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WVRedsFan
11-14-2006, 08:46 PM
For a long time, I've looked forward to the winter meetings because, even with O'Brien or Bowden, the anticipation of who the Reds could acquire to help the team was almost unbearable. This year, I tremble in fear.

It's unfair to even pretend to know what Krivsky will do this off-season, but if past performance is any indication, we're heading toward a pitching and defense heavy lineup. There is nothing wrong with pitching and defense, in fact, you need large doses of both to win, but do you forsake offense for those two attributes? If Krivsky continues the philosophy that an Austin Kearns and a Felipe Lopez is worth a Majewski and a Bray without regard for runs needed, will the Reds be worth going to see? I wonder...

If the rumors are true about Adam Dunn being shopped, and I think he is, some team will take him for pitching prospects (forget a good pitcher--they're in short supply). That would mean that Krivsky will have given up potentially 280 runs and 75-80 HRs in less than a year. It will take more than prospects to make up that huge deficit.

So, while many cheer and clap at the prospect of Adam Dunn leaving, I can't help but wonder what this franchise will become in the future. While other teams swing for the short fences at GAB, we'll be moving the runner over, bunting, and hitting sacrifice flies in mass. Nothing in particular wrong with that if you have enough of them, but an outfield of Denorfia, Freel, and the infamous player to be named later does not make me wish for the season to start. The infield prospects leave with the same feeling. Will the pitching really be significantly better? It sure wasn't last year after the trade. What eveidence do we have to prove it will be after the meetings?

And for all the wonderful things BC has done for our outlook, the team still finished under .500. Yes, I'll give him time, but pledging your love to a manager who has yet to win and a rookie GM who still has a lot of explaining to do, leaves me wondering what in the heck is going on?

Like I said, I temble in fear...

RedLegSuperStar
11-14-2006, 08:58 PM
I'll add to this thread with: ESPN.com


Before Florida parts with Willis, the club will try to move pitchers such as Sergio Mitre, Jason Vargas or Yusmeiro Petit.

I'd personally ask what it would take to get Vargas and Petit. Vargas Could become our 4th-5th starter.. yes he had a rough year last season. Never really had the confidence he had in '05. Petit could either be a starter as well or purhaps groomed into a closer. Either or I'd like to see the Reds inquire about them. I wouldn't know what it would take to pry them away and I know Florida isn't into spending money. Maybe we could work a deal with another team an have a 3 way deal.

Cedric
11-14-2006, 09:15 PM
For a long time, I've looked forward to the winter meetings because, even with O'Brien or Bowden, the anticipation of who the Reds could acquire to help the team was almost unbearable. This year, I tremble in fear.

It's unfair to even pretend to know what Krivsky will do this off-season, but if past performance is any indication, we're heading toward a pitching and defense heavy lineup. There is nothing wrong with pitching and defense, in fact, you need large doses of both to win, but do you forsake offense for those two attributes? If Krivsky continues the philosophy that an Austin Kearns and a Felipe Lopez is worth a Majewski and a Bray without regard for runs needed, will the Reds be worth going to see? I wonder...

If the rumors are true about Adam Dunn being shopped, and I think he is, some team will take him for pitching prospects (forget a good pitcher--they're in short supply). That would mean that Krivsky will have given up potentially 280 runs and 75-80 HRs in less than a year. It will take more than prospects to make up that huge deficit.

So, while many cheer and clap at the prospect of Adam Dunn leaving, I can't help but wonder what this franchise will become in the future. While other teams swing for the short fences at GAB, we'll be moving the runner over, bunting, and hitting sacrifice flies in mass. Nothing in particular wrong with that if you have enough of them, but an outfield of Denorfia, Freel, and the infamous player to be named later does not make me wish for the season to start. The infield prospects leave with the same feeling. Will the pitching really be significantly better? It sure wasn't last year after the trade. What eveidence do we have to prove it will be after the meetings?

And for all the wonderful things BC has done for our outlook, the team still finished under .500. Yes, I'll give him time, but pledging your love to a manager who has yet to win and a rookie GM who still has a lot of explaining to do, leaves me wondering what in the heck is going on?

Like I said, I temble in fear...

If you tremble now what have you been doing for the last ten years? You should be curled up in a ball somewhere.

WVRedsFan
11-14-2006, 09:18 PM
If you tremble now what have you been doing for the last ten years? You should be curled up in a ball somewhere.

You don't want to know...

I'd rather be excited by homeruns and offensive splendor than to be bored to tears with slap hitters. It's my problem, but that's the way it is.

schroomytunes
11-14-2006, 09:45 PM
I think Florida is in a position that they can add a little bit of salary, they played almost .500 ball most of the season and have some issues that they should address. So how about this winter trade proposal.

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Todd Coffey, Elizardo Ramirez, and Edwin Encarnacion

Marlins trade: Miguel Cabrera, Jeremy Hrmida, and Scott Olsen

why it works for the Marlins-they get a power hitting OBP machine in Dunn, get bullpen help in Lizard and Coffey and get a good young up and comer at 3rd base in EE, all the while not adding much salary with the loss of Cabrera.

why it works for the Reds-They get a power hitting young 3b with better defensive skills who can bat cleanup, they get a young #4 starter in Olsen who will solidify their rotation, and get a prospect in Hrmida who will get a chance to play everyday in LF.

--The Reds can then address the bullpen, OF, SS, and Bench depth in the offseason FA market.
---ideas...Chad Bradford(pen) Aaron Fultz(pen) Alex Gonzalez(SS) David Delucci(OF) Juan Pierre(OF) Craig Wilson(1b/of)-all these can be bought much more cheaply than you think.

flyer85
11-14-2006, 10:47 PM
Cabrera is one of the worst defensive 3Bs in all of baseball, doesn't make him a bad player. It just it what it is.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/2006_national_league_gold_gloves_as_i_see_it/

johngalt
11-14-2006, 11:19 PM
I really don't see any way the Marlins want done. Because of their park, they're going to value outfield defense and range even more than most teams, and they've already shown a propensity toward young, quick, cheap talent.

paulrichjr
11-14-2006, 11:50 PM
For a long time, I've looked forward to the winter meetings because, even with O'Brien or Bowden, the anticipation of who the Reds could acquire to help the team was almost unbearable. This year, I tremble in fear.

It's unfair to even pretend to know what Krivsky will do this off-season, but if past performance is any indication, we're heading toward a pitching and defense heavy lineup. There is nothing wrong with pitching and defense, in fact, you need large doses of both to win, but do you forsake offense for those two attributes? If Krivsky continues the philosophy that an Austin Kearns and a Felipe Lopez is worth a Majewski and a Bray without regard for runs needed, will the Reds be worth going to see? I wonder...

If the rumors are true about Adam Dunn being shopped, and I think he is, some team will take him for pitching prospects (forget a good pitcher--they're in short supply). That would mean that Krivsky will have given up potentially 280 runs and 75-80 HRs in less than a year. It will take more than prospects to make up that huge deficit.

So, while many cheer and clap at the prospect of Adam Dunn leaving, I can't help but wonder what this franchise will become in the future. While other teams swing for the short fences at GAB, we'll be moving the runner over, bunting, and hitting sacrifice flies in mass. Nothing in particular wrong with that if you have enough of them, but an outfield of Denorfia, Freel, and the infamous player to be named later does not make me wish for the season to start. The infield prospects leave with the same feeling. Will the pitching really be significantly better? It sure wasn't last year after the trade. What eveidence do we have to prove it will be after the meetings?

And for all the wonderful things BC has done for our outlook, the team still finished under .500. Yes, I'll give him time, but pledging your love to a manager who has yet to win and a rookie GM who still has a lot of explaining to do, leaves me wondering what in the heck is going on?

Like I said, I temble in fear...

I think you and I have the same fears. While everyone seems to want to give WayneK a chance I am one who feels that he can't be trusted. (Of course my feeling started when I heard John Allen liked the guy) I hope I am wrong but I'm not sure that the list of worst Reds GMs ever won't have WayneK 2nd or 3rd by this time next winter.

cincyinco
11-15-2006, 12:11 AM
Its much easier in this game to grow your own homegrown offensive/positional talent than your own pitching talent. This organization is the epitome of proof of that. And you can find that positional talent relatively easily on the FA market or through trades. Much more difficult for the Reds market to do that with pitching.

I don't know if Krivsky's philosophy is the answer, but something in this organization's direction needs to be changed. And that might mean sending out some of the offense in the short term if it means we can collect pitching...

In regards to the Marlin's trading Olsen.. he's top of the rotation stuff, I dont see that happening.. Let alone taking on Dunn's sizeable contract.

Spring~Fields
11-15-2006, 12:17 AM
And for all the wonderful things BC has done for our outlook, the team still finished under .500. Yes, I'll give him time, but pledging your love to a manager who has yet to win and a rookie GM who still has a lot of explaining to do, leaves me wondering what in the heck is going on?

Like I said, I temble in fear...

With the market for FA players appearing to be much higher than expected I don't think that the Reds will do any serious spending on the FA market. I really will be surprised if they do any.
I believe that they will try to make changes through some trades or pickups along the same patterns as we saw them do last year with that level of player. I do think that they will attempt to unload some of the higher salaries and that WK is going to try and piece meal it again.

paulrichjr
11-15-2006, 12:34 AM
With the market for FA players appearing to be much higher than expected I don't think that the Reds will do any serious spending on the FA market. I really will be surprised if they do any.
I believe that they will try to make changes through some trades or pickups along the same patterns as we saw them do last year with that level of player. I do think that they will attempt to unload some of the higher salaries and that WK is going to try and piece meal it again.


My son thinks the Reds should sign Soriano to play second and move Phillips to SS. I was 11 once also....

toledodan
11-15-2006, 12:46 AM
My son thinks the Reds should sign Soriano to play second and move Phillips to SS. I was 11 once also....



i like how your son thinks!:thumbup: LETS GIT R DONE!:laugh:

ramp101
11-15-2006, 01:29 AM
Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Todd Coffey, Elizardo Ramirez, and Edwin Encarnacion

Marlins trade: Miguel Cabrera, Jeremy Hrmida, and Scott Olsen

why it works for the Marlins-they get a power hitting OBP machine in Dunn, get bullpen help in Lizard and Coffey and get a good young up and comer at 3rd base in EE, all the while not adding much salary with the loss of Cabrera.


That would be an absolutely terrible trade by the Marlins, everything considered.

WVRedsFan
11-15-2006, 01:32 AM
I think you and I have the same fears. While everyone seems to want to give WayneK a chance I am one who feels that he can't be trusted. (Of course my feeling started when I heard John Allen liked the guy) I hope I am wrong but I'm not sure that the list of worst Reds GMs ever won't have WayneK 2nd or 3rd by this time next winter.

I guardedly tend to agree with you on Krivsky, but he can turn it around if he club starts winning consistently. To me, his moves are a crap shoot. One time you get Bronson Arroyo and another you get Rick Mejewski. One time you get rid of Willy Mo and the next you trade two starters. It's a crap shoot.

I know a lot of sportswriters across the southeast, most of which are motorsports writers, but some of them are rabid baseball fans. The trade is almost universally viewed as a veteran GM fleecing a rookie GM. The Pena for Arroyo trade and the acquisition of Phillips and Ross are considered luck. One of the writers, a Red Sox fan, told me recently that everyone in baseball knew that Everyday Eddie was having arm problems but Krivsky. Same for Mejewski.

But like any number of washed up coaches and athletes, Krivsky still has a chance to redeem himself starting this winter. I hope he makes me eat crow.

BCubb2003
11-15-2006, 02:43 AM
It might be wishful thinking on my part, but I think we can put Wayne's deals into separate categories: Long-term plans that become pleasant surprises, as in Arroyo, Phillips and Ross, and desperate deals for any warm body that can it to the bullpen by gametime.

Spring~Fields
11-15-2006, 04:37 AM
My son thinks the Reds should sign Soriano to play second and move Phillips to SS. I was 11 once also....

Sounds like your son is remarkable, a proactive, can do kind of a guy that might understand the free market system better than most. Perhaps he realizes that certain baseball commodities are not going to be going down in price and that he finds it reasonable to speculate that they will only continue to escalate as his charts indicate that they have historically. The older people become the more risk adverse they are, so an 11 year old might be right.

Ron Madden
11-15-2006, 05:26 AM
It might be wishful thinking on my part, but I think we can put Wayne's deals into separate categories: Long-term plans that become pleasant surprises, as in Arroyo, Phillips and Ross, and desperate deals for any warm body that can it to the bullpen by gametime.

That's one way to look at it BCubb, but I share the same fear as WVRedsFan.

Wayne cashed in two of his most valeued trading chips in an act of desperation. Will that move ever pay off? Time will tell, looks bad now.

Wayne Kriviski and Jerry Narron are on the same page in the recognition and evaluation of talent and skill sets. That kinda worries me.

RFS62
11-15-2006, 02:33 PM
It might be wishful thinking on my part, but I think we can put Wayne's deals into separate categories: Long-term plans that become pleasant surprises, as in Arroyo, Phillips and Ross, and desperate deals for any warm body that can it to the bullpen by gametime.


Good points.

Last season was pretty volatile. An early good start made us contenders and it changed the sensibilities of the front office.

I have a feeling that Wayne will turn over cards relentlessly, looking for incremental improvement whenever possible.

The debate has raged on ad infinitum since "the trade".

Let's see what he can do this off season.

dougdirt
11-15-2006, 07:01 PM
While Kearns/Lopez/Dunn may have lost offense, its not like we just arent playing guys in their spots. Players will be playing in their positions and will offset some of the loss. Odds that we can replace all that offense? Not good. Odds that we will need to? Not good either. If we can upgrade defense of Dunn and Lopez, that is a large swing in runs right there. If we get some pitching back for Dunn that is decent, there is another swing in runs. Then you just add in what the guy who replaces him brings and the run offset is not as difficult to overcome.

Falls City Beer
11-15-2006, 07:05 PM
Let me echo paulrichjr's sentiment about being disturbed by John Allen's liking of Krivsky.

Bad mojo. Double bad.