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11BarryLarkin11
11-07-2006, 06:20 PM
Anyone else horrified at the thought of Dusty Baker's pitching coach handling Homer Bailey??????


"Reds named Dick Pole pitching coach.
Pole was Dusty Baker's bench coach with the Cubs the last four seasons, but he's served as a pitching coach with five different teams during his lengthy career. It's not exactly an inspired pick for the Reds, but he'll probably get the job done."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20061107&content_id=1736010&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Blimpie
11-07-2006, 06:24 PM
Uhm...nope. Not gonna go there.

Puffy
11-07-2006, 06:24 PM
Brook Jacoby and Dick Pole - color me unimpressed.

Ltlabner
11-07-2006, 06:27 PM
I posted in Live a simular concern with having an ex-Dusty Baker coach around might not be a good thing.

Combine that with Narron's lack of in-game pitching/bullpen management skills....could be u.g.l.y.

That's just my gut reaction to reading the press releases. Maybe this guy is a guru but it will take more info to make a decision.

I had hoped they'd have tapped a guy that most people would say, "ahhhhhh good choice" too. Of course, I have no idea who that would be so my expectations are probably unreasonable.

MartyFan
11-07-2006, 06:27 PM
I'd say that I'll have to look back at the clubs he actually served as Pitching Coah for and not where he was Bench Coach...Anyone know how these teams performed...I'll be looking around on the net but I am not too saavy on where to find this stuff.

Chicago Cubs (1988-91)
San Francisco Giants (1993-97)
Anaheim Angels (1999)
Cleveland Indians (2000-01)
and Montreal Expos (2002).

RedsManRick
11-07-2006, 06:49 PM
Here are those teams' ERA+ (League ERA / Team ERA) for those years. Obviously there are a ton of variables involved here -- just one way to slice it.

Chi 88: 94
Chi 89: 110
Chi 90: 95
Chi 91: 96

SF 93: 107
SF 94: 100
SF 95: 83
SF 96: 87
SF 97: 93

Ana 99: 102

Cle 00: 104
Cle 01: 97

Mon 02: 105

Well, not sure what to make of that exactly. It's a VERY rough measurement, but neither of his two longer stints showed positive trends. I think like batting coaches, you probably are better off judging them in a case-study context specific way.

MartyFan
11-07-2006, 06:54 PM
Here are those teams' ERA+ (League ERA / Team ERA) for those years. Obviously there are a ton of variables involved here -- just one way to slice it.

Chi 88: 94
Chi 89: 110
Chi 90: 95
Chi 91: 96

SF 93: 107
SF 94: 100
SF 95: 83
SF 96: 87
SF 97: 93

Ana 99: 102

Cle 00: 104
Cle 01: 97

Mon 02: 105

Well, not sure what to make of that exactly. It's a VERY rough measurement, but neither of his two longer stints showed positive trends. I think like batting coaches, you probably are better off judging them in a case-study context specific way.

I am really sorry...I don't understand what this means for sure...are the over 100 good or at least better ratings than those below?

M2
11-07-2006, 06:56 PM
Pole's got a decent resume and a great name.

He did pretty well with a kid named Greg Maddux and he made Mitch Williams into a closer. He got one good year out of Mike Harkey, which may have been one more good year than you could have reasonably expected from Harkey. He got John Burkett to step up his game. Billy Swift gave him his career year. Shawn Estes debuted and pitched his best baseball ever under Pole. Kirk Reuter posted his best season ever with Pole as his pitching coach. He put together a damn-fine bullpen in Cleveland and did a real nice job with the Expos too.

IIRC, he instills a lot of confidence in his pitchers. The knock on him is he perhaps rides his better pitchers too hard, but I'd say that's the case with most every pitching coach. Leo Mazzone will put a good workload on a guy who's going well too.

All in all, I think he's a solid hire. Wonder if he's a Narron call or a Krivsky call.

smith288
11-07-2006, 07:05 PM
Dick Pole? Uh... Its not even challenging. WHy Wayne, Why?

MartyFan
11-07-2006, 07:35 PM
Pole's got a decent resume and a great name.

He did pretty well with a kid named Greg Maddux and he made Mitch Williams into a closer. He got one good year out of Mike Harkey, which may have been one more good year than you could have reasonably expected from Harkey. He got John Burkett to step up his game. Billy Swift gave him his career year. Shawn Estes debuted and pitched his best baseball ever under Pole. Kirk Reuter posted his best season ever with Pole as his pitching coach. He put together a damn-fine bullpen in Cleveland and did a real nice job with the Expos too.

IIRC, he instills a lot of confidence in his pitchers. The knock on him is he perhaps rides his better pitchers too hard, but I'd say that's the case with most every pitching coach. Leo Mazzone will put a good workload on a guy who's going well too.

All in all, I think he's a solid hire. Wonder if he's a Narron call or a Krivsky call.

First...thanks for the insight.

Second I wondered the same thing about it being a Krivsky or Narron call.

People I have talked to who actually know people in the organization say that K and Narron are on the same page and there is no division between them...so...take that for what it's worth.

Thanks again.

Marc D
11-07-2006, 07:44 PM
With that name put a mustache on this guy and play 70's porn background music on the PA when he comes out to the mound and you have an effective marketing gimmick that could very well sell a few more tickets this year. ;)

KronoRed
11-07-2006, 08:03 PM
Well this brought me a nice giggle on a bad day.

Wheelhouse
11-07-2006, 08:05 PM
That just can't be his name...it can't.

Matt700wlw
11-07-2006, 08:07 PM
Anyone else horrified at the thought of Dusty Baker's pitching coach handling Homer Bailey??????


"Reds named Dick Pole pitching coach.
Pole was Dusty Baker's bench coach with the Cubs the last four seasons, but he's served as a pitching coach with five different teams during his lengthy career. It's not exactly an inspired pick for the Reds, but he'll probably get the job done."



Bench coach, not pitching coach. It's even in your quote.

RedRoser
11-07-2006, 08:09 PM
Could we just call him Richard? :help:

Redsland
11-07-2006, 08:23 PM
Isn't Dick Pole a screwball guru?

Certainly he knows his way around the rubber.

Work it inside, that's what he'll tell 'em.

He'll help them master their release points, that's for sure.

And teach them how to keep those pop-ups from dropping.

One thing's certain: ain't none of them going to be flying open, if you know what I mean.

The real crime is that he'll be teamed with Brook Jacoby instead of Rusty Kuntz.

:)

CrackerJack
11-07-2006, 08:25 PM
I can't stop snickering at the name. It's snicker-worthy all year round, any time, any place.

Outshined_One
11-07-2006, 08:29 PM
Congrats on hiring the guy with the funniest name in baseball this side of Rusty Kuntz. :D

Blimpie
11-07-2006, 08:34 PM
Congrats on hiring the guy with the funniest name in baseball this side of Rusty Kuntz. :DActually, our pitching coach is not even the best "Dick" name in all of sports.

That, my friends, belongs to Mr. Trickle of auto racing fame.

MrCinatit
11-07-2006, 08:35 PM
Isn't Dick Pole a screwball guru?

Certainly he knows his way around the rubber.

Work it inside, that's what he'll tell 'em.

He'll help them master their release points, that's for sure.

And teach them how to keep those pop-ups from dropping.

One thing's certain: ain't none of them going to be flying open, if you know what I mean.

The real crime is that he'll be teamed with Brook Jacoby instead of Rusty Kuntz.

:)

:notworthy
Thanks. I just had Raison Bran shoot out of my nose.

WVRedsFan
11-07-2006, 09:11 PM
Isn't Dick Pole a screwball guru?

Certainly he knows his way around the rubber.

Work it inside, that's what he'll tell 'em.

He'll help them master their release points, that's for sure.

And teach them how to keep those pop-ups from dropping.

One thing's certain: ain't none of them going to be flying open, if you know what I mean.

The real crime is that he'll be teamed with Brook Jacoby instead of Rusty Kuntz.

:)

Post of the year...

11BarryLarkin11
11-07-2006, 09:17 PM
Bench coach, not pitching coach. It's even in your quote.

Actually, I was referring to the time he spent with the Giants as Dusty's pitching coach (1993-1997).

Virginia Beach Reds
11-07-2006, 09:47 PM
Isn't Dick Pole a screwball guru?

Certainly he knows his way around the rubber.

Work it inside, that's what he'll tell 'em.

He'll help them master their release points, that's for sure.

And teach them how to keep those pop-ups from dropping.

One thing's certain: ain't none of them going to be flying open, if you know what I mean.

The real crime is that he'll be teamed with Brook Jacoby instead of Rusty Kuntz.

:)


That was unbelievable. I need a towel to wipe down the laptop!

StillFunkyB
11-07-2006, 10:15 PM
Wow.

Brook Jacoby, and Dick Pole.

Wee.

StillFunkyB
11-07-2006, 10:16 PM
Isn't Dick Pole a screwball guru?

Certainly he knows his way around the rubber.

Work it inside, that's what he'll tell 'em.

He'll help them master their release points, that's for sure.

And teach them how to keep those pop-ups from dropping.

One thing's certain: ain't none of them going to be flying open, if you know what I mean.

The real crime is that he'll be teamed with Brook Jacoby instead of Rusty Kuntz.

:)

Brilliant!
:beerme:

RedFanAlways1966
11-07-2006, 10:21 PM
Richard Henry Pole played in the 1975 World Series. :eek:

Pitched for the Red Sox. 1 appearance... game 5 (REDS won, 6-2), started the 8th inning. As a matter of fact Dick holds a World Series record... he has the highest ERA in the history of World Series play. His ERA for WS play is infintile. 0 IP, 2 BB, 1 ER.

REDS 8TH: DICK POLE REPLACED WILLOUGHBY (PITCHING); Bench walked; Perez walked [Bench to second]; SEGUI REPLACED POLE (PITCHING); Foster made an out to right [Bench to third]; Concepcion hit a sacrifice fly to right [Bench scored]; Geronimo made an out to center; 1 R, 0 H, 0 E, 1 LOB.

Dick's 6 year (1973-78) pitching career incl. a 25-37 record and 5.05 ERA.

RedsManRick
11-07-2006, 10:43 PM
I am really sorry...I don't understand what this means for sure...are the over 100 good or at least better ratings than those below?

Above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.

MWM
11-07-2006, 10:58 PM
Brilliant, Redsland. Brilliant!

Best post I've seen in months here.

RFS62
11-07-2006, 11:23 PM
Don't forget..... if you see Dick up in the bullpen for longer than four hours, contact a physician.

macro
11-07-2006, 11:40 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/dick_pole_autograph.jpg

SteelSD
11-08-2006, 12:54 AM
The Dick Pole Interview
By: Mark Shelton- mlb.com

11/08/06

Yesterday, the Cincinnati Reds completed their primary coaching staff by hiring Dick Pole as their Pitching Coach. Pole served as the pitching coach of the Chicago Cubs from 1988 to 1991 and was later the Pitching Coach for the San Francisco Giants, Anaheim Angels, and Montreal Expos. Most recently, Pole has served as the Chicago Cubs Bench Coach alongside Dusty Baker. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Mr. Pole today to speak with him about being selected as the Reds’ Pitching Coach.

MS: “Thank’s for joining us, for a little insider action, Dick. Was it difficult for you to come here today considering all the moving and shaking that‘s been going on?”

DP: “Not at all, Mark. Driving in, it did get a little hairy on the way as I almost hit a puss, but when I got down here, I didn’t find entry difficult at all.”

MS: ”We’re very glad to have you on the inside here, Dick. Tell us, was this an exciting time for your family?”

DP: ”Absolutely. This is huge for all of the Poles. And it took a while. We were up all night waiting for the climax.”

MS: ”That’s big, Dick and I again applaud you for coming today. How do you feel you’ll do following Vern Ruhle and Tom Hume in the position?”

DP: ”Obviously, it’s a huge hole, but I feel I’m more than equipped to fill it.”

MS: ”After hearing about your promotion yesterday, did you need a drink or two?

DP: ”Initially, I thought I might be able to use a little lubrication, but after meeting with Wayne Krivsky, I knew it wasn't necessary.”

MS: ”Now, you’ve been credited with helping Greg Maddux. What did you tell him?”

DP: ”I told him to just keep pumping it in there. He’s always been able to pump it hard when he needed to, but as long as you’ve got precise control good things are going to happen.”

MS: ”We’ve all heard rumors of you getting emotional in the past with your pitchers, Dick. How would you respond to that criticism?”

DP: ”I’m hard with my pitchers. If you’re soft, all that means is that the opposition has a better chance to score.”

MS: ”If you were going to give any advice to middle Infielders in order to help your pitchers, what would it be?”

DP: ”You’ve got to be quick to the hole and you’ve got to hit the hole hard repeatedly. If you don’t, you’re just shooting it down your leg.”

MS: ”Now, Dick, one of the Reds’ best prospects is Travis Wood. He’s been cited as a good prospect with nice stuff, but he’s also a bit short. What are your thoughts?

DP: ”Size does matter. But great action can be the key to finishing strong. But I‘ll have to see his stuff to know for sure”

MS: ”Again, thanks for coming today, Mr. Pole, and thank you for your frank answers.”

DP: ”Just glad to have a release after a hard day, Mark.

Topcat
11-08-2006, 12:58 AM
Post of the year...

I second that! Nomination.:notworthy

Jpup
11-08-2006, 02:30 AM
"damn."

RedsBaron
11-08-2006, 06:18 AM
Don't forget..... if you see Dick up in the bullpen for longer than four hours, contact a physician.

Tim Conway: "They say if you have an erection that lasts more than four hours, call your doctor. Hey, if I have an erection that lasts for more than four hours, I'm calling everybody I know."

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 06:58 AM
:laugh:

RFS62
11-08-2006, 07:08 AM
It's gonna be a long year.

Razor Shines
11-08-2006, 08:48 AM
It's gonna be a long year.

I don't know if we'll have enough good jokes to get through the year, we may have just shot our wad a little prematurely, so to speak.

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 08:58 AM
Why has Dick Pole never done a Viagara commercial?

cumberlandreds
11-08-2006, 09:00 AM
Visits to the mound this season by Dick Pole should be sponsored by either Viagra,Cialis,Levitra or Enzyte.

RFS62
11-08-2006, 09:04 AM
I wonder if he's ever heard any of these before?

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 09:06 AM
Can't you just here Georgie saying, "No beatin' around, it's time for the Viagara Dick Pole visit to the mound.:laugh:

Redsland
11-08-2006, 09:13 AM
...This is huge for all of the Poles. And it took a while. We were up all night waiting for the climax.”

MS: ”That’s big, Dick and I again applaud you for coming today. How do you feel you’ll do following Vern Ruhle and Tom Hume in the position?”

DP: ”Obviously, it’s a huge hole, but I feel I’m more than equipped to fill it.”

MS: ”After hearing about your promotion yesterday, did you need a drink or two?

DP: ”Initially, I thought I might be able to use a little lubrication, but after meeting with Wayne Krivsky, I knew it wasn't necessary.”
:laugh:

I kept expecting to see something in there about "chin music." Thanks for showing restraint. :beerme:

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 09:13 AM
Great quote from Jerry Narron in the Enquirer article this AM.


Dick Pole isn't intimidated by anything.

:laugh:

Yachtzee
11-08-2006, 09:24 AM
"Dick Pole calling for another natural male enhancement from the bullpen, sponsored by Enzyte."

edabbs44
11-08-2006, 10:07 AM
Is it me, or is it funny that this thread is a "sticky"?

I remember going through a bunch of old baseball cards years ago and finding the 1976 Topps Pole. I handed it to my father and said "Are his parents kidding me?"

NJReds
11-08-2006, 10:10 AM
Well, Greg Maddux endorses Mr. Pole.


Pole preaches only positive
New Reds pitching coach is fearless

BY JOHN ERARDI | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

Dick Pole, known by future Hall of Famer Greg Maddux as "the best pitching coach I ever had," now has that role with the Reds.

Pole, 56, was introduced to the media Tuesday - Election Day - in a teleconference call. He didn't promise a chicken in every pot but did say there'd be no negative thoughts in any Reds pitcher's head when it came to the home run tendencies of Great American Ball Park.

"As a pitching coach, you try to get them to pitch to the hitter, not to the ballpark," Pole said. "You might do that (avoid a home run at all costs) at certain points in the game, but you don't start out that way."

He said he would not come in with the intention of teaching his pitchers the sinkerball. If somebody already has one, great, but it would be self-defeating for pitchers to think they can't be successful in Great American Ball Park without one, he said.

Pole said he'll work with the repertoires the pitchers have and then after getting to know them and building up some trust, they'll make any necessary adjustments in their approach together.

Asked about the youthfulness of the Reds' staff as a whole, Pole said it is his job to make the youngsters feel as though they belong in the big leagues.

"I don't think it's a good idea for me to come in and say, 'You've got to change this and that,' " he said. "You lose their trust. If you show that you're going to get to learn them, they'll trust you a little more."

Pole pitched for the Boston Red Sox and Seattle Mariners in his six-year big-league career (1973-78). He began his coaching career in the Cubs' farm system in 1983 and was the Cubs' pitching coach from 1988-91.

He was the Giants' pitching coach from 1993-97 and held that same role with the Angels in 1999, Cleveland in 2000-01 and Montreal in 2002. Most recently he was the bench coach for Cubs manager Dusty Baker.

"Dick won't let (Reds pitchers) feel sorry for themselves because they're pitching in a small ballpark," Reds manager Jerry Narron said. "You can't be intimidated (by the ballpark).

"Dick Pole isn't intimidated by anything."

RFS62
11-08-2006, 11:10 AM
"Dick Pole isn't intimidated by anything."


I'm beginning to get a whole "Boy named Sue" vibe out of this. He may have the thickest skin in MLB.

corkedbat
11-08-2006, 11:57 AM
I'm beginning to get a whole "Boy named Sue" vibe out of this. He may have the thickest skin in MLB.

I think, for the sake of propriety, we should refer to him as Richard Shaft.

:D

MartyFan
11-08-2006, 12:17 PM
This thread is a new low for this board...STUPID!!! If I could neg all of you I would.

Roy Tucker
11-08-2006, 12:39 PM
Actually, our pitching coach is not even the best "Dick" name in all of sports.

That, my friends, belongs to Mr. Trickle of auto racing fame.

There is also the guy on the World Anti-Doping committee, Dick Pound.

And from the inadvertent humor department, when this thread was stickied, the title was:

"Sticky: Dick Pole the new pitching coach".

Oi vei.

redsmetz
11-08-2006, 12:48 PM
This thread is a new low for this board...STUPID!!! If I could neg all of you I would.

It has been fairly sophomoric and what's frustating from a Reds fan viewpoint is that not much has been discussed regarding the overall quality of this selection. I was glad to see the article copied about Maddox's view and would have liked to have seen a thorough discussion of what Pole might be able to do for the pitchers as they currently are.

edabbs44
11-08-2006, 01:07 PM
It has been fairly sophomoric and what's frustating from a Reds fan viewpoint is that not much has been discussed regarding the overall quality of this selection. I was glad to see the article copied about Maddox's view and would have liked to have seen a thorough discussion of what Pole might be able to do for the pitchers as they currently are.

I think that it is known what Pole can do for the pitching staff...nothing. Anything short of a miracle would not make the current rotation and bullpen into a playoff-worthy staff. I think the discussion can reach those levels if there are some legit pitchers thrown into the mix. But for now, his name is the most interesting aspect of the pitching staff.

Redsland
11-08-2006, 01:26 PM
It has been fairly sophomoric and what's frustating from a Reds fan viewpoint is that not much has been discussed regarding the overall quality of this selection. I was glad to see the article copied about Maddox's view and would have liked to have seen a thorough discussion of what Pole might be able to do for the pitchers as they currently are.
So start one.

Personally, I've learned plenty from this thread. It has provided quotes from Dick's superiors, quotes from his star pupils, provided his career highlights, detailed the ERA's he's accumulated at his various stops, provided interesting trivia about his pitching career, photos of his baseball cards, given voice to the new coach's philosophy about handling pitchers and about working in a hitters park, and pointed out his knowlegde about the division in general and the Reds in particular.

If after all of that you're still dissatisfied with this thread, the constructive thing to do would have been to offer something of value to it.

westofyou
11-08-2006, 01:28 PM
This thread is a new low for this board...STUPID!!! If I could neg all of you I would.

Oh please save it for drama class.

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 01:37 PM
So start one.

Personally, I've learned plenty from this thread. It has provided quotes from Dick's superiors, quotes from his star pupils, provided his career highlights, detailed the ERA's he's accumulated at his various stops, provided interesting trivia about his pitching career, photos of his baseball cards, given voice to the new coach's philosophy about handling pitchers and about working in a hitters park, and pointed out his knowlegde about the division in general and the Reds in particular.

If after all of that you're still dissatisfied with this thread, the constructive thing to do would have been to offer something of value to it.

Imagine all of that in a sophomoric thread,:beerme:

RFS62
11-08-2006, 01:50 PM
We're just pokin' fun.

:pimp:

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 01:52 PM
We're just pokin' fun.

:pimp:

:laugh:

RANDY IN INDY
11-08-2006, 01:55 PM
Wonder if he knows the proper grip for a splitter?

dabvu2498
11-08-2006, 02:13 PM
Wonder if he knows the proper grip for a splitter?

A good wife joke is the correct response to that post... I'll leave that for someone else.

RedsBaron
11-08-2006, 02:42 PM
Warren Oates as Sgt. Hulka said in "Stripes": "Lighten up Francis." For some reason that quote popped in my head. As RFS said, we're just polkin' fun.

vaticanplum
11-08-2006, 02:45 PM
This thread is a new low for this board...STUPID!!! If I could neg all of you I would.

Dude, not to get totally petty, but you responded to one of my baseball posts the other day by saying "SUPER DUPER!" Not exactly a model of intelligence.

This thread may be silly, but the humor is smart, and there is actually information around if you read it.

texasdave
11-08-2006, 02:51 PM
I was kinda disappointed that the headline in the sports section didn't read something like, 'Pole vaults to the top of Reds' pitching coach candidates'. I don't really know much about the guy's credentials, but I'm hoping it works out. Knock on wood. =)

Puffy
11-08-2006, 03:18 PM
I agree - this is sophomoric and STUPID. Can't we discuss his qualifications??

I found this quote from Gaylord Perry, back when he and Dick Pole were on the same team and before he was a pitching coach.

"Dick Pole knew vaseline. I used to find new ways to try and hide it on my body to throw my version of the spitball, but Dick just put it on the tip. Of his cap, that is. Yeah, Dick showed me how to take the vaseline and really rub it in. He also used to take two balls and cup them in one hand and then work the vaseline into all the crevices, to make it move on its own. Yeah, Dick Pole knew vaseline"

Redsland
11-08-2006, 03:58 PM
This seems like as good a place as any to note that MLB.com recently interviewed Reds pitching prospect and All-Name candidate Jon Coutlangus. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061026&content_id=1724175&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

15fan
11-08-2006, 03:59 PM
If Dick can work his magic with some of the bullpen arms, maybe the Reds can come from behind a little more often next year.

Redsland
11-08-2006, 04:01 PM
They'll have to relax. And concentrate. ;)

TeamCasey
11-08-2006, 04:09 PM
This thread is a new low for this board...STUPID!!! If I could neg all of you I would.

:laugh: For real? This is the sort of silliness we've been missing for awhile. :thumbup:

TeamCasey
11-08-2006, 04:13 PM
They'll have to relax. And concentrate. ;)

Perhaps they should think about baseball. ;)

texasdave
11-08-2006, 04:17 PM
I am just posting this. I don't know who wrote it. The link to this article is at the bottom of the article. I don't know who wrote the column in the Santa Rosa Press-Democrat about the firing of Dick Pole; since the writer refers to himself in the first person, thus injecting himself into the story (not to mention making some fairly irritating statements), I'm guessing Lowell Cohn. If I ever find out, I'll let you know. (Richard says, "It seems pretty well reasoned and written by someone who had some insight into the Giants. In other words, not Cohn.")

In any case, the Mystery Columnist said, "Pole can be stubborn, difficult and abrasive, and these flaws spilled over into the way he treated his pitchers."

This, of course, is something we never heard. I had read just after the firing that Pole had had words with some pitcher -- I can't remember who -- and Brian Johnson (over pitch selection), but that on the whole, the pitchers liked him.

"Pole's personality might not matter with veterans, who feel secure and know the ropes," continues the Mystery Columnist. "It can be devastating with young pitchers like Kirk Rueter and Shawn Estes, who represent the future of the team."

So I'm wondering if that's an exaggeration.

"Pole is often heavy-handed, even brutal, and here's an example. Remember the horrible game Estes had late in the season at San Diego, starting off with 11 straight balls, lasting only 1 2/3 innings, with the Giants losing 12-2? Afterward, thinking he'd hurt the Giants' pennant chances, Estes felt crushed. He tried to atone by offering to pitch on fewer days rest than normal if the team needed him. Told of what Estes had said, Pole turned the color of uncooked beef. 'When he has the pencil and makes out the rotation,' Pole shouted, 'he can give those kind of quotes.' Talk about a silly overreaction."

Really silly. I remember something much more toned down, and not presented as though it was "shouted." In other words, the quote I read at the time had more of a tongue-in-cheek feel -- kind of a "Look, he's not the boss," but in a good-natured way.

"Unfortunately, it was typical of Pole, who did not always show the appropriate tact when dealing with someone like Estes, who is only 24 and had kept the team in the chase all season. When Pole was fired, a general sigh of relief wafted through the organization."

Get us some quotes, Mystery Columnist. The quotes in other papers from pitchers generally suggested surprise and a little sadness, unless you count Estes yelling, "Woo-hoo! U.S.A.! U.S.A.! In your face!"

Okay, he didn't yell that.

Probably.

"The presence of Ron Perranoski made Pole's firing easier," the article continues.

This is probably the Number One Answer.

"Perranoski had been brought in prior to the 1997 season as Dusty Baker's bench coach, to help with strategy. But Perranoski was also a legendary pitching coach, having served with the Dodgers from 1981-1994, and his staffs ranked first or second in earned-run average in the National League nine times."

I tend to think of this as having had the horses, but how much of this is Chavez Ravine, I wonder?

"So he had impeccable credentials. Two things quickly became obvious: 1) He was more flexible than Pole. He could be hard with veterans, gentle with young pitchers, and there was never any danger that he would crush a pitchers ego, or say stupid things like Pole's pencil quote."

That's Mister Pencil Quote to you.

"2) Pole did not have the wisdom or strength of character to seek out Perranoski's opinion. This was not smart."

How do we know this? It's being presented here as though it was a long-term issue, but if it was reported before, I never saw it. Anybody else?

"Pole said something about it when he was let go," said Richard, "so it obviously was a point of discussion during the termination meeting at least."

Okay. I must've missed that part.

"I'm not sure if it is really Dick Pole's responsibility to do this, though. If he had, he could have come under criticism for not being his own man."

Bingo.

"The Giants' press release announcing Pole's fate included an interesting phrase," Cohn or somebody continues. "After the usual polite kiss-off, 'The organization wants to thank Dick for his past contributions,' the release got to the heart of the matter. 'We're looking forward to see how Ron's approach impacts our 1998 team.' The key word is approach, and it implies Perranoski is more flexible, less authoritarian, less one-dimensional than Pole. In other words, he's a better, more patient teacher for a young staff."

here is the link to this article:http://www.eeeeeegp.com/Notes97/Oct97Notes4.html

westofyou
11-08-2006, 04:26 PM
Remember the horrible game Estes had late in the season at San Diego, starting off with 11 straight balls, lasting only 1 2/3 innings, with the Giants losing 12-2?

I do, I also remember when Estes stole a cops Mt Bike as a joke and some other flakey moments from his 97 season.

NJReds
11-08-2006, 05:02 PM
I'm a little concerned about Pole working with young pitchers. When he was in Chicago, Wood always complained about stiffness.

Red Leader
11-08-2006, 05:08 PM
I'm a little concerned about Pole working with young pitchers. When he was in Chicago, Wood always complained about stiffness.

I don't believe Wood's stiffness can be attributed to Dick Pole, IMHO.

Matt700wlw
11-08-2006, 05:08 PM
Actually, I was referring to the time he spent with the Giants as Dusty's pitching coach (1993-1997).

Well, I guess I gots egg on my face :D

Reds Nd2
11-08-2006, 06:08 PM
"Pole's personality might not matter with veterans, who feel secure and know the ropes," continues the Mystery Columnist. "It can be devastating with young pitchers like Kirk Rueter and Shawn Estes, who represent the future of the team."

For some reason this reminded me of an interview I read once. It's not relevent to the discussion, but since I spent half an hour going through back issues of BA to find it, I thought I'd share it here. Sorry, but there is no link, though you might find the article by searching BA for Alan Schwarz' column Going Deep.

Baseball America
Issue 0610 May 8th. 2006 - May 21st 2006


Smoltz: I was the guy who was supposed to win 20 every year and had all the stuff. My biggest problem was nobody ever wanted to teach me pitching -- meaning, every time I would try to learn from them I would have all these people saying, "You're trying to make the game too hard." I don't want to say I was brainwashed, but it was almost pounded into me that, "You just do this and everything else will take care of itself."

Schwarz:When you and I have talked about Leo Mazzone over the years, John, I've sensed you being a little restrained.

Smoltz:There's nobody in the game that's helped me more than he has. He resurrected my career. I came from an orginization where I was running around aimlessly. He helped direct me.
But Leo wasn't a guy that was going to teach pitching. He was not going to teach you how to get hitters out. What he was going to do is help you throw your best possible pitch every single time. Whether it was the intimidation from Leo indirectly or the personality of feeling like you might be humiliated if you didn't perform very well, (that's why) the Jason Schmidts, the Odalis Perezes, the guys who went everywhere else, they're going to flourish. Jason Marquis. Those are guys early on, they couldn't handle the expectations of following us and being in the mix and dealing with Leo's expectations.

MartyFan
11-08-2006, 06:51 PM
Dude, not to get totally petty, but you responded to one of my baseball posts the other day by saying "SUPER DUPER!" Not exactly a model of intelligence.

This thread may be silly, but the humor is smart, and there is actually information around if you read it.

This isn't funny. It's not intelligent. It's vulgar.

I can filter out the junk that is said here but seems to me there were people who during the season went to great pains to remind us that sometimes kids make there way to this board to actually learn something about baseball and to be cautious about the pictures that were being posted...I don't see why words would be any different.

WestOfYou...as for your drama comment...BITE ME!

Reds Nd2
11-08-2006, 06:53 PM
Well, not sure what to make of that exactly. It's a VERY rough measurement, but neither of his two longer stints showed positive trends. I think like batting coaches, you probably are better off judging them in a case-study context specific way.

Here are both the numbers you provided along with ERA for the seasons he was pitching coach as well as two seasons prior and two seasons post Dick Pole to see if there are any trends. Did he dramatically improve the teams under his charge or did he make them worse? As you've noted, these are just rough measures and I'm not sure we can glean anything usefull from the data. I'd be really interested in seeing the teams dERA prior, during, and post Dick Pole but I couldn't find that info anywhere.

Rank = League Rank for ERA.
Bolded numbers are the two seasons before and after Pole.

Team Season ERA+ ERA Rank
CHI 1986 90 4.49 12th
CHI 1987 94 4.55 11th
CHI 1988 94 3.84 10th
CHI 1989 110 3.43 6th
CHI 1990 95 4.34 11th
CHI 1991 96 4.03 12TH
CHI 1992 106 3.39 5th
CHI 1993 99 4.18 10th*

SFG 1991 89 4.03 12th
SFG 1992 91 3.61 9th
SFG 1993 107 3.61 5th
SFG 1994 100 3.99 6th
SFG 1995 83 4.86 13th
SFG 1996 87 4.72 13th
SFG 1997 93 4.41 9th
SFG 1998 97 4.19 7th**
SFG 1999 87 4.71 10th

ANA 1997 101 4.52 5th
ANA 1998 105 4.49 6th
ANA 1999 102 4.79 5th
ANA 2000 99 5.00 9th
ANA 2001 113 4.20 5th

CLE 1998 108 4.45 5th
CLE 1999 102 4.90 6th
CLE 2000 104 4.84 7th
CLE 2001 97 4.64 9th
CLE 2002 92 4.91 10th
CLE 2003 101 4.21 5th

*League expanded to 14 teams in 1993.
**League expanded to 16 teams in 1998.

Ltlabner
11-08-2006, 07:00 PM
What concern should one have that the teams ERA dropped (and in some cases considerbly) in league standing at least in one year of his later years with each team?

Can any conclusions from the data be drawn from that? (ie. Pole had an ill effect on the staff) or are the vagueries of ERA, injuries, player trades, not to mention what is happening on other teams enough to obscure the picture?

guttle11
11-08-2006, 07:12 PM
This isn't funny. It's not intelligent. It's vulgar.

I can filter out the junk that is said here but seems to me there were people who during the season went to great pains to remind us that sometimes kids make there way to this board to actually learn something about baseball and to be cautious about the pictures that were being posted...I don't see why words would be any different.

WestOfYou...as for your drama comment...BITE ME!

I agree.

As far as Dick Pole goes, I just hope he can figure out which buttons to push and tinker with the right knobs. You don't want him poking and prodding his way into areas he doesn't belong.

Reds Nd2
11-08-2006, 07:16 PM
What concern should one have that the teams ERA dropped (and in some cases considerbly) in league standing at least in one year of his later years with each team?

Can any conclusions from the data be drawn from that? (ie. Pole had an ill effect on the staff) or are the vagueries of ERA, injuries, player trades, not to mention what is happening on other teams enough to obscure the picture?

I wouldn't be too concerned because of the reasons you mentioned. I only posted the rank because I had it handy and thought someone might be interested in seeing it. Check out this example:


SFG 1992 91 3.61 9th
SFG 1993 107 3.61 5th

Same ERA, but a league rank vastly different in back to back seasons.

TeamCasey
11-08-2006, 07:35 PM
This isn't funny. It's not intelligent. It's vulgar.

I'm sorry I laughed at your post. I really thought you were being funny in a sarcastic sort of way.

Mario-Rijo
11-08-2006, 07:41 PM
I will admit I laughed several times and I could not help it, in a way it seems like we sometimes are too tough on ourselves about what we can and cannot say and a play on words is borderline in this instance.

However MartyFan although a bit blunt with his opinion is right, we need to practice what we preach. What say we just move on?

OnBaseMachine
11-08-2006, 07:46 PM
I hope Dick Pole and Coutlangus get together and work on that spit ball.

gm
11-08-2006, 07:48 PM
Congrats on hiring the guy with the funniest name in baseball this side of Rusty Kuntz. :D

He better hope the Reds don't sign Stubby Clapp

(I feel so dirty)

Blimpie
11-08-2006, 08:07 PM
Well, I guess I gots egg on my face :D....that's not egg.....(eeehhww!)

vaticanplum
11-08-2006, 08:36 PM
This isn't funny. It's not intelligent. It's vulgar.

I can filter out the junk that is said here but seems to me there were people who during the season went to great pains to remind us that sometimes kids make there way to this board to actually learn something about baseball and to be cautious about the pictures that were being posted...I don't see why words would be any different.

WestOfYou...as for your drama comment...BITE ME!

This is far different from pictures. Nobody is going to understand this who doesn't already understand it, if you understand my point. And I beg to differ, it takes a great deal of intelligence to achieve the subtle touch prominent in this thread.

I would defer to the moderators if it came to that, but I personally far prefer a bit of humor to personal attacks. No one's forcing you here. If you're that concerned, you can pull out at any time.

Caveat Emperor
11-08-2006, 08:38 PM
What concern should one have that the teams ERA dropped (and in some cases considerbly) in league standing at least in one year of his later years with each team?

Maybe Dick suffers from a lack of stamina and gets tired after too many times working on the same people.

This switch of position may help.

Falls City Beer
11-08-2006, 08:45 PM
Wonder if Dick ever had a run-in with ED?

http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/eric_davis_reds80s_pose.jpg

vaticanplum
11-08-2006, 08:55 PM
Wonder if Dick ever had a run-in with ED?

If Pole is as tough as it's rumored, I almost wish that he had. ED did have all those physical problems. Had Pole met him at his peak, he might have been able to help ED keep it up.

RedFanAlways1966
11-08-2006, 09:21 PM
Bio of the new pitching coach
http://www.answers.com/topic/dick-pole

Dick Pole
Richard Henry Pole (b. October 13, 1950 in Trout Creek, Michigan) is a former Major League Baseball player and current Major League Baseball coach. A right-handed pitcher, Pole was 6'3" tall and weighed 210 pounds during his playing career.

Playing career
After attending Northern Michigan University, Pole signed with the Boston Red Sox as an amateur free agent. He quickly developed into a top pitching prospect. With Class AAA Pawtucket in 1973, his 2.03 Earned Run Average and 158 strikeouts led the International League. That same year, he pitched a no-hitter against Peninsula.

Pole made his major league debut on August 3, 1973, starting the second game of a doubleheader against the Baltimore Orioles. He surrendered six runs in 3 2/3 innings pitched and received the loss, as the Orioles won 8-2. He remained with the team, and spent the next four seasons moving between the rotation and the bullpen for the Red Sox.

Pole's career was nearly ended by an injury during a game against the Orioles on June 30, 1975, when a line drive by Tony Muser struck him in the face. The ball had been hit so hard that it bounced into foul territory near third base, scoring two runs on the play. Pole sustained a broken jaw and damage to the retina of his right eye. The damaged eye never fully recovered, and he ultimately lost 90 percent of the vision in that eye.

Pole recovered from his injuries in time to pitch in the 1975 World Series, walking the only two batters he faced in a 6-2 loss to the Cincinnati Reds in Game 5. The Red Sox ultimately lost the series in seven games.

At the end of the 1976 season, Pole became one of the inaugural members of the Seattle Mariners franchise, as they selected him from the Red Sox with the seventh pick in the 1976 expansion draft. Pole spent 1977 and 1978 with the Mariners, but his performance was not up to the standard he had set in Boston, possibly due to effects from the injury. His most memorable moment with Seattle came on August 5, 1977, when he surrendered Reggie Jackson's 300th career home run. On March 24, 1979, Pole was released.

Pole ended his time in the majors with 25 wins, 37 losses, one save, and a 5.05 ERA in 122 games pitched and 531 innings. After the end of his major league career, he continued to play professionally in Mexico.

Coaching career
Pole is currently the bench coach for the Chicago Cubs. He began his coaching career in the Cubs' minor league system in 1983, and joined their major league coaching staff in 1998, working as pitching coach for Don Zimmer. Pole remained in that capacity through 1991, during which time he oversaw the development of Greg Maddux.

Pole returned to his roots as pitching coach for the Pawtucket Red Sox in 1992, then spent 1993-1997 on the coaching staff of the San Francisco Giants, under Dusty Baker. Pole next worked as bullpen coach for Boston in 1998. After that, he was pitching coach for the Anaheim Angels in 1999, for the Cleveland Indians from 2000-2001, and for the Montreal Expos in 2002. He re-joined the coaching staff of the Cubs in 2003, and has remained there since.

OldRightHander
11-09-2006, 12:07 AM
You all must be pretty hard up for a laugh to be making some of the jokes I've seen in this thread. You should be ashamed.

paintmered
11-09-2006, 12:35 AM
This isn't funny. It's not intelligent. It's vulgar.

I can filter out the junk that is said here but seems to me there were people who during the season went to great pains to remind us that sometimes kids make there way to this board to actually learn something about baseball and to be cautious about the pictures that were being posted...I don't see why words would be any different.

WestOfYou...as for your drama comment...BITE ME!

First off, take a deep breath and relax. Second, I want these verbal jabs between you and WOY to be taken private before it escalates further.

vaticanplum
11-09-2006, 07:34 AM
You all must be pretty hard up for a laugh to be making some of the jokes I've seen in this thread. You should be ashamed.

Oh for crying out loud, if you don't like it that's fine, but please don't tell me what in my life should or shouldn't cause me shame.

Enough, I'm out.

919191
11-09-2006, 08:33 AM
In the spirit of the thread. look on the main page near the bottom on "Today
s Birthdays". Check out the second name today.



Happy Birthday, Balls!


:birthday: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday: :all_cohol :all_cohol :all_cohol :all_cohol :all_cohol :all_cohol :all_cohol

Roy Tucker
11-09-2006, 08:46 AM
You all must be pretty hard up for a laugh to be making some of the jokes I've seen in this thread. You should be ashamed.

I look at it this way. Everyone has to exorcise all of their stupid Dick Pole jokes (including me :) ), we'll get it all out of our system, it will eventually run its course, and then we'll be able to say "Dick Pole" without smirking and be able to move on. At least I will.

However, at the dinner table last night, I brought up the topic of the Reds new pitching coach. When I said his name, my wife (who doesn't like toilet humor in the slightest) almost did a spit take with her milk, laughed, and said "you're kidding me, right?". And my daughters blushed.

Cedric
11-09-2006, 08:50 AM
My favorite baseball name of all time was Dickie Thon.

I have no idea why.

Redsland
11-09-2006, 09:20 AM
Dear Company I.T. Guy;

The Reds just hired a new pitching coach, and I'd like to learn more about him.

Is it okay if I google his name?

- Redsland

westofyou
11-09-2006, 09:25 AM
First off, take a deep breath and relax. Second, I want these verbal jabs between you and WOY to be taken private before it escalates further.

Don't worry about me, I find a lovely irony in that he wants me to bite him.

Nothing vulgar about that at all.

RANDY IN INDY
11-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Was thinkin' the same thing when I read it.

traderumor
11-09-2006, 02:44 PM
Wonder if Dick ever had a run-in with ED?

http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/eric_davis_reds80s_pose.jpgApparently, Eric was a switch hitter.

OldRightHander
11-09-2006, 06:17 PM
Oh for crying out loud, if you don't like it that's fine, but please don't tell me what in my life should or shouldn't cause me shame.

Enough, I'm out.

Ok, apparently my attempt at humor was just a bit too subtle. I give up. :confused:

vaticanplum
11-09-2006, 06:39 PM
Ok, apparently my attempt at humor was just a bit too subtle. I give up. :confused:

I read it pre-coffee. I am sorry. I extend to you an olive branch. So to speak.

wheels
11-09-2006, 07:27 PM
I read it pre-coffee. I am sorry. I extend to you an olive branch. So to speak.

The new pitching coach could probably....extend.....more than you.

Okay, car crash me.

klw
11-10-2006, 06:04 PM
Dear Company I.T. Guy;

The Reds just hired a new pitching coach, and I'd like to learn more about him.

Is it okay if I google his name?

- Redsland

Dear Redsland
It is fine for you to google him but do not do a google images search.
Company I.T. Guy

Yachtzee
11-10-2006, 08:03 PM
Dear Company I.T. Guy;

The Reds just hired a new pitching coach, and I'd like to learn more about him.

Is it okay if I google his name?

- Redsland

Only if you practice Safe Searching.

Hubba
11-11-2006, 02:47 PM
The new pitching coach could probably....extend.....more than you.

Okay, car crash me.And you would like that.

redsmetz
11-12-2006, 07:23 AM
Dear Company I.T. Guy;

The Reds just hired a new pitching coach, and I'd like to learn more about him.

Is it okay if I google his name?

- Redsland

Okay so I just Googled him (and was sure to add "Pitching" to my search!) and actually found this from Answers.com, the history of him as a coach. It contained a more extensive bit from Greg Maddux which I found of interest. Obviously it hasn't been updated yet. The link is at

http://www.answers.com/topic/dick-pole


Pole is currently the bench coach for the Chicago Cubs. He began his coaching career in the Cubs' minor league system in 1983, and joined their major league coaching staff in 1998, working as pitching coach for Don Zimmer. Pole remained in that capacity through 1991, during which time he oversaw the development of Greg Maddux.

Maddux credits Pole as a major influence, and a significant contributor to his success. In a 2005 interview, he said, "I remember when Dick Pole told me one day, ‘Why don’t you stop trying to strike guys out? Just try to get them out, and you’ll probably strike out just as many guys, if not more. He was right. I’ve always tried with two strikes just to make a pitch and get the guy out. You get a lot of strikeouts just on accident."[5]

Pole returned to his roots as pitching coach for the Pawtucket Red Sox in 1992, then spent 1993-1997 on the coaching staff of the San Francisco Giants, under Dusty Baker. Pole next worked as bullpen coach for Boston in 1998. After that, he was pitching coach for the Anaheim Angels in 1999, for the Cleveland Indians from 2000-2001, and for the Montreal Expos in 2002. He re-joined the coaching staff of the Cubs in 2003, and has remained there since.[6]

Of course it also has this item under Personal Notes - I guess we're not alone.


Pole's name is often treated in humorous fashion by sports columnists and pundits,[7][8][9] due to the implicit sexual innuendo.

GAC
11-12-2006, 07:55 AM
I heard he was a distant cousin to Jack Arute. ;)

Redsland
11-13-2006, 09:40 AM
Dick Pole, in addition to being a good pitching coach, is also a good bench jockey. He's known as a master baiter.

MrCinatit
11-13-2006, 09:53 AM
Dear Redsland
It is fine for you to google him but do not do a google images search.
Company I.T. Guy

Curiosity killed the cat. I had to do it.
The first three or so pictures were something like this:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2752/dickpoleautographop3.jpg

I will not repost some of the other pictures. I will just say a fine-tipped marker was not shown in those other shots.