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Natty Redlocks
10-29-2006, 01:07 PM
First, this will never happen. I know this. But I was trying to imagine a scenario where another team would take Ken Griffey Jr. off our hands, and here's what I came up with:

Chicago Cubs get:

Dunn
KGJ
Freel

Reds get:

Felix Pie
Matt Murton
2 or 3 young pitchers (Aardsma, Guzman, Marshall, Marmol, Mateo, Ryu, etc)

Why on earth would the Reds do this?

Because they're not going anywhere as long as Ken Griffey Jr. and his contract are around. He's no longer a reliable offensive centerpiece. He apparently refuses to entertain the notion that he may not be the best defensive CF available. You include Dunn because there's no way the deal happens if you don't. Unloading them both--and replacing them both with cheap young players with fairly high ceilings--frees up about a third of the payroll and expedites the inevitable rebuilding process. Instead of improving marginally while you wait for two years to get rid of Junior, you rebuild in one fell swoop. You include Freel because he's way more valuable to the Cubs as a leadoff hitter and backup to Jr. than he is to the Reds. Quite frankly, even if it was for just Murton and Pie, you could make a case that those two make a lot more sense financially for the Reds than Dunn and Griffey.

And why would the Cubs do it?

It definitely would not be their first choice. Their first choice is to sign Soriano to lead off and play CF. Or trade for A-Rod or Tejada. To upgrade offensively up the middle to make up for their weak OF corners. If they fail to do this, they'll be desperate, and a trade like this one could have some appeal.

Why would Junior waive his 10/5 rights?

First, the trade itself would let him know the Reds don't want him in CF. The Cubs would have no place BUT CF to play him. Playing under Lou Piniella, his mgr during his glory years in Seattle, may appeal to him. Geography shouldn't be a problem either.

I know it's a ridiculous proposal. I'd be very interested in hearing any other scenarios where another team might be willing to take Junior. I like him fine but for the Reds he's too expensive for what he provides.

RedLegSuperStar
10-29-2006, 01:39 PM
Chicago Cubs get:

Dunn
KGJ
Freel

Reds get:

Felix Pie
Matt Murton
2 or 3 young pitchers (Aardsma, Guzman, Marshall, Marmol, Mateo, Ryu, etc)

Yikes.. Give me Zambrano and Pie

Joseph
10-29-2006, 01:56 PM
Whats the love affair with Murton?

RedsManRick
10-29-2006, 01:58 PM
I think maybe we should throw Homer Bailey and Jay Bruce in. Definitely not giving up enough in this one...

reds44
10-29-2006, 01:59 PM
lol

terminator
10-29-2006, 02:02 PM
I thought it was Daylight Saving Time, not April Fools Day.

pahster
10-29-2006, 02:36 PM
Whats the love affair with Murton?

He's got good minor league OBP numbers, but they're a bit too BA dependant for me to have more than a passing interest in him.

Highlifeman21
10-29-2006, 03:21 PM
He's got good minor league OBP numbers, but they're a bit too BA dependant for me to have more than a passing interest in him.

So does Chris Denorfia, but he's not getting much playing time from us, and plays better defense. Try some of our own guys before we send a Bentley to the Cubs and get a Dodge Neon in return.

pahster
10-29-2006, 04:21 PM
So does Chris Denorfia, but he's not getting much playing time from us, and plays better defense. Try some of our own guys before we send a Bentley to the Cubs and get a Dodge Neon in return.

Oh I agree. I want Denorfia in CF next year. I want to keep Dunn as well. I don't really understand everyone's willingness to trade the Reds' best offensive player.

Highlifeman21
10-29-2006, 04:36 PM
Oh I agree. I want Denorfia in CF next year. I want to keep Dunn as well. I don't really understand everyone's willingness to trade the Reds' best offensive player.


You and me both.

He's been our best offensive player since 2002. He's a talent that came up from the minors, and I'd sure as hell like to see him in a Reds uni for his whole career. I understand we have a pitching weakness and trading Dunn should address that weakness, but most of these trade proposals are honestly just a trade Dunn for the sake of trade. I can understand that last year with Sean Casey. We needed to salary dump Sean Casey. Adam Dunn is not Sean Casey.

Falls City Beer
10-29-2006, 04:38 PM
Murton strikes me as a less slovenly Austin Kearns. I'd like to pick him up, but I'm afraid the Cubs now know what they have in him.

Natty Redlocks
10-29-2006, 07:41 PM
Am I really the only one who thinks the number one thing keeping the Reds from moving forward is Griffey?

This wasn't a "dump Dunn" thread. It was a "dump Dunn if it's the only way to dump Junior" thread.

I like Dunn, I really do. But I don't feel he has to be clung to at all costs. The idea of a cheap, promising offensive core is appealling, as long as the extra money is spent on bringing in and retaining good pitching.

Like I said, if anyone has any remotely realistic ideas on how to move out of the Junior era -- or reasons why it shouldn't be done as soon as possible -- I'm very interested in exploring them. But as a franchise player he's been pretty much a total bust since he arrived here and his contract --and attitude-- has severely limited the team's options. It looks to me like it's only going to get worse. I'd rather see them solve the problem and move forward rather than tiptoe around it for two more painful years.

Falls City Beer
10-29-2006, 08:16 PM
Am I really the only one who thinks the number one thing keeping the Reds from moving forward is Griffey?

This wasn't a "dump Dunn" thread. It was a "dump Dunn if it's the only way to dump Junior" thread.

I like Dunn, I really do. But I don't feel he has to be clung to at all costs. The idea of a cheap, promising offensive core is appealling, as long as the extra money is spent on bringing in and retaining good pitching.

Like I said, if anyone has any remotely realistic ideas on how to move out of the Junior era -- or reasons why it shouldn't be done as soon as possible -- I'm very interested in exploring them. But as a franchise player he's been pretty much a total bust since he arrived here and his contract --and attitude-- has severely limited the team's options. It looks to me like it's only going to get worse. I'd rather see them solve the problem and move forward rather than tiptoe around it for two more painful years.

You make some excellent points. But Junior can nix any trade.

Natty Redlocks
10-29-2006, 08:28 PM
Junior can nix any trade.

That's true, of course. But that doesn't mean he definitely would refuse every trade. Especially if he knew the Reds weren't willing to put him in CF any more, and the team he'd be going to was.

Falls City Beer
10-29-2006, 08:30 PM
That's true, of course. But that doesn't mean he definitely would refuse every trade. Especially if he knew the Reds weren't willing to put him in CF any more, and the team he'd be going to was.

It's not the worst idea to make Junior's life miserable so he'll accept a trade. But those are the tactics the team would have to resort to to dump him.

Natty Redlocks
10-29-2006, 08:38 PM
It's not the worst idea to make Junior's life miserable so he'll accept a trade. But those are the tactics the team would have to resort to to dump him.

If those are considered dishonorable tactics, he brought them on himself by his behavior. I would love nothing better than to see him reinvent himself as a veteran support type player on this team. Doing whatever he's asked for the good of the team. I've heard nothing to indicate he has any interest in that. And I've heard nothing from the Reds to indicate they think of him the way most fans do, either. They're classic enablers. If that doesn't change, it's going to be a long two years, IMO.

Falls City Beer
10-29-2006, 08:44 PM
If those are considered dishonorable tactics, he brought them on himself by his behavior. I would love nothing better than to see him reinvent himself as a veteran support type player on this team. Doing whatever he's asked for the good of the team. I've heard nothing to indicate he has any interest in that. And I've heard nothing from the Reds to indicate they think of him the way most fans do, either. They're classic enablers. If that doesn't change, it's going to be a long two years, IMO.

Fair enough. You've convinced me.

Redhook
10-29-2006, 09:05 PM
If those are considered dishonorable tactics, he brought them on himself by his behavior. I would love nothing better than to see him reinvent himself as a veteran support type player on this team. Doing whatever he's asked for the good of the team. I've heard nothing to indicate he has any interest in that. And I've heard nothing from the Reds to indicate they think of him the way most fans do, either. They're classic enablers. If that doesn't change, it's going to be a long two years, IMO.

I agree. For the most part, I like JR. I respect him for how hard he has worked to come back from the plethora of injuries he's had and for everything he has had to deal with during his tenure here, but that being said, he doesn't seem to be a team player at all. How he doesn't realize CF is not the best option for him anymore is beyond me. He's clearly not doing the best for the team by not offering to change positions. And Narron lacks the cajones to tell him he's not batting 3rd anymore. Unfortunately, I don't see the Reds as serious contenders with him on the team. EVER. Like you said, "it's going to be a long two years" unless he's miraculously traded.

Trading Dunn and JR. in a package deal isn't going to happen. I really can't think of any scenario where he would be traded. I think we have a better chance of him retiring early than trading him.

vance
10-29-2006, 09:18 PM
I'm a Cubs fan, and I'd do this deal.

mth123
10-29-2006, 10:04 PM
Am I really the only one who thinks the number one thing keeping the Reds from moving forward is Griffey?

This wasn't a "dump Dunn" thread. It was a "dump Dunn if it's the only way to dump Junior" thread.

I like Dunn, I really do. But I don't feel he has to be clung to at all costs. The idea of a cheap, promising offensive core is appealling, as long as the extra money is spent on bringing in and retaining good pitching.

Like I said, if anyone has any remotely realistic ideas on how to move out of the Junior era -- or reasons why it shouldn't be done as soon as possible -- I'm very interested in exploring them. But as a franchise player he's been pretty much a total bust since he arrived here and his contract --and attitude-- has severely limited the team's options. It looks to me like it's only going to get worse. I'd rather see them solve the problem and move forward rather than tiptoe around it for two more painful years.

The problem again is trading a still young offensive force for question marks. The return for Dunn has to be more than getting rid of JR's contract and two unproven players who will never be as good as Dunn is now. Murton and Pie may turn out to be very good players. They could end up being Gerald Williams and Brad Komminsk as well. If you want to trade Jr, I understand pursuing that. I don't get throwing Dunn in just to get some one to say yes. I'd just keep Jr if that was the requirement. I understand payflex and all, but with those guys gone you'll have a team with money to spend and no one who wants it. For quality free agents to consider cincy they will want to see some possibility of competing. Trading away the middle of the order isn't the way to get them. As I have said many times, there is a reason that KC and Pittsburgh always sign guys like Matt Stairs and Jeromy Burnitz.

As far as Griffey goes, I don't really disagree. I might even offer him the chance to void his contract to shop himself around to see if anyone would play him in CF. I doubt anyone will give him the chance even if he'd play for the minimum. Once he sees it, problem solved. If some one wants him, then let him go, but do not trade other talent just to get rid of him. He is still a decent threat in the middle of the order and once out of CF there are worse options. Murton may be one of them.

RedsManRick
10-29-2006, 11:04 PM
Junior is not valueless, despite how poor his CF defense is these days. Trading Dunn, just to get rid of Juniors salary does not make the Reds a better team. Particularly when the return is an .800 OPS corner OF. The Reds are now a mediocre offensive squad, and simply cannot dump offense without getting equal offense in return -- unless we're getting Pedro circa 99-00 to bring our pitching above average.

I agree that Junior in CF and Dunn in LF is unacceptable. But Junior can conceivably move to RF -- it would be probably be easier than moving to Chicago.

SeeinRed
10-29-2006, 11:13 PM
Trading 2/3 (and part of the other third no less!) of your starting outfield is bad enough, especially when they are established Major Leaguers who can still help your club. (Make no mistake about it, this team is better with them in the lineup, just maybe not with Jr. in CF) You could even make a case that with Dunn in one corner, Freel in CF, and Griffey in the other corner they could be a pretty darn good outfield. But to trade them to the same team is even worse. Not even to mention that team is in your own division!:eek: :explode: Why help a team that you will be battling so often next year. You would pretty much give them an outfield, and about 60-70 homers next year.

Falls City Beer
10-30-2006, 11:47 AM
Junior is not valueless, despite how poor his CF defense is these days. Trading Dunn, just to get rid of Juniors salary does not make the Reds a better team. Particularly when the return is an .800 OPS corner OF. The Reds are now a mediocre offensive squad, and simply cannot dump offense without getting equal offense in return -- unless we're getting Pedro circa 99-00 to bring our pitching above average.

I agree that Junior in CF and Dunn in LF is unacceptable. But Junior can conceivably move to RF -- it would be probably be easier than moving to Chicago.

On balance, Junior's valueless. In fact, he's a deficit.

redsupport
10-30-2006, 11:50 AM
no one would take the attenuated, effete, lithopede

Falls City Beer
10-30-2006, 11:56 AM
no one would take the attenuated, effete, lithopede

Gird yourself for the contumely from the kakistocratic hoi polloi!

What contemnatious calumniation!

redsupport
10-30-2006, 12:18 PM
Excellent riposte, I can feelthe thersitical billingsgate, suffusing the website. I have donned my calcarine carapce and annealed my integuement for the inevitable rush by the griffey myrmidons

Natty Redlocks
10-30-2006, 12:41 PM
Hokey smokes.

Okay, maybe this isn't the all-time greatest idea. However:

1. You have to admit, it would make for a pretty memorable Opening Day.

2. For this team, Junior no longer makes sense. Dunn makes less sense all the time.

3. I think people are underestimating the potential of Murton and especially Pie. You may see a couple of nobodies who would have to be replaced soon. I see a pretty good chance at an outfield version of Wright and Reyes within a couple years, perhaps sooner.

4. Pitching, pitching, pitching.

SultanOfSwing
10-30-2006, 02:37 PM
Pass...

EddieMilner
10-31-2006, 09:20 AM
Junior is not valueless, despite how poor his CF defense is these days. Trading Dunn, just to get rid of Juniors salary does not make the Reds a better team. Particularly when the return is an .800 OPS corner OF. The Reds are now a mediocre offensive squad, and simply cannot dump offense without getting equal offense in return -- unless we're getting Pedro circa 99-00 to bring our pitching above average.

I agree that Junior in CF and Dunn in LF is unacceptable. But Junior can conceivably move to RF -- it would be probably be easier than moving to Chicago.

Are you seriously saying that KGJ + Dunn = Pedro in his prime?

If thats the only trade you would make for these two, then you are simply not realistic. This could be the perfect example of a Reds fan over valuing our own talent.

klw
10-31-2006, 10:18 AM
Unless the Reds get overwhelmed they should not move Jr or Dunn for that matter. I haven't checked the numbers but the Reds just seem to be better offensivley with Jr in the lineup. The key is finding the best linup slot and position for him. Yes this year was not a good one for him but his off-field issues surely took there toll on him. I think the Reds need to keep him.