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View Full Version : REd Sox win Matzsuzaka bid at 51.1 million



Patpacillosjock
11-13-2006, 04:06 PM
Good snag for them..they'll make that posting money back and get one helluva pitcher. beckett, papelbon, lester, and matzsuzaka are all 26 and younger and will be pretty tough next year.

icehole3
11-13-2006, 04:34 PM
a little pricey IMO.

NJReds
11-13-2006, 04:38 PM
Hopefully this stops the Red Sox fans from whining about the Yankees spending habits. But that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.

M2
11-13-2006, 04:50 PM
Hopefully this stops the Red Sox fans from whining about the Yankees spending habits. But that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.

Pot: But the kettle is black I tell you!

Nice get for the Sox. If you're going to be a big market team then be a big market team. Though I wonder if that means the Sox are going to try to cut some costs elsewhere (e.g. Covelli Crisp).

lollipopcurve
11-13-2006, 04:52 PM
If you're going to be a big market team then be a big market team.

At this point, it's all the Newston Redskees to me.

Patpacillosjock
11-13-2006, 04:54 PM
i dont mind that they spent that much on that kind of talent...believe me, there are ways for THIS front office to be able to spend up to 80 million a year on the team if they wanted to..but they choose not to.

RedsManRick
11-13-2006, 04:54 PM
I think we're about to see them offer him crap salary and he'll go back to Japan for a year and come back as a real FA.

M2
11-13-2006, 04:59 PM
At this point, it's all the Newston Redskees to me.

That's the Newston Angeles Mebs you mean.

Highlifeman21
11-13-2006, 05:19 PM
I think we're about to see them offer him crap salary and he'll go back to Japan for a year and come back as a real FA.


Off the top of my head, I'm thinking 15+ M/YR. I can't imagine they'd throw 20+ M at him, but Theo's team got embarassed last year, they need to do something.

Handofdeath
11-13-2006, 05:27 PM
The 8th best record in the AL this season. A team that is aging badly and has many, many holes in it. Their answer is to spend 40 million for the right to negotiate with a client of Scott Boras. 40 million plus 10 million per season. All of this for a pitcher from Japan? Japanese pitchers are notorious for their mediocrity in the U.S. This is going to be so ugly. :evil:

terminator
11-13-2006, 05:31 PM
It makes no sense unless they are paying him less than $10MM per year. The $42MM works out to $8.5 to $10.5 per year on a four or five year deal, so if they pay him salary of more than $10MM the Sox are looking at paying more than $20MM per year for him. They could get Clemens (a known quantity not requiring the long term investment of nearly $100MM ) for $20MM. I guess I'm thinking about Irabu and having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. Other than Clemens, even #1 proven aces aren't quite getting $20MM.

blumj
11-13-2006, 05:42 PM
It only makes sense if they can make money off having him, like with Japanese advertising and things like that. I don't know if that's possible, but there has to be some reason they were willing to bid that high, assuming it wasn't just to play keep-away with NYY. And, if they don't actually sign him, it doesn't cost them anything.

Highlifeman21
11-13-2006, 05:54 PM
It makes no sense unless they are paying him less than $10MM per year. The $42MM works out to $8.5 to $10.5 per year on a four or five year deal, so if they pay him salary of more than $10MM the Sox are looking at paying more than $20MM per year for him. They could get Clemens (a known quantity not requiring the long term investment of nearly $100MM ) for $20MM. I guess I'm thinking about Irabu and having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. Other than Clemens, even #1 proven aces aren't quite getting $20MM.


I'm pretty sure (although I could be wrong) that the 42M doesn't go to the player, but rather his team, Seibu. The 42M was just a fee to allow the Red Sox to now negotiate a contract.

Handofdeath
11-13-2006, 05:56 PM
It only makes sense if they can make money off having him, like with Japanese advertising and things like that. I don't know if that's possible, but there has to be some reason they were willing to bid that high, assuming it wasn't just to play keep-away with NYY. And, if they don't actually sign him, it doesn't cost them anything.

I truly believe it was to play keep away. As if the Yankees are going to be so much better with him. The Yankees are old and so are the Red Sox. I don't think the Yankees understand what really wins pennants anymore. They just throw money out there and say " We spend more than everyone else, so we should be winning the Series every year. " They forgot what was the reason for their success a few years ago. They were the best TEAM. They didn't have the best players, they had the best team. The Red Sox are still living off the fumes of 2004.

Degenerate39
11-13-2006, 05:59 PM
Good for the Japanese team bad for the Sox

Krusty
11-13-2006, 07:23 PM
Unbelieveable. Add to that a 5 yr 50 million contract and the Red Sox will have invested nearly 90 million in one pitcher.

Can anyone say Chan Ho Park?

butlerbulldogs
11-13-2006, 07:40 PM
why do you say chan ho park, b/c he is asian?? he wasn't bought from japan

Cyclone792
11-13-2006, 08:07 PM
Couple key important points here:

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=166737&srvc=sports


The Sox also believe they can reclaim much of their original investment on the pitcher (the reported $38 million to $45 million) by extending their baseball and marketing efforts into Japan.

The Red Sox own 80 percent of NESN, which could be become quite a commodity in Tokyo if the Sox were to land the pitcher. Furthermore, the Sox would be able to capitalize on their rivalry with the Yankees, who similarly own their own network (YES) and who also have a Japanese star (Hideki Matsui).

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061111_11sox.30d5737.html


Whatever money the Sox offered in their bid to Seibu does not count toward the luxury tax, the threshold of which is now a payroll of $148 million.

-------------

The Sox think they can recoup a lot of the money through international marketing in the Far East, such as the televising of Matsuzaka's starts in Japan via NESN.

Possibly more than any other player, this type of offer for Matsuzaka isn't just about the run value he'll provide in winning games, it's an offer of a $42 million business investment looking to capitalize in the Japanese baseball fanbase market.

Whether it actually works or not that the Sox can recoup these costs via marketing and tapping into the Japanese market, nobody's going to know, but the Red Sox have to think that it will work. Obviously much of it depends on Matsuzaka's actual success in the majors; if he comes over and demonstrates that he's one of the best 10 starters or so, I have to think the Sox will have guessed mostly right. If he struggles, though, the Red Sox may lose a ton of money.

blumj
11-13-2006, 11:12 PM
SPECULATION ALERT:
Plus, there's also the possibility that this posting system is really as shady as it seems like it could be, and Seibu is going to have to kick a little something back in order to collect. They get nothing if he doesn't sign, and, if the Red Sox don't want to give Matsuzaka as big a contract as he wants, it's just not that hard to imagine a little extra "negotiating" going on.

Krusty
11-14-2006, 12:47 AM
why do you say chan ho park, b/c he is asian?? he wasn't bought from japan


Nope. Worst contract next to Kevin Brown's.

Redsnake
11-14-2006, 08:24 AM
I still can't believe a ball team can spend $40mil just as a negotiation fee and not be counted against the luxury tax. Small market teams could barely afford the contract let alone the fee. I'm sure a few small market teams would have offered him a contract if not for the fee.

terminator
11-14-2006, 09:24 AM
I'm pretty sure (although I could be wrong) that the 42M doesn't go to the player, but rather his team, Seibu. The 42M was just a fee to allow the Red Sox to now negotiate a contract.
You're right. I did write paying "for him" rather than "to him."

Anyway, others may be right about paying $20MM+ per season as an "investment in the Japanese fan market" but it's pretty ironic in light of Theo's complaining this season about being unable to compete with the Yankee's spending and needing to get back to developing players.

Highlifeman21
11-14-2006, 09:36 AM
I still can't believe a ball team can spend $40mil just as a negotiation fee and not be counted against the luxury tax. Small market teams could barely afford the contract let alone the fee. I'm sure a few small market teams would have offered him a contract if not for the fee.

The negotiation fee could easily just be budgeted as capital improvements/investments. For a small market team, that money doesn't make a lot of sense to essentially waste in the Japanese market b/c that's not their market. They're small, not global. Your bigger/large market teams can easily invest that negotiation fee overseas to attempt to open a pipeline for not only talent, but revenue generating opportunities. Unfortunately, that's the nature of economics, finance and business.

Say your local mom and pop convenience store in Fairfax is looking to expand their market. Are they going to advertise and attempt to draw patrons from Cleveland, or are they going to try and court and cater to the Mariemont, Mt. Lookout, Madisonville crowds? I think you know the answer to that. It's the same for Major League Baseball. While every team is a national brand on some level, not all of them are international brands. The Red Sox may not even be an international brand quite yet, but this is a step in the right direction for what they believe is an emerging market for them.

Unfortunately, this is the nature of the beast, and until the smaller market teams grow their own markets first regionally and then nationally, they will remain smaller markets.

NJReds
11-14-2006, 01:29 PM
Pot: But the kettle is black I tell you!

Nice get for the Sox. If you're going to be a big market team then be a big market team. Though I wonder if that means the Sox are going to try to cut some costs elsewhere (e.g. Covelli Crisp).

I'm not sure where the "pot-kettle" comment is directed. But it should be directed at the Sox, who at the trading deadline brought out the hankies and violins to explain that they couldn't trade for Bobby Abreu because "we're not the Yankees."

$42M + what's likely to be a 5 year - $80+M contract is a lot of money to shell out for a guy who's never thrown a pitch in the major leagues. I remember when Hideki Irabu was the "Japanese Nolan Ryan." How'd that work out?

Now, they could lowball Matzsuzaka and let him go back to Japan - in effect blocking him from NY. But that would only delay him joining the Yankees for one year and I don't think Theo would play that game. I think the Sox will go all out to sign this guy.

Patpacillosjock
11-14-2006, 08:46 PM
holy crap! its now reported they paid 51 million!

flyer85
11-14-2006, 08:47 PM
that some serious talking cash. If he gets a 4yr $40M contract the Sox will have spent over $90M for him.

TeamBoone
11-14-2006, 11:12 PM
$51.1 according to this story....


Tuesday, November 14, 2006

Red Sox Bid $51.1 Million for Matsuzaka
The Associated Press By RONALD BLUM

NAPLES, Fla. (AP) The market price for pitching talent is soaring so high that it's come to this: The Boston Red Sox are ready to pay more than $50 million just for the right to negotiate with Daisuke Matsuzaka, who's never thrown his "gyroball" or any pitch, for that matter in the major leagues.

The $51.1 million winning bid is only the start. Now the Red Sox have 30 days to finalize a contract with the Japanese ace.

Making a record-setting bid that easily blew away offers from the New York Yankees, Mets and others, the Red Sox won the auction Tuesday for the World Baseball Classic MVP.

"We have long admired Mr. Matsuzaka's abilities and believe he would be a great fit with the Red Sox organization," Boston general manager Theo Epstein said. "Clearly, we believe Mr. Matsuzaka is a real talent."

And they're prepared to pay big money for him the previous high bid for a posted player from Japan was $13,125,000 by the Seattle Mariners for Ichiro Suzuki after the 2000 season.

Speculation about what it will take for Boston to sign Matsuzaka has ranged from $7 million to $10 million annually over three to four years.

The Seibu Lions of Japan's Pacific League announced they had accepted the high bid for their prized pitcher, and the major league commissioner's office simultaneously confirmed at the general managers' meetings that the Red Sox had made the offer.

If the Red Sox and Matsuzaka can agree to a deal by midnight on Dec. 14, the right-hander would join a talented rotation that already includes Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett and converted closer Jonathan Papelbon.

"We're excited to have won this part of the process and we're hopeful we can reach an agreement," Epstein said.

The 26-year-old Matsuzaka is represented by Scott Boras, who last year negotiated the deal that moved center fielder Johnny Damon from the Red Sox to the Yankees.

After missing the playoffs last season, Boston outbid its longtime rival this time.

Epstein said the team would invite Boras, Matsuzaka and his family to Boston to begin negotiations. Boras said the sides planned to set up a meeting soon, but wasn't sure whether it would be in Boston, Japan or California.

Matsuzaka was 17-5 with a 2.13 ERA and 200 strikeouts for the Lions this year. He throws in the high-90s mph, has good off-speed pitches and is known for his deceptive "gyroball," which has been likened to a screwball.

In assessing the amount of Boston's bid, Boras compared Matsuzaka's allure to what outfielder Hideki Matsui has brought to the Yankees.

"It's the value of a No. 1 starter. It's much like Matsui and the Yankees," Boras said. "It shows the value of a player like this. He brings advertising dollars. He brings a network presence in Japan."

Unlike Matsui, Matsuzaka was not yet eligible for free agency.

For selling their star pitcher, the Lions would get the $51.1 million from Boston but only if the Red Sox sign Matsuzaka.

The Mets finished second with a bid between $39 million and $40 million, according to a baseball official who spoke on condition of anonymity because none of the losing bids were revealed. The Yankees bid between $32 million and $33 million, another baseball official said.

Matsuzaka was scheduled to fly to the United States on Wednesday and give a brief news conference at the airport.

Even before the announcement, general managers had assumed Boston would be the highest bidder in the blind process.

"We'll congratulate the winner and move on," New York Yankees GM Brian Cashman said Tuesday afternoon.

The Chicago Cubs and Texas Rangers also were thought to be among the bidders.

"I'm very comfortable with the bid that we made," Mets general manager Omar Minaya said, sidestepping whether he would have topped Boston's offer now that he knew what it was.

Bidding closes Friday for Akinori Iwamura, a third baseman with the Central League's Yakult Swallows.

Before the Matsuzaka announcement, agents roamed the hotel lobby, discussing their free-agent clients.

"Pitching, as usual, is at a premium," Boras said.

Minaya and Epstein met on Tuesday, but the potential availability of slugger Manny Ramirez wasn't discussed. Boston has explored trade possibilities for the All-Star outfielder in recent years.

Second baseman Mark DeRosa became the first major league free agent to switch teams, leaving Texas for a $13 million, three-year contract with the Chicago Cubs.

The Mets re-signed two players, agreeing to a $12 million, two-year contract with 41-year-old pitcher Orlando Hernandez and a $3.8 million, one-year deal with second baseman Jose Valentin.

Minaya said some teams are unsure of where the marketplace is going, "so if they could do something quick, they're going to try to do it."

Mike Mussina's agent, Arn Tellem, kept up talks with the Yankees on a new contract for the pitcher that likely will be worth $23 million to $25 million over two years.

"We're in the red zone," Tellem said.

With Barry Zito and Jason Schmidt heading a weak free-agent class, pitchers will get top prices.

"There are 30 clubs and probably three-quarters are looking for pitching," new Chicago Cubs manager Lou Piniella said. "There's a lot of interesting pitchers out there. At the end of the year, the teams that have pitching, and healthy pitching, are usually the ones that are around."

GMs, as usual, will hold their annual discussion Wednesday of whether to have instant replay available to umpires, a concept commissioner Bud Selig opposes. In the past, the idea hasn't garnered enough support.

"I guess we'll get a sense of that tomorrow," said Joe Garagiola Jr., a senior vice president in the commissioner's office.

There will also be talk Wednesday of whether to eliminate tie games, having them instead become suspended games. On Thursday, the GMs will discuss whether to have uniform standards for storing baseballs, a talk prompted by the use of a humidor by the Colorado Rockies at Coors Field.

As for the postseason schedule, nothing seems to have come of the idea floated by Selig to give wild-card teams fewer home games in the playoffs.

"That is not officially on the agenda, so I suspect that will be some good lobby talk," Garagiola said.

GMs did vote on one rule change, proposing that outright assignments to the minor leagues not count against the number of optional assignments a team has on a player. That must be approved by owners and the union.
http://broadband.zoomtown.com/news/read.php?id=14542067&ps=1013&lang=en&_LT=HOME_SHNWC01L2_UNEWS

DannyB
11-15-2006, 05:34 AM
The 26-year-old Matsuzaka is represented by Scott Boras
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Redsnake
11-15-2006, 10:06 AM
Barry Zito projected contract now looks like a bargain.

fearofpopvol1
11-15-2006, 11:36 AM
anyone else tired of hearing about the hype surrounding him? clearly he has been a stud overseas and he may well be a stud in the MLB too. however, until he pitches a season (or seasons), i'm tired of hearing about him until he proves his worth.

of course, the media hype isn't his fault, but still...

Degenerate39
11-15-2006, 12:00 PM
I just can't wait till he's a flop so it'll make the media eat their words. I've never seen the guy pitch so I don't have an opinion about him. But I'm almost positive he's not worth 51 million that they bid.

Patpacillosjock
11-15-2006, 12:13 PM
anyone else tired of hearing about the hype surrounding him? clearly he has been a stud overseas and he may well be a stud in the MLB too. however, until he pitches a season (or seasons), i'm tired of hearing about him until he proves his worth.

of course, the media hype isn't his fault, but still...


You're right..and i hope fans remember this..it isnt his fault that people hype him up over here. I would hate to see a young pitcher from Japan come here and suffer unfair resentment for financial reasons plus get racial slurs like BH Kim did in boston and NY

NJReds
11-15-2006, 12:29 PM
I would hate to see a young pitcher from Japan come here and suffer unfair resentment for financial reasons plus get racial slurs like BH Kim did in boston and NY

I can't speak for BH Kim's reception in Boston or NY, but Hideki Matsui and Chien-Ming Wang both have no issues in NY. Hideki loves living in NY, from what I've read.

Kaz Matsui got booed with the Mets, but it was performance related, not race related.

Highlifeman21
11-15-2006, 12:44 PM
I just can't wait till he's a flop so it'll make the media eat their words. I've never seen the guy pitch so I don't have an opinion about him. But I'm almost positive he's not worth 51 million that they bid.


The 51M is capital investment/improvement for the Red Sox. Essentially, they are buying into the Japanese market to expand their brand. That's all the 51M represents. Whatever they pay him in terms of a contract, that's his worth.

It's a great business move for the Red Sox. Even if they can't reach an agreement, they block him from entering the league for a year, AND they get the 51M back. Theo's finally attempted to redeem himself after jumping ship in the gorilla suit.

NJReds
11-15-2006, 01:08 PM
I wonder if the Sox will get a discount on Matzsuzaka after they make a big-time offer to Bora-client, J.D. Drew? Drew backed out of 3 yrs-$33M, so he must have had some idea that a team would offer him a bigger deal if he went the FA route. To date, the Red Sox have shown the most interest.

big boy
11-15-2006, 01:23 PM
Why don't foreign born players like this guy go through the draft?

TeamSelig
11-15-2006, 01:30 PM
I agree, I think they should have to go through the draft & go through arbitration, etc. like everyone else.

Yachtzee
11-15-2006, 01:30 PM
At this point, it's all the Newston Redskees to me.

The ESPN Yank Sox?

M2
11-15-2006, 01:33 PM
I'm not sure where the "pot-kettle" comment is directed. But it should be directed at the Sox, who at the trading deadline brought out the hankies and violins to explain that they couldn't trade for Bobby Abreu because "we're not the Yankees."

I thought it was obvious that's where it was directed.

I always get a kick out Sox fans when the pull the "poor, little us" routine.

NJReds
11-15-2006, 01:41 PM
I thought it was obvious that's where it was directed.

I always get a kick out Sox fans when the pull the "poor, little us" routine.


Sometimes obvious flies right past me...:help:

blumj
11-15-2006, 02:01 PM
I agree, I think they should have to go through the draft & go through arbitration, etc. like everyone else.
Not enough incentive for them to come over here that way. They spend 9 years working their way up the food chain in Japan, reach free agency so they can be in control of their own fate, and then come over here to be treated like powerless rookies all over again? Now, granted, this whole posting system has enough holes to drive a truck through it, and I think they should do it differently or not at all, but Hideki Matsui, for example, would have never stepped foot in the US if not for teams here being willing to give him more money than what he could have made by staying home. And there's certainly no incentive for the Japanese league to allow their own young, unproven talent to be drafted into the MLB draft instead of their own. That would be suicide for them.

Patpacillosjock
11-15-2006, 02:14 PM
I can't speak for BH Kim's reception in Boston or NY, but Hideki Matsui and Chien-Ming Wang both have no issues in NY. Hideki loves living in NY, from what I've read.

Kaz Matsui got booed with the Mets, but it was performance related, not race related.

My sister lives in downtown Boston and has season tix to Fenway and she told me how she would hear the fans just lay into BH Kim about being asian while he was in the bullpen.

Which is why he flipped off that fan a few years ago, then got shipped out about a month or two later.

NJReds
11-15-2006, 02:46 PM
My sister lives in downtown Boston and has season tix to Fenway and she told me how she would hear the fans just lay into BH Kim about being asian while he was in the bullpen.

Which is why he flipped off that fan a few years ago, then got shipped out about a month or two later.


Boston has a reputation for being racially intolerant. I was speaking more about NY. I don't recall Kim having issues there except for giving up walk-off HRs.

Patpacillosjock
11-15-2006, 06:40 PM
Boston has a reputation for being racially intolerant. I was speaking more about NY. I don't recall Kim having issues there except for giving up walk-off HRs.

lol ever sat with the bronx and jersey guido's in the upper deck of yankee stadium? they'll say anything about your race if you are doing terrible that particular game.

i've heard a lot in my lifetime about asian players and hispanics even in Yankee and Riverfront and Jacobs field..Obviously cuz I sat in the cheap seats where people are a bit drunker but still.. fans will say anything..my fraternity brothers use to drop N bombs all the time at Cinergy Field in the stands..

vaticanplum
11-15-2006, 06:42 PM
lol ever sat with the bronx and jersey guido's in the upper deck of yankee stadium? they'll say anything about your race if you are doing terrible that particular game.

Oh, the irony...

not to mention the charm.

Patpacillosjock
11-15-2006, 07:19 PM
Oh, the irony...

not to mention the charm.


are u saying jersey guido is offensive? if you think thats ANYWHERE along the lines of other racial slurs then YOU my friend arent Italian and waaay tooo sensitive.

oogots

NJReds
11-16-2006, 09:39 AM
lol ever sat with the bronx and jersey guido's in the upper deck of yankee stadium?

Yes...and I'm from NJ and Italian.

And I've not heard racially targeted attacks like you mention. In fact, Yankees and Mets crowds are among the most racially diverse that I've encountered -- so if someone yelled something at a player, they'd likely be offending someone sitting in their immediate vicinity.

I'm not saying in never happens, and I'm not saying the Bleacher Bums don't heckle (they do). But I've been to a bunch of Yankee games and I could classify the crowd a lot of ways, but racist isn't one of them.

westofyou
11-16-2006, 10:29 AM
Oh, the irony...

not to mention the charm.

Charm? I was thinking of another word.

cincinnati chili
11-19-2006, 11:19 AM
I've run into really drunk, racist belligerent people at both Yankee Stadium and Fenway. Not all the time, but occasionally. Occasionally it even used to happen at Riverfront.

All it takes is for someone who is comfortable saying racist stuff in his living room to get so drunk that he doesn't realize that he's surrounded by other human beings.

It's not a Boston thing. It happens everywhere.

blackpower
12-18-2006, 06:49 PM
.