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cincy09
11-14-2006, 03:14 PM
According to cbssportsline.com
Brandon Webb has won the NL Cy Young Award



NEW YORK -- Brandon Webb of the Arizona Diamondbacks won a wide-open race for the NL Cy Young Award, beating out San Diego closer Trevor Hoffman on Tuesday.

One of six pitchers who tied for the league lead with a pedestrian total of 16 wins, Webb received 15 of 32 first-place votes and 103 points in balloting by the Baseball Writers' Association of America. Hoffman, who broke the career saves record last season, got 12 first-place votes and 77 points.

St. Louis Cardinals ace Chris Carpenter, the 2005 Cy Young Award winner, finished third with two first-place votes and 63 points.

Houston's Roy Oswalt, who led the NL with a 2.98 ERA, got the other three first-place selections and came in fourth.

Webb, who went 16-8 with a 3.10 ERA, was listed second on seven ballots and third on seven others. No pitcher was included on every entry.
AP NEWS

Heath
11-14-2006, 03:16 PM
Good for him. Couldn't agree more.

Not bad for the small town Kentucky kid.

cincy09
11-14-2006, 03:19 PM
He wasn't even being discussed this morning by the pundits. All the talk was about Carpenter and Hoffman.

RedsManRick
11-14-2006, 03:21 PM
Wow, though he lost it after that rough September. Carpenter would've won it if he hadn't won last year, IMO. Still, well deserved. Guess Oswalt is next.

NJReds
11-14-2006, 03:38 PM
Not even a single vote for Harang. What a joke. I didn't expect him to win, but he deserved some recognition.

Here's the final vote tally (link (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061114&content_id=1740358&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)):

Brandon Webb (103)
Trevor Hoffman (77)
Chris Carpenter (63)
Roy Oswalt (31)
Carlos Zambrano (6)
Billy Wagner (4)
John Smoltz (3)
Takashi Saito (1)

RedsManRick
11-14-2006, 03:51 PM
No votes for Arroyo or Harang... they certainly shouldn't have won. But wow.

Why in God's name was Hoffman so high? It's not a career achievement award... If you want a reliever -- give it to Saito.

Johnny Footstool
11-14-2006, 03:53 PM
Saito gets a vote, but not Arroyo or Harang?

Must have been an LA writer.

TRF
11-14-2006, 03:54 PM
Aaron Harang is the most underrated SP in the National League.

A closer look at Aaron's season stats.

tied for 1st in wins.
1st in strikeouts.
3rd in IP.
6 more walks than Webb.

You could make the argument that Harang was easily as good as Webb this past season. In a lot of areas he was better.

This isn't a homer post. I'm not saying Webb didn't deserve the award. But NO votes for Harang?

NJReds is right. that's a complete joke.
11th in ERA.

RedsManRick
11-14-2006, 03:55 PM
I honestly think that most voters look at 4 things: Wins, Saves, ERA, Reputation. That's it.

redsupport
11-14-2006, 03:57 PM
Did Joe Mays receive any support?

TOBTTReds
11-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Why in God's name was Hoffman so high? It's not a career achievement award... If you want a reliever -- give it to Saito.

Hoffman actually pitched better than his career norms.

2.14 era, 46/51 saves, 63 ip, 48 h, 50 k

But I agree Saito should have been much closer than TH.

Saito:

2.07, 24/26 saves, 78.1 ip, 48 h (same as TH but 15 more innings), 107 k's (rate much higher than TH)

Superdude
11-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Who votes on this crap? Baseball awards are so screwed up. Hoffman at #2? He wasn't even the best reliever.

Tom Servo
11-14-2006, 04:07 PM
Wagner and Saito got votes and Harang didn't? Seriously?

Geez...

Handofdeath
11-14-2006, 04:15 PM
Aaron Harang is the most underrated SP in the National League.

A closer look at Aaron's season stats.

tied for 1st in wins.
1st in strikeouts.
3rd in IP.
6 more walks than Webb.

You could make the argument that Harang was easily as good as Webb this past season. In a lot of areas he was better.

This isn't a homer post. I'm not saying Webb didn't deserve the award. But NO votes for Harang?

NJReds is right. that's a complete joke.
11th in ERA.

Harang's ERA was just a little too high but he did deserve some consideration. And I'll say it, Webb didn't deserve the award. Oswalt or Carpenter did.

OldRed1966
11-14-2006, 04:17 PM
Harang's ERA was just a little too high but he did deserve some consideration. And I'll say it, Webb didn't deserve the award. Oswalt or Carpenter did.


Would you care to explain why you think Webb didn't deserve the award? He was the most deserving IMO.

Handofdeath
11-14-2006, 04:29 PM
Would you care to explain why you think Webb didn't deserve the award? He was the most deserving IMO.

Certainly, other players had the same number of wins. Oswalt and Carpenter had better ERA's. And Webb pitched for a team that finished in last. Carpenter probably deserved it.

Falls City Beer
11-14-2006, 04:29 PM
Carpenter got hosed.

Danny Serafini
11-14-2006, 04:31 PM
I fully expected Harang to not get a vote. His ERA is too high to win a Cy Young, and he doesn't even have the highest star power on his own staff. Arroyo is the one I expected to get at least a couple votes, though not anything more than that.

harangatang
11-14-2006, 04:32 PM
Carpenter got hosed.Totaly agree.

Handofdeath
11-14-2006, 05:02 PM
I fully expected Harang to not get a vote. His ERA is too high to win a Cy Young, and he doesn't even have the highest star power on his own staff. Arroyo is the one I expected to get at least a couple votes, though not anything more than that.

I think if you're double digit in losses that pretty much costs you votes wise. You have to win around 20 to counter balance that.

Matt700wlw
11-14-2006, 05:06 PM
Harang wouldn't have won, but not getting ANY votes is a joke....he deserves some love for the year he had.

His ERA may be a little high, but he right there with the rest of them in other statistical categories

terminator
11-14-2006, 05:07 PM
No votes for Arroyo or Harang... they certainly shouldn't have won. But wow.


I'm glad to see no votes for those two. Helps to keep the price down. "Whaddya mean ya want $10MM per year? You weren't even good enough to get a single Cy Young vote!" :)

TRF
11-14-2006, 05:32 PM
Harang wouldn't have won, but not getting ANY votes is a joke....he deserves some love for the year he had.

His ERA may be a little high, but he right there with the rest of them in other statistical categories

I wonder what the park adjusted ERA's were for the top 15 SP's?

I wonder why leading the league in K's doesn't merit consideration. Or being top 3 in innings pitched?

ah, let the league keep under estimating him. He's one of the 5 best pitchers in the NL, and he's the Ace of the staff. Arroyo was nearly as good, and though I had doubts that he would be based on only 2 seasons of data, I must admit I'm glad the reds have that kind of 1-2 punch.

Had it not been the month and a half where Arroyo couldn't buy a win, he might have won it outright with about 18-19 wins.

OldRed1966
11-14-2006, 06:34 PM
Certainly, other players had the same number of wins. Oswalt and Carpenter had better ERA's. And Webb pitched for a team that finished in last. Carpenter probably deserved it.

Webb's ERA was better most of the year until he totally bombed in his last outing of the year. Webb was 2nd in the league with 235 innings pitched, he was tied for first in complete games with 5, and shutouts with 3. The fact that he pitched for a last place team makes it even more impressive IMO. You can certainly make a case for Carpenter and Oswalt, but to say that Webb didn't deserve it, or that Carpenter was hosed just isn't justifiable to me.

mth123
11-14-2006, 11:31 PM
Harang wouldn't have won, but not getting ANY votes is a joke....he deserves some love for the year he had.

His ERA may be a little high, but he right there with the rest of them in other statistical categories

I hope that love is in the form of a long term deal instead of giving big bucks to the likes of Steve Trachsel or Jamey Wright.

George Foster
11-14-2006, 11:47 PM
From a purely selfish point of view Harrang not winning the Cy Young is good for the Reds. Now would be the time to lock him up for a couple more years, on the cheap.

VR
11-16-2006, 12:51 PM
Throw in the fact that Harang pitched in the ultimate hitter's park. Hosed fer sure to not even get one vote. Wow.

Degenerate39
11-16-2006, 12:54 PM
I wonder why leading the league in K's doesn't merit consideration. Or being top 3 in innings pitched?

Or 16 wins

George Foster
11-16-2006, 10:02 PM
I got to meet Brandon Webb last year before the game up stairs in the press box. I went to the game with our former college coach Keith Madison from Kentucky. What a great guy. Very humble and religious guy. Got my picture taken with him and a baseball card signed by him to Davis (1st overall pick in the 2022 amateur baseball draft). I have it framed in his room. What a treasure! He was good in 05, but having a signed Cy Young winner hanging up...wow:thumbup:

I think the voting gave Webb the benefit of the doubt for playing on a bad team. On a good team, he picks up several more wins.

CaiGuy
11-16-2006, 11:34 PM
From a purely selfish point of view Harrang not winning the Cy Young is good for the Reds. Now would be the time to lock him up for a couple more years, on the cheap.

that's exactly what I thought.

A Cy Young Award would drive his price and value up.

Let him fly under the radar and be underated, as long as he is playing well for the Reds, who cares?

BoxingRed
11-17-2006, 08:59 AM
Throw in the fact that Harang pitched in the ultimate hitter's park. Hosed fer sure to not even get one vote. Wow.

Bank one is a far tougher place to pitch than GABP.

ERA+ from Baseball-Reference.com:
Webb 154
Carpenter 143
Oswalt 152
Arroyo 146
Harang 128

All that said, I think any of the first 3 could have won it. Hoffman getting that many votes and Harang and Arroyo getting none shows the award is a joke.

paulrichjr
11-17-2006, 12:51 PM
I'm too lazy to look but does anyone know how many more years we have the luxuary of those two? I know Arroyo is 2 years...I was thinking the same for Harang.

paintmered
11-17-2006, 02:44 PM
I remember talking to my friends while walking out of GABP after the May 26 game about how the Reds just faced the best pitcher in the league.

Of course, Webb did his part by throwing a 2-hit shutout. That was the most dominant pitching performance I had seen in years. The Reds were clueless against him all night.


Arizona IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Webb (W, 8-0) 9.0 7 0 0 1 5 0 2.18

Cincinnati IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Milton (L, 2-2) 8.0 3 1 1 0 9 0 5.52
Coffey 1.0 2 2 2 1 1 1 1.26

Pitches-strikes: Webb 106-71, Milton 90-66, Coffey 26-15.
Ground outs-fly outs: Webb 18-4, Milton 3-12, Coffey 1-1.
Batters faced: Webb 33, Milton 29, Coffey 6.
Umpires: HP: Paul Nauert. 1B: Charlie Reliford. 2B: Larry Vanover. 3B: Greg Gibson.
Weather: 79 degrees, partly cloudy.
Wind: 15 mph, Out to CF.
T: 2:12.
Att: 33,753.

VR
11-17-2006, 06:36 PM
I remember talking to my friends while walking out of GABP after the May 26 game about how the Reds just faced the best pitcher in the league.

Of course, Webb did his part by throwing a 2-hit shutout. That was the most dominant pitching performance I had seen in years. The Reds were clueless against him all night.


Arizona IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Webb (W, 8-0) 9.0 7 0 0 1 5 0 2.18

Cincinnati IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Milton (L, 2-2) 8.0 3 1 1 0 9 0 5.52
Coffey 1.0 2 2 2 1 1 1 1.26

Pitches-strikes: Webb 106-71, Milton 90-66, Coffey 26-15.
Ground outs-fly outs: Webb 18-4, Milton 3-12, Coffey 1-1.
Batters faced: Webb 33, Milton 29, Coffey 6.
Umpires: HP: Paul Nauert. 1B: Charlie Reliford. 2B: Larry Vanover. 3B: Greg Gibson.
Weather: 79 degrees, partly cloudy.
Wind: 15 mph, Out to CF.
T: 2:12.
Att: 33,753.


I agree, Milty was dominant that night

VR
11-17-2006, 06:51 PM
Bank one is a far tougher place to pitch than GABP.




I believe that number is park and league normalized era. I haven't seen any press on the BOB being a better hitters park than the GAB? Is that really the case?

vaticanplum
11-17-2006, 07:34 PM
Good and well-deserved. I would have gone for Carpenter, but Webb is an almost equal choice.

But I really think there's no question now that Harang is the most underrated pitcher in the National League.

BoxingRed
11-17-2006, 08:53 PM
I believe that number is park and league normalized era. I haven't seen any press on the BOB being a better hitters park than the GAB? Is that really the case?

Definitely. GABP has a small edge in HRs, but the BOB is a half step behind Coors in its heyday in all other areas. The BOB is probably the most offensive park this side of the Ballpark in Arlington.
It's been said on here a thousand times, but outside of HRs, GABP plays almost about neutral and is a terrible place to try and hit a triple.

Caveat Emperor
11-17-2006, 10:00 PM
But I really think there's no question now that Harang is the most underrated pitcher in the National League.

Call me a selfish jerk, but every vote he got for the Cy Young in a losing effort would've cost the Reds extra at the negotiation table in an effort to sign him up to a multi-year deal, or at the arbitration hearing if they go that route.

I'm cool with him flying under the radar if it saves the club some coin that can be used to improve other areas.

vaticanplum
11-17-2006, 10:45 PM
Call me a selfish jerk, but every vote he got for the Cy Young in a losing effort would've cost the Reds extra at the negotiation table in an effort to sign him up to a multi-year deal, or at the arbitration hearing if they go that route.

I'm cool with him flying under the radar if it saves the club some coin that can be used to improve other areas.

I don't necessarily have a problem with it either, especially since I question the merit and validity of any voted award. And flying under the radar seems to suit his style and what little I know of his personality (and I know very little of it, which is kind of what I mean). But I am curious as to how these things happen. Part of it is that the Reds haven't been competitive while he's been pitching for them. But what's the rest? Media favoring/ignorance? Trends? Pitching style? Flashiness or lack thereof? I really don't know, not in this case.

Harang's been a very solid pitcher for a few years now, I've actually heard very educated baseball (non-Reds fans) say they don't think he's very good. Non-Reds fans tend to be surprised by his stats. It doesn't bother me (well, it does kind of bother me that he didn't get a SINGLE vote), but I wonder why it is.

Falls City Beer
11-17-2006, 10:47 PM
I don't necessarily have a problem with it either, especially since I question the merit and validity of any voted award. And flying under the radar seems to suit his style and what little I know of his personality (and I know very little of it, which is kind of what I mean). But I am curious as to how these things happen. Part of it is that the Reds haven't been competitive while he's been pitching for them. But what's the rest? Media favoring/ignorance? Trends? Pitching style? Flashiness or lack thereof? I really don't know, not in this case.

Harang's been a very solid pitcher for a few years now, I've actually heard very educated baseball (non-Reds fans) say they don't think he's very good. Non-Reds fans tend to be surprised by his stats. It doesn't bother me (well, it does kind of bother me that he didn't get a SINGLE vote), but I wonder why it is.

I like Aaron, but I think he's a little overvalued on this site.

vaticanplum
11-17-2006, 10:51 PM
I like Aaron, but I think he's a little overvalued on this site.

I don't think he was this year. I don't yet have confidence that he will be this good for a long time; he's worked hard and improved but I think he has a ceiling. I think this year could end up being his career year. But that'd be a very respectable career year.

The past couple of years he's reminded me a little of Mark Buehrle. Not his stuff, but his style and career. Workhorse, no-nonsense type of pitchers who were not expected to do a lot on the basis of their talent but have worked their butts off and done really well. And the minute people started crowning Buehrle an ace, this year happened.

Falls City Beer
11-17-2006, 10:57 PM
I don't think he was this year. I don't yet have confidence that he will be this good for a long time; he's worked hard and improved but I think he has a ceiling. I think this year could end up being his career year. But that'd be a very respectable career year.

The past couple of years he's reminded me a little of Mark Buehrle. Not his stuff, but his style and career. Workhorse, no-nonsense type of pitchers who were not expected to do a lot on the basis of their talent but have worked their butts off and done really well. And the minute people started crowning Buehrle an ace, this year happened.

He gave up an alarming number of homers this year.

vaticanplum
11-17-2006, 11:05 PM
He gave up an alarming number of homers this year.

How many of those came later in the season when he had been overworked? I think he gave up more of EVERYTHING this year. He also pitched 234 innings, giving him more chances to give up homers than most pitchers (especially in that park), and 234 innings also means fatigue to me.

234 innings is a ton, even for a workhorse. That's 20 more innings than he pitched last year and about 70 more than the year before that.

Falls City Beer
11-17-2006, 11:42 PM
How many of those came later in the season when he had been overworked? I think he gave up more of EVERYTHING this year. He also pitched 234 innings, giving him more chances to give up homers than most pitchers (especially in that park), and 234 innings also means fatigue to me.

234 innings is a ton, even for a workhorse. That's 20 more innings than he pitched last year and about 70 more than the year before that.

In the same number of innings, Webb gave up 13 fewer home runs. That's what distinguishes a Cy Young winner and a pitcher who's nice to have on your staff.

Chip R
11-17-2006, 11:54 PM
I'm glad Harang is underrated. Hopefully the opposing teams will keep underrating him - although I heard Bobby Cox compare him to Greg Maddux so that might be a bit of a pipe dream.

I don't think - and I hope not - he's a finished product yet. He throws a ton of pitches. I know strikeout pitchers tend to do this but I'd like to see him develop a pitch that a batter can ground out to 2nd or SS on. One reason for the high number of pitches is that batters seem to foul off a lot of balls off him. That comes from not having a 97 mph fastball or a slider that falls off the table. One thing to remember is that a lot of great pitchers - and I'm not saying Harang is going to be a great one - took a while to become great. It's a learning and a maturation process. Aaron's also had 3 different pitching coaches in 3 years and is going to have his 4th in 4 in 2007. That can't be easy on a pitcher. One guy tells you to pitch one way, the next guy tells you something different and so on. Plus he's not exactly working with Mike Matheny and Brad Ausmus back there.

I wouldn't get too worked up about the HRs, FCB. Guys like Catfish Hunter used to give up a lot of home runs. I'd much rather see a solo HR than a 3 run shot or a 3 run double. You also have to take into consideration that his home park gives up a lot of HRs and he's playing in an era where parks are smaller and hitters are bigger. Go back and look at games from the 70s and 80s. Everyone looked like Shawn Green then. Now everyone looks and is bigger. The balls are juiced as well as the players. If Aaron is going to emulate Maddux, I would hope pitch efficiency would be the area he does so.

Falls City Beer
11-18-2006, 12:06 AM
I'm glad Harang is underrated. Hopefully the opposing teams will keep underrating him - although I heard Bobby Cox compare him to Greg Maddux so that might be a bit of a pipe dream.

I don't think - and I hope not - he's a finished product yet. He throws a ton of pitches. I know strikeout pitchers tend to do this but I'd like to see him develop a pitch that a batter can ground out to 2nd or SS on. One reason for the high number of pitches is that batters seem to foul off a lot of balls off him. That comes from not having a 97 mph fastball or a slider that falls off the table. One thing to remember is that a lot of great pitchers - and I'm not saying Harang is going to be a great one - took a while to become great. It's a learning and a maturation process. Aaron's also had 3 different pitching coaches in 3 years and is going to have his 4th in 4 in 2007. That can't be easy on a pitcher. One guy tells you to pitch one way, the next guy tells you something different and so on. Plus he's not exactly working with Mike Matheny and Brad Ausmus back there.

I wouldn't get too worked up about the HRs, FCB. Guys like Catfish Hunter used to give up a lot of home runs. I'd much rather see a solo HR than a 3 run shot or a 3 run double. You also have to take into consideration that his home park gives up a lot of HRs and he's playing in an era where parks are smaller and hitters are bigger. Go back and look at games from the 70s and 80s. Everyone looked like Shawn Green then. Now everyone looks and is bigger. The balls are juiced as well as the players. If Aaron is going to emulate Maddux, I would hope pitch efficiency would be the area he does so.


A guy like Oswalt keeps the ball in the park in an even smaller park than GAB. Aaron needs to find a way to get his SLGA below .425 before he can even be mentioned in the same breath with Webb, Carpenter, Oswalt in Cy Young discussions. But at age 28, I'm not banking on it. He's a nice arm, but Bobby Cox's praise is just silly, honestly.

Caveat Emperor
11-18-2006, 04:32 AM
I like Aaron, but I think he's a little overvalued on this site.

11th in ERA in the NL
6th in DIPS (Top 5: Webb, Oswalt, Peavy, Smoltz, Carpenter)
3rd in IP
1st in Ks
1st in CGs

He's in his age-prime years, and he's improved each of the last two seasons. To say he's overrated on this site is stretching things -- Harang was legitimately one of the top 5-10 starting pitchers in the NL last season, and looking at his DIPS and BABIP numbers, he was doing it by showing genuine talent and not getting consistently lucky.

Next season, I'd like to see him be a little more consistent from outing to outing, which is really the final step he'd have to take to become a truly dominant starter as opposed to the very good one that he is right now.

Overrated? The numbers say otherwise, IMO.

Ron Madden
11-18-2006, 05:49 AM
I'll not miss any sleep over this award but...

I'd like to hear who our Beat Writers voted for and why.

vaticanplum
11-18-2006, 04:13 PM
A guy like Oswalt keeps the ball in the park in an even smaller park than GAB. Aaron needs to find a way to get his SLGA below .425 before he can even be mentioned in the same breath with Webb, Carpenter, Oswalt in Cy Young discussions. But at age 28, I'm not banking on it. He's a nice arm, but Bobby Cox's praise is just silly, honestly.

Well, that kind of proves my point. Any pitcher who can be logically compared, even unfavorably, to Roy Oswalt and yet doesn't get a single vote for the Cy Young and is looked on by some people as "not very good" is underrated.

I honestly think that Oswalt is one of the best pitchers I've ever seen. Underrated in his own right.

Falls City Beer
11-18-2006, 05:41 PM
Well, that kind of proves my point. Any pitcher who can be logically compared, even unfavorably, to Roy Oswalt and yet doesn't get a single vote for the Cy Young and is looked on by some people as "not very good" is underrated.

I honestly think that Oswalt is one of the best pitchers I've ever seen. Underrated in his own right.

I'm operating on the conception of Harang on this site as a bona fide ace. I don't see it. He's an exceptionally strong #2 pitcher.

vaticanplum
11-18-2006, 05:49 PM
I'm operating on the conception of Harang on this site as a bona fide ace. I don't see it. He's an exceptionally strong #2 pitcher.

Oh, I agree with that. He's presently our ace but not an ace. Hence,

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