.

It wasnt suppose to be directed just at you. It was more for everyone. I was growing tired seeing everyone say "we need Lidge" like :bang: . My main point was if Dunn stays in the division we MUST get a kings ransom. It would be a PR nightmare if he came to town 9-10 times a year and killed us and it seems like most are resigned to the fact that its the Astros or bust. I used the caps more so to try and draw out my points since most arent discussing and I really want to know the reasoning behind most of it because I dont see the reasons for trading a guy as young as Dunn with the type of potential he has to a division foe for less than a #1. If you want to trade him out of the league to like the Rangers? Thats different because you arent going to see him as often.

Onto the Schmidt point: He isn't young any more, he doesn't have a lot of years left. Try and work on him like Boston did to Schilling about wanting a championship. To counter act places like NY, Boston, LA try the instead of one of many he would be one of few in a city hungry for a winner. May work, may not work but I think this team is one good-great pitcher away from competing. We have seen what the NL has thrown together and call a champion, we are not that far away from a top tier pitching rotation.

KronoRed
10-24-2006, 10:35 PM
How does equating last year to now make sense? This season was extremely rocky for Dunn on the field and he lost his best friend. The way he was ripped by the media and fans has to be another factor.

I'm not saying he wants out, but nothing is really the same from when he extended his deal.

Dunn has been ripped by the fans in this town ever since he came up, last year was nothing new in that regard.

And if Kearns leaving was such an issue wouldn't he want to follow Austin to Washington and not Houston?

mth123
10-24-2006, 10:38 PM
A baseball team is made up of lots of players who fill lots of roles. But Middle of the line-up hitters and top 3 starters are the load bearing walls that keep the whole thing from collapsing. For all the immediate shortcomings, the Reds appear to have those things covered in 2008 or so. Dunn, EdE, Votto and Bruce wth Bailey, Harang and Arroyo.

Its true that the Reds could use a few other building bricks, but you don't take a wrecking ball to the load bearing walls to get some bricks to patch a hole on the patio. Some of these Dunn proposals are just that.

Slyder
10-24-2006, 10:45 PM
A baseball team is made up of lots of players who fill lots of roles. But Middle of the line-up hitters and top 3 starters are the load bearing walls that keep the whole thing from collapsing. For all the immediate shortcomings, the Reds appear to have those things covered in 2008 or so. Dunn, EdE, Votto and Bruce wth Bailey, Harang and Arroyo.

Its true that the Reds could use a few other building bricks, but you don't take a wrecking ball to the load bearing walls to get some bricks to patch a hole on the patio. Some of these Dunn proposals are just that.

Wow nice analogy.

Handofdeath
10-24-2006, 10:50 PM
Two years, 2003 was bad, 2004 better... we wouldn't want to tell fibs to get our point across now would we?

I actually meant over the last three seasons as in 2004-2006. My mistake. Yes, 2004 was better. It was the zenith of Adam Dunn's career. His next season his OPS dropped 30 points and his AVG 19 points. THEN, his OPS dropped 72 points from that and his AVG 13 points. And he missed that 40-100-100 club we hear so much about. Fans made excuses for him when 2005 was worse than 2004. " Hey, 40-100-100 again! That Dunn he's a future Hall of Famer!" Well then he was even worse this season and no 40-100-100 for him this time. What was the reason this year? I know, I know he's a future Hall of Famer. He'll figure it out. No he won't . He has had five years in the bigs and not only is he not improving he is regressing badly. No more excuses. The Reds cannot afford to wait and hope Dunn lives up to the potential that some think he has. What will next season bring? If he drops anymore offensively, then the Reds will be lucky to get ANY starter for him. Don't trade him for just anybody, but if you think that the Reds are going to get a top starter for Adam Dunn you are delusional. He is a just a little bit better version of Jeromy Burnitz and that don't bring #1 starters.

Reverend Doo-Rag
10-24-2006, 10:59 PM
While we're at it, here's a Red Sox spin on Dunn. Note the comparison to Mark Bellhorn.

http://www.yankeesredsox.com/gpage.html1.html

Cedric
10-24-2006, 11:00 PM
Dunn has been ripped by the fans in this town ever since he came up, last year was nothing new in that regard.

And if Kearns leaving was such an issue wouldn't he want to follow Austin to Washington and not Houston?

Not really. With Kearns and Griffey he had a level of comfort maybe, without that he might be more inclined to get away.

I'm not saying these things as facts. I'm just giving alternatives as to why he might be looking to get out.

terminator
10-24-2006, 11:50 PM
I'd be more concerned about Oswalt's good-for-a-DL-visit-per-year groin

At least Dunn consistently takes the field

This is a point not made enough. If we did trade Dunn, whoever we got back for him, whether pitcher or hitter, better be durable. Dunn is one of those guys that you can pencil in for 160 games per year.

jnwohio
10-25-2006, 12:08 AM
Add my vote top the group that says if Dunn goes to Houston it is only with RoyO coming back Cincy's way.

You can talk about what Dunn is or isn't worth when looking outside the divison but to trade an impact player like Dunn within the divison you have to get the other team's biggest impact player who can help your team the most. This is because in a big deal within the division it is just as much about taking some major away central piece from the other team as it is the overall value you get in return.

For the Reds, RoyO is what they have to from the 'Stros for Dunn to fit these crteria. Now once the Reds had RoyO, they might look around and decide their needs would be better served by flipping RoyO for a solid #2 or #3 and an established closer. If so then do that deal if it is outside the division (and hopefully even with an AL team). But you can't send Dunn down there withiut getting one of their major pieces back in return.

Perhaps it predates lots of folks but the deal between the Reds and the Astros which sent Lee May to Houston and brought Joe Morgan to Cincy is an example of what I am trying to say. The Reds were essentially dumping May to open 1B for Tony Perez. Jack Billingham and Cesar Geronimo would have probably been fair return for May; but Mr. Howsam said he had to have Joe Morgan. He had to add in Tommy Helms and Jiimmy Stewart but he got Joe and Ed Arbrister also back in return along with Geronimo and Billingham. Yet this whole deal started and happened because the Reds were looking to move May and the Astros wanted him badly enough to grow the deal into what it eventually became.

reds44
10-25-2006, 12:19 AM
If we trade Adam Dunn, we have to fill at least 2 starting offensive positions.

EE and Griffey would be all the power we have.

TeamBoone
10-25-2006, 01:14 AM
I doubt that Adam Dunn salivates over anything... he doesn't seem the type to get that hyped up about anything. If he was salivating to go to Houston, there's no way he would have signed the multi-year deal with the Reds.

Sure, maybe he'd like to play with them some day, just like Pettitte and what's his name... doesn't mean he's salivating to play with them ASAP.

919191
10-25-2006, 03:17 AM
This season was extremely rocky for Dunn on the field and he lost his best friend.


The Kearns part here is all I am addressing. Dunn is 26 years old. His best buddy had to move away due to his career. Isn't that what happens to people that age? He has got to be over that by now.

His page on Baseball-Reference.com lists his nickname as Big Donkey. Wasn't there a Big Donkey here with connections?

Highlifeman21
10-25-2006, 09:53 AM
I think some of you overvalue Adam Dunn. Adam Dunn is not worth Roy Oswalt. Adam Dunn also is not worth "A #2 AND a #3 starter (or a #2 and a closer), a good-hitting young 1B or OF and a solid MI".

Maybe I am crazy, but there is no way in my mind is Adam Dunn worth that.

Then maybe you're crazy.

If we can't get the pitching we need, then there's no fathomable logic to trade Adam Dunn. He's not a salary dump issue like Casey last year, or LaRue now. He's not hurting our offense production, much to the dismay of some posters.

I'm still of the opinion that Adam Dunn's highest value is to remain a Cincinnati Red. Maybe I'm the crazy one.

15fan
10-25-2006, 10:10 AM
The guy to trade to Houston was Austin Kearns.

Handofdeath
10-25-2006, 02:54 PM
Add my vote top the group that says if Dunn goes to Houston it is only with RoyO coming back Cincy's way.

You can talk about what Dunn is or isn't worth when looking outside the divison but to trade an impact player like Dunn within the divison you have to get the other team's biggest impact player who can help your team the most. This is because in a big deal within the division it is just as much about taking some major away central piece from the other team as it is the overall value you get in return.

For the Reds, RoyO is what they have to from the 'Stros for Dunn to fit these crteria. Now once the Reds had RoyO, they might look around and decide their needs would be better served by flipping RoyO for a solid #2 or #3 and an established closer. If so then do that deal if it is outside the division (and hopefully even with an AL team). But you can't send Dunn down there withiut getting one of their major pieces back in return.

Perhaps it predates lots of folks but the deal between the Reds and the Astros which sent Lee May to Houston and brought Joe Morgan to Cincy is an example of what I am trying to say. The Reds were essentially dumping May to open 1B for Tony Perez. Jack Billingham and Cesar Geronimo would have probably been fair return for May; but Mr. Howsam said he had to have Joe Morgan. He had to add in Tommy Helms and Jiimmy Stewart but he got Joe and Ed Arbrister also back in return along with Geronimo and Billingham. Yet this whole deal started and happened because the Reds were looking to move May and the Astros wanted him badly enough to grow the deal into what it eventually became.

Impact player? He hits those homers, I'll freely admit that. He's got a ton of power. 7th in the NL this season in homers. But for all of those homers he finished 27th in SLG. He also finished 24th in RBI's and OBP. For you sabermaticians he finished 26th in the league in OPS. For those of you more into the batting average, he hit .234. Defensively, he reeks at two positions. Ryan Howard is an impact player. Pujols is an impact player. Adam Dunn is not an impact player.

PuffyPig
10-25-2006, 03:32 PM
Agreed. Oswalt is the only thing the Astros have in comparative value to Dunn. They are in a similar stage in their careers and are both great at what they do.

The fact that Houston just gave Oswalt a huge contract shows that they probably wont be trading him any time soon. I also have one concern with Oswalt and that has to do with height. I remember WOY showing a chart of how shorter pitchers lose effectiveness a lot faster than tall pitchers (Ex. Danny Graves). So I would be a little scared of trading Dunn for Oswalt too.

Oswalt was way, way more trade value than Dunn.

If you are concerned about Oswalt's heigth, make the trade and then flip Oswalt for pretty much whatever you want.

Patrick Bateman
10-25-2006, 03:44 PM
Oswalt was way, way more trade value than Dunn.

If you are concerned about Oswalt's heigth, make the trade and then flip Oswalt for pretty much whatever you want.

Of course I would do the trade, all I'm saying is that even Oswalt has question marks, and he has been as steady as a pitcher as there has been for the last few years.

Dunn has also been healthy year in and year out, while being productive year in and year out.

All I'm saying, is that over the next 5 years or so, I think Dunn may be the better bet for success. Oswalt has higher trade value, and that's why I would do the trade, but it's not as much as a slam dunk as it seems.

danforsman
10-25-2006, 07:03 PM
Patton, Nieve and Lidge and you've got a deal.

TC81190
10-25-2006, 07:57 PM
I've said it before and I know a lot of people think I'm crazy, but if I trade Dunn to the Astros, I take nothing less than Roy Oswalt, straight up.

Dunn is a top-tier hitter, and Oswalt is a top-tier pitcher. They're both pretty hard to come by in baseball, and this trade would play into rarities that both these teams need.

That said, I'm still not sure I'd do it; I'm not sold on trading Dunn at all, in any way. This offense would go from cracked to shattered without him.


Dunn hitting wise does not equal Oswalt pitching wise. Not even in the same ballpark.

Also, I'm not sure how a guy with so few hits and such an enormous 2nd half meltdown is so essential to a team.

dougdirt
10-25-2006, 11:56 PM
nevermind, its not worth the trouble it would cause.