PDA

View Full Version : Zumaya-gate



cincy jacket
10-26-2006, 12:01 PM
Came across this on espn.com it's part of the insider thing and I don't know the rules about copy and pasting that onto here so I won't ,but it's pretty interesting. I guess the Cardinals had their scoreboard operators make Zumaya's pitch speed about 5-7 mph lower than what it really was when they showed it on the scoreboard. Sounds like the ol' baseball genius at his finest again.

flyer85
10-26-2006, 01:32 PM
if true, that is really funny. It should break pitchers of wanting to look at their pitch speed displayed on the scoreboard.

SultanOfSwing
10-26-2006, 01:42 PM
I had the same feeling when listening to the game. Some of his pitches were only being clocked a 94 MPH. That is a Zumaya changeup!

Miller even had the same idea and said the TV radar had much faster speed. It seems pretty underhanded to me. Miller said Zumaya was overthrowing to get to 100 MPH and it cost him control.

traderumor
10-26-2006, 02:24 PM
I've been thinking that the FOX guns were on steroids throughout the postseason. But I'm sure there is no correlation between arm injuries and watching radar guns. They need to get rid of those things in the ballparks and on the tv screens.

NJReds
10-26-2006, 03:33 PM
They need to get rid of those things in the ballparks and on the tv screens.

Especially if they're going to mess with the accuracy of the readings.

dabvu2498
10-26-2006, 03:36 PM
Gammons was just on with Dan Patrick and says it happens more often than you'd think.

He specifically said that Boston would do it to Jose Contreras to try to get in his head.

Always Red
10-26-2006, 03:49 PM
if true, that is really funny. It should break pitchers of wanting to look at their pitch speed displayed on the scoreboard.

That is funny; if they really wanted to mess with their heads, they should increase the mph of the off speed stuff, and decrease the mph of the fastball, to show not much difference in changing speeds, which of course, is how most MLB hitters are gotten out in the first place.

That'd be one confused pitcher out there. The smart ones never turn around and look at the board.

Matt700wlw
10-26-2006, 04:18 PM
Home field advantage...

edabbs44
10-26-2006, 04:38 PM
They used to turn off the guns in Shea when Benitez was pitching for the Mets. He would get whiplash after every pitch.

Johnny Footstool
10-26-2006, 05:18 PM
Just randomly generate a two-digit number after each pitch.

flyer85
10-26-2006, 05:22 PM
When Cincy pitchers come to town they probably add 4-5 mph hoping the Reds pitchers will challenge Albert Pujols among others.

guttle11
10-26-2006, 05:36 PM
People are trying WAY too hard to create storylines in this World Series.

Roy Tucker
10-26-2006, 05:47 PM
I think it's funny. Gamesmanship.

Bud will probably order the radar gun be calibrated by an independent 3rd party and then sealed. Take all the fun out of it.

flyer85
10-26-2006, 05:58 PM
I think it's funny. Gamesmanship.
This is one of the better ones of recent memory.

Yachtzee
10-26-2006, 06:40 PM
If you really wanted to mess with the pitcher, just replace the scoreboard radar gun with a classic game of Pong.

puca
10-26-2006, 08:13 PM
I guess I'm the only one offended by this. If true, this is not simply gamesmanship. Managers, catchers and pitchers use the radar readings to as a gauge. Imagine if the wrong count was purposely displayed for opposing batters. I think it comes very close to crossing the line.

Yachtzee
10-26-2006, 09:24 PM
I guess I'm the only one offended by this. If true, this is not simply gamesmanship. Managers, catchers and pitchers use the radar readings to as a gauge. Imagine if the wrong count was purposely displayed for opposing batters. I think it comes very close to crossing the line.

Scoreboard radar guns aren't the most accurate. If a team really wants to know how fast a pitcher is throwing, they can put one of their scouts in a seat behind home plate with a radar gun.

puca
10-26-2006, 10:00 PM
But that scout shouldn't be signalling or calling into the dugout. I'm pretty sure relaying information to the dugout from the stands is not a practice that is condoned in baseball.

Everyone realizes that scoreboard radar guns are always accurate, but as long as they are consistent...it is still a useful gauge of how a pitcher is doing. But changing the accuracy of the radar gun on a pitcher by pitcher or inning by inning basis is not "gamesmanship". Intentionally tricking an opponent into thinking he is not at his physical peak is not "gamesmanship". Would tricking a tennis player into thinking his serve was 10MPH slower than usual be "gamesmanship"? Would tricking a golfer that his drives were going 40 ft shorter than normal be "gamesmanship"? How about intentionally putting the wrong count on the scoreboard when the oppostion bats?

Gamesmanship would be Kenny Rogers sporting a brown food color stained hand when he takes the mound again.

Highlifeman21
10-26-2006, 11:14 PM
But that scout shouldn't be signalling or calling into the dugout. I'm pretty sure relaying information to the dugout from the stands is not a practice that is condoned in baseball.

Everyone realizes that scoreboard radar guns are always accurate, but as long as they are consistent...it is still a useful gauge of how a pitcher is doing. But changing the accuracy of the radar gun on a pitcher by pitcher or inning by inning basis is not "gamesmanship". Intentionally tricking an opponent into thinking he is not at his physical peak is not "gamesmanship". Would tricking a tennis player into thinking his serve was 10MPH slower than usual be "gamesmanship"? Would tricking a golfer that his drives were going 40 ft shorter than normal be "gamesmanship"? How about intentionally putting the wrong count on the scoreboard when the oppostion bats?

Gamesmanship would be Kenny Rogers sporting a brown food color stained hand when he takes the mound again.


1. We measure things in yards.
2. How on earth are you going to trick someone into thinking their drives are shorter? Change all the sprinkler head yardages to the middle of the greens?
3. Gamesmanship in golf is making an opponent putt everything out in match play. Gamesmanship is questioning them on obscure rules.

Zumaya throws as hard as anyone in the game right now, and if he needs a radar gun to tell him so, then I want nothing to do with him in our bullpen b/c it tells me one thing: head case.

lo ryder
10-26-2006, 11:37 PM
Let me see, how many would complain when stopped by the police about the radar accuracy. I'd say an overwhelming majority. But everyone has relied on the accuracy for the same tool during a sporting event and never questioned accuracy until this earth shattering story broke.

If its true, very funny. If not its typical ESPN BS, trying to stir the pot.

guttle11
10-27-2006, 03:02 AM
1. We measure things in yards.
2. How on earth are you going to trick someone into thinking their drives are shorter? Change all the sprinkler head yardages to the middle of the greens?
3. Gamesmanship in golf is making an opponent putt everything out in match play. Gamesmanship is questioning them on obscure rules.



Seriously, that's the best part of golf, isn't it? I like to call people over to ask them if I can have relief from sprinkler heads, cartpath etc.

But yeah, this isn't really gamesmanship or anything. I'd actually trust the 98 reading a lot more than a 103.

savafan
10-27-2006, 04:21 AM
Home field advantage...

The Cardinals had an 83-79 regular season record. The entire series should be played in Detroit in my opinion...

puca
10-27-2006, 07:32 AM
1. We measure things in yards.
2. How on earth are you going to trick someone into thinking their drives are shorter? Change all the sprinkler head yardages to the middle of the greens?
3. Gamesmanship in golf is making an opponent putt everything out in match play. Gamesmanship is questioning them on obscure rules.

Zumaya throws as hard as anyone in the game right now, and if he needs a radar gun to tell him so, then I want nothing to do with him in our bullpen b/c it tells me one thing: head case.

Okay bad example with golf. I guess I should stick to sports I know or at least care about.

Using somethng like the scoreboard to intentionally mislead an opponent is bad form in my opinion. No one will convince me otherwise, but apparently I'm the only one that thinks so.

Matt700wlw
10-27-2006, 10:38 AM
The Cardinals had an 83-79 regular season record. The entire series should be played in Detroit in my opinion...

Can't say I disagree, but that's not the rules of baseball...

NJReds
10-27-2006, 11:08 AM
I thought the radar gun was for the fans, not for the players. They should be, at the very least, accurate. If not, they serve no purpose.

NJReds
10-27-2006, 11:09 AM
Home field advantage...

Like when the Twins changed turned off the air conditioning (allegedly) when their hitters were batting.

Just gamesmanship...

Yachtzee
10-27-2006, 11:13 AM
Let me see, how many would complain when stopped by the police about the radar accuracy. I'd say an overwhelming majority. But everyone has relied on the accuracy for the same tool during a sporting event and never questioned accuracy until this earth shattering story broke.

If its true, very funny. If not its typical ESPN BS, trying to stir the pot.

I wonder if the stadium operations folks bust out the tuning forks before each game to make sure that the radar is properly calibrated.

NJReds
10-27-2006, 11:41 AM
Let me see, how many would complain when stopped by the police about the radar accuracy. I'd say an overwhelming majority. But everyone has relied on the accuracy for the same tool during a sporting event and never questioned accuracy until this earth shattering story broke.

I don't know if the accuracy is the issue. I don't think anyone believes that the HR that Jr. hit off Zumaya earlier this year was really a 104MPH heater. But intentionally changing the calibration based on the pitcher goes beyond simple inaccuracy. I didn't know you could change the calibration on a radar gun...why would you want inaccurate readings, anyway?

blumj
10-27-2006, 11:41 AM
I thought the radar gun was for the fans, not for the players. They should be, at the very least, accurate. If not, they serve no purpose.
What about Fox pumping up their guns for entertainment purposes? Unless that was ESPN? Or both? Ooh, Zumaya's hitting 103 every other pitch, until someone finally called them on it. But, yeah, you can't trust anyone to give you the truth.

NJReds
10-27-2006, 11:44 AM
What about Fox pumping up their guns for entertainment purposes? Unless that was ESPN? Or both? Ooh, Zumaya's hitting 103 every other pitch, until someone finally called them on it. But, yeah, you can't trust anyone to give you the truth.


I agree. There's no reason for them if they're not accurate readings. I don't usually pay them any mind, anyway. You can tell when a guy's dealing...you don't need numbers to prove it.

Chip R
10-27-2006, 11:57 AM
Oh, what did we do before radar guns? :laugh:

blumj
10-27-2006, 12:39 PM
I think we watched the pitches. Novel concept.

Johnny Footstool
10-27-2006, 12:41 PM
Oh, what did we do before radar guns? :laugh:

There was baseball before radar guns?

Roy Tucker
10-27-2006, 02:29 PM
Oh, what did we do before radar guns? :laugh:

We timed them with a sundial back in the day.