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redsfan4445
11-12-2006, 12:49 PM
per Yahoo
"Baseball players who have filed for free agency

November 12, 2006

The following are players who have filed for free agency, their
2006 teams, positions and date they filed:

AMERICAN LEAGUE
===============

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
-----------------------------
Darin Erstad, OF October 28
Adam Kennedy, 2B October 29
J.C. Romero, LHP October 28

Baltimore Orioles
-----------------
Bruce Chen, LHP October 31
Chris Gomez, SS October 28
LaTroy Hawkins, RHP October 30
Kevin Millar, 1B October 30
Russ Ortiz, RHP October 28
Fernando Tatis, DH/3B November 2
Chris Widger, C October 29

Boston Red Sox
--------------
Alex Cora, SS October 31
Keith Foulke, RHP November 10
Alex Gonzalez, SS October 30
Gabe Kapler, OF October 29
Mark Loretta, 2B October 30
Doug Mirabelli, C October 28
Trot Nixon, OF OCtober 29

Chicago White Sox
-----------------
Sandy Alomar, C October 28
Dustin Hermanson, RHP November 2
Jeff Nelson, RHP October 31
David Riske, RHP October 28

Cleveland Indians
-----------------
Aaron Boone, 3B October 30
Lou Merloni, 2B October 30

Detroit Tigers
--------------
Sean Casey, 1B October 31
Troy Percival, RHP November 2
Matt Stairs, OF October 30
Jamie Walker, LHP October 30

Kansas City Royals
------------------
Paul Bako, C October 30
Doug Mientkiewicz, 1B October 28
Mark Redman, LHP November 2

Minnesota Twins
---------------
Phil Nevin, 1B October 29
Brad Radke, RHP November 6
Shannon Stewart, OF October 28
Rondell White, DH October 28

New York Yankees
----------------
Miguel Cairo, IF October 28
Octavio Dotel, RHP October 28
Mike Mussina, RHP November 11
Tanyon Sturtze, RHP October 30
Ron Villone, LHP October 31
Bernie Williams, OF October 31
Craig Wilson, 1B October 28
Jaret Wright, RHP November 11

Oakland Athletics
-----------------
Steve Karsay, RHP November 10
Jay Payton, OF October 29
Frank Thomas, DH October 28
Barry Zito, LHP October 31

Seattle Mariners
----------------
Gil Meche, RHP October 28
Eduardo Perez, 1B November 3

Tampa Bay Devil Rays
--------------------
Brian Meadows, RHP November 7
Tomas O. Perez, 3B October 30

Texas Rangers
-------------
Rod Barajas, C October 28
Mark De Rosa, OF October 28
Adam Eaton, RHP October 28
Carlos Lee, OF October 30
Gary Matthews Jr., OF October 29
Vicente Padilla, RHP October 30
Kip Wells, RHP November 6
Eric Young, 2B October 28

Toronto Blue Jays
-----------------
Frank Catalanotto, OF October 28
Ted Lilly, LHP October 28
Bengie Molina, C October 31
Justin Speier, RHP October 28
Gregg Zaun, C October 30


NATIONAL LEAGUE
===============

Arizona Diamondbacks
--------------------
Miguel Batista, RHP October 30
Craig Counsell, SS October 30
Damion Easley, SS October 30
Luis Gonzalez, 1B October 28
Brian Jordan, OF October 31

Atlanta Braves
--------------
Danys Baez, RHP October 28
Todd Pratt, C October 28
John C. Thomson, RHP October 28
Daryle Ward, 1B October 28

Chicago Cubs
------------
Henry Blanco, C October 29
John S. Mabry, 1B October 31
Wade Miller, RHP October 30
Juan Pierre, OF October 29
Aramis Ramirez, 3B October 30
Kerry Wood, RHP October 29

Cincinnati Reds
---------------
Rich Aurilia, 3B October 31
Royce Clayton, SS October 28
Ryan Franklin, RHP October 30
Eddie Guardado, LHP October 31
Todd Hollandsworth, OF October 29
Jason Johnson, RHP October 28
Kent Mercker, LHP November 2
Scott Schoeneweis, LHP October 31
Dave Weathers, RHP October 28
*-Paul Wilson, RHP October 30

Colorado Rockies
----------------
Vinny Castilla, 3B November 11
Mike DeJean, RHP November 2
*-Ray King, LHP October 28
Tom Martin, LHP October 29
Kaz Matsui, 2B October 31
Jose Mesa, RHP November 1

Florida Marlins
---------------
Joe Borowski, RHP October 29
Wes Helms, 3B October 28
Matt Herges, RHP October 28
Brian Moehler, RHP October 28

Houston Astros
--------------
Jeff Bagwell, 1B November 11
Roger Clemens, RHP November 6
Aubrey Huff, 3B October 28
Andy Pettitte, LHP November 6
Russ Springer, RHP October 30

Los Angeles Dodgers
-------------------
Einar Diaz, C October 30
J.D. Drew, OF November 10
*-Eric Gagne, RHP October 31
Nomar Garciaparra, 1B October 28
Kenny Lofton, OF November 2
Julio Lugo, SS October 28
Greg Maddux, RHP October 31
Ramon E. Martinez, RHP October 28
Aaron Sele, RHP October 30

Milwaukee Brewers
-----------------
David Bell, 3B October 30
Jeff Cirillo, 3B October 28
Tony Graffanino, 2B October 28
Rick Helling, RHP October 30
Daniel Kolb, RHP October 31
Tomo Ohka, RHP October 28

New York Mets
-------------
Chad Bradford, RHP October 30
Michael DiFelice, C November 8
Cliff Floyd, OF October 28
*-Tom Glavine, LHP November 9
Orlando Hernandez, RHP October 28
Roberto Hernandez, RHP October 30
*-Yusaku Iriki, RHP October 30
Ricky Ledee, OF October 28
Guillermo Mota, RHP October 30
Darren Oliver, LHP October 31
Steve Trachsel, RHP October 28
Michael Tucker, OF October 29
Jose Valentin, 2B October 29
Chris Woodward, 2B October 28

Philadelphia Phillies
---------------------
David Dellucci, OF November 2
Aaron Fultz, LHP October 28
Alex S. Gonzalez, 3B November 6
Jose A. Hernandez, SS October 31
Mike Lieberthal, C October 28
Arthur Rhodes, LHP October 28
Rick White, RHP October 28
Randy Wolf, LHP October 28

Pittsburgh Pirates
------------------
Jeromy Burnitz, OF November 6
Joe Randa, 3B October 29

St. Louis Cardinals
-------------------
Ron Belliard, 2B October 30
Gary Bennett, C October 29
*-Jim Edmonds, OF November 2
Jason Marquis, RHP October 30
Mark Mulder, RHP November 2
Scott Spiezio, 3B October 30
Jeff Suppan, RHP November 1
Jose Vizcaino, SS October 30
Jeff Weaver, RHP October 31
Preston Wilson, OF November 3

San Diego Padres
----------------
Geoff Blum, 3B October 28
Doug Brocail, RHP October 30
Alan Embree, LHP October 29
Shawn Estes, LHP October 28
Sterling Hitchcock, LHP November 10
Chan Ho Park, RHP October 31
Ryan Klesko, OF November 1
Mike Piazza, C November 2
David Roberts, OF October 28
Rudy Seanez, RHP October 28
Todd Walker, 2B October 28
David Wells, LHP November 9
Woody Williams, RHP October 30

San Francisco Giants
--------------------
Moises Alou, OF October 29
Barry Bonds, OF October 28
Ray Durham, 2B October 30
Pedro Feliz, 3B November 1
Steve Finley, OF November 2
Todd Greene, C October 29
Shea Hillenbrand, 1B October 28
Steve Kline, LHP October 29
Jason Schmidt, RHP October 29
Mike Stanton, LHP October 28
Jamey Wright, RHP November 2


Washington Nationals
--------------------
Tony Armas Jr, RHP October 29
Robert Fick, C October 30
Jose Guillen, OF October 30
Ramon Ortiz, RHP November 1
Alfonso Soriano, OF October 29

* -- Provisional election pending resolution of club option on
player's contract


Updated on Sunday, Nov

Shaknb8k
11-12-2006, 04:48 PM
any way we could use this as like an official FA tracking thread? Maybe a sticky and some people can constantly keep it upgraded with the latest signings throughout MLB?

redsfanfalcon
11-12-2006, 04:52 PM
Aramis Ramirez agreed to a 5 year contract with the Cubs today. Kerry Wood also agreed to a 1 year deal.

Natty Redlocks
11-12-2006, 08:49 PM
I'm pretty sure Percival, Radke, Alex S. Gonzalez, and Randa have retired. Bagwell and Mercker probably too, last I heard.

Rex Argos
11-12-2006, 08:51 PM
Natty, where's the song about the free agent list? I'm disappointed!

Highlifeman21
11-12-2006, 09:27 PM
There's 1 definite I wish we'd re-sign: Scott Schoeneweis

There's 1 maybe we should re-sign for the right price: Rich Aurilia

As for the rest of the list available, these are the guys I'd like us to realistically pursue:

Mark Loretta
Doug Mientkiewicz
Shannon Stewart
Octavio Dotel
Gary Matthews Jr.
Frank Catalanotto
Justin Speier
Danys Baez
Wes Helms
Tomo Ohka
Chad Bradford
David Dellucci
Todd Walker
Tony Armas Jr

Unfortunately, that's only 6 pitchers and 8 position players. Obviously we won't sign all of this list, therefore, if I had to really narrow from this list, I'd go with....

Octavio Dotel
Justin Speier
Chad Bradford
Tony Armas Jr
Frank Catalanotto
David Dellucci

There's my 6. I guarantee we're a much better team if Krivsky goes after these guys. Unfortunately, he won't. So now we're all stuck until Opening Day waiting to see how our 2007 Reds look like.

RedLegSuperStar
11-12-2006, 10:02 PM
If Jaret Wright filed for Free Agency on November 10th... how was he dealt to Baltimore for Chris Britton?

Natty Redlocks
11-12-2006, 10:55 PM
Natty, where's the song about the free agent list? I'm disappointed!


Barry Zito, Rick Ledee, Jason Schmidt, Carlos Lee
Mark DeRosa, Mark Loretta, Catalanotto

Lieberthal, Hermanson, Todd Walker, Trot Nixon
Phil Nevin, Craig Wilson, J.C. Romero

We didn't sign the Speier
Now we need a closer cause Rheal's a hoser

I give up I'm goin to bed

mth123
11-13-2006, 06:00 AM
If Jaret Wright filed for Free Agency on November 10th... how was he dealt to Baltimore for Chris Britton?

Yankees had a $7 Million option with a $4 Million Buyout. The Yankees had a deadline date to decide that was after the Free Agency filing period ended. Wright filed in case the Yankee chose the buyout.

The Yankees figured they were on the hook for $4 Million anyway so they exercised the option and included that $4 Million in the deal to trade Wright.

So Baltimore traded a guy who will be 24 next year and in 53+ innings put up an ERA of 3.35 with a HR Rate/9 of .67 a K Rate/9 of 6.88 and a Walk rate/9 of 2.85 for the right to have a run of the mill RH starter who isn't much if any better than what they have and they still pay $3 Million.

The Reds should be shopping Kyle Lohse to fill other holes. They'll get something decent IMO.

RedLegSuperStar
11-13-2006, 06:53 AM
Yankees had a $7 Million option with a $4 Million Buyout. The Yankees had a deadline date to decide that was after the Free Agency filing period ended. Wright filed in case the Yankee chose the buyout.

The Yankees figured they were on the hook for $4 Million anyway so they exercised the option and included that $4 Million in the deal to trade Wright.

So Baltimore traded a guy who will be 24 next year and in 53+ innings put up an ERA of 3.35 with a HR Rate/9 of .67 a K Rate/9 of 6.88 and a Walk rate/9 of 2.85 for the right to have a run of the mill RH starter who isn't much if any better than what they have and they still pay $3 Million.

The Reds should be shopping Kyle Lohse to fill other holes. They'll get something decent IMO.

Thanks mth

Rex Argos
11-13-2006, 09:40 AM
Barry Zito, Rick Ledee, Jason Schmidt, Carlos Lee
Mark DeRosa, Mark Loretta, Catalanotto

Lieberthal, Hermanson, Todd Walker, Trot Nixon
Phil Nevin, Craig Wilson, J.C. Romero

We didn't sign the Speier
Now we need a closer cause Rheal's a hoser

I give up I'm goin to bed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/media/Simon_Cowell.jpg

What would Simon say?

Handofdeath
11-13-2006, 01:58 PM
If I'm the Reds this would be my lineup

C-David Ross
1B-Scott Hatteburg
2B-Adam Kennedy
SS-Brandon Phillips
3B-Edwin Encarnacion
RF-Ken Griffey
CF-Juan Pierre
LF-Adam Dunn

1. Aaron Harang
2. Bronson Arroyo
3. Ted Lilly
4. Tomo Ohka
5. Eric Milton

Closer Danyz Baez

I put this together under the assumption that there would be no trades. Which I know there will be but if they can't get anything done these are good cost effective signings.

Highlifeman21
11-13-2006, 04:49 PM
If I'm the Reds this would be my lineup

C-David Ross
1B-Scott Hatteburg
2B-Adam Kennedy
SS-Brandon Phillips
3B-Edwin Encarnacion
RF-Ken Griffey
CF-Juan Pierre
LF-Adam Dunn

1. Aaron Harang
2. Bronson Arroyo
3. Ted Lilly
4. Tomo Ohka
5. Eric Milton

Closer Danyz Baez

I put this together under the assumption that there would be no trades. Which I know there will be but if they can't get anything done these are good cost effective signings.

I have to respectfully disagree with these 3. Adam Kennedy is a no stick not much more glove 2B, Juan Pierre is an all glove no stick low OBP lead off man, and Ted Lilly will end up being Eric Milton revisited for us. We're gonna spend way too much money and hardly get any return on our investment. IMO, Tomo Ohka is a better option for #3 than Ted Lilly. He's gonna cost us less, and might actually offer better production.

Johnny Footstool
11-13-2006, 05:33 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=26761
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=26760

Pure speculation, but Rotoworld.com envisions Ted Lilly signing with the Dodgers for 4 years, $30 million.

They have the Reds signing Joe Borowski as closer for 2 years and $10 million.

They also speculate that the Reds will fill their middle infield void with the venerable Jose Valentin. A good guy to have, but hardly a prototypical Krivsky player.

Highlifeman21
11-13-2006, 05:56 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=26761
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=26760

Pure speculation, but Rotoworld.com envisions Ted Lilly signing with the Dodgers for 4 years, $30 million.

They have the Reds signing Joe Borowski as closer for 2 years and $10 million.

They also speculate that the Reds will fill their middle infield void with the venerable Jose Valentin. A good guy to have, but hardly a prototypical Krivsky player.

5M a year for a closer not worth 5M a year. If LaRue's behind the plate, that'll give us a 10M battery. Phenomenal.

Handofdeath
11-13-2006, 06:42 PM
I have to respectfully disagree with these 3. Adam Kennedy is a no stick not much more glove 2B, Juan Pierre is an all glove no stick low OBP lead off man, and Ted Lilly will end up being Eric Milton revisited for us. We're gonna spend way too much money and hardly get any return on our investment. IMO, Tomo Ohka is a better option for #3 than Ted Lilly. He's gonna cost us less, and might actually offer better production.

I would sign Adam Kennedy because he's a solid bat and glove. Just average with both. But, one of the main reasons I would sign him is that World Series ring on his finger. He knows what it takes to win. Successful teams need that. I'm not just looking at stats here. I'm looking at intangibles. I'm looking to put pieces together. The Yankees have been playing Fantasy Baseball for the last few years and look where it's got them? The other options out there aren't too much better. Juan Pierre? Same thing. World Series ring with the Marlins. And as far as having no stick, guess who had over 200 hits this season? He's had over 200 hits four times. Lifetime average .303. Lifetime OBP .350. He's a great base stealer and he never strikes out. On top of that, he's one of the best sacrifice hitters in the bigs. There's your #2 hitter right there. The pitchers? Well, I'm just plugging holes really. By that I mean I'm trying to put together a good staff. The Reds need a #3 and 4 starter. We agree on Ohka and disagree on Lilly. I wouldn't mind going after a Padilla or Suppan but I don't see paying that much for a #3 or 4. Milton is bad enough. I might just take my chances on Lohse at the #4 spot though.

Johnny Footstool
11-13-2006, 11:22 PM
I would sign Adam Kennedy because he's a solid bat and glove. Just average with both. But, one of the main reasons I would sign him is that World Series ring on his finger. He knows what it takes to win.

Yeah -- play on a team that has everything go its way.

His ring sure helped the Angels last season, didn't it?


Successful teams need that. I'm not just looking at stats here. I'm looking at intangibles. I'm looking to put pieces together. The Yankees have been playing Fantasy Baseball for the last few years and look where it's got them?

Hundreds of wins and several playoff appearances. Sucks to be them.


The other options out there aren't too much better. Juan Pierre? Same thing. World Series ring with the Marlins. And as far as having no stick, guess who had over 200 hits this season? He's had over 200 hits four times. Lifetime average .303. Lifetime OBP .350. He's a great base stealer and he never strikes out. On top of that, he's one of the best sacrifice hitters in the bigs. There's your #2 hitter right there.

Yep. He worked wonders for the Cubs last season.


The pitchers? Well, I'm just plugging holes really. By that I mean I'm trying to put together a good staff. The Reds need a #3 and 4 starter. We agree on Ohka and disagree on Lilly. I wouldn't mind going after a Padilla or Suppan but I don't see paying that much for a #3 or 4. Milton is bad enough. I might just take my chances on Lohse at the #4 spot though.

Surprisingly, I agree with you here.

Highlifeman21
11-14-2006, 10:16 AM
I would sign Adam Kennedy because he's a solid bat and glove. Just average with both. But, one of the main reasons I would sign him is that World Series ring on his finger. He knows what it takes to win. Successful teams need that. I'm not just looking at stats here. I'm looking at intangibles. I'm looking to put pieces together. The Yankees have been playing Fantasy Baseball for the last few years and look where it's got them? The other options out there aren't too much better. Juan Pierre? Same thing. World Series ring with the Marlins. And as far as having no stick, guess who had over 200 hits this season? He's had over 200 hits four times. Lifetime average .303. Lifetime OBP .350. He's a great base stealer and he never strikes out. On top of that, he's one of the best sacrifice hitters in the bigs. There's your #2 hitter right there. The pitchers? Well, I'm just plugging holes really. By that I mean I'm trying to put together a good staff. The Reds need a #3 and 4 starter. We agree on Ohka and disagree on Lilly. I wouldn't mind going after a Padilla or Suppan but I don't see paying that much for a #3 or 4. Milton is bad enough. I might just take my chances on Lohse at the #4 spot though.

Jerry Narron, is that you?


He knows what it takes to win.

If that's the main reason you want Adam Kennedy, count me out.


Juan Pierre? Same thing. World Series ring with the Marlins. And as far as having no stick, guess who had over 200 hits this season? He's had over 200 hits four times. Lifetime average .303. Lifetime OBP .350. He's a great base stealer and he never strikes out. On top of that, he's one of the best sacrifice hitters in the bigs. There's your #2 hitter right there.

Juan Pierre Juan Pierre Juan Pierre. This is the same Juan Pierre that stunk up the joint for the Cubs last year, right? Where'd that World Series ring get him? He doesn't walk enough, and his OBP is way too BA driven. Why on earth would we want one of the best sacrifice hitters in the bigs? Where's the logic in that, especially in the 1 or 2 hole? Those guys need to avoid outs and acquire bases, not look acquire outs and avoid bases, which is exactly the idea behind the sacrifice. Again, I'll pass on Juan Pierre. IMO we have a much better in house option named Chris Denorfia.


-----------------------

As for the pitching problem facing our Reds, We might as well try and go out and get a bunch of #4 type guys and rotate them thru the 3-5 spot. Unfortunately, Milton will be in that rotation due to his wonderful contract, and Lohse will probably be in the same boat. The unknown will be Brandon Claussen and how he'll rehab. So, that leaves us 3 guys in that 3 man spot, but we all know at least one of them will fail, and fail hard. That means we need to go out and get another option, and I'm board with you about Ohka. I think he'd be a great addition for the Reds in that 3-5 spot. I'm still very concerned about the type of contract Ted Lilly will command in the FA market, and as we've seen the Reds overpay for players in the past, I want to see that trend end.

Handofdeath
11-14-2006, 02:55 PM
Jerry Narron, is that you?



If that's the main reason you want Adam Kennedy, count me out.



Juan Pierre Juan Pierre Juan Pierre. This is the same Juan Pierre that stunk up the joint for the Cubs last year, right? Where'd that World Series ring get him? He doesn't walk enough, and his OBP is way too BA driven. Why on earth would we want one of the best sacrifice hitters in the bigs? Where's the logic in that, especially in the 1 or 2 hole? Those guys need to avoid outs and acquire bases, not look acquire outs and avoid bases, which is exactly the idea behind the sacrifice. Again, I'll pass on Juan Pierre. IMO we have a much better in house option named Chris Denorfia.


-----------------------

As for the pitching problem facing our Reds, We might as well try and go out and get a bunch of #4 type guys and rotate them thru the 3-5 spot. Unfortunately, Milton will be in that rotation due to his wonderful contract, and Lohse will probably be in the same boat. The unknown will be Brandon Claussen and how he'll rehab. So, that leaves us 3 guys in that 3 man spot, but we all know at least one of them will fail, and fail hard. That means we need to go out and get another option, and I'm board with you about Ohka. I think he'd be a great addition for the Reds in that 3-5 spot. I'm still very concerned about the type of contract Ted Lilly will command in the FA market, and as we've seen the Reds overpay for players in the past, I want to see that trend end.

Well, if I'm not mistaken that one ring that Kennedy has is one more than the entire 25 man Reds roster combined. Same with Pierre. Last I heard it's awful hard to repeat as champion in any sport. I guess it was their fault. No need to sign them then. Let's talk about Pierre for a moment though. 2006 was his first season with the Cubs. The Cubs were the worst team in the NL this season. And yet Mr. Pierre scored 87 runs. The first time in 6 seasons he had less than 90. That would put him 2nd on the Reds this season. He was 7th on the team in OBP and yet only Aramis Ramirez had more runs. He's had over 100 runs scored three times. Are they still keeping score nowadays or do they just count the number of walks each team has at the end of the game? He's had over 200 hits four times. He's never in a full season had less than 170. He's had over 40 stolen bases six straight seasons. If I'm not mistaken hits and stolen bases "avoid outs and acquire bases." OBP too AVG oriented? Well, no. Lifetime OBP .350, lifetime AVG .303. And the sacrifice? Well, lets step away from the stats for a moment and go to a real, live game. Leadoff hitter Freel goes to the plate and draws a walk. Walks are good right? Well, we want Freel to get closer to the plate so he can score a run. Should he swing away? He could because he gets lots of hits. But the other team might also catch it and the result could even result in two outs. So, instead Pierre lays down a bunt and even though its close he's thrown out at first base. But, in the process the bunt was good enough for Freel to "acquire a base" and wind up in scoring position. The situation is now 1 out with a runner in scoring position and your three best hitters coming up to the plate. See what I'm talking about? Are you feeling me? Oh sure, he might not get a walk and have runners on 1st and 2nd. But he also might hit a single which would do the same thing or even put Freel at third. Or consider the possibility of a double? He had 32 of those last season. That could possibly put two runners in scoring position. Hell, let's even consider a triple. He's been 1st or 2nd in the league the last three seasons. That would mean that Pierre was on third base and Freel scored a run. That is good right? Did I also mention that Pierre hasn't missed a game since 2002? A good hitting and fast CF with great defense who plays every game? Yes Reds fans some players still do that. Just something for you to consider.

mth123
11-14-2006, 10:12 PM
The best thing about Pierre is that he plays every day. He did have 204 hits last year. But even with 204 Hits his OBP was .330 (and .326 the year before that). He is way overpriced because he steals bases, but steals add little in the way of actual run production and add a lot of risk. He was caught 20 times. Take a guy with a .330 OBP and then have him get thrown out 20 times stealing and that is a lot of outs made in your lead-off spot. Take those 20 times on base away because he was thrown out and that leaves an adjusted OBP of .303. He's likely to start slowing down and pulling stuff when he hits 30 in a couple years.

If I could get him for Hatteberg money, I'd love to have him. At his likely $25 Million+ for 4 years or so. No thanks.

Will M
11-14-2006, 10:32 PM
I don't like Pierre for the exact reasons mth123 points out.

Plus i don't see why we need Pierre. Dunn in LF. Deno in CF. Griffey in RF vs righties. Freel in RF vs lefties. Freel fills in 2-3 times a week at 2b,3b,CF & LF.

We need ( to compete for a playoff spot):
2b or SS
Righty hitter who can play 1b
Upgrade at 3# SP
someone who can close

- Will

Highlifeman21
11-14-2006, 11:14 PM
Well, if I'm not mistaken that one ring that Kennedy has is one more than the entire 25 man Reds roster combined. Same with Pierre. Last I heard it's awful hard to repeat as champion in any sport. I guess it was their fault. No need to sign them then. Let's talk about Pierre for a moment though. 2006 was his first season with the Cubs. The Cubs were the worst team in the NL this season. And yet Mr. Pierre scored 87 runs. The first time in 6 seasons he had less than 90. That would put him 2nd on the Reds this season. He was 7th on the team in OBP and yet only Aramis Ramirez had more runs. He's had over 100 runs scored three times. Are they still keeping score nowadays or do they just count the number of walks each team has at the end of the game? He's had over 200 hits four times. He's never in a full season had less than 170. He's had over 40 stolen bases six straight seasons. If I'm not mistaken hits and stolen bases "avoid outs and acquire bases." OBP too AVG oriented? Well, no. Lifetime OBP .350, lifetime AVG .303. And the sacrifice? Well, lets step away from the stats for a moment and go to a real, live game. Leadoff hitter Freel goes to the plate and draws a walk. Walks are good right? Well, we want Freel to get closer to the plate so he can score a run. Should he swing away? He could because he gets lots of hits. But the other team might also catch it and the result could even result in two outs. So, instead Pierre lays down a bunt and even though its close he's thrown out at first base. But, in the process the bunt was good enough for Freel to "acquire a base" and wind up in scoring position. The situation is now 1 out with a runner in scoring position and your three best hitters coming up to the plate. See what I'm talking about? Are you feeling me? Oh sure, he might not get a walk and have runners on 1st and 2nd. But he also might hit a single which would do the same thing or even put Freel at third. Or consider the possibility of a double? He had 32 of those last season. That could possibly put two runners in scoring position. Hell, let's even consider a triple. He's been 1st or 2nd in the league the last three seasons. That would mean that Pierre was on third base and Freel scored a run. That is good right? Did I also mention that Pierre hasn't missed a game since 2002? A good hitting and fast CF with great defense who plays every game? Yes Reds fans some players still do that. Just something for you to consider.

Ok, so we've established a couple of things here.

1. You like Adam Kennedy b/c he has a World Series ring. That's it.
2. You hate walks.
3. You love hits.
4. You hate OBP.
5. You love BA.
6. You have extreme manlove for Juan Pierre b/c he meets numbers 2-5, AND he has a World Series ring.
7. You overvalue stolen bases.


For the record, a career BA of .303 and only a career OBP of .350 is downright horrible, especially for a guy who makes his living in the 1 and 2 spots. Paying that same guy money to sacrifice the leadoff guy to the next base is also an extreme case of smallball, not to mention also another monumental waste of money.

I've wasted time considering all you've had to say in this thread, and in the overrated skill thread where you've made quite the fool of yourself trying to defend your ridiculous position that walks are bad and don't lead to run production. It's time for you to consider some better baseball perspectives.

Handofdeath
11-15-2006, 08:29 PM
Ok, so we've established a couple of things here.

1. You like Adam Kennedy b/c he has a World Series ring. That's it.
2. You hate walks.
3. You love hits.
4. You hate OBP.
5. You love BA.
6. You have extreme manlove for Juan Pierre b/c he meets numbers 2-5, AND he has a World Series ring.
7. You overvalue stolen bases.


For the record, a career BA of .303 and only a career OBP of .350 is downright horrible, especially for a guy who makes his living in the 1 and 2 spots. Paying that same guy money to sacrifice the leadoff guy to the next base is also an extreme case of smallball, not to mention also another monumental waste of money.

I've wasted time considering all you've had to say in this thread, and in the overrated skill thread where you've made quite the fool of yourself trying to defend your ridiculous position that walks are bad and don't lead to run production. It's time for you to consider some better baseball perspectives.

Show me anywhere in the post that said I hated walks or OBP. Better yet, show me in ANY of my posts where I have said that. If you do, if you can show me and Redszone that I have, I'll quit this board. Have I said that they are overrated? Yes. But did I even imply that I hated them? No. Have I ever implied that? No. Did I say that they don't lead to run production? No. Have I ever? No. Have I ever tried to say that walks don't necessarily guarantee run production? Yes. The 2006 Reds are an example. But if you have ever read any of my posts, and from the looks of it you haven't , you would know that I don't believe in absolutes when it comes to looking at stats. Tendencies may be there, but there are no absolutes. I have theories just like you do. They are my opinions and I'm entitled to them. Just like you are to yours. There are only two things that have EVER been proven on this board. One, that there are Reds fans out there on the internet. Two, that some of them can type.

Highlifeman21
11-15-2006, 09:17 PM
Show me anywhere in the post that said I hated walks or OBP. Better yet, show me in ANY of my posts where I have said that. If you do, if you can show me and Redszone that I have, I'll quit this board. Have I said that they are overrated? Yes. But did I even imply that I hated them? No. Have I ever implied that? No. Did I say that they don't lead to run production? No. Have I ever? No. Have I ever tried to say that walks don't necessarily guarantee run production? Yes. The 2006 Reds are an example. But if you have ever read any of my posts, and from the looks of it you haven't , you would know that I don't believe in absolutes when it comes to looking at stats. Tendencies may be there, but there are no absolutes. I have theories just like you do. They are my opinions and I'm entitled to them. Just like you are to yours. There are only two things that have EVER been proven on this board. One, that there are Reds fans out there on the internet. Two, that some of them can type.

Ask and you shall receive.


The ability to take a walk. That was in regards to the most over-rated skill in baseball. Followed up by your H. Caray humor....


Ah yes! I had forgotten. I do fondly recall watching one Harry Caray singing Take Me Out to the Ballgame during the 7th inning stretch on WGN. It never failed to inspire me. The sheer alcohol-induced joy on his face. It was a beautiful sight watching him slur his way through that song every home game. Of course, the topper was at the end when he would shout " Let's acquire some bases! "

And then you only agree walks are good when....


they are accompanied by timely hitting

Which is very tonque in cheek agreeing at such a simple concept: walks ARE good.

Then you completely go loco and try and prove AVG has better correlation to Runs than OBP. Pure madness....


These are the top ten MLB teams in runs scored
1. Yankees
2. Indians
3. White Sox
4. Phillies
5. Braves
6. Rangers
7. Mets
8. Tigers
9. Red Sox
10. Dodgers

1.The Yankees finished 3rd in BB and 1st in OBP.
2.The Indians finished 3rd in OBP and did not finish in the Top 10 in BB.
3.The White Sox finished 8th in OBP and did not finish in the Top 10 in BB.
4.The Phillies finished 4th in BB and 6th in OBP.
5.The Braves did not finish in the Top 10 in either category.
6.The Rangers did not finish in the Top 10 in either category.
7.The Mets did not finish in the Top 10 in either category.
8.The Tigers did not finish in the Top 10 in either category
9.The Red Sox finished 1st in BB's and 2nd in OBP.
10.The Dodgers finished 6th in BB and 4th in OBP

Sabermatricians take note, your system has just been proven flawed. Runs are what wins games. There is no direct correlation between runs scored and BB/OBP. Of the 10 teams with the most runs scored, 6 are in the Top 10 in OBP and 6 are in the Top 10 in AVG. There are 5 teams in both Top Ten lists. There are certain tendencies but no absolutes. You cannot treat Sabermetrics as law. Those of you who do, read the above.

So now you're going to put foot in mouth and cling to the misconception that AVG has a higher correlation to Runs than OBP.... Wouldn't ya know, 4 people quickly show the fallacy in your logic. RedsManRick even attaches a very well researched chart to debunk your myth. But correlation doesn't equal causation, right? So you come back with this trash....


No, no, no I don't want to hear about "runs", I'm talking about runs. Something a team actually does. I appreciate that you and others went to the trouble to get stats to support your argument. And I would like to clarify my points. I was answering a post touting the virtue of the walk and OBP. I showed proof that there was no direct correlation between BB's, OBP, and runs scored. Yes, I used only one year's data and that was half the point. There are many, many people on Redszone who treat a walk and OBP as something sacred. They have certain ideas in their mind as to what the baseball laws are as far as results go. I showed them not to be laws. There are certain tendencies but no absolutes here. To pass them off as anything else is simply wrong. The team who has the highest OPS each year does not always score the most runs. The team with the highest OBP doesn't always win the most games. WOY's own chart showed that. ( That was a good read btw.) I would like to go back to OPS for a moment. I never mentioned it in my previous posting and TRF didn't mention it in his but others did later. Did you know that Toronto finished 2nd in MLB this year in OPS? Did you also know that they finished 12th in runs scored? Why? Shouldn't they be 2nd or at least somewhere in the Top 5? Baseball stats and mathematics are great. Baseball stats and philosophy go great together. But, what we are left with in the end are the results and even that doesn't tell the whole truth. Does the fact that Ted Williams have 200 less homers than Ruth make him a lesser hitter? Who's better? We don't know. We know that Ryan Howard had the most home runs. We know that Aaron Harang had the most strikeouts. We know that the Reds won 80 games this season. Beyond that it is all opinion and your own philosophy. Yes, RedsManRick I do understand what you are saying but it is your opinion. Cherish it because it is yours, but no one should pass their opinions off to me or anyone else as law.

OBP is a better indicator to find correlation for Runs than AVG. It's been proven. TRF did a great job of showing you that, yet you continue to believe otherwise.


I don't discount them. Just as I don't put 100% stock in the tremendous strikeout totals. BUT they have to be seen as part of the big picture. I know of another player in the NL who walked over 100 times this past season and had 181 K's but he's going to be MVP. If the Reds are going to pay 7-10 million a year for Dunn then he is going to have to be putting the ball in play. They don't pay him that much so he can stand on 1st base watching somebody else try to do what they are paying him to do. He's not being paid so the Reds can sit him down and lecture him in the middle of a pennant race about his work habits. And he is certainly not being paid more each year for his numbers to go down each year. He's being paid to hit and to hit well.

Here's where you contradict yourself. You DO discount walks. You offer a Dunn to Howard comparison, which is apples and oranges. Howard hits for higher average and walks FAR less than Dunn. If Dunn hit for over .300, his OBP would easily eclipse Howard's, but Dunn will never hit for over .300, therefore we need to not discount the value of his walks, as they are the basis of his run production/creation, as well as his OBP. I think my favorite part of this post was where you said we don't pay him to stand on 1st base. As long as he acquires bases and avoid outs, I don't care how he does it. Walk, hit, HBP. Get on base, avoid outs. Yet you only prefer the hit method of that equation.

-----
I'll concede that you've never used the word hate in regards to OBP or walks, but you definitely prefer different, less accurate metrics to player worth/value.

To recap....


Have I said that they are overrated? Yes. But did I even imply that I hated them? No. Have I ever implied that?

You've implied all over the board that you hate walks. To refute this point is futile.

I've read plenty, and now reread all of your posts, and I have a firm grasp on your "opinions".

Handofdeath
11-15-2006, 10:05 PM
Ask and you shall receive.

That was in regards to the most over-rated skill in baseball. Followed up by your H. Caray humor....



And then you only agree walks are good when....



Which is very tonque in cheek agreeing at such a simple concept: walks ARE good.

Then you completely go loco and try and prove AVG has better correlation to Runs than OBP. Pure madness....



So now you're going to put foot in mouth and cling to the misconception that AVG has a higher correlation to Runs than OBP.... Wouldn't ya know, 4 people quickly show the fallacy in your logic. RedsManRick even attaches a very well researched chart to debunk your myth. But correlation doesn't equal causation, right? So you come back with this trash....



OBP is a better indicator to find correlation for Runs than AVG. It's been proven. TRF did a great job of showing you that, yet you continue to believe otherwise.



Here's where you contradict yourself. You DO discount walks. You offer a Dunn to Howard comparison, which is apples and oranges. Howard hits for higher average and walks FAR less than Dunn. If Dunn hit for over .300, his OBP would easily eclipse Howard's, but Dunn will never hit for over .300, therefore we need to not discount the value of his walks, as they are the basis of his run production/creation, as well as his OBP. I think my favorite part of this post was where you said we don't pay him to stand on 1st base. As long as he acquires bases and avoid outs, I don't care how he does it. Walk, hit, HBP. Get on base, avoid outs. Yet you only prefer the hit method of that equation.

-----
I'll concede that you've never used the word hate in regards to OBP or walks, but you definitely prefer different, less accurate metrics to player worth/value.

To recap....



You've implied all over the board that you hate walks. To refute this point is futile.

I've read plenty, and now reread all of your posts, and I have a firm grasp on your "opinions".

Nice try but no dice.

1. I simply said the ability to take a walk was overrated. I gave my opinion.
2. I believe walks are good especially when they accompanied by timely hitting. If a player takes a walk and no one hits him in, then the result is a guy running from first back to the dugout. The walk was good the final result was not. Walks are good, runs are better. My opinion.
3. The Harry Caray comment was aimed at the crowd that says the goal of baseball is to "acquire bases and avoid outs." I believe that runs are the final measuring stick of a game's result. How you get there, well then that's another story. My opinion.
4. The numbers I put out were purely aimed at making this point. If Team A has more walks than Team B, it doesn't necessarily mean that Team A will have more runs. My opinion. I put numbers out there that I believe support my position. Never once did I imply that a walk was bad.
5. I do prefer the hit method. I believe it is preferable to a walk. A walk will always do, but a hit is better. My opinion.
6. As far Adam Dunn not being paid to stand on 1st base, I believe that to be true. I believe he is being paid a good amount to hit and hit well. If he gets plenty of walks along the way then great. The new hitting coach said himself that Adam Dunn strikes out too much. He didn't quantify that with "but he gets on base a lot so it's okay." Make the case if you want for or against Dunn but he is on the block. The Reds wouldn't have him on the block if there weren't questions about his abilities and results as a player within the organization. As a hitter his M.O. is getting on base via the walk or hitting a homer. That's what he is known for and he is damn good at both but the Reds aren't satisfied with that. If they were they would have him signed long term by now. Again, my opinion.
7. "I'll concede that you've never used the word hate in regards to OBP or walks, but you definitely prefer different, less accurate metrics to player worth/value." I appreciate you stating the obvious. I believe if I prefer "different, less accurate metrics" then that is my opinion. I'm sorry that you don't agree with my opinions. If you don't agree, then too bad. I'm going to state my opinions and give evidence that I think supports them. Agree or disagree, it's up to you. But don't put words in my mouth or make half baked assumptions simply because I'm not drinking the same flavor of Kool-Aid that you like.

Patrick Bateman
11-15-2006, 10:27 PM
I believe that runs are the final measuring stick of a game's result. How you get there, well then that's another story.

This is the whole point.

Finding the best way to "get there". People on this thread have tried to find the best method to correlate to runs. In other words, finding the best way to get there.

As an example it's a proven fact that OPS will lead to more runs scored than batting average will. A player that gets on base a lot and acquires the most bases, will on average lead to more runs. After that, it doesn't really how you get on base and acquire the bases. The players that combines power and the ability to get on base will create more runs whether they bat .200 with 200 walks, or if they hit .350 with 20 walks (assuming the same OPS or RC/27).

As you said, there are no guarantees, however, you can put yourself in the best position to score runs by getting on base and hitting for power. Hits, walks, they are all good, it's the players that can combine all of those things together that are most successful in the long run.

Highlifeman21
11-15-2006, 11:08 PM
Nice try but no dice.

1. I simply said the ability to take a walk was overrated. I gave my opinion.
2. I believe walks are good especially when they accompanied by timely hitting. If a player takes a walk and no one hits him in, then the result is a guy running from first back to the dugout. The walk was good the final result was not. Walks are good, runs are better. My opinion.
3. The Harry Caray comment was aimed at the crowd that says the goal of baseball is to "acquire bases and avoid outs." I believe that runs are the final measuring stick of a game's result. How you get there, well then that's another story. My opinion.
4. The numbers I put out were purely aimed at making this point. If Team A has more walks than Team B, it doesn't necessarily mean that Team A will have more runs. My opinion. I put numbers out there that I believe support my position. Never once did I imply that a walk was bad.
5. I do prefer the hit method. I believe it is preferable to a walk. A walk will always do, but a hit is better. My opinion.
6. As far Adam Dunn not being paid to stand on 1st base, I believe that to be true. I believe he is being paid a good amount to hit and hit well. If he gets plenty of walks along the way then great. The new hitting coach said himself that Adam Dunn strikes out too much. He didn't quantify that with "but he gets on base a lot so it's okay." Make the case if you want for or against Dunn but he is on the block. The Reds wouldn't have him on the block if there weren't questions about his abilities and results as a player within the organization. As a hitter his M.O. is getting on base via the walk or hitting a homer. That's what he is known for and he is damn good at both but the Reds aren't satisfied with that. If they were they would have him signed long term by now. Again, my opinion.
7. "I'll concede that you've never used the word hate in regards to OBP or walks, but you definitely prefer different, less accurate metrics to player worth/value." I appreciate you stating the obvious. I believe if I prefer "different, less accurate metrics" then that is my opinion. I'm sorry that you don't agree with my opinions. If you don't agree, then too bad. I'm going to state my opinions and give evidence that I think supports them. Agree or disagree, it's up to you. But don't put words in my mouth or make half baked assumptions simply because I'm not drinking the same flavor of Kool-Aid that you like.


Asking for clarification...

Why are walks so overrated? Is taking a walk an easy task? Why are some players better at taking walks than others?

How can any player control the timeliness of hits? Is this to say that any player can go to the plate and have 100% certainty over the outcome of the AB concerning a hit?

Do you not score runs by avoiding outs and acquiring bases? Maybe there are other ways to score runs that the "avoid outs and acquire bases crowd" are missing. Please enlighten us.

Why is a hit better than a walk? Again, I'm asking you to clarify your opinion/position.

Why make Adam Dunn out to be something he never was and never will be? He's a high strikeout, high OBP player. He hits HR. He actually scores runs and drives people in. Maybe not as many as you, and others on this board want, but you can't honestly tell me he doesn't do both.

What do you believe is the best way to correlate Runs? Most think it's a process of walks lead to higher OBP lead to run. How about you? More timely hitting? What's your flavor of Kool Aid?

Handofdeath
11-16-2006, 02:40 PM
Asking for clarification...

Why are walks so overrated? Is taking a walk an easy task? Why are some players better at taking walks than others?

How can any player control the timeliness of hits? Is this to say that any player can go to the plate and have 100% certainty over the outcome of the AB concerning a hit?

Do you not score runs by avoiding outs and acquiring bases? Maybe there are other ways to score runs that the "avoid outs and acquire bases crowd" are missing. Please enlighten us.

Why is a hit better than a walk? Again, I'm asking you to clarify your opinion/position.

Why make Adam Dunn out to be something he never was and never will be? He's a high strikeout, high OBP player. He hits HR. He actually scores runs and drives people in. Maybe not as many as you, and others on this board want, but you can't honestly tell me he doesn't do both.

What do you believe is the best way to correlate Runs? Most think it's a process of walks lead to higher OBP lead to run. How about you? More timely hitting? What's your flavor of Kool Aid?

Actually my favorite flavor is fruit punch. But I'll be more than happy to clarify my position(s). I did not mean to short change Adam Dunn's run totals or his RBI's. I simply pointed out the two things as a hitter he was best at. Despite his stats taking a nose dive over the last few seasons he still hits homers and takes a lot of walks. The rankings bear that out.
Now about my position on walks. The evidence shows me that more BB's do not necessarily mean more runs for a team. But, and I say this with no reservation, OPS totals do. Teams with the highest OPS totals invariably score the most runs. The highest OPS total won't necessarily result in the most runs, but you'll get pretty damn close. Now, OPS combines the OBP and SLG. So, if high walk totals do not necessarily translate to high run totals then something else must combine with the walks to raise the OBP. Then, you have to add the OBP to the SLG. Which is total bases divided by the OFFICIAL at bats. No walks count in SLG. The more hits, especially extra base hits, the higher your SLG will be. The higher your SLG, the higher the OPS will be. What does all this mean? Successful teams are putting the bat on the ball. The numbers may vary as far as walks go. The type of hits may vary also. A team may hit a lot of homers or play small ball. There are several variables but success as an offense depends more on hitting than the ability to take a walk. Let's go back to Adam Dunn for a moment as an example. He's still hitting the same number of home runs he always has. He's still getting the same number of walks. The RBI's and runs aren't that much different either. He struck out as many times in his most successful season as he did this season. Why has his OPS dropped 100 points over the last two seasons? He's not hitting as well as he did in 2004. His OBP is down despite the same number of walks and so is his SLG.

Now as far as the BB vs hit argument TRF gave an example of a 10 pitch walk being better than a single. If it is at the beginning of a game,or perhaps a closer has just been brought into the game I would agree to a point. At the beginning of a game seeing more pitches from a pitcher is a good thing. You see what he's got stuff-wise and you run up the pitch count. That is especially good in the case of a closer coming in. But that would only be the case if there was no one on base. If there is anyone on base, the result of a hit far outweighs the result of a walk. A walk can only advance the runners one base, and that is only when the bases are loaded or there is a runner on first. Even a single is capable of doing more than that. If a runner is in scoring position, a hit of any kind has the potential to bring the runner home. A walk leaves the runner where he's at. Even if a single equaled a walk, a walk is certainly a lesser result than a double, triple, or home run.
I most certainly believe that a combination of OBP and SLG is essential to a team's offensive success. A team that walks a lot does not necessarily mean they will score plenty of runs. I think the stats bear that out. But a team that does hit well without the high walk totals can. Why? The hitting would count not just towards the OBP, but the SLG as well. This drives the OPS number up. The walk can only count towards the OBP, therefore it is limited in it's capacity to affect the OPS. Ergo, a hit is better than a walk IMO.

EddieMilner
11-16-2006, 03:23 PM
Ask and you shall receive.

That was in regards to the most over-rated skill in baseball. Followed up by your H. Caray humor....



And then you only agree walks are good when....



Which is very tonque in cheek agreeing at such a simple concept: walks ARE good.

Then you completely go loco and try and prove AVG has better correlation to Runs than OBP. Pure madness....



So now you're going to put foot in mouth and cling to the misconception that AVG has a higher correlation to Runs than OBP.... Wouldn't ya know, 4 people quickly show the fallacy in your logic. RedsManRick even attaches a very well researched chart to debunk your myth. But correlation doesn't equal causation, right? So you come back with this trash....



OBP is a better indicator to find correlation for Runs than AVG. It's been proven. TRF did a great job of showing you that, yet you continue to believe otherwise.



Here's where you contradict yourself. You DO discount walks. You offer a Dunn to Howard comparison, which is apples and oranges. Howard hits for higher average and walks FAR less than Dunn. If Dunn hit for over .300, his OBP would easily eclipse Howard's, but Dunn will never hit for over .300, therefore we need to not discount the value of his walks, as they are the basis of his run production/creation, as well as his OBP. I think my favorite part of this post was where you said we don't pay him to stand on 1st base. As long as he acquires bases and avoid outs, I don't care how he does it. Walk, hit, HBP. Get on base, avoid outs. Yet you only prefer the hit method of that equation.

-----
I'll concede that you've never used the word hate in regards to OBP or walks, but you definitely prefer different, less accurate metrics to player worth/value.

To recap....



You've implied all over the board that you hate walks. To refute this point is futile.

I've read plenty, and now reread all of your posts, and I have a firm grasp on your "opinions".


what the hell does highlife man do with this life to have this much time. This is pathetic. All this argument proves is the following:
1. some people on Redszone have arguments like little girls.
2. some people think they are really smart because they have a membership to BP and they read moneyball.
3. while Moneyball is an interesting read and a new way to look at an old game, there is one Major thing. The A's haven't won a WS with this method.*
*this wasn't proven, just my own opinion.

If all we want at the end of the day is for the Reds to make the playoffs then thats sad. The point of the season isn't to be one of the best 8, but to be the best. I want WK to build a team that can win all the way from March - October, not one that can't make it in October. Don't get me wrong, I think moneyball has some amazing points, but in the post season its about taking risks. Its about scoring when you have the oppurtunity. Its about sacrificing, bunthing, stealing bases, defense, and all other things that make small ball amazing. Its about manufacturing runs.

RedLegSuperStar
11-16-2006, 03:51 PM
Righty hitter who can play 1b

Javy Valentin?

Why do we need a 1st baseman..let alone a righthanded hitting one? We have Hatteberg, Javy and maybe Votto (depends on type of spring)

BRM
11-16-2006, 03:53 PM
Javy Valentin?

Why do we need a 1st baseman..let alone a righthanded hitting one? We have Hatteberg, Javy and maybe Votto (depends on type of spring)

Javy Valentin is terrible as a right-handed hitter. I don't think many people would consider him a legitimate option at 1B either.

RedLegSuperStar
11-16-2006, 04:05 PM
Javy Valentin is terrible as a right-handed hitter. I don't think many people would consider him a legitimate option at 1B either.

I guess what I was getting at is they're higher needs for the Reds then 1st base

BRM
11-16-2006, 04:10 PM
I guess what I was getting at is they're higher needs for the Reds then 1st base

That's true. However, I would still like to see a RH hitting 1B to platoon with Hat if one can be found.

Highlifeman21
11-16-2006, 05:47 PM
what the hell does highlife man do with this life to have this much time. This is pathetic. All this argument proves is the following:
1. some people on Redszone have arguments like little girls.
2. some people think they are really smart because they have a membership to BP and they read moneyball.
3. while Moneyball is an interesting read and a new way to look at an old game, there is one Major thing. The A's haven't won a WS with this method.*
*this wasn't proven, just my own opinion.

If all we want at the end of the day is for the Reds to make the playoffs then thats sad. The point of the season isn't to be one of the best 8, but to be the best. I want WK to build a team that can win all the way from March - October, not one that can't make it in October. Don't get me wrong, I think moneyball has some amazing points, but in the post season its about taking risks. Its about scoring when you have the oppurtunity. Its about sacrificing, bunthing, stealing bases, defense, and all other things that make small ball amazing. Its about manufacturing runs.


And this contributed what exactly to the discussion?

Last time I checked, the playoffs were a crapshoot, and no one can predict accurate which team will win once reaching the playoffs. On that same note, how many people can accurately predict which teams reach the playoffs?

As for what I do with my life, I'm a golf pro.

mth123
11-16-2006, 09:21 PM
I guess what I was getting at is they're higher needs for the Reds then 1st base

Actually a good 1b who can hit and put Hat on the bench is the biggest need IMO. Phillips could play SS with Freel at 2b and Dunn, Deno and JR in the OF. With EE at 3B and the catchers a good 1B could make this all work offensively. Having Hat leaves the team woefully short on run production to carry 3 non power guys up the middle. Since it won't happen, the next best thing would be a decent power guy to platoon with Hat. It takes Hat out of the line-up against lefties (where he's nearly an automatic out) and gives balance when teams can pitch to Dunn and Griffey with LH. The overall 1B production would improve dramatically and the line-up might be able to get back to the top half of the league in runs. Right now they look to be a team that will finish near the bottom with Pittsburgh, Fla and Houston.

The starting pitching is bad, but so is everyone's so they could still finish near the middle there with 2 really good guys at the top. They actually have quite a few options in the bullpen but could use a real standout there.