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redsmetz
10-25-2006, 02:29 PM
Anyone else catch the commercial during the World Series (once in Spanish, again in English) which featured various prominent Latin Americans. The first was Dolf Luque, the great Reds pitcher (and they even mentioned him playing for the Reds!). Very interesting.

westofyou
10-25-2006, 02:35 PM
Yes Dolph, I saw that and I couldn't help rembering this tidbit.


Luque was holding out and was in Cuba, due to his limited command of the english language he had a man in Cuba reply to a letter the Reds sent him.

The guy went on to say Dolph was peeved, and that the Reds could essentially bite it. He then wrote, "These of course are mere empty words by a man with no education and that outside of his ability to pitch is the most perfect jackass."

Roy Tucker
10-25-2006, 02:40 PM
I thought it was interesting they had that commercial and another Hispanic one (that slips my memory). The continual shifting population base of the US...

They also pronunced Chevy with a "ch" and not the Anglo "sh" and "Silverado" with a real flair.

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 02:58 PM
Dolf Luque in 1923 put together the greatest single season Reds pitching performance in history, IMO.

Luque pitched 322.0 innings that season with a 1.93 ERA, and with the adjusted league ERA at 3.87, Luque's ERA+ was an astonishing 201, the highest single season in Reds history by a large margin (Billy Rhines is second at 183 in 1890).

Perhaps the most amazing part of Luque's 1923 season is his home run rate. The National League that season saw 538 home runs in 11,073 innings, good for a HR/9 rate of 0.44. While home runs were nowhere near as common in the 1920s as they are today, they were on the upswing as the Ruthian power era was beginning to take off.

Dolf Luque's HR/9 rate in 1923? Try 0.05. In 322.0 innings that season, Luque allowed only two home runs.

Simply amazing.

RANDY IN INDY
10-25-2006, 03:22 PM
The Power of Tradition.

Yachtzee
10-25-2006, 04:08 PM
The Power of Tradition.

Like a Rock.

Redsland
10-25-2006, 04:25 PM
Like a Rock.
I always hated that slogan, too.

"If it's like a rock, why should I give you $20,000 for it?"

I got into a nice long discussion with a friend at Campbell-Ewald about that one and "Heartbeat of America" once. I said the first tag line was an insult to the sophistication of the cars and the other was an insult to the sophistication of the drivers.

That's when I learned he was responsible for writing one of them. :ughmamoru

Yachtzee
10-25-2006, 04:36 PM
I always hated that slogan, too.

"If it's like a rock, why should I give you $20,000 for it?"

I got into a nice long discussion with a friend at Campbell-Ewald about that one and "Heartbeat of America" once. I said the first tag line was an insult to the sophistication of the cars and the other was an insult to the sophistication of the drivers.

That's when I learned he was responsible for writing one of them. :ughmamoru

When ever the Chevy Truck commercial came on, my brother and I used to sing along, but we would then replace "rock" with just about every word in the book that rhymed with "rock." Some of them include (without getting dirty):

Like a Sock
Like a Jock
Like a Dock
Like Mr. Spock
Like a Mock...turtle neck
Like a Flock...of Seagulls
etc.

Chip R
10-25-2006, 04:55 PM
Dolf Luque in 1923 put together the greatest single season Reds pitching performance in history, IMO.

Luque pitched 322.0 innings that season with a 1.93 ERA, and with the adjusted league ERA at 3.87, Luque's ERA+ was an astonishing 201, the highest single season in Reds history by a large margin (Billy Rhines is second at 183 in 1890).

Perhaps the most amazing part of Luque's 1923 season is his home run rate. The National League that season saw 538 home runs in 11,073 innings, good for a HR/9 rate of 0.44. While home runs were nowhere near as common in the 1920s as they are today, they were on the upswing as the Ruthian power era was beginning to take off.

Dolf Luque's HR/9 rate in 1923? Try 0.05. In 322.0 innings that season, Luque allowed only two home runs.

Simply amazing.


Yeah, but Redsland Field was HUGE.

westofyou
10-25-2006, 05:18 PM
Yeah, but Redsland Field was HUGE.

In 1923 there were a total of 10 Home Runs hit at Redland, 4 by the opposition.

In 1924 there were only 6 (3 by home and 3 by visitors)

On the road in 1923 it was 24 for the Reds and 39 for the Home team.

In 1921 the Reds gave up ONE HR at home the entire season.

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 05:29 PM
I checked Luque's splits, or what few splits are available.

He started 37 total games in 1923, 21 at home and 16 on the road. There were stretches where he started several games consecutively at home, then other stretches where he started several games consecutively on the road.

There are splits available for Luque in 1921 and 1922, and though they're likely incomplete, what's available is interesting. He gave up 18 doubles and six triples at home during those two seasons in 313 innings, but on the road only gave up six doubles and two triples in 252 innings.

The park overall slightly favored pitchers, but woy's HR splits combined with Luque's 2B/3B splits are fascinating. It seems that while Redland gave up few home runs, it may have made up for those lack of homers with more doubles and triples. Does that seem accurate, woy?

westofyou
10-25-2006, 05:38 PM
I'm pretty sure they moved HP up after the 1926 season, not that it helped, but prior to that a lot of the HR correction did occur in the triples category. The same can be said for Forbes Field. Since 1900 only 21 teams have had 100 triple seasons, 14 of those are Pirates teams and 5 are Reds squads.


NATIONAL LEAGUE
CAREER
1920-1926
HOMERUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

DOUBLES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR
1 Cardinals 136 1873 1737 104
2 Phillies 41 1782 1741 199
3 Cubs -44 1700 1744 -29
4 Giants -48 1670 1718 125
5 Pirates -97 1637 1734 -127
6 Dodgers -151 1586 1737 -67
7 Reds -181 1552 1733 -204
8 Braves -333 1415 1748 -221

TRIPLES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR
1 Pirates 163 748 585 -127
2 Reds 102 685 583 -204
3 Cardinals 12 597 585 104
4 Giants -44 535 579 125
5 Dodgers -48 537 585 -67
6 Braves -88 501 589 -221
7 Cubs -163 424 587 -29
8 Phillies -224 362 586 199


Best Seasons

TRIPLES YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE HR
1 Reds 1926 41 120 79 -25
2 Pirates 1924 39 122 83 -22
3 Pirates 1923 34 111 77 -22
T4 Reds 1924 28 111 83 -30
T4 Pirates 1926 28 106 78 -15
6 Pirates 1925 25 105 80 -5
7 Pirates 1922 21 110 89 -18
8 Reds 1923 16 95 79 -27
9 Dodgers 1920 13 99 86 -7
10 Pirates 1921 12 104 92 -26



NATIONAL LEAGUE
SEASON
MODERN (1900-)
HOMERUNS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria

TRIPLES YEAR 3B HR
1 Pirates 1912 129 0
2 Pirates 1924 122 -22
3 Reds 1926 120 -25
4 Pirates 1930 119 -32
5 Pirates 1929 116 -43
T6 Reds 1924 111 -30
T6 Pirates 1923 111 -22
T8 Pirates 1922 110 -18
T8 Pirates 1903 110 13
10 Pirates 1926 106 -15
T11 Reds 1911 105 -23
T11 Pirates 1925 105 -5
T11 Pirates 1911 105 6
14 Pirates 1921 104 -26
15 Giants 1911 103 0
16 Pirates 1904 102 -8
T17 Cubs 1911 101 11
T17 Reds 1905 101 2
T19 Braves 1921 100 -1
T19 Pirates 1928 100 -29
T19 Pirates 1900 100 -8
T19 Reds 1917 100 -1

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 05:53 PM
That definitely sounds reasonable then with a good chunk of the HR correction coming from triples.

All this is semi-related to a slightly different topic I've always been very curious about, and that is wondering how many home runs during the first three decades of the 20th century were actually inside-the-park home runs rather than your classic fence-clearing blasts.

westofyou
10-25-2006, 05:58 PM
That definitely sounds reasonable then with a good chunk of the HR correction coming from triples.

All this is semi-related to a slightly different topic I've always been very curious about, and that is wondering how many home runs during the first three decades of the 20th century were actually inside-the-park home runs rather than your classic fence-clearing blasts.
The first over the fence HR at Redland was in 1921, the first at Braves was I think in 1925. At many parks prior to the cork centered ball in 1911 the task was considered impossible.

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 06:08 PM
The first over the fence HR at Redland was in 1921, the first at Braves was I think in 1925. At many parks prior to the cork centered ball in 1911 the task was considered impossible.

Heh, funny how I mentioned that before even a quick search, which I just did. Baseball Almanac has apparently put together various inside-the-park home run lists. According to them, Sam Crawford is the MLB all-time leader in inside-the-park home runs with 51 (13 in the NL and 38 in the AL), Tommy Leach is the NL all-time leader with 49, and Ty Cobb is the AL all-time leader with 46.

Leach only hit 63 career home runs period, which means he apparently cleared the fence only 14 times. Cobb's 117 total home runs means he cleared the fence 71 times. Since Crawford is also the all-time triples leader, I'm not surprised to see him up there with his inside-the-park home run total. His 97 total home runs means that he cleared the fence 46 times.

They've got 23 players listed with 20 or more inside-the-park home runs, most of them Hall of Famers, and the others all pretty good hitters. They've got Edd Roush listed with 30 inside-the-park homers, which means Roush cleared the fence 38 times in his career.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_isphr.shtml

Maybe if I get a chance I'll go through all 23 of those players listed and compare their inside-the-park home run total to their actual home run total.

Matt700wlw
10-25-2006, 06:30 PM
I remember Dolf... ;)

harangatang
10-25-2006, 08:38 PM
What's the best ERA+ a Red's pitcher has had in the modern era? Considering that Harang's ERA+ in 2006 was 128 and Arroyo's ERA+ was 146 which are both really good, but I doubt that 146 is the best.

Cyclone792
10-25-2006, 09:17 PM
What's the best ERA+ a Red's pitcher has had in the modern era? Considering that Harang's ERA+ in 2006 was 128 and Arroyo's ERA+ was 146 which are both really good, but I doubt that 146 is the best.

It depends on what your definition of modern era is. Mine has always been 1903-present, mainly because that's the first season both the American League and National League had instituted the foul-strike rule.

Anyhow, under what I define as the modern era, Dolf Luque has the highest Reds single season ERA+ at 201 with his spectacular 1923 season. Fred Toney is second at 181 in 1915, though he started 23 games and relieved in 13 games so he wasn't a regular full-time starter.

The next modern era guys in single season ERA+ in Reds history ...

Tom Seaver: 169 in 1977 (165.1 innings in Cincy as he was traded midseason to the Reds)
Bucky Walters: 168 in 1939 (Reds won the NL Pennant that season)
Ewell Blackwell: 166 in 1947 (that's the season he had his 16-game winning streak)
Jose Rijo: 163 in 1993

Eppa Rixey's highest ERA+ in a Reds uniform as a full-time starter was 142 in 1925. Paul Derringer's highest was 131 in 1939. Jim Maloney put up a 148 in 1965, Johnny Vander Meer had a 135 in 1942, and Mario Soto put up a 142 in 1983. Dutch Reuther didn't have a long career with the Reds, but in 1919 he paced the staff with a 152 ERA+ (Slim Sallee was 134 that same season).

harangatang
10-25-2006, 09:34 PM
It depends on what your definition of modern era is. Mine has always been 1903-present, mainly because that's the first season both the American League and National League had instituted the foul-strike rule.

Anyhow, under what I define as the modern era, Dolf Luque has the highest Reds single season ERA+ at 201 with his spectacular 1923 season. Fred Toney is second at 181 in 1915, though he started 23 games and relieved in 13 games so he wasn't a regular full-time starter.

The next modern era guys in single season ERA+ in Reds history ...

Tom Seaver: 169 in 1977 (165.1 innings in Cincy as he was traded midseason to the Reds)
Bucky Walters: 168 in 1939 (Reds won the NL Pennant that season)
Ewell Blackwell: 166 in 1947 (that's the season he had his 16-game winning streak)
Jose Rijo: 163 in 1993

Eppa Rixey's highest ERA+ in a Reds uniform as a full-time starter was 142 in 1925. Paul Derringer's highest was 131 in 1939. Jim Maloney put up a 148 in 1965, Johnny Vander Meer had a 135 in 1942, and Mario Soto put up a 142 in 1983. Dutch Reuther didn't have a long career with the Reds, but in 1919 he paced the staff with a 152 ERA+ (Slim Sallee was 134 that same season).Interesting, thanks.

Falls City Beer
10-25-2006, 10:08 PM
http://www.lowculture.com/archives/images/dorfongolf.jpg