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View Full Version : We could pick up four draft picks!



dunner13
11-22-2006, 11:11 AM
From what I understand about the way losing free agents works now is that if they are a Type A free agent then you get two draft picks for them. Both picks coming within the first two rounds. Rich Aurilla and David Weathers are both Type A Free agents ( yeh it surprised me to) which means in next years draft we would have our normal picks then 4 more in the first two rounds, assuming that we dont resign either one. Looks like aurilla is gone for sure, and I think Weathers will be to. This will be a really good chance for wayne to start rebuilding our minor leagues and adding some studs to go with bailey, bruce, stubbs and wood.

joshnky
11-22-2006, 11:14 AM
From what I understand about the way losing free agents works now is that if they are a Type A free agent then you get two draft picks for them. Both picks coming within the first two rounds. Rich Aurilla and David Weathers are both Type A Free agents ( yeh it surprised me to) which means in next years draft we would have our normal picks then 4 more in the first two rounds, assuming that we dont resign either one. Looks like aurilla is gone for sure, and I think Weathers will be to. This will be a really good chance for wayne to start rebuilding our minor leagues and adding some studs to go with bailey, bruce, stubbs and wood.

I believe we have to offer them arbitration in order to receive draft pick compensation.

George Anderson
11-22-2006, 11:17 AM
I believe we have to offer them arbitration in order to receive draft pick compensation.

If thats the case I would say its a no brainer not to offer arbitration. Is there any reason you wouldnt?? Worse case scenario is they end up back on the team which isnt all bad.

joshnky
11-22-2006, 11:19 AM
If thats the case I would say its a no brainer not to offer arbitration. Is there any reason you wouldnt?? Worse case scenario is they end up back on the team which isnt all bad.

Worse case scenario is the player wins in arbitration and then you're forced to overpay for an aging player coming off a good year. As a small market team, thats not smart business.

M2
11-22-2006, 11:19 AM
They may be signed before the team even has to make the arbitration offer. I want to say the team has until Dec. 19 to do that.

Though since both should get multi-year deals, I see no danger in offering them arbitration. There's something like zero chance that they'll accept it. Add Scott Schoeneweis to that list too. He's supposedly talking multi-year deals. He's a Type B, so the signing team wouldn't lose a draft pick on him, though the Reds would gain a supplementals pick. So the club should have seven picks in Rounds 1 and 2 next year.

Red Leader
11-22-2006, 11:20 AM
I actually think in both of these cases, the Reds have nothing to lose by offering arbitration to both of them. Sure, you may have to settle for Weathers at a slightly inflated rate.

I think both would end up declining arbitration and electing to remain free agents.

joshnky
11-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Will the new system discourage other teams from signing free agents. It seems to me that a team might be hesitant to sign David Weathers for a premium and then have to give up a first round pick as well. I'm sure somone will do it but I wonder if a few bidders might be scared off.

redsmetz
11-22-2006, 11:23 AM
We had this discussion a few days ago and I figured if one or the other signs elsewhere, it's just procedural, but someone suggested that if they sign before the arbitration deadline, the draft picks are automatically ours. That would make sense.

I agree this can be a way for the Reds to restock their minor league system. It's the philosophy of Billy Beane, isn't it? If you don't trade them, get the draft picks. Doesn't he occasionally take flyers on possible free agents that way? Am I understanding that correctly?

M2
11-22-2006, 11:26 AM
Will the new system discourage other teams from signing free agents. It seems to me that a team might be hesitant to sign David Weathers for a premium and then have to give up a first round pick as well. I'm sure somone will do it but I wonder if a few bidders might be scared off.

Looks to me like teams are spending like drunken sailors and consequences be damned. Weathers should easily be able to pick up two years for at least $3.5M a season.

dunner13
11-22-2006, 11:35 AM
Even if weathers did accept arbitration we could easily trade him, probably get a good prospect out of it to.

Highlifeman21
11-22-2006, 11:37 AM
Even if weathers did accept arbitration we could easily trade him, probably get a good prospect out of it to.

Absolute myth.

RedsManRick
11-22-2006, 11:56 AM
FWIW, both Gonzalez and Stanton are type B guys, so we stand to lose a few as well.

M2
11-22-2006, 11:57 AM
FWIW, both Gonzalez and Stanton are type B guys, so we stand to lose a few as well.

Type B doesn't cost the signing team any picks. It just awards a sandwich pick to the player's former club.

Red Leader
11-22-2006, 12:02 PM
Type B doesn't cost the signing team any picks. It just awards a sandwich pick to the player's former club.

Correct. As of now, we haven't lost any draft picks.

I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

paulrichjr
11-22-2006, 12:06 PM
I believe we have to offer them arbitration in order to receive draft pick compensation.


This has been discussed on other threads but the Giants in years past have been known to purposely sign free agents before the arbitration deadline so that they would automatically LOSE their first round choice. The Giants in years past felt that paying $3 million for a guy unproven was foolish. Omar Vizquel is an example of this very thing. They signed him before the deadline even though everyone knew that Cleveland was not going to resign him and not offer arbitration. Cleveland lucked out and got the pick.

In this market Aurilla and Weathers will get a job and we will offer arbitration. The only concern that I have is that we will not get a pick if the Giants sign Aurilla because their record was in the bottom half of the league and those teams don't lose their choice.

Type B free agents means that we will not lose a choice by signing those but the team that lost them will get an extra pick.

RedsManRick
11-22-2006, 12:10 PM
Type B doesn't cost the signing team any picks. It just awards a sandwich pick to the player's former club.

But I thought that you only got sandwhich picks for your net of B signees/losses. That is, if we have two of our B's signed and we sign two, we don't get any. I very well could be wrong, but otherwise it seems that there are going going to be something like 30 supplemental picks.

JaxRed
11-22-2006, 01:07 PM
From what I understand about the way losing free agents works now is that if they are a Type A free agent then you get two draft picks for them. Both picks coming within the first two rounds. Rich Aurilla and David Weathers are both Type A Free agents ( yeh it surprised me to) which means in next years draft we would have our normal picks then 4 more in the first two rounds, assuming that we dont resign either one. Looks like aurilla is gone for sure, and I think Weathers will be to. This will be a really good chance for wayne to start rebuilding our minor leagues and adding some studs to go with bailey, bruce, stubbs and wood.


edit..... post was right.... Let them go.... get those picks

paulrichjr
11-22-2006, 01:50 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster&univLogin02=stateChanged

Type A behaviorposted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 | Feedback | Print Entry

Justin Speier has 17 career saves in 459 outings in a career mostly spent in middle relief, and for that, he got a four-year, $18 million deal from the Angels. Ted Lilly, on the other hand, is 37-34 as a starting pitcher in the American League East the last three seasons, averaging about 170 innings, and he'll probably get a contract for twice the money that Speier got.
But within the Major League Baseball rankings, Speier is a Type A free agent, while Lilly is only a Type B. If Speier turns out to be the only free agent signed by the Angels this offseason, they will surrender their No. 1 draft pick to the Toronto Blue Jays. In addition, the Blue Jays will get a supplemental first-round pick for losing Speier, because of his ranking. And because Frank Catalanotto is also a Type A free agent (he signed with Texas), the Blue Jays will get two draft picks for the outfielder, as well.

Next year's draft is expected to yield a good crop of players, several executives said Monday, and now Toronto will have a lot of extra picks to restock their farm system. "Our guys think it's going to be a very, very good high school draft," Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi said. "What this will allow us to do is to maybe draft some high school kids, and then give them some time to develop. When we first came in here, we really were in a position where we had to draft college kids. Not next year."

We saw at the trade deadline last summer that the market value of young players is climbing. The Tigers, for instance, would not trade outfielder Cameron Maybin to the Nationals for Alfonso Soriano, who, months later, has signed the fifth-largest contract in baseball history. That trend will become more ingrained in baseball, in the aftermath of the 10-day spending spree we have seen since the free-agent market opened.

But it does not seem that teams are placing the same kind of premium on draft picks; instead they're showing a willingness to do what the Angels and Rangers have done: sacrifice draft picks for major leaguers who are not stars.

"Maybe because the players are farther away from the big leagues -- they're not as far along in their development," said a high-ranking AL executive.

Some teams have done studies to quantify the value of draft choices: In other words, how much money can a team save if it drafts and develops its own No. 1 pick, No. 2 pick, etc. rather than use a veteran major league player (read: expensive) in that roster spot. "You look at it like a sliding scale," said one executive, "depending on where you pick in the round and what round you are talking about."

In past years, teams might have waited to see if players like Speier and Catalanotto -- Type A free agents who are not stars -- were offered arbitration by their teams before extending contract offers. If the Blue Jays hadn't offered Speier arbitration by the Dec. 7 deadline, the Angels would not have had to sacrifice their draft pick.

But with so many teams flush with dollars, the offers are being made rapid-fire, and the draft ramifications are mostly being ignored.

There are about two dozen Type A free agents remaining on the market, and many will probably get contract offers before Dec. 7, meaning that their old teams will get draft compensation. Among the group: Jason Schmidt, Jeff Suppan, Danys Baez, Joe Borowski, Chad Bradford, Carlos Lee, Julio Lugo, Gary Matthews, Dave Roberts, Barry Zito.

Those players whose Type A status could affect the offers they get: Ronnie Belliard, Ray Durham, Eric Gagne, Aubrey Huff, Mark Loretta.

Those who may have to wait until after Dec. 7, when teams will know whether they have to surrender a draft pick if they sign the player: Cliff Floyd, Aaron Fultz, Tony Graffanino, Eddie Guardado, Roberto Hernandez, Mike Lieberthal, Greg Maddux, Bengie Molina, David Riske, Russ Springer, Todd Walker, Woody Williams.

Soriano's contract was Sunday's shocker, but today, it is apparently the Juan Pierre deal: five years, $44 million. The Dodgers are talking about hitting Pierre behind Rafael Furcal. The middle of their order is, as of today, very thin, lacking power, but Steve Henson writes that the Dodgers continue to say they have no interest in Barry Bonds. A slugger will be hard to come by for the Dodgers, writes Rich Hammond. The Dodgers better pitch and catch like crazy if they're going to win next year.

Mario-Rijo
11-22-2006, 06:20 PM
Yeah that was a good point I was about to make until the article covered it, it's now Dec. 7th that you must offer arbitration bye.


Also:

The only concern that I have is that we will not get a pick if the Giants sign Aurilla because their record was in the bottom half of the league and those teams don't lose their choice.


I believe that this was covered by someone the other day in an article about the Soriano deal. Since the Cubbies were in that lower half of the teams, the Nats get the Cubs 2nd round pick instead I do believe. Actually my concern is that S.F. signs both Aurilia and Weathers and we lose out on a 1st rounder that way, we may get both their 1st and 2nd I don't know for sure.

Redmachine2003
11-22-2006, 06:30 PM
Offer both arb. and if the Reds get stuck with them and lose. Try to trade them before the season starts. I mean if you can trade Larue you can trade these guys, it is a low risk, high reward move.

Redsland
11-22-2006, 08:38 PM
Offer both arb. and if the Reds get stuck with them and lose. Try to trade them before the season starts. I mean if you can trade Larue you can trade these guys, it is a low risk, high reward move.
Also, arb contracts aren't guaranteed. If you offer and they accept, you can always cut them in the spring for 20% of the eventual contract amount.

Topcat
11-22-2006, 11:56 PM
They may be signed before the team even has to make the arbitration offer. I want to say the team has until Dec. 19 to do that.

Though since both should get multi-year deals, I see no danger in offering them arbitration. There's something like zero chance that they'll accept it. Add Scott Schoeneweis to that list too. He's supposedly talking multi-year deals. He's a Type B, so the signing team wouldn't lose a draft pick on him, though the Reds would gain a supplementals pick. So the club should have seven picks in Rounds 1 and 2 next year.


Exactly and building thru the draft has always been my solution for improvement with this team m2. It is why I suggested the adopt a prospect draft in the beginning.