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View Full Version : Gammons reports reds sign Alex Gonzalez



captainmorgan07
11-18-2006, 03:01 PM
can't remember the amount but i know it was 3 year deal just saw it on bottom line of espn

cincy09
11-18-2006, 03:03 PM
just heard 3 years 14 mil on the radio

cinredsfan2000
11-18-2006, 03:04 PM
three-year, $14 million deal

flyer85
11-18-2006, 03:06 PM
at least we didn't trade for one. safe to say the chance of RA coming back is nil.

cinredsfan2000
11-18-2006, 03:06 PM
Looks like we got our guy. Now where does wayne K go? trade dunn? or do we sign one of the overpriced 2nd tier pitchers ? None of those guys are Ground ball pitchers are they?

Wyatt Earp
11-18-2006, 03:07 PM
I think this is a great signing.

flyer85
11-18-2006, 03:07 PM
now they need to address CF

OnBaseMachine
11-18-2006, 03:08 PM
This organization just continues to get dumber and dumber. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it does. .299 OBP last year for Gonzalez. Awful. And you just know Narron will bat him second.

Wayne Krivsky has managed to turn this team from a offensive juggernaut to one of the worst hitting teams in baseball in less than a year. Impressive.

Slyder
11-18-2006, 03:08 PM
Looks like we got our guy. Now where does wayne K go? trade dunn? or do we sign one of the overpriced 2nd tier pitchers ? None of those guys are Ground ball pitchers are they?

Padilla is. Last time I looked his GB/FB ratio was around 1.1 I think.

vaticanplum
11-18-2006, 03:09 PM
:jump:

Slyder
11-18-2006, 03:10 PM
Bring in a big bat for RF and/or CF (depending on what the team wants to do with Griffey) and you still have a good potential for a lineup... maybe not the offensive juggernaut we are use to but few teams are able to match what the reds have had the last few years.

mound_patrol
11-18-2006, 03:10 PM
I really like this move, very solid. Good first step to this offseason. Can't wait to see where we go next

captainmorgan07
11-18-2006, 03:11 PM
this signing sures up are defense in the infield gonzalez has good range good arm and is a web gem waiting to happen

dunner13
11-18-2006, 03:15 PM
This is a nice move, gonzalez really helps the defense. We need one more SP, and OF I think bray can be our closer. So the question is do we sign free agents or can we fill both those holes by trading dunn.

Slyder
11-18-2006, 03:22 PM
According to ESPN.com Vincente Padilla has a career GB/FB ratio of 1.45. Last 5 years look like this:

(yr: Team GB/FB ERA Rec.
2006: Texas 1.17 4.50 15-10 33GS 200 IP
2005: Philadelphia 1.25 4.71 9-12 27GS 147 IP
2004: Philadelphia 1.25 4.53 7-7 20GS 115.1 IP (I think he might have been injured a large portion of the year and tried to pitch through it early)
2003: Philadelphia 1.32 3.62 14-12 32GS 208.2 IP
2002: Philadelphia 1.98 3.28 14-11 32GS 206.0 IP

Has experience playing in band boxes, seems to do a good job of making people hit it on the ground. With our defense as its shaping up its worth the risk.

Tom Servo
11-18-2006, 03:23 PM
This organization just continues to get dumber and dumber. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it does. .299 OBP last year for Gonzalez. Awful. And you just know Narron will bat him second.

Wayne Krivsky has managed to turn this team from a offensive juggernaut to one of the worst hitting teams in baseball in less than a year. Impressive.
Because all of those homeruns were winning us so many games, right?

Matt700wlw
11-18-2006, 03:26 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2667193

Rex Argos
11-18-2006, 03:26 PM
You don't have to score 11 runs a game, if you can catch the ball.

jmac
11-18-2006, 03:27 PM
This organization just continues to get dumber and dumber. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it does. .299 OBP last year for Gonzalez. Awful. And you just know Narron will bat him second.

Wayne Krivsky has managed to turn this team from a offensive juggernaut to one of the worst hitting teams in baseball in less than a year. Impressive.

true this team will look different offensively.However , people forget this team went into a major slump for the last month.with decent #'s during that stretch,our offense would have looked alot more respectable.You would have to think Dunn and EE if not traded will supply 200-230 rbi.Jr would supply 70-90.
This of cousre barring trades.
most teams have at least a big 3 in the heart of the order.(stl=pujols,rolen,edmonds) which we would have in the above mentioned.
i still would like to see another stick but overall, i like the signing.

Matt700wlw
11-18-2006, 03:27 PM
This organization just continues to get dumber and dumber. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it does. .299 OBP last year for Gonzalez. Awful. And you just know Narron will bat him second.

Wayne Krivsky has managed to turn this team from a offensive juggernaut to one of the worst hitting teams in baseball in less than a year. Impressive.

Just curious....all offense and god awful defense/pitching got this team where, exactly?

mound_patrol
11-18-2006, 03:32 PM
Just curious....all offense and god awful defense/pitching got this team where, exactly?

I agree Matt, the Reds may not look as sexy on the field next year without all the monsterous homeruns, but defense and pitching wins ballgames. We still have a lot of areas to fix, but this is a great first step in my opinion

flyer85
11-18-2006, 03:34 PM
a well rounded team wins ball games.

Matt700wlw
11-18-2006, 03:37 PM
more fat guys!!

:D

RFS62
11-18-2006, 03:41 PM
It's just the beginning.

Handofdeath
11-18-2006, 03:43 PM
Mark Belanger -Lifetime OBP .300 and 8 Gold Gloves
Dave Concepcion -Lifetime OBP .322 and 5 Gold Gloves

From ESPN:The Reds had a .979 fielding percentage and committed 128 errors in 2006 -- second-worst in the NL behind the Nationals in both categories.

RedsManRick
11-18-2006, 04:07 PM
Just curious....all offense and god awful defense/pitching got this team where, exactly?

You're right. Godawful offense and good defense/pitching is going to win us even more games... Better defense and pitching is great. But sacrificing offense from a team that scored 749 runs last year is not the recipe for success.

Matt700wlw
11-18-2006, 04:13 PM
You're right...this will conclude the offseason for the Reds.

All done.

Over.

Natty Redlocks
11-18-2006, 04:13 PM
It's better to hope for clutch hitting than to hope for clutch pitching or defense.

mound_patrol
11-18-2006, 04:14 PM
I wouldn't call Jr, Dunn, Ede, phillips in the middle of the lineup as Godawful. we won't be as strong offensively as we have been in the past, but we'll be a little bit better rounded

Handofdeath
11-18-2006, 04:21 PM
I understand that during Reds games they let the other team bat.;)

George Anderson
11-18-2006, 04:36 PM
One factor in acquiring Gonzales that hasnt been mentioned much is this guy has played on a World Series winner. I often thought last year that the Reds could badly use a savy veteran who has been thru a Pennant chase. Little things like this I think are invaluable!!

Gallen5862
11-18-2006, 04:50 PM
I really like this move. It upgrades the defense at Shortstop. The contract of 3 years 14 million is not that bad. Phillips gets to also stay at 2b. Now hopefully we can add some Pitching as well.

Handofdeath
11-18-2006, 04:50 PM
That is why I think the next signing should be Juan Pierre. The Reds would be as good defensively up the middle as any team in baseball. Extremely important IMO. A veteran presence in the Reds clubhouse is badly needed also. When the Reds are in the pennant race next year, having someone who has been there before and been on a winning team would be invaluable. Although the following piece was from a Boston writer it sheds some light on Gonzalez's ability as a shortstop.

November 02, 2006
Gonzo loses Gold Glove to Jeter (?!)
By Gordon Edes, Boston Globe Staff
Derek Jeter is a great player. There can be little debate. But Jeter may not even be the best-fielding shortstop in New York (hello, Jose Reyes).

Yet Thursday Jeter won his third straight Gold Glove at shortstop, beating out Alex Gonzalez of the Red Sox, who was merely the best fielding shortstop in Sox history, and who belongs in the same company as Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel among all-time great glovemen at short.

Jeter won even though he made more than twice as many errors as Gonzalez (15 to 7) and had a lower fielding percentage (.975 to .985)...

Falls City Beer
11-18-2006, 04:56 PM
That is why I think the next signing should be Juan Pierre. .

I honestly don't mean personal offense, but that is a flamingly bad idea.

They'd need 10 games to scratch out their first run of the season.

steig
11-18-2006, 04:57 PM
I like the idea of having a slick fielding shortstop. I wish we had just signed him to a two year deal but FAs are commanding a steep price this off seasonand if the Reds didn't get AG to this deal they probaly would have entered into next year with Phillips and Castro splitting time at short.

blumj
11-18-2006, 05:00 PM
You're right. Godawful offense and good defense/pitching is going to win us even more games... Better defense and pitching is great. But sacrificing offense from a team that scored 749 runs last year is not the recipe for success.
How exactly is replacing Royce Clayton with Alex Gonzalez "sacrificing offense"?

Falls City Beer
11-18-2006, 05:03 PM
How exactly is replacing Royce Clayton with Alex Gonzalez "sacrificing offense"?

That's a bit of a false dilemma (Clayton OR Gonzalez).

This signing has locked in a dreadful stick in a starting position. Clayton was never anything more than a backup.

Slyder
11-18-2006, 05:10 PM
I honestly don't mean personal offense, but that is a flamingly bad idea.

They'd need 10 games to scratch out their first run of the season.

I agree I have a stronger arm than Juan Pierre in CF. We have 3 options already that are better than Pierre (and at least 2 are cheaper). Freel, Denorfia, and a healthy Junior are all better offensive options and I believe Freel and Deno given a chance everyday would end up being even better defensively than Pierre.

Pierre outhit Freel by 20ish points. But Pierre's OBP of .330 was smoked by Freel's .360, Chris Denorfia's OBP ended up being .356 this past year.

Pierre's OPS was .717, Freel and Denorfia's were .762 and .724.

Freel made $1.3 mil, Denorfia the minimum, Pierre made $5,750,000 last year. And with the market the way it is I could very easily see him get the same amount. This time last year Pierre was asking for $6.5 mil from the Cubs after being acquired from the Marlins. Do we really want to go and throw that much money at him when we have at least 2 options similar if not better than he is already? And that doesnt even include what Hopper might be able to be a late bloomer and become a legit MLB player.

jamess697
11-18-2006, 05:11 PM
I believe you guys are jumping to conclusions, because the reds was awful at short last year. I believe that Gonzo is going to have a big year in our ball park next year, scoring about 80-90 runs and saving at least 30 runs. That is a huge! Plus you did you expect to get on the market this year? I think that the Reds targeted a quality player that improves our team.

So Far this is what our order looks like (more changes likely to happen)

RF Freel
1B Hatteberg
CF Griffey
3B Encarnacion
LF Dunn
C Ross
2B Phillips
SS Gonzalez

Slyder
11-18-2006, 05:13 PM
I believe you guys are jumping to conclusions, because the reds was awful at short last year. I believe that Gonzo is going to have a big year in our ball park next year, scoring about 80-90 runs and saving at least 30 runs. That is a huge! Plus you did you expect to get on the market this year? I think that the Reds targeted a quality player that improves our team.

So Far this is what our order looks like (more changes likely to happen)

RF Freel
1B Hatteberg
CF Griffey
3B Encarnacion
LF Dunn
C Ross
2B Phillips
SS Gonzalez

Flip Dunn and Hatteberg and I could "live with" that being the everyday offenes. I at this spot perfer Dunn in the 2 hole because his numbers last year were best when hitting there. Plus with the number of walks he draws is almost ideal for the 2 hole.

Handofdeath
11-18-2006, 05:15 PM
I honestly don't mean personal offense, but that is a flamingly bad idea.

They'd need 10 games to scratch out their first run of the season.

I don't take personal offense. I would ask if you are comfortable with a horrible defensive player in LF and an injury prone 37 year old in CF? I doubt Pierre will sign with the Reds anyways. The contract he wants seems to be 3 years/24 million. He's not worth that but in today's market...

Topcat
11-18-2006, 05:19 PM
I look at this deal as a step up over what was a glaring hole already. Now factor in somebody taking Larue's contract off our hands for a reasonable return and it is like the payroll has not even changed. Thus allowing the Red's to take on payroll for some added pop into the lineup.

reds44
11-18-2006, 05:24 PM
now they need to address CF
Yep.

I like the Gonzo singing, btw.

Slyder
11-18-2006, 05:24 PM
Just FYI on Pierre... You may want to turn your heads this will make you sick...

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/story/2006/11/14/184844/04
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2662062


The Giants, in the market for a center fielder, are moving along in discussions with Juan Pierre, the National League leader with 204 hits last season. The word in Naples is that Pierre could get a deal for three years and about $30 million -- if not from San Francisco, then somebody else."

If he gets this Dunn's contract looks like a steal.

reds44
11-18-2006, 05:27 PM
I am hoping and praying Votto steals Hatte's job in spring training.

I think we could use another outfield bat, unless we play Deno in CF. Playing Denorfia in RF hurts us offensively more then it helps us defensively. Now if you play him in CF, that is a different story.

Redmachine2003
11-18-2006, 05:29 PM
I always liked Alex when he was with the Marlins. Seemed like he always had some big hits and Homers.

Handofdeath
11-18-2006, 05:32 PM
Just FYI on Pierre... You may want to turn your heads this will make you sick...

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/story/2006/11/14/184844/04
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2662062


If he gets this Dunn's contract looks like a steal.

Not if his stats continue their freefall.

BigRed
11-18-2006, 05:35 PM
Bottom line, shortstop traditionally has not been a big offensive position. But it is a very important defensive position. No one questions this guy's defense. For that reason, I say it is a very good signing. We have not had a good defensive SS since Barry. We are now awesome defensively up the middle with Gonzalez and Phillips. If Gonzo hits 260 and plays great defense, I will be very happy. Now let's see what happens next to improve the offense and the pitching. Let's give Wayne some more time this offseason to see what else he does. We all have seen that he is not afraid to make a move.

edabbs44
11-18-2006, 05:41 PM
Seriously though, did it really take that much money to sign a guy who can't hit?

Here is Wayne's quote after the July debacle. I'm guessing we see a quote like this during the signing announcement. My changes are in parenthesis:

Said Krivsky: "We had to upgrade the bullpen (defense). You can see by the price we paid what the market is. I think for us to compete in the second half (2007), we had to upgrade the bullpen (defense). It's very difficult to get quality pitchers (defenders) for the back end of the game (middle infield) like a Bray and Majewski (Gonzalez). We think they're (he's) two (one) key pieces for our bullpen (defense)."

Topcat
11-18-2006, 06:32 PM
Seriously though, did it really take that much money to sign a guy who can't hit?

Here is Wayne's quote after the July debacle. I'm guessing we see a quote like this during the signing announcement. My changes are in parenthesis:

Said Krivsky: "We had to upgrade the bullpen (defense). You can see by the price we paid what the market is. I think for us to compete in the second half (2007), we had to upgrade the bullpen (defense). It's very difficult to get quality pitchers (defenders) for the back end of the game (middle infield) like a Bray and Majewski (Gonzalez). We think they're (he's) two (one) key pieces for our bullpen (defense)."


My question is this? Do you dispute that ? Second of all this cost the Red's only $$$ and with the new satelite deal $$$$ coming in, I can not see any down side to this deal at all.

Handofdeath
11-18-2006, 06:45 PM
Seriously though, did it really take that much money to sign a guy who can't hit?

Here is Wayne's quote after the July debacle. I'm guessing we see a quote like this during the signing announcement. My changes are in parenthesis:

Said Krivsky: "We had to upgrade the bullpen (defense). You can see by the price we paid what the market is. I think for us to compete in the second half (2007), we had to upgrade the bullpen (defense). It's very difficult to get quality pitchers (defenders) for the back end of the game (middle infield) like a Bray and Majewski (Gonzalez). We think they're (he's) two (one) key pieces for our bullpen (defense)."

The only other free agent shortstop that the Reds could have signed was Julio Lugo. Lugo is going to make at least twice what Gonzalez will make. Is Lugo twice the player? No. Gonzalez should have won the GG in the AL this season. Lugo is just not as good defensively. As far as hitting goes, Lugo's career OPS is just 58 points higher than Gonzalez. The Reds got Gold Glove defense and slightly less offense for half the price of what Lugo would cost and who's to say Gonzalez won't be better this year playing in GABP? Look at Gonzalez's 2003-2004 seasons, he's got some pop in his bat. You can't have fantasy studs at every position offensively. Look at Cesar Geronimo's offensive numbers the BRM years. Not real good but the Reds had a Gold Glove centerfielder. Look at Johnny Bench in 1976. Pretty wretched OPS there but you have the best defensive catcher ever behind the plate. So you accept the numbers and know that God help the runner who wants to steal on Johnny Bench. Hitting, pitching, and defense are all equal parts of a winning franchise. You can't sacrifice defense for offense all the time. And when you do sacrifice the defense, the pitching suffers. It's all equally important. Wayne Krivsky made a smart signing, the kind a good GM makes.

Patrick Bateman
11-18-2006, 06:50 PM
I like this signing. 5M per year is a decent deal for Gonzo. The main problem is 3 years, but in today's market, even 35 year old relievers get 3 year contracts. Hopefully Gonzo's range doesn't go too far south for the remainder of the contract.

Like others have said, if Krivsky is trying this hard to improve the defense, then Griffey better be moved out of CF. Otherwise our defense is still going to be a problem.

It's a bit of risky deal, but based on the alternatives to play 2nd/SS, I think this move helps us the most and isn't terribly expensive. Plus we don't have to move Phillips to SS, which will also give us a boost defensively at 2nd base compared to the alternatives.

flyer85
11-18-2006, 06:52 PM
WK addressed the SS position, which he had to do. He obviously decided that a trade wasn't the way to go and he probably took the best available option. We'll see how it works out.

edabbs44
11-18-2006, 06:59 PM
The only other free agent shortstop that the Reds could have signed was Julio Lugo. Lugo is going to make at least twice what Gonzalez will make. Is Lugo twice the player? No. Gonzalez should have won the GG in the AL this season. Lugo is just not as good defensively. As far as hitting goes, Lugo's career OPS is just 58 points higher than Gonzalez. The Reds got Gold Glove defense and slightly less offense for half the price of what Lugo would cost and who's to say Gonzalez won't be better this year playing in GABP? Look at Gonzalez's 2003-2004 seasons, he's got some pop in his bat. You can't have fantasy studs at every position offensively. Look at Cesar Geronimo's offensive numbers the BRM years. Not real good but the Reds had a Gold Glove centerfielder. Look at Johnny Bench in 1976. Pretty wretched OPS there but you have the best defensive catcher ever behind the plate. So you accept the numbers and know that God help the runner who wants to steal on Johnny Bench. Hitting, pitching, and defense are all equal parts of a winning franchise. You can't sacrifice defense for offense all the time. And when you do sacrifice the defense, the pitching suffers. It's all equally important. Wayne Krivsky made a smart signing, the kind a good GM makes.

With all due respect, give me a break.

1) No problem with Geronimo, but let me know who fills the roles of Morgan, Bench, Rose, Perez and Foster on the 2007 team.

2) In 2004, Gonzalez had 23 HRs and hit .232. How many .250 hitters does this team need? Is there anyone on the team right now who we can say has a more than 50% chance of hitting .300?

3) Do you honestly believe that Lugo is going to get $10 million per year?

4) I don't have as much as a problem with Gonzalez as I do with the contract offer. $5 million per? That's a lot of money for a team with payroll constraints. AGon won't help Kyle Lohse on the mound, unless he can play in the bleachers.

edabbs44
11-18-2006, 07:01 PM
My question is this? Do you dispute that ? Second of all this cost the Red's only $$$ and with the new satelite deal $$$$ coming in, I can not see any down side to this deal at all.

No downside? Who is pitching and hitting this year? Unless they all of a sudden will be boosting payroll by $50 mil, I see this contract hindering filling the other roles.

redsfanmia
11-18-2006, 07:06 PM
This organization just continues to get dumber and dumber. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it does. .299 OBP last year for Gonzalez. Awful. And you just know Narron will bat him second.

Wayne Krivsky has managed to turn this team from a offensive juggernaut to one of the worst hitting teams in baseball in less than a year. Impressive.

There is more to the game than just offense, Gonzalez is a very good defender and he plays the most important defensive position. Now if Wayne can get a centerfielder who can flat out go get it he improved our pitching staff without getting a pitcher.

Patrick Bateman
11-18-2006, 07:15 PM
Now if Wayne can get a centerfielder who can flat out go get it he improved our pitching staff without getting a pitcher.

He's already got one.

redsmetz
11-18-2006, 07:21 PM
I am hoping and praying Votto steals Hatte's job in spring training.

I think we could use another outfield bat, unless we play Deno in CF. Playing Denorfia in RF hurts us offensively more then it helps us defensively. Now if you play him in CF, that is a different story.

I'm not of the mind, as many are here on RZ, that it's a given the Hatteberg will suck next year. I understand that he's advancing in age and it's getting to be late in his career.

Now that said, I don't necessarily think he'll be the starter all next season. I fully expect Votto (and Homer too) to start in Louisville out of spring training and perhaps debut during the '07 season. I still think Wayne doesn't much care for skipping levels. We'll see if that is what happens.

redsmetz
11-18-2006, 07:29 PM
Gonzelez hit 23 homers in '04? The Reds have only had two shortstops with that many or more - Lopez in '05 and Larkin with 35 in 1996. Twenty-three dingers is not shabby.

RedsManRick
11-18-2006, 07:30 PM
The only other free agent shortstop that the Reds could have signed was Julio Lugo. Lugo is going to make at least twice what Gonzalez will make. Is Lugo twice the player? No. Gonzalez should have won the GG in the AL this season. Lugo is just not as good defensively. As far as hitting goes, Lugo's career OPS is just 58 points higher than Gonzalez. The Reds got Gold Glove defense and slightly less offense for half the price of what Lugo would cost and who's to say Gonzalez won't be better this year playing in GABP? Look at Gonzalez's 2003-2004 seasons, he's got some pop in his bat. You can't have fantasy studs at every position offensively. Look at Cesar Geronimo's offensive numbers the BRM years. Not real good but the Reds had a Gold Glove centerfielder. Look at Johnny Bench in 1976. Pretty wretched OPS there but you have the best defensive catcher ever behind the plate. So you accept the numbers and know that God help the runner who wants to steal on Johnny Bench. Hitting, pitching, and defense are all equal parts of a winning franchise. You can't sacrifice defense for offense all the time. And when you do sacrifice the defense, the pitching suffers. It's all equally important. Wayne Krivsky made a smart signing, the kind a good GM makes.

You're right. You can't get every thing from every position, and if you're going to go for defense only somehwere, SS is a good place to do it. However, the problem is that Krivksy current isn't getting the offense he'll need from 1B, nor RF (if Griffey moves there). Let's look at that '76 team (which scored 857 runs(



Pos Player BA OBP SLG OPS SB CS OPS+
--- -------------------+ +----- +----- +----- +--- +--- +----+
2B Joe Morgan 0.320 0.444 0.576 1.020 60 9 187
OF George Foster 0.306 0.364 0.530 0.894 17 3 150
3B Pete Rose 0.323 0.404 0.450 0.854 9 5 141
OF Ken Griffey 0.336 0.401 0.450 0.851 34 11 140
OF Cesar Geronimo 0.307 0.382 0.414 0.796 22 5 125
1B Tony Perez 0.260 0.328 0.452 0.780 10 5 118
C Johnny Bench 0.234 0.348 0.394 0.742 13 2 109
SS Dave Concepcion 0.281 0.335 0.401 0.736 21 10 107


Notice the absolute machine that is Joe Morgan. Dunn's career OPS was closer to Bench's in 76 the Morgan. Notice that everybody's OPS was above league average, including Bench's. League average OPS was .709. Notice that 5 guys got on base at a .362 clip or better. That team had all world defenders at 4 positions: C, 1B, 2B, SS. In fact, if you look at that team, you'll see it may have been one of the most well balanced Reds offenses in team history.

Meanwhile, Alex Gonzalez, in his best year, has an OPS+ of 100 (exactly league average). His career OPS+ is 78 -- 22% worse than the league average. This isn't a guy who is just below average, or mediocre, offensively. He's plain ol' bad -- and most defensive metrics show that he's not as good a fielder as his reputation. I know our options are limited. I know he improves our defense. But I'm not yet convinced that the value he adds defensively makes up for his offensive shortcomings. I'm willing to see the full picture of WK's offseason. However, if we're unable to get another competent arm because we're 5 million short, I'll be the first to complain.

Topcat
11-18-2006, 07:36 PM
Any way to get a look at how Alex has done in Cincinnati's park?

TOBTTReds
11-18-2006, 07:38 PM
Atleast we picked up an all-glove guy at a position that you need a great glove. Although I still don't like it.

Matt700wlw
11-18-2006, 07:43 PM
Atleast we picked up an all-glove guy at a position that you need a great glove. Although I still don't like it.

You admit they needed a great glove in a key defensive postion....and they got that...but you don't like it.

Am I missing something? :dunno:

Krusty
11-18-2006, 07:50 PM
You admit they needed a great glove in a key defensive postion....and they got that...but you don't like it.

Am I missing something? :dunno:


Yep. We Reds fans have been spoiled by 30 years of watching Davey Concepcion and Barry Larkin play the position and didn't realize how good we had it until now.

Gonzalez will be fine. A slick fielding shortstop will help out the pitching staff, and lord knows this pitching staff can use all the help it can get.

Matt700wlw
11-18-2006, 07:51 PM
Yep. We Reds fans have been spoiled by 30 years of watching Davey Concepcion and Barry Larkin play the position and didn't realize how good we had it until now.



Fair point.

We were blessed with HOF caliber players there forever.....now back to reality :D

dunner13
11-18-2006, 07:59 PM
Last year we had horrible defense at short. So this year we bring in a gold glove shortstop, lets say having him drops the pitchers ERA down half a run. Would that make this deal well worth it, even if he doesnt hit well? Think of all the erros that lopez/castro had then all the balls they couldnt get to that well now be outs. To me this is a great deal, I think he will help the pitchers alot and I gonzalez will hit just fine in GABP.

edabbs44
11-18-2006, 08:21 PM
Gonzalez will be fine. A slick fielding shortstop will help out the pitching staff, and lord knows this pitching staff can use all the help it can get.

Personally, I'd rather get pitching to help the pitching staff.

edabbs44
11-18-2006, 08:23 PM
Last year we had horrible defense at short. So this year we bring in a gold glove shortstop, lets say having him drops the pitchers ERA down half a run. Would that make this deal well worth it, even if he doesnt hit well? Think of all the erros that lopez/castro had then all the balls they couldnt get to that well now be outs. To me this is a great deal, I think he will help the pitchers alot and I gonzalez will hit just fine in GABP.

There is no way in God's name that a shortstop could drop a staff's ERA down by a half run.

RedsManRick
11-18-2006, 08:26 PM
If he could bring down pitcher's ERA by half a run, heck yeah. However, lets say he saves us 20 runs over what we got last year (which would be gold glove caliber defense).

So, let's say we go from 800 ER to 780 ER. That would be .12. Now considering that he'll likely cost us runs offensively compared to the production we got out of Lopez, Aurilia, and Clayton, and you can see that the best case effect is a very small positive, if not a step back. It really comes down to his offense. If he can be decent (.700+ OPS), it's a decent addition. If not, it's not.

Natty Redlocks
11-18-2006, 08:38 PM
Any way to get a look at how Alex has done in Cincinnati's park?

Not bad (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6077/career_by_all_batting_splits.html)

Pretty small sample size though.

RichRed
11-18-2006, 08:56 PM
I have been a critic of Krivsky since The Trade but I like this move, provided that:

1) Narron's smart enough to bat AG 8th (wouldn't bet the farm on it).

2) Krivsky realizes the team still needs offense. I keep reading that pitching and defense wins games, but pitchers don't hit very well and you can't get a base hit with a glove and runs don't just score themselves.

3) Griffey is moved to the corner and Denorfia plays CF - absolutely no need to overpay for Juan Pierre when pitching still has holes.

AG should improve the defense and maybe he smacks 20 or so HRs from the 8th spot. Sounds good to me.

wheels
11-18-2006, 09:09 PM
I won't be happy about this signing unless other moves are made.

If he's part of a scheme, I hope it's a good scheme, and I hope it's able to be executed.

It's a start.

If it's the end, it's gonna be a long season.

George Foster
11-18-2006, 10:18 PM
Hey, stat guys. It said on ESPN that Gonzalez's fielding percentage last year was .985. Can anybody tell me what was the combined fielding percentage of Lopez,Clayton, Castro, and Phillips at Short Stop? Then how many potential runs will it save us next year having Gonzo at SS in 07....thanks:thumbup:

vaticanplum
11-18-2006, 11:04 PM
R.I.P. SteelSD.

What happened to Steel? Is he ok?

Gallen5862
11-18-2006, 11:36 PM
What happened to Steel?

Patrick Bateman
11-18-2006, 11:52 PM
Hey, stat guys. It said on ESPN that Gonzalez's fielding percentage last year was .985. Can anybody tell me what was the combined fielding percentage of Lopez,Clayton, Castro, and Phillips at Short Stop? Then how many potential runs will it save us next year having Gonzo at SS in 07....thanks:thumbup:

Fielding percentage will tell you basically nothing about the fielding prowess of various players.

WVRedsFan
11-19-2006, 12:25 AM
It's just the beginning.

Out of the wilderness, a sane voice.

My prediction? This team will have two more new starters and two more pitchers on board. Who? You never know, but I know it's coming. How it will turn out, I don't know. I just know it's going to be different.

gm
11-19-2006, 12:58 AM
That team ('76 Reds) had all world defenders at 4 positions: C, 1B, 2B, SS.

I think you meant to say C, 2b, SS, CF.

M2
11-19-2006, 01:34 AM
I think you meant to say C, 2b, SS, CF.

And very little defense anywhere else. Of course that team got some offense from it up-the-middle positions as well.

Anyway, replace Jr. with a capable CF and the Reds suddenly have respectable up-the-middle defense. It's something. While it may not be the only thing the club needs, it's a case of the team actually fixing a problem. Haven't really seen any of that this century from the franchise.

Wheelhouse
11-19-2006, 05:01 AM
Yep. We Reds fans have been spoiled by 30 years of watching Davey Concepcion and Barry Larkin play the position and didn't realize how good we had it until now.

Gonzalez will be fine. A slick fielding shortstop will help out the pitching staff, and lord knows this pitching staff can use all the help it can get.

Agreed. We also get more of those great moments in a game where a hot defensive play after the Reds score makes the opposing team feel shut down...There have been way too few of those types of plays in recent years.

redsmetz
11-19-2006, 05:04 AM
Hey, stat guys. It said on ESPN that Gonzalez's fielding percentage last year was .985. Can anybody tell me what was the combined fielding percentage of Lopez,Clayton, Castro, and Phillips at Short Stop? Then how many potential runs will it save us next year having Gonzo at SS in 07....thanks:thumbup:

All shortstops for the Reds had a .964 Fielding Average (that includes Aurilia and Olmedo), that per baseball-reference.com - I have no clue as to how many runs that did or did not save though.

Wheelhouse
11-19-2006, 05:05 AM
And very little defense anywhere else. Of course that team got some offense from it up-the-middle positions as well.

Anyway, replace Jr. with a capable CF and the Reds suddenly have respectable up-the-middle defense. It's something. While it may not be the only thing the club needs, it's a case of the team actually fixing a problem. Haven't really seen any of that this century from the franchise.

You mean Rose, Perez, Griffey and Foster? Granted on Foster, but nonsense to the rest...not that they were world beaters with the glove, but those players were beyond reproach on the fundamentals.

redsfanfalcon
11-19-2006, 08:19 AM
They better not let him have #11.

marcshoe
11-19-2006, 08:40 AM
You mean Rose, Perez, Griffey and Foster? Granted on Foster, but nonsense to the rest...not that they were world beaters with the glove, but those players were beyond reproach on the fundamentals.

Wrong century. :)

fewfirstchoice
11-19-2006, 09:30 AM
The Reds have been a offensive team for the last 5 or 6 seasons and were has that got them,nowhere.I say whats so bad with trying it a different way under new ownership and a new front office.I say let WK run it his way and see if he can turn the ship around and get Cincy to the playoffs.Because everyone knows the offensive team we once were didnt get the job done.

fewfirstchoice
11-19-2006, 09:41 AM
Guys,guys,guys, you all are looking at this all wrong in respect to lineup.You all suspect that WK is done making moves and that is just absurd.The lineup your making up with the players your using,tear it up and dont even try to figure out who will be on the roster for opening day.Wk will trade and sign and trade and sign again to turn this roster around.You can bet your bottom dollar on this.WK roster will never be set in stone until the first pitch is thrown.

Big Daddy P
11-19-2006, 10:56 AM
I have extensive experience watching AG with the Marlins, and I can tell you with definitive words that are coming out of my mouth - he is one miserable presence to watch at the plate..and oh yeah, he can't hit worth a damn.

Yes he can flash some leather, but overall, you will see, he is someone you will suffer watching day in and day out.

I hope this is a bad dream or an alternative universe bit of news for all us die hard Red Legged fanatics. And I have been one for over 40 years!

Hear me now and hear me well...you will want to choke him by his miserable, depressing face sooner or later.

Krusty
11-19-2006, 10:59 AM
Guys,guys,guys, you all are looking at this all wrong in respect to lineup.You all suspect that WK is done making moves and that is just absurd.The lineup your making up with the players your using,tear it up and dont even try to figure out who will be on the roster for opening day.Wk will trade and sign and trade and sign again to turn this roster around.You can bet your bottom dollar on this.WK roster will never be set in stone until the first pitch is thrown.

Agree. And improving the defense is right up there on the list next to improving the starting rotation and finding a closer.

The outfield defense will be intriguing. Do they tell Junior to shift to RF while using Denorfia/Freel in center? And if Junior is reluctant to the move, how does Krivsky handle it?

Stay tuned.

Krusty
11-19-2006, 11:00 AM
I have extensive experience watching AG with the Marlins, and I can tell you with definitive words that are coming out of my mouth - he is one miserable presence to watch at the plate..and oh yeah, he can't hit worth a damn.

Yes he can flash some leather, but overall, you will see, he is someone you will suffer watching day in and day out.

I hope this is a bad dream or an alternative universe bit of news for all us die hard Red Legged fanatics. And I have been one for over 40 years!

Hear me now and hear me well...you will want to choke him by his miserable, depressing face sooner or later.

Reds can bat him eighth or even the ninth spot and I'll live with his miserable hitting. Late in the game, we can pinch hit for him and use Castro as his replacement.

RFS62
11-19-2006, 11:05 AM
Guys,guys,guys, you all are looking at this all wrong in respect to lineup.You all suspect that WK is done making moves and that is just absurd.The lineup your making up with the players your using,tear it up and dont even try to figure out who will be on the roster for opening day.Wk will trade and sign and trade and sign again to turn this roster around.You can bet your bottom dollar on this.WK roster will never be set in stone until the first pitch is thrown.



I agree.

PuffyPig
11-19-2006, 11:12 AM
I have extensive experience watching AG with the Marlins, and I can tell you with definitive words that are coming out of my mouth - he is one miserable presence to watch at the plate..and oh yeah, he can't hit worth a damn.

Yes he can flash some leather, but overall, you will see, he is someone you will suffer watching day in and day out.



It's funny how someone with an OPS of .700 "can't hit woth a damn" while someone with an OPS of .750 (Lopez) is considered a good hitter.

The difference between a .700 OPS and a .750 OPS is a single every 2 weeks.

Casey_21
11-19-2006, 11:23 AM
14 mill for a guy with a glove that cant hit??? I dont care HOW good the man can catch. I aint too keen on this addition.

Matt700wlw
11-19-2006, 11:47 AM
As screwed up as the market is this offseason, this is a pretty "cheap" deal.....

TOBTTReds
11-19-2006, 12:02 PM
14 mill for a guy with a glove that cant hit??? I dont care HOW good the man can catch. I aint too keen on this addition.

This is my opinion as well. Say it was a one year deal, I would have been OK. But give a GM 365 days to find a SS that can field, and not hit, you he will find one in the minors. I would much rather pay someone 380,000 than almost $5 mil to field well. A lot of guys can field well, but hitting at the SS position is a premium. I feel he can do the job a minor leaguer can. I would have hoped by 2008, Janish would be ready to step in and be a no-hit all-glove guy for cheap. I think this is a waste of money for 3 years. The consolation prize for me, is that he does have some pop, the rare times he gets on base.

fadetoblack2880
11-19-2006, 12:07 PM
i don't see where the team paying $14 million is impacting us too much. if ownership is willing to spend the money, go for it. i have no complaints if this team is trying to better themselves. i know its unlikely but he may have a career year next year. if the team passes on gonzalez and goes with castro/harris platoon at short, people would complain that krivsky should've signed gonzalez. it's a no win situation no matter what they seem to do. besides, it's not like the complaining on message boards is really factoring in on the decisions that the front office is making anyways.

blumj
11-19-2006, 12:14 PM
As screwed up as the market is this offseason, this is a pretty "cheap" deal.....
Lugo's really just a marginal overall upgrade, and he'll probably get more than twice as much.

Patpacillosjock
11-19-2006, 12:19 PM
Just curious....all offense and god awful defense/pitching got this team where, exactly?


ask Roger Clemens during his houston years what it feels like to lose games 1-0 or 2-0

i hate wayne krivsky.

RedsManRick
11-19-2006, 12:44 PM
From BP 2006 (before the 2006 season) on AG:

It took the Marlins nearly 900 games of Alex Gonzalez to get him to leave, and while he had a few stretches of adequacy, with his peak coinciding with the Marlins' championship in 2003. When that's someone ceiling, it's not a bad thing to just go. If Hanley Ramirez posts a .250 EQA and does an average job with the glove, he'll be an improvement over Gonzalez's occasional power.

From Dewan's The Fielding Bible:
Dewan used the most comprehensive data availlable from Baseball Info Solutions to create a plus/minus system which describes how many plays the player makes above/below the average player.


3-year SS Rankings:
1. Adam Everett (+76)
2. Jack Wilson (+50)
3. Jimmy Rollins (+40)
16. Alex Gonzalez (-1)
29. Angel Berroa (-59)
30. Derek Jeter (-64)
31. Michael Young (-73)

"Gonzalez is an underrated defender. His range and athleticism are top-notch,he has a powerful arm and can make throws from deep in the hole from his knees. He is excellent on the double play. Over the past few years, he and Luis Castillo have formed one of the most dynamic double play tandems in baseball."

Take that all for what you will.

Natty Redlocks
11-19-2006, 12:49 PM
i hate wayne krivsky.

If he were aware you existed, I'm sure Wayne Krivsky would find you delightful.

M2
11-19-2006, 02:24 PM
You mean Rose, Perez, Griffey and Foster? Granted on Foster, but nonsense to the rest...not that they were world beaters with the glove, but those players were beyond reproach on the fundamentals.

Perez was all right. Rose had a short arm and very little range at 3B, fortunately he had Concepcion to his left. Griffey was a far lesser fielder than a guy with his speed should have been. Toss in Foster and you wind up with generally poor defense on the corners and stellar defense up the middle. Oddly the late 70s Dodgers were sort of their negative image when it came to defense. It made for an interesting contrast.

The_jbh
11-19-2006, 02:35 PM
Gonzalez will help has a SS tremendously... I think phillips and gonzo will be the best double play combo in the league.

Hit bat is very mediocore but i think he'll hit 20+ HRs in our ball park. He's an 8 hitter which is fine as long as phillips hits.

If there is one position we can afford to sacrafice defense for offense its SS.

If Encarnacion continues to develop we will be fine. Move Deno/Freel to CF and I think our defense has improved tremendously...

i think votto will force his way into the lineup by june

Freel CF/ 2B Phillips
2B Phiillips / CF Deno
LF Dunn
3B Encarncion
RF Griffey
1B Votto
C Ross/Valentin
SS Gonzalez

I think thats a pretty good line up if griffey can hit

RedEye
11-19-2006, 06:18 PM
That is why I think the next signing should be Juan Pierre. The Reds would be as good defensively up the middle as any team in baseball. Extremely important IMO. A veteran presence in the Reds clubhouse is badly needed also.

Juan Pierre? That guy has like the worst OBP ever... and out of the leadoff spot! Don't get caught up in all his steals because he also got caught like 1 for every 3 times he ran. We can't afford to add another automatic out to the line-up after the Gonzalez signing. I like Gonzalez, but his strength is definitely not offense. He's like another Royce Clayton offensively but with gold glove caliber defense.

RedEye
11-19-2006, 06:20 PM
Juan Pierre? That guy has like the worst OBP ever... and out of the leadoff spot! Don't get caught up in all his steals because he also got caught like 1 for every 3 times he ran. We can't afford to add another automatic out to the line-up after the Gonzalez signing. I like Gonzalez, but his strength is definitely not offense. He's like another Royce Clayton offensively but with gold glove caliber defense.

He also has a very poor throwing arm in the outfield... so he's about as one-dimensional as they come. I would be VERY upset if we signed Pierre.

Slyder
11-19-2006, 06:31 PM
Not if his stats continue their freefall.

Dunn could swing with 1 hand and be more dangerous than Pierre's total ability. Ya he's got speed but he 2 hopes every throw from the outfield cause he's got a candy arm and asking 10 mil per year for Alex Sanchez type ability.

Highlifeman21
11-19-2006, 09:39 PM
He also has a very poor throwing arm in the outfield... so he's about as one-dimensional as they come. I would be VERY upset if we signed Pierre.

Who has the worst arm in CF between these two.... Johnny Damon or Juan Pierre?

At least Johnny Damon knows how to walk. Juan Pierre may not strike out that much, but his largely BA driven OBP just screams he can't take a walk if you spot him 3 balls.

If Krivsky had any stones, he'd go out and get a career .750+ OPS, CF glove man to send a message to Griffey.

George Foster
11-19-2006, 11:22 PM
I don't get this signing. Would we all agree that Castro is just as good defensively as Gonzalez? Is it worth 5 million a year for 15 extra batting average points and 10 extra homeruns? a .300 OBP is dreadful

Patrick Bateman
11-19-2006, 11:35 PM
I don't get this signing. Would we all agree that Castro is just as good defensively as Gonzalez?

No. It's not even remotely close.

Gonzo is one of the best defensive SS in the league. He's so good, he's close to an average shortstop, despite his pathetic hitting.

Castro on the otherhand has no range anymore. As he's getting older, his speed is deteriating (not that he ever had lots of it) and he simply can't get to enough balls to be called anywhere close to being an acceptable SS. He's a below average fielder.

Pair that with the fact that Castro is one of the worst hitters in modern day baseball, and you have a very poor player.

So yes, Gonzo is worth the extra 5M especially if Castro was going to get any kind of significant playing time.

IMO, Castro was a complete waste of a contract, especially considering we already had him on option for 1 year at 1M. There was no reason to throw another year at him. He's oly going to continue to decline. He offers basically nothing that you couldn't get from a guy like Rey Olmedo.

TeamSelig
11-19-2006, 11:49 PM
Castro is a below average fielder?

M2
11-20-2006, 01:16 AM
Castro is a below average fielder?

Only if he improves a lot.

This signing makes it pretty clear that the Reds don't buy into any of that hype about Castro's defense either. When push came to shove Wayne Krivsky plopped down $14 million to get himself some real defense as opposed to a guy with great hands and no range.

WVRedsFan
11-20-2006, 01:32 AM
Only if he improves a lot.

This signing makes it pretty clear that the Reds don't buy into any of that hype about Castro's defense either. When push came to shove Wayne Krivsky plopped down $14 million to get himself some real defense as opposed to a guy with great hands and no range.

Then why did he plop down the $1 MIL plus for Castro?

I tell you, the man cannot be figured out. He's in love with no hit infielders and relief pitching.

cincyinco
11-20-2006, 02:54 AM
This organization just continues to get dumber and dumber. Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it does. .299 OBP last year for Gonzalez. Awful. And you just know Narron will bat him second.

Wayne Krivsky has managed to turn this team from a offensive juggernaut to one of the worst hitting teams in baseball in less than a year. Impressive.

I know this is late, but I don't get it.

You complain about a guy that plays good D, yet advocate the Reds trading for a groundball pitcher in Jennings.

Don't you want someone to be able to scoop up those grounders?

I know I do.

EE and AG on the left side of the infield is pretty nice.

mth123
11-20-2006, 05:49 AM
Then why did he plop down the $1 MIL plus for Castro?

I tell you, the man cannot be figured out. He's in love with no hit infielders and relief pitching.

I think it was an insurance policy. I really believe that this team has a hard time getting players to take its money and acquiring a better guy was no sure thing. I'm not a Castro fan either and think the deal was a waste but if no one would play here the Phillips move may have been the only alternative with Castro as a fallback in case it failed.

I wasn't in favor of either signing but Gonzalez is a lot better than Castro.

Krusty
11-20-2006, 08:35 AM
I think it was an insurance policy. I really believe that this team has a hard time getting players to take its money and acquiring a better guy was no sure thing. I'm not a Castro fan either and think the deal was a waste but if no one would play here the Phillips move may have been the only alternative with Castro as a fallback in case it failed.

I wasn't in favor of either signing but Gonzalez is a lot better than Castro.

Castro will be Encarncion's caddy and see action in the late innings at third if Encarncion still has throwing problems.

Caveman Techie
11-20-2006, 08:59 AM
Wow, just Wow. It amazes me how negative some people on this board can be. Defense has obviously been a problem with this team, and WK goes out and gets a good defensive SS and people here act like he just set fire to their puppy.

Any team that has EE, Adam Dunn, and KGJ (if healthy) on it is not hurting for offense. Plus don't forget the magical offensive powers of GAB, I wouldn't put it past Gonzo to hit a few more HR's this year.

SeeinRed
11-20-2006, 09:16 AM
Then why did he plop down the $1 MIL plus for Castro?

I tell you, the man cannot be figured out. He's in love with no hit infielders and relief pitching.

He likes defense and pitching plain and simple. I don't know why it is so hard to understand that this team right now is not what it is going to look like come spring training. To say that two signings at the beginning of the offseason make no sense for the team when you have no idea what the team is going to be like come spring training doesn't make any sense to me.

You have to give up some offense at some positions like SS for defense. Especially when you are a small market team. I'm sure Krivsky is more than aware that he needs a bat at some other position, but you have to understand that he is still building this team the way he wants it. To look at this team now and believe that it is anywhere near what Krivsky wants it to be is crazy. Granted, you aren't going to see the explosive offense of the previous few years, but you are going to see a more rounded team. That IMO is far more likely to be successful than a team like we have become familiar with here in Cincy.

asboog
11-20-2006, 04:57 PM
Hi all i browse this bored every once in a while because I respect the Reds and their fans. I am a White Sox fan but I will root for anyone plays against the team on the northside. I think your pick up of Gonzalez was a great move for you guys. I know there were rumors of him coming to the Sox but i think those were completely unfounded. He is a nice upgrade over Clayton. I remember when Clayton was with us. He was decent with the glove and horrible at the plate. It was a nice surprise to see you guys pick up Gonzalez.

Falls City Beer
11-20-2006, 05:40 PM
Any team that has EE, Adam Dunn, and KGJ (if healthy) on it is not hurting for offense. .

This team is hurting terribly for offense at the present moment.

I'd sooner have a nuclear warhead babysit my kids than expect anything from Griffey next season, and two offensive players isn't enough to offset the putrescence of the rest of the squad and the bench. And the pitching is nowhere NEAR enough to offset the offense.

Shaknb8k
11-20-2006, 07:19 PM
Great offense + awful defense + awful pitching = 6 losing seasons. Its time to try something else. The only reason im glad Krivsky made "the trade" last year was to show that the old way didnt work and wasnt going to work any time soon. Why not change it up. Can below avg. offense + good defense + decent pitching = anything worse than the past 6 seasons?

So i say to Krivsky change anything and everything you want cause the old way of doing things around here didnt work.

EKURed
11-20-2006, 07:51 PM
I think the "naysayers" will be pleasantly surprised next year with Gonzalez's defense. I think Gonzalzez and Phillips can be SPECIAL up the middle next year. Castro is not in Gonzalez's league....and it would have been proven if he would have had to have played a full season at short.

Falls City Beer
11-20-2006, 08:38 PM
Great offense + awful defense + awful pitching = 6 losing seasons.

As it stands right now with Griffey in center and no Larue, this team is still: below average defense + awful pitching + awful offense. Not lookin' good.

flyer85
11-20-2006, 08:43 PM
As it stands right now with Griffey in center and no Larue, this team is still: below average defense + awful pitching + awful offense. Not lookin' good.... sometimes the truth hurts. :help:

Gizmo
11-20-2006, 09:06 PM
Of every non-pitcher free agent (aside from an obvious CFer we probably aren't even going to look into) on the market, this is the guy I wanted us to pursue. Not only did we pursue, we got him. I'm excited.


NOW GET SOME PITCHING!!!

fadetoblack2880
11-20-2006, 09:29 PM
Of every non-pitcher free agent (aside from an obvious CFer we probably aren't even going to look into) on the market, this is the guy I wanted us to pursue. Not only did we pursue, we got him. I'm excited.


NOW GET SOME PITCHING!!!

i'm glad we got him too.

fadetoblack2880
11-20-2006, 09:32 PM
He also has a very poor throwing arm in the outfield... so he's about as one-dimensional as they come. I would be VERY upset if we signed Pierre.

Pierre is a Dodger.

VR
11-20-2006, 10:25 PM
Pierre is a Dodger.

Wow. That's all I have to say about that contract.

tomred
11-21-2006, 02:08 AM
I have to say the negative thoughts on this site is a downer the Reds were in contention until the last week oof the season thanks to Wayne yet it seems he does nothing postive just remember one year ago does anybody here really think we would be better of with Dan Obiren give the guy 2 years then complain just my thoughts

Topcat
11-21-2006, 03:29 AM
I have to say the negative thoughts on this site is a downer the Reds were in contention until the last week oof the season thanks to Wayne yet it seems he does nothing postive just remember one year ago does anybody here really think we would be better of with Dan Obiren give the guy 2 years then complain just my thoughts


Tomred take it all with a grain of salt. It is easy to criticize and for 6 division winners it provokes ways to get better and win the World Series. 2 wild card team sneak in and beyond that the "know" it all's can be proven right far more often than proven wrong. Yeah there baseball fans "so to speak" but they seldom offer solutions with any actual hard facts to back there argument I must add as a disclaimer the following. If I viewed baseball as they do, I can truly say I would quit the game altogether. If you do not have hope, or a passion for the great catches and walk off homers or clutch hits of the game.

Then why care? Why waste god's precious time in life that you breathe on something that you consider a doomed franchise a team that has no hope?
If you can not offer realistic solutions, then all you truly are is a weak person choosing the easy side of criticism. Barry Zito to the Red's pardon my chat comment lmfao mister west coast is going to stay there or be money whipped by the Yankee's or Met's. Thats a realistic fact if you are objective.

Falls City Beer
11-21-2006, 04:58 PM
Tomred take it all with a grain of salt. It is easy to criticize and for 6 division winners it provokes ways to get better and win the World Series. 2 wild card team sneak in and beyond that the "know" it all's can be proven right far more often than proven wrong. Yeah there baseball fans "so to speak" but they seldom offer solutions with any actual hard facts to back there argument I must add as a disclaimer the following. If I viewed baseball as they do, I can truly say I would quit the game altogether. If you do not have hope, or a passion for the great catches and walk off homers or clutch hits of the game.

Then why care? Why waste god's precious time in life that you breathe on something that you consider a doomed franchise a team that has no hope?
If you can not offer realistic solutions, then all you truly are is a weak person choosing the easy side of criticism. Barry Zito to the Red's pardon my chat comment lmfao mister west coast is going to stay there or be money whipped by the Yankee's or Met's. Thats a realistic fact if you are objective.


What a terrible mischaracterization of many posters on this site. I don't know a single poster on this board who doesn't believe there's hope for this team. I consider someone a pessimist who says "So and so will never come here! He's too west coast." What the hell does that mean? Zito can't surf during the baseball season anyway--too damn busy (even in Oakland).

If the Reds want to win they'll win. If they want to turn a profit on the club, they'll do that. If they want to think small, then that's their prerogative. But there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of this team being great except small minds and miserliness.

Cedric
11-21-2006, 05:07 PM
... sometimes the truth hurts. :help:

That is the truth. But it's a changin.

Don't forget how miserable things were this time last year. They aren't peachy now, but they are changing.

Johnny Footstool
11-21-2006, 05:17 PM
I have to say the negative thoughts on this site is a downer the Reds were in contention until the last week oof the season thanks to Wayne yet it seems he does nothing postive just remember one year ago does anybody here really think we would be better of with Dan Obiren give the guy 2 years then complain just my thoughts

They were in contention thanks to weak competition from pretty much every other NL team.

Wayne deserves some credit for acquiring Arroyo, Phillips, and Ross, but he deserves blame for the Kearns/Lopez deal.

Patpacillosjock
11-21-2006, 05:44 PM
They were in contention thanks to weak competition from pretty much every other NL team.

Wayne deserves some credit for acquiring Arroyo, Phillips, and Ross, but he deserves blame for the Kearns/Lopez deal.

Please add the following:

Cormier
Stanton
Ryan Franklin
Lohse
Guardado

And for not only trading away Kearns/Lopez like you stated but getting these players in return:

Majewski
Clayon

I like Bray and will be patient for him.

reds44
11-21-2006, 05:44 PM
They were in contention thanks to weak competition from pretty much every other NL team.

Wayne deserves some credit for acquiring Arroyo, Phillips, and Ross, but he deserves blame for the Kearns/Lopez deal.
The club also won 7 more games then it did the year before. It was an improvement.