PDA

View Full Version : World Series Game 3 Thread



Reds Fanatic
10-24-2006, 07:54 PM
Pitching Matchup: Robertson vs. Carpenter

Reds Fanatic
10-24-2006, 08:53 PM
Carpenter gets through the 2nd on only 4 pitches and has only thrown 15 in 2 innings.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 08:54 PM
Carpenter gets through the 2nd on only 4 pitches and has only thrown 15 in 2 innings.

Detroit...offense...bad.

LoganBuck
10-24-2006, 09:09 PM
Has the 24 Trailer aired yet?

Reds Fanatic
10-24-2006, 09:15 PM
Has the 24 Trailer aired yet?
I haven't seen it but I didn't see the pregame so I am not sure if it was on then.

Heath
10-24-2006, 09:33 PM
Tigers looking shaky tonight.

Good subjectivity Fox. Place an ex-Cardinal and the Cardinal TV voice in the booth.

Reds Fanatic
10-24-2006, 09:39 PM
Edmonds doubles in 2 runs. 2-0 Cards.

Heath
10-24-2006, 09:40 PM
Dink and Dunk.

2006 Cardinal Baseball.

Cyclone792
10-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Hmmm ...


After 22 innings ...

Pitches Seen PA P/PA BB PA/BB Runs
Cardinals 333 91 3.66 8 11.38 10
Tigers 276 83 3.33 3 27.67 5

It would behoove the Tigers for their offense to figure out what plate discipline is, and figure it out quick.

M2
10-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Cardinals hitters will take the pitch where it's pitched. Tigers hitters will hack away at pitches out of the strikezone.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 09:51 PM
The Cards are destroying the Tigers without the Cards' ace having thrown one pitch.

Heath
10-24-2006, 09:53 PM
Chris Carpenter's getting the corners tonight. It's hard to go up not swinging.

Tigers need a deep breath and a gentle reminder of patience.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 09:55 PM
I think it's fair to say that decent pitching beats awful hitting.

M2
10-24-2006, 09:56 PM
The Cards are destroying the Tigers without the Cards' ace having thrown one pitch.

Well, I'd submit their ace is on the mound right now, but it looks like LaRussa and Duncan have spotted Detroit's glaring flaw. If you let a team expand the strikezone like this against you, then everyone's going to look like an ace.

Heath
10-24-2006, 09:59 PM
Well, I'd submit their ace is on the mound right now, but it looks like LaRussa and Duncan have spotted Detroit's glaring flaw. If you let a team expand the strikezone like this against you, then everyone's going to look like an ace.

So, is it fair to say that the Tigers are playing the Cardinals AND the Home Plate umpire?

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:00 PM
Well, I'd submit their ace is on the mound right now, but it looks like LaRussa and Duncan have spotted Detroit's glaring flaw. If you let a team expand the strikezone like this against you, then everyone's going to look like an ace.

Carpenter is probably their ace over the long haul, but I'm not sure I've seen a pitcher do as much with so little as Suppan did in the NLCS since Hershisher's performance against Maddux in Game 5 of the 1995 WS. It was unflappable will that carried him twice over an offense three times as potent as this Detroit club's.

M2
10-24-2006, 10:06 PM
So, is it fair to say that the Tigers are playing the Cardinals AND the Home Plate umpire?

Robertson's gotten the same strikezone from what I can tell. IMO, the difference is Tigers hitters chase a lot of pitches Cardinals hitters won't offer at.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:08 PM
Nate Robertson, on the other hand, gets very little out of quite a lot in the stuff department.

Heath
10-24-2006, 10:13 PM
Curtis Granderson needs a bunt single to spark himself -

As bad as the Tigers have looked tonight - its still only 2-0.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:14 PM
Curtis Granderson needs a bunt single to spark himself -

As bad as the Tigers have looked tonight - its still only 2-0.

Carpenter: 60 pitches through 6 innings. I smell CGSO.

M2
10-24-2006, 10:16 PM
As bad as the Tigers have looked tonight - its still only 2-0.

True enough. It's the Rumble in the Jungle syndrome. Beat the hell out of your opponent, but fail to put that opponents away and you could be in for trouble later.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:17 PM
My guess is that St. Louis will take apart Detroit's "monster" bullpen.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:18 PM
True enough. It's the Rumble in the Jungle syndrome. Beat the hell out of your opponent, but fail to put that opponents away and you could be in for trouble later.

Detroit's had exactly one good swing on Carpenter all night long.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:25 PM
Zumaya looks a little like the Heat Miser.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:34 PM
My guess is that the Reds' offense will begin to look a lot like the Tigers' offense under Wayne.

But without the good pitching.

M2
10-24-2006, 10:37 PM
LaRussa's got to be doing cartwheels that Leyland had to go to Zumaya to face the bottom of his lineup while two runs down in the 6th.

Cyclone792
10-24-2006, 10:38 PM
My guess is that the Reds' offense will begin to look a lot like the Tigers' offense under Wayne.

But without the good pitching.

Funny you mention that, FCB, because I was just thinking about that myself. That's my massive fear with what's going to happen to our offense very soon.

Detroit batters walked only 430 times this season, second worst in the American League, and they've done nothing but hack away at garbage out of the strike zone throughout the entire World Series thus far. This is precisely the type of offense I want the Reds to absolutely avoid, but I'm terrified that it's the type of offense that Wayne Krivsky wants to build.

Cyclone792
10-24-2006, 10:43 PM
Somebody tell me I wasn't just seeing and hearing things ...

I think that was George Grande talking over a Bank of American commercial about higher standards and using, what else, a Cardinals player in Ozzie Smith as an example of those higher standards.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:44 PM
I predict Zumaya surrenders a multiple run-scoring HR this inning.

blumj
10-24-2006, 10:46 PM
Zumaya looks a little like the Heat Miser.

I miss the Fox over-inflated radar readings from earlier in the playoffs. Zumaya was hitting 103 regularly on the fake gun, Buck and McCarver were forced to pretend they bought it, and that was a lot more fun than reality.

M2
10-24-2006, 10:48 PM
St. Louis and Detroit have produced some of the finest music acts of the past five decades. Who in the hell is booking the singers for this series?

I want Nelly and Iggy Pop dammit.

Reds Fanatic
10-24-2006, 10:49 PM
Zumaya throws an easy DP ball away and the Cards go up 4-0.

M2
10-24-2006, 10:50 PM
I predict Zumaya surrenders a multiple run-scoring HR this inning.

They've certainly got him set up for a full-fleged Lidging.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 10:52 PM
Just as I said: the Cards' version of 1975. They're loose as a goose out there. All but certain of victory.

LoganBuck
10-24-2006, 11:00 PM
The 24 Trailer!

Great Jack is Back!

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 11:01 PM
The 24 Trailer!

Great Jack is Back!

I like the ZZ Top beard. It lends gravitas.

M2
10-24-2006, 11:05 PM
Just as I said: the Cards' version of 1975. They're loose as a goose out there. All but certain of victory.

I'm not sure if they're all that loose (and I'd argue that the '75 Reds played intermittently tight during the postseason), but I think there is a parallel in that the Cardinals for seven years have been having one of the better runs of any team that hasn't put a World Series title on the mantel. The Reds were six seasons into their run in 1975 and I'm guessing that, like those Reds, these Cardinals are more focused than ever about getting the job done.

Falls City Beer
10-24-2006, 11:08 PM
I'm not sure if they're all that loose (and I'd argue that the '75 Reds played fairly tight), but I think there is a parallel in that the Cardinals for seven years have been having one of the better runs of any team that hasn't put a World Series title on the mantel. The Reds were six seasons into their run in 1975 and I'm guessing that, like those Reds, these Cardinals are more focused than ever about getting the job done.

They look pretty loose to me. They aren't throwing balls away, making bad pitches, swinging early in the count, pacing behind the mound. They've played almost three picture perfect games that by simple bad luck have only given them a 2-1 series lead instead of a decisive 3-0.

LoganBuck
10-24-2006, 11:09 PM
I like the ZZ Top beard. It lends gravitas.

Either that or it makes him look a little like Obi-wan.

M2
10-24-2006, 11:09 PM
I love watching Rolen's feet. He can go from pounce mode to set for a throw like no one I've ever seen.

blumj
10-24-2006, 11:26 PM
Nice way to ease the rookie into his first post season action. Don't worry, kid, it's just Pujols with the bases loaded in the World Series.

Cyclone792
10-24-2006, 11:48 PM
Want to win World Series games? Show patience, take pitches, work the count, take walks, get a good pitch to hit, and win the strike zone. This series so far has been a perfect case study for all the above ...


After Game Three ...

Pitches Seen PA P/PA BB PA/BB Balls Balls/PA Runs
Cardinals 426 113 3.77 13 8.69 172 1.52 13
Tigers 333 99 3.36 3 33.00 104 1.05 5

Look at Balls/PA, which is balls out of the strike zone taken per plate appearance. The Cardinals offense is just absolutely dominating the Tigers offense in every fashion. They're showing patience, they're taking pitches, they're working the count, they're taking walks, they're getting better pitches to hit, and they are winning the strike zone.

The strike zone is the most important piece in the game. Beat your opponent in ability to control the strike zone, and chances are good you'll win a lot of baseball games.

westofyou
10-24-2006, 11:52 PM
I like the ZZ Top beard. It lends gravitas.

I saw them in the rain at a winery last year... my how times have changed.

When the Tigers hitting is off their approach reminds me of Ralph Molina's drumming skills..

reds44
10-24-2006, 11:52 PM
kill me.

GAC
10-25-2006, 05:23 AM
The guy has a 1.81 ERA at home. I knew that was going to be trouble the moment he took the mound.

From ESPN......

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2637814

How brilliant was Carpenter?

So brilliant, he made it through eight innings on just 82 pitches. So brilliant, he faced 26 hitters and ran a three-ball count on, well, none of them. Heck, he only made it past ball one to nine of them.

Average number of pitches he threw per Tigers plate appearance: An unbelievable 3.15. That's how brilliant.

It didn't seem to matter if the Tigers went up there hacking or went up there trying to show a little patience for a change. Carpenter threw first-pitch strikes to 15 hitters -- and nine of them were looking.

And once he got ahead, those Tigers hitters could have been standing there with a bat, a jai alai cesta or a No. 2 pencil. Same difference. They were going down. The only mystery was how.

Theoretically, this was the same pitcher who had a 5.72 ERA in his two NLCS starts against the Mets. The same pitcher who needed 92 pitches to get through five innings in Game 2 of that series. The same pitcher who walked three Padres in one inning back in the Division Series.

GAC
10-25-2006, 07:38 AM
And I have to add further. That was one excellent piece of hitting by Pujols in the 4th inning.... a pitch 4 inches out of the strikezone and he went with the ball and drove it right down the RF line. Simply amazing.

NJReds
10-25-2006, 09:18 AM
Hmmm ...


After 22 innings ...

Pitches Seen PA P/PA BB PA/BB Runs
Cardinals 333 91 3.66 8 11.38 10
Tigers 276 83 3.33 3 27.67 5

It would behoove the Tigers for their offense to figure out what plate discipline is, and figure it out quick.

Although their offense was sufficient to get to the World Series. And when they did take the first pitch, most of the time it was strike one. Carpenter was dealing. I'm not saying plate discipline is a bad thing, but good pitching will beat good hitting, even if the hitters are patient. Look what the Tigers pitchers did to the Yankees patient hitters.

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 09:49 AM
Although their offense was sufficient to get to the World Series. And when they did take the first pitch, most of the time it was strike one. Carpenter was dealing. I'm not saying plate discipline is a bad thing, but good pitching will beat good hitting, even if the hitters are patient. Look what the Tigers pitchers did to the Yankees patient hitters.

It was sufficient to get to the World Series because the Tigers dominated in run prevention. They led the American League in ERA, ERA+, runs allowed per game, and defensive efficiency, while also being second in the American League in HR/9 allowed.

Offensively, however, they rely heavily on batting average; and this is the problem with teams that rely heavily on batting average. It's a great offense when the hits fall in, but if the hits aren't there for a string of nights, there's just no baserunners whatsoever. Here's the offensive snapshot of the first three games; notice where the key difference is:


Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG

Cardinals 3 97 13 19 6 0 2 9 31 13 20 0 0 .304 .320 .196
Tigers 3 92 5 17 2 1 2 5 27 3 19 0 0 .227 .293 .185

Neither team is hitting for any type of remotely acceptable batting average, but the Cardinals are getting many more baserunners due to the walks. Heck, when it comes to actually stringing hits together, the Cardinals have been nearly as bad offensively as the Tigers. But they're still getting a fair number of baserunners. An 11 point edge in batting average for St. Louis has turned into a 77 point on-base edge due to their walks.

Another way to look at it is like this: The Cardinals offense is slumping in the mold that Adam Dunn slumps (low batting average, but lots of walks). The Tigers offense is slumping in the mold that Brandon Phillips slumps (low batting average and no walks).

Tiger pitching is doing its job, though their defense has let them down quite a bit. Offensively, they've just been totally inept; a .227 on-base percentage just won't cut it.

Roy Tucker
10-25-2006, 10:37 AM
What Carpenter did to the Tigers last night was what he did to the Reds around mid-August this season. He is a good (not great) pitcher, but when he has his mojo going (hitting the black with stuff), he can be very tough.

What I like about him is that he subscribes to the Tom Browning school of keep the game rolling along. Get the ball, get the sign, wind, and pitch.

M2
10-25-2006, 10:49 AM
What Carpenter did to the Tigers last night was what he did to the Reds around mid-August this season. He is a good (not great) pitcher, but when he has his mojo going (hitting the black with stuff), he can be very tough.

What I like about him is that he subscribes to the Tom Browning school of keep the game rolling along. Get the ball, get the sign, wind, and pitch.

I like that about him too. I've always thought that approach helped a pitcher stay on a roll when he gets on one. I also tend to think it helps a pitcher avoid collapses, not enough time to overthink what you're doing. Though obviously that approach doesn't work for everyone. El Duque, on nights when he's got nothing in his arm, works at a snail's pace and gets results.

On a related note, the Tigers had better win the next three games or they'll have to go through Carpenter to win the Series. From what I saw last night, if Carpenter's on his game the Tiggers don't stand a chance.

vaticanplum
10-25-2006, 11:01 AM
On a related note, the Tigers had better win the next three games or they'll have to go through Carpenter to win the Series. From what I saw last night, if Carpenter's on his game the Tiggers don't stand a chance.

I thought about that last night too. I don't think there's a person on the planet who expected the Tigers to handle Carpenter last night (I was actually expecting more of a blowout than it was), but the first loss makes it pretty crucial that they don't face him again. Their best hope may be that something really is wrong with his thumb.

The Tigers' offense needs to pull it together...I know a lot of people have been citing their regular-season offensive stats, but I thought they looked brilliant and patient against Oakland (and to a lesser but valid extent against the Yankees). They're capable of better than they're doing now and they really need it to help out their pitching. I still expect them to pull it out though as the bullpen settles in.

Reds Fanatic
10-25-2006, 11:11 AM
Cardinals may be able to bring back Carpenter before game 7. There is a 90% chance of rain in St. Louis tonight and a chance for more rain tomorrow night. With one or maybe 2 rainouts Carpenter could be back earlier.

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 11:52 AM
The Tigers' offense needs to pull it together...I know a lot of people have been citing their regular-season offensive stats, but I thought they looked brilliant and patient against Oakland (and to a lesser but valid extent against the Yankees). They're capable of better than they're doing now and they really need it to help out their pitching. I still expect them to pull it out though as the bullpen settles in.

Yup, they were exceptionally patient against the A's:

Tigers World Series
BA: .185
OBP: .227
IsoD: .042
PA/BB: 27.67

Tigers LCS
BA: .285
OBP: .367
IsoD: .082
PA/BB: 8.37

Tigers LDS
BA: .309
OBP: .338
IsoD: .029
PA/BB: 21.29

Tigers Regular Season
BA: .274
OBP: .329
IsoD: .055
PA/BB: 14.41

The Tigers piled up hits against the Yankees, enough hits that they posted a .309 batting average and that meant they were going to light up the scoreboard a bit regardless. In the ALCS, their hit rate was in line with their regular season hit rate, but patience took over and the Tigers piled up the walks to help accumulate baserunners.

Cardinal pitching has done an outstanding job, and I have to believe the Cardinals did their homework in advance scouting. As a collective unit, the Tigers are a hacking, batting average relying team relative to other offenses. If scouted correctly, that can be exploited and that's what it appears Cardinal pitching is doing successfully.

If Detroit's offense can make some adjustments and return to what they did in the ALCS, they can take this series since I believe their pitching will continue to play well and their defense can rebound from their earlier mistakes. I'd just hate to see the Tigers continue to rely on hacking at the plate in order to try to collect baserunners and generate an offense. A strategy of hacking just makes it a foregone conclusion that a guy like Carpenter will just roll right over them.

Matt700wlw
10-25-2006, 04:37 PM
The thought of the St. Louis Cardinals being World Champions does not sit well with me...

For the love of God, Detroit.....GET IT TOGETHER!!!! :D