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View Full Version : Bengals v. Ravens -- 'Do or die?'



WMR
11-01-2006, 12:47 PM
Notes: Mega game next

By GEOFF HOBSON
October 30, 2006

Facing one of those do or die games that come along every regular season, upbeat Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis set the tone for the week with his players Monday by harping on the theme he has preached since the offseason.

“We need to pull together, stick together, and stay together as a team,” said defensive tackle John Thornton as he and his teammates digested their third loss in the last four games. “It’s what he’s talked about all year. If guys had a good game, don’t look at other players because they didn’t have a good game. If one side of the ball doesn’t play well and the other side doesn’t, don’t make excuses."

Waiting for the 4-3 Bengals in Baltimore this Sunday are the AFC North-leading Ravens at 5-2 in a game that needs no description. But Lewis did anyway.

“About 15 or 16 teams would love to have the chance we have,” said middle linebacker Brian Simmons. “To be in first place in our division at the halfway point.”

Lewis brushed aside comments by right tackle Willie Anderson and running back Rudi Johnson that questioned why the Bengals ran the ball just 18 times in Sunday’s 29-27 loss to Atlanta.

“It’s that normal thing that the players go through, ‘It’s not me, it’s got to be somebody else,’ ’’ Lewis said of the frustration. “Rudi touched the ball 50 percent of the plays that he was in. That’s pretty good.”

As for Anderson and Johnson wanting to play smashball against the smaller Falcons line, Lewis offered, “We did pound Atlanta until they hit us for a seven-yard loss in the third quarter. Second and 17, I don’t know how much pounding we are going to do at that point. We did pound. We went up and down the field. We do certain things on offense and I appreciate their thoughts. But if they were always 100 percent right, we would really be in great shape. “

TIEBREAKERS: With the Bengals and Ravens in such a tight race and the third tiebreaker being common foes, the 12 games they share as well as the two they play are absolutely huge.


Record Head to Head: 0-0
AFC North Record: Bengals 2-0, Ravens 1-0.
Record in Common Games: Bengals 4-2 (beat Kansas City, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Carolina; lost to Tampa Bay and Atlanta; Ravens 5-2 (beat Tampa Bay, Oakland Cleveland, San Diego, New Orleans; lost to Denver and Carolina.
AFC Record: Bengals 3-1, Ravens 3-1.

WRIGHT RETURNS: It’s also a big game for Bengals backup quarterback Anthony Wright, returning after a three-week absence because of an appendectomy. He started seven games for the Ravens last season, including the 21-9 Bengals victory in Baltimore last season.

“It’s going to be nice to see it from the other side and be down on the sidelines,” Wright said. “There were no ill feelings. They didn’t re-sign me. They had a young quarterback (Kyle Boller) and they had a decision to make.”

The Ravens opted to let Wright go and sign former NFL MVP Steve McNair, “but I’m happy to be in this situation and to make a run at it,” Wright said.

INJURY UPDATE: Lewis ruled out center Rich Braham (knee), left tackle Levi Jones (knee), and wide receiver Kelley Washington (hamstring) for Baltimore ... Strong safety Kevin Kaesviharn has a bruised knee and is questionable ... After aggravating a neck stinger Sunday, Simmons is paying a visit to the doctor Tuesday to discuss treatments.

STILL NO P-DUB: There are still no indications the Bengals are going to sign wide receiver Peter Warrick after his workout last week.

In fact the Bengals are still looking. An NFC media source said Monday that among the players the Bengals worked out Monday were veteran wide receivers Kevin Johnson and Darius Watts.

Johnson, 30, an eight-year man out of Syracuse, finished last season in Detroit and caught just 17 balls in six games. During his first four seasons in Cleveland, where he was the first pick in the second round by the 1999 expansion Browns, Johnson caught at least 57 balls and had 669 yards. His high water mark came in 2001, when he caught a career 84 passes for his only 1,000-yard season and nine touchdowns. But at 5-11, 195 pounds, he’s not much bigger than Warrick.

The 6-2, 188-pound Watts is closer to the mold of the big receiver the Bengals prefer. A second-round pick of the Broncos in 2004, Watts caught 31 balls for 385 yards and a touchdown as a rookie before catching just two balls last season in six games and getting cut loose by the Broncos in a surprise move on Cutdown Day this season.

macro
11-01-2006, 06:37 PM
I'm on record as believing that this team will not make the playoffs, but Sunday's game won't make or break the season. Being two games out with eight to play is no reason to panic. Being tied for first with eight games to go is no reason for celebration.

guttle11
11-01-2006, 08:14 PM
Of course it's not "Do or die". The Ravens still have to play Pittsburgh twice, and come to PBS.

Also, the AFC playoff race is incredibly top heavy. Even if the Ravens run away with the division, the sixth playoff spot will likely be between the Bengals, Jaguars, and Chiefs. I like the Bengals chances in that regard.

Strikes Out Looking
11-01-2006, 08:14 PM
They will win because I will be there! (And by the way to any of you ever taking a trip to Baltimore, both stadiums -- football and baseball are great).

OldRightHander
11-02-2006, 07:33 AM
The Ravens still have to play Pittsburgh twice,

Which isn't a very tough game these days. Just ask Oakland.

Joseph
11-05-2006, 02:29 PM
14 nothing Ravens already. It might be over before it starts.

WMR
11-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Are we even playing with an offensive line???

I honestly can't tell one way or the other.

Joseph
11-05-2006, 02:47 PM
Doesn't much look like it. Gives one an all new appreciation for a man named after blue jeans.

WMR
11-05-2006, 03:06 PM
TD --- Housh-yodaddy

Joseph
11-05-2006, 03:06 PM
'bout time

WMR
11-05-2006, 03:33 PM
Our 'blitzes' are pathetic.

Heath
11-05-2006, 03:37 PM
Our 'blitzes' are pathetic.

What blitzes?

Seems like the Bengals are a Jamal Lewis mis-direction away from going down by another TD.

Yikes.

For those of you in the Dayton area - stay tuned and enjoy Cleveland and San Diego. Should be a barnerburner....for the Chargers anyway.

cincy jacket
11-05-2006, 03:38 PM
Todd Heap is annoying

Playadlc
11-05-2006, 03:41 PM
The Bengals can't cover anybody right now.

And the Chris Perry pick is easily the dumbest move Marvin has made in his short tenure.

I said 8-8, but that is a stretch at this point. This football team is worse in every facet of the game than they were last season.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:03 PM
COULD SOMEONE SIT DOWN WITH KEIWAN RATLIFF AND EXPLAIN WHEN YOU DO AND DO NOT CATCH A PUNT?????

Jesus!!!!!!

MrCinatit
11-05-2006, 04:03 PM
It was depressing before the game watching every analyst alive tear apart the Bengals for their complete incompetence when it comes to winning games against talented teams.
What was most depressing was that it is true.
Marv has some serious work to do over the offseason - the O line needs torn apart, and the defense needs lightyears of improvement.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:06 PM
Is there a team in the NFL that throws more short dumps than the Bengals?

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:08 PM
This will be over-turned

BoydsOfSummer
11-05-2006, 04:11 PM
Die! Die! Die! :D

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:14 PM
HUGE play by CP and Henry.

Billick is whining again.

If we punch it in here...we've got a ball game. Ray Lewis may not be back.

cincy jacket
11-05-2006, 04:16 PM
Rudi!!! Rudi!!!! Rudi!!!!!

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:18 PM
So...suddenly Ray Lewis is okay...waaaaah! I'm hurt....bad! Waaaah...wait, wait...I'll be okay.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:21 PM
LOL our D is so sorry

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:26 PM
I'll say it again...what ever happened to Marvin being a defensive genius?

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:28 PM
And another thing...what's with Shayne Graham's crappy kickoffs? They've really hurt us in this game.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:31 PM
Hard to make plays when you're sitting on your ass

Playadlc
11-05-2006, 04:33 PM
Carson Palmer...what is going on?

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:35 PM
I dunno why you want to blame Carson for most of this crap... he has had NO time almost every play today.

Playadlc
11-05-2006, 04:37 PM
I dunno why you want to blame Carson for most of this crap... he has had NO time almost every play today.

It goes both ways. True he hasn't had the best blocking up front, and that has affected his play, but he is not at the level he was at last season.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:40 PM
FG by Graham good

Cin - 20
Bal - 26

Bengals MUST GET A STOP

4 minutes left

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:42 PM
It goes both ways. True he hasn't had the best blocking up front, and that has affected his play, but he is not at the level he was at last season.

Agreed, certainly.

Most athletes come back 18 months after the type of injury he suffered.

Putting him at 80-85% physically is probably being kind and, as far as his mental timing, I don't think he's anywhere close to where he was.

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:43 PM
Gee-Mih--Nee! I'm sorry but we have GOT to find somebody who can kick it deeper on kickoffs.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:45 PM
Not to mention the rag-tag offensive line and the loss of his security blankey Richie Braham.

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:46 PM
ALRIGHT: We've got a GREAT CHANCE!!

C'mon OFFENSE!!!

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:50 PM
Pfffft.

turnovers.

Not only did they give the Ravens a 14-pt. lead...but what ever happened to the Bengals forcing turnovers. When's the last time we got one? Cripe!

macro
11-05-2006, 04:51 PM
TJ was interfered with on that game-ending play. Where was the official?

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:52 PM
@@##$#$%#$A$@%#@%$

Should have been a penalty.... oh well, we lose another one, no help from the dumbass zebras

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:52 PM
I realize we dug ourselves a big hole. But holy smokes, the officials ARE NOT HELPING US THIS YEAR! DO YOUR FREAKING JOBS, refs!

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:52 PM
@#$%

WMR
11-05-2006, 04:53 PM
Man what a load of crap

max venable
11-05-2006, 04:58 PM
Got screwed in TB...got screwed in Baltimore. It's a joke.

NatiRedGals
11-05-2006, 05:06 PM
Go to http://badzebras.com/ and vote aganist the REFS this is just sad...

kbrake
11-05-2006, 05:08 PM
I agree with you guys it was a bad call. However the Bengals continue to lose not the refs. They let a rookie QB drive down the field on them in Tampa and today they played like crap early and like always Palmer spent more time on his back than his feet. The Bengals are losing because they are playing poorly not because the refs keep "screwing" them.

macro
11-05-2006, 05:10 PM
Someone asked this earlier, but are the Bengals playing with an offensive line? I think the last play in which Palmer didn't end up on his back was in Week 3.

Reds Freak
11-05-2006, 05:10 PM
Nothing is really going the Bengals way at this point. Injuries, poor play, bounces, field goals doinking in, interceptions going through defenders hands, and questionable officiating.

Yachtzee
11-05-2006, 05:15 PM
The early fumble and the early interception putting them in a 14 point hole hurt them. I did like the increased use of Rudi earlier in the game. The first few series, Palmer looked pretty bad. Using Rudi on subsequent drives seemed to help calm Palmer down and slowed down the Baltimore pass rush. I think it might have been a different game had the Bengals not been down by 14 within the first 5 minutes.

The Bengals had a bad no-call on that 4th down late, and a nice pass defensed by the umpire on the previous series. They may well have won the game had one of those two plays turned out differently, but maybe they wouldn't have been down by 6 at the end if they hadn't coughed the ball up so early.

traderumor
11-05-2006, 05:16 PM
I agree with you guys it was a bad call. However the Bengals continue to lose not the refs. They let a rookie QB drive down the field on them in Tampa and today they played like crap early and like always Palmer spent more time on his back than his feet. The Bengals are losing because they are playing poorly not because the refs keep "screwing" them.Again, the way any team plays is irrelevant to how the officials perform. Of course the refs didn't lose the game, the Bengals still would have to go about 65 more yards from there. But, the officials job is to make correct calls. When they do not, it is fair game to criticize their calls and say that it had an impact on the game. Everybody knows this, but it is beside the point. Just like the Bengals need to do their jobs and when they do not it impacts games, so does it when the refs do not do their job. That was not even a hard call, much like the one you dredged up from week #5.

traderumor
11-05-2006, 05:21 PM
I'll say it again...what ever happened to Marvin being a defensive genius?Brian Billick was supposed to be an offensive genius, yet when he became a head coach, his teams have constantly struggled on offense. When you figure that one out, I think you'll have the answer for why Marvin's teams achilles heel have been the defense. I think that one's specialty as an assistant is only going to play out as a head coach if they are doing the coordinating. Right now, the pass D is horrid. Something has got to change in the second half, but I doubt it will. It's still a personnel problem.

smith288
11-05-2006, 05:25 PM
Hard to shore up the D when the quality of the player on the dline is abhorrent.

traderumor
11-05-2006, 05:26 PM
Nothing is really going the Bengals way at this point. Injuries, poor play, bounces, field goals doinking in, interceptions going through defenders hands, and questionable officiating.Constantly bad field position on both sides of the ball is making it very hard on themselves. The only way the D stops anybody is on turnovers, and they have not been getting them, although the opportunities have been there, just not making the plays.

I want to comment on Palmer ripping into Chris Henry for his quitting on that hail mary. He didn't even jump for the ball.

traderumor
11-05-2006, 05:28 PM
Hard to shore up the D when the quality of the player on the dline is abhorrent.Yea, no pass rush. They put pressure on maybe twice all day today. It was pathetic.

cincy jacket
11-05-2006, 05:42 PM
On a bright side to all this, Joseph looked really impressive today. I think we should start to see less and less of Tory "grandpa" James for the rest of the year.

guttle11
11-05-2006, 05:47 PM
Ok, there's four minutes to go, you're down by six. You've been having great success throwing the ball all second half. The O line is actually giving Carson time to throw.

1st ten on the last drive, taking the last paragraph into play, what do you do?

Yes, Mr Bratkowski?

"Run?"

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

PS: If I see one more 10 yard cushion on a 3rd and 5/6/7, I think my head's going to explode.

max venable
11-05-2006, 05:52 PM
I agree with you guys it was a bad call. However the Bengals continue to lose not the refs. They let a rookie QB drive down the field on them in Tampa and today they played like crap early and like always Palmer spent more time on his back than his feet. The Bengals are losing because they are playing poorly not because the refs keep "screwing" them.

Nobody said the refs were the reason the Bengals lost. Win or lose, they still got screwed on some bad calls. That's all. We just want the freaking refs to do their jobs.

paintmered
11-05-2006, 05:58 PM
When Carson actually had time to throw today, he looked like the Carson of last year. But that's the problem, he hasn't had much time to chop up defenses with his arm because he's throwing off his back foot every other attempt.

Tony Cloninger
11-05-2006, 06:07 PM
It goes back to the people the Bengals draft.

Why can DL make a defense in PITT but not 1 in Cincy?

Beacuse....even PITT with all the small market stuff they deal with, like the Bengals......and an owner who is family based.......even they know....you need a very good GM and competent scouts, year round.

Scouts and GM who know what players will fit in that system.

How many of PITT very good defensive players in the 90's went to other teams and excelled like they did in PITT.

Maybe Chad Brown?

The question is next year....if this team goes 7-9 or 6-10...which is a very easy possibility....... what kind of team will this be?

They have, it seems, for the most part ZERO heart......any adversity puts them out. Mainly on defense....where they seem incapable of stopping anyone on a consistent basis. They did against PITT and CAR...but that was beacuse of TO's.

I think some players though they were big time....after a 4-0 PS and a 3-0 start.......SURE the injuries have not helped....but Rich Braham was not Dwight Stephenson...... I mean come on.....how bad do you have to be as an OL...when you all turn to crap just beacuse he goes down?

MWM
11-05-2006, 06:14 PM
What we're seeing this year on defense is what last year's defense would have looked like without the turnovers, which was the product of luck moreso than design. The defense line is awful and the pass rush is as bad as I've seen. Marvin has obviously done a good job overall, but the defense hasn't improved at all and that's a big indictment on him. This defense is just horrendous. And for some reason the O-Line is playing poorly this year, so you don't have the offensive juggernaut to cover it up. I'm thinking 7-9, maybe 6-10 for this team.

And I'm tired of seeing Bengals players whining like a bunch of babies. If Marvin isn't careful he's going to lose control of the team altogether. I see a lot of jawing going on within the team and a lot of egos that appear to be getting out of control. I wish they'd just shut up and play.

traderumor
11-05-2006, 06:31 PM
What we're seeing this year on defense is what last year's defense would have looked like without the turnovers, which was the product of luck moreso than design. The defense line is awful and the pass rush is as bad as I've seen. Marvin has obviously done a good job overall, but the defense hasn't improved at all and that's a big indictment on him. This defense is just horrendous. And for some reason the O-Line is playing poorly this year, so you don't have the offensive juggernaut to cover it up. I'm thinking 7-9, maybe 6-10 for this team.

And I'm tired of seeing Bengals players whining like a bunch of babies. If Marvin isn't careful he's going to lose control of the team altogether. I see a lot of jawing going on within the team and a lot of egos that appear to be getting out of control. I wish they'd just shut up and play.

I think you hit it on the D and I agree. This was what happened when the fade started in the last third of the season last year. No turnovers, no stops.

As for the last part, that is the modern day NFL player. All teams do the woofing, I simply don't pay any attention to it for the most part or I wouldn't be able to watch the NFL. TJ is an emotional dude, and he is rightly frustrated when easy calls keep going against his team.

CTA513
11-05-2006, 06:45 PM
When Carson actually had time to throw today, he looked like the Carson of last year. But that's the problem, he hasn't had much time to chop up defenses with his arm because he's throwing off his back foot every other attempt.

The injuries on the O-Line have really hurt his protection. He has already been sacked more this year than all of last year. He is also getting hit alot after throwing the ball. They need to improve really quick or shuffle some people around, because they cant keep on letting Palmer get hit.

SteelSD
11-05-2006, 08:19 PM
Well, Pitt's season just effectively ended- not coincidentally on their FIFTH turnover of the day.

Now I really hope the Bengals can start taking care of business because I'm going to be sickened if the freakin' Ravens take the division. Go get 'em.

MWM
11-05-2006, 08:27 PM
This division is going to be like the NL Central this year, the team that sucks the least will win.

max venable
11-05-2006, 09:09 PM
What you guys are saying about last year's D vs. this year's D is right, but the offense--and I know we're banged up on the OL--but last year's offense could just go out and outscore people. This year's version is not even all that fun to watch. I have no confidence in our ability to make clutch plays.

GAC
11-05-2006, 09:18 PM
What we're seeing this year on defense is what last year's defense would have looked like without the turnovers, which was the product of luck moreso than design. The defense line is awful and the pass rush is as bad as I've seen. Marvin has obviously done a good job overall, but the defense hasn't improved at all and that's a big indictment on him. This defense is just horrendous.

But do you think the lose of very key defensive players has been the key there?

And that was a bad call; but the way the Bengals were playing, and looking at what little time was on the clock, I don't think it would have mattered much.

WVRed
11-05-2006, 09:57 PM
This division is going to be like the NL Central this year, the team that sucks the least will win.

Negative. Baltimore is going to run away with the division.

Pittsburgh is in worse shape than Cincinnati, and the Bengals still have a brutal schedule. We face the Patriots and Colts, the Ravens play Tennessee and Miami. Injuries and the schedule will be what will do us in, and the Ravens will take full advantage.

I'm not calling for Marvin's head. In fact, letting him go would be the biggest blunder outside of Bob Huggins being forced out. He may not have improved the defense, but neither has Tony Dungy with the Colts. If anything, Marvin is Brian Billick in reverse. Billick was a brilliant offensive coordinator before he left the Vikings for the Ravens, but his specialty lies in defense.

If anybody should be on the hot seat right now, it should be Bob Bratkowski and his horrendous playcalling.

MWM
11-05-2006, 10:00 PM
NO way! Baltimore will be exposed. They're really not that good a football team.

traderumor
11-05-2006, 10:05 PM
Negative. Baltimore is going to run away with the division.

Pittsburgh is in worse shape than Cincinnati, and the Bengals still have a brutal schedule. We face the Patriots and Colts, the Ravens play Tennessee and Miami. Injuries and the schedule will be what will do us in, and the Ravens will take full advantage.

I'm not calling for Marvin's head. In fact, letting him go would be the biggest blunder outside of Bob Huggins being forced out. He may not have improved the defense, but neither has Tony Dungy with the Colts. If anything, Marvin is Brian Billick in reverse. Billick was a brilliant offensive coordinator before he left the Vikings for the Ravens, but his specialty lies in defense.

If anybody should be on the hot seat right now, it should be Bob Bratkowski and his horrendous playcalling.

Bratkowski's play calling was fine. The running play didn't fool the Ravens, perhaps he was thinking he might catch them in a blitz, that's football, constant guessing game. And the Ravens scored 12 points today with their offense, as much as we're picking on the D. The other points came on a short drive and the INT, so I'm not ready to give them the division quite yet. The Bengals have lost 3 of the 4 games by 9 points and they are a few breaks away from having 1 loss. I tend to lose track of that as they sit 4-4.

max venable
11-05-2006, 10:05 PM
NO way! Baltimore will be exposed. They're really not that good a football team.

I totally agree. I've thought that from day one. They've played a nothin' schedule so far.

Strikes Out Looking
11-06-2006, 08:22 AM
My report--

By the time I got to my seat, with less than five minutes off the clock, the Bengals were down 14-0. I was surrounded by Balti-morons, who were a hooting and a hollering for their Browns franchise. My son and I, of course, sat in the wrong seats, and missed spending time with my friend and his family, who was exactly one section over in the correct seats.

The Bengals started to play better after their shaky start. Unfortunately, they let too much time get off the clock in the 2nd and 3rd period on 3 and long when McNair would miraculously dump it to Heap for a first down.

The Ravens didn't really look good on Offense and Jamal Lewis is done. If the Bengals hadn't got themselves in that hole, they'd have won easily. But that's like saying if Adam Dunn had hit five homers in September, the Reds would've won the division. Didn't happen.

Chad Johnson was a non-entity except I noticed that after TJ had his tantrum at the end of the game, it was Johnson who walked with him and calmed him down. I don't know if you saw that on tv.

There were a lot of Bengals fans there (maybe 5,000) out of the 70,000 fans at the game. The Baltimorons gave a good razzing to the Bengals fans after the game. They shouldn't count their chickens.

At halftime they put Peter Boulware in the Ravens Hall of Fame. Art Modell was there. He had to be supported by two people to stand up and then had to be lifted in to a golf cart to be taken out. He doesn't look good at all. I won't be surprised if he is around much longer (he's only a minority ownere of the team now).

And that's my report. I still think the Bengals can win the division--but they have to stop putting themselves in holes and letting the games come down to the end when the officiating may matter.

flyer85
11-06-2006, 10:27 AM
I would say the "character" issue is starting to rear its ugly head, at least by seeing how the game ended and the comments afterward. Marvin better get control of this team or it is over.

redsfanmia
11-06-2006, 11:58 AM
Turn out the lights the party's over.

traderumor
11-06-2006, 11:58 AM
I would say the "character" issue is starting to rear its ugly head, at least by seeing how the game ended and the comments afterward. Marvin better get control of this team or it is over.What comments would those be? Chad wanting the ball in a loss? Yea, that's a new tune. TJ slamming his helmet after another official misses an obvious call? How outrageous! And a quarterback upset with a receiver after a pick when said receiver didn't do what the QB wanted him to do? My goodness, man the lifeboats.

"Character issues" seem to amazingly ebb and flow with wins and losses. Go figure.

flyer85
11-06-2006, 12:50 PM
Character issues rear their head when the going gets tough, not during the good times. Guys with character won't quit and will fight harder to win, guys without it will quit(like Henry did yesterday), or will whine and complain(which is a way of diverting blame to others) and if you have too many non-character guys it will become contagious.

If Marvin does take care of it now, the team will be finished.

traderumor
11-06-2006, 01:29 PM
Character issues rear their head when the going gets tough, not during the good times. Guys with character won't quit and will fight harder to win, guys without it will quit(like Henry did yesterday), or will whine and complain(which is a way of diverting blame to others) and if you have too many non-character guys it will become contagious.

If Marvin does take care of it now, the team will be finished.

Don't forget Henry also caught bombs to get them back in the game two weeks in a row. I assume Palmer was yelling at him for not making a miraculous effort on the hail mary, but if the case, that is not very realistic. The ball was yards over Henry's head and he was not even looking for it yet. For all we know, he was yelling because he did something stupid that caused him to be late getting there.

I hear what you're saying, I just think "character" is a wild card that is pulled out when performances are not resulting in victories. The odd thing about bringing up "character" is that this team was down and out in two straight games but still managed to pull themselves back to getting a shot to win it in the last drive. They've just been unable to do that, but I think the evidence is against the "character" argument at this point. I would see it having some merit if yesterday turned into a blowout because things started out so badly, for an example.

flyer85
11-06-2006, 01:36 PM
I hear what you're saying, I just think "character" is a wild card that is pulled out when performances are not resulting in victories.Character is something that is only on display when the going gets tough, not when things are going well. You never quit, it's why guys like Henry and Randy Moss are losers at heart. They've got incredible talent and ability but when the chips are down and times get tough you can't count on them, that is what character is all about, giving all your effort during desperate times when all seems lost. In the end, you never know when the guys without character are going to quit on you.

It's the reason that the Navy Seals training school puts them through absolute hell, because they want to know if they have high character people who will never break, never quit being a team player. It's not about the whose the best and whose the strongest, it's about exposing character flaws.

traderumor
11-06-2006, 03:14 PM
Character is something that is only on display when the going gets tough, not when things are going well. You never quit, it's why guys like Henry and Randy Moss are losers at heart. They've got incredible talent and ability but when the chips are down and times get tough you can't count on them, that is what character is all about, giving all your effort during desperate times when all seems lost. In the end, you never know when the guys without character are going to quit on you.

It's the reason that the Navy Seals training school puts them through absolute hell, because they want to know if they have high character people who will never break, never quit being a team player. It's not about the whose the best and whose the strongest, it's about exposing character flaws.Except you have not shown any evidence of Henry "quitting" except maybe he shoulda/coulda/woulda done more on the hail mary, yet I showed evidence of two huge 4th Quarter catches that brought the Bengals from out of the game to having a chance two weeks in a row, at a time when the opposing D is defending in a way that it should be the last thing that happens. It seems that you assume because Henry has made some really dumb moves off the field that it is proof enough that he is a "quitter." So, it really comes down to "if only certain guys would try harder." I'm glad the coaches will be taking a different direction in trying to right the ship.

Matt700wlw
11-06-2006, 03:51 PM
Winning 6 out of the next 8 is asking a lot....

flyer85
11-06-2006, 06:12 PM
It seems that you assume because Henry has made some really dumb moves off the field that it is proof enough that he is a "quitter." It proves he has character flaws. Character flaws will manifest themselves when the times get really bad, not the 4th quarter of a close game, which is when Henry made his "big" plays. Character flaws are what cause people to quit when your back is against the wall and things look bad(like the hail mary pass at the end). Why couldn't Henry have just made the effort to make a play? Because Henry had already quit and conceded defeat. That mindset can become an epidemic if not addressed, which Carson did(he didn't quit even thought the situation was bleak).

flyer85
11-06-2006, 06:14 PM
Winning 6 out of the next 8 is asking a lot....you win one at a time and fight as hard as you can each week and see where you end up. Nothing less than that should be acceptable.

WVRed
11-06-2006, 06:49 PM
NO way! Baltimore will be exposed. They're really not that good a football team.

They will be exposed in the first round of the playoffs, which is farther than the Bengals and Steelers will get.

Even if the Ravens do start to lose, we still have to win. Oakland, Pittsburgh(maybe), and Cleveland are about the only two winnable games that we have left.

traderumor
11-06-2006, 06:50 PM
It proves he has character flaws. Character flaws will manifest themselves when the times get really bad, not the 4th quarter of a close game, which is when Henry made his "big" plays. Character flaws are what cause people to quit when your back is against the wall and things look bad(like the hail mary pass at the end). Why couldn't Henry have just made the effort to make a play? Because Henry had already quit and conceded defeat. That mindset can become an epidemic if not addressed, which Carson did(he didn't quit even thought the situation was bleak).Regardless of how many artificial distinctions you create, I wasn't aware that there was a direct correspondence to partying and other unlawful off-field activity and "quitting" in an athletic competition. Honestly, I asked the same question of Henry you did, but "oh, he's a gun-toting, beer drinkin' thug" didn't enter the equation. From what I saw, he wasn't looking back for the ball, so either Palmer threw it too soon or he took too long to get to the spot, or Palmer just plain overthrew him (see 1st Qtr INT and other assorted overthrows the entire game), or he was skipping down the field because he had given up. And Palmer ain't revealing his side of the story.

BTW, maybe Henry was laying back hoping for the DB to tip the ball right to him so he could waltz to the end zone ;) .

guttle11
11-06-2006, 07:21 PM
They will be exposed in the first round of the playoffs, which is farther than the Bengals and Steelers will get.

Even if the Ravens do start to lose, we still have to win. Oakland, Pittsburgh(maybe), and Cleveland are about the only two winnable games that we have left.

That's ridiculous. San Diego isn't really that good, the Saints aren't really that good, Denver's offense is too hit or miss, and Rudi's liable to run for 200+ against the Colts. Baltimore at home? I'll take the Bengals.

They have to play better, that's for sure. If they play well, there's not a team in the league they can't beat.

It's a daunting schedule, but of the remaining teams the Bengals play, they're better than all but maybe two of them when they play the way they are capable of playing. It's put up or shut up time. 4-4. This is the time where champions, and also rans, are made.