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View Full Version : Blockbuster deal on the horizon?



RedEye
11-24-2006, 01:15 PM
Like most of you, the flurry of smaller WK moves on Monday whetted my appetite for the 'centerpiece deal' of this offseason. It's pretty clear that Wayne is not finished dealing. Unlike DanO, he seems to like teasing the fan base with statements like "Stay tuned" or "We're not done dealing" on a regular basis. So far, he's been true to his word.

My question for you all is this: Assuming the Gonzalez and Stanton are not all of it yet, what kind of MAJOR deal do you think Wayne will make this offseason?

Does he make a big free agent signing? A pitcher? A closer? An outfielder?

Does he make a big trade for one of the above?

Does he continue to make a cluster of smaller moves and ignore the big fish?

For my part, I think his acquisition of Gonzalez points to an impeding trade or free agent signing of a pitcher. Having a good defense up the middle is like buying an insurance policy for a top notch SP who gets ground balls. Frankly, I won't be surprised if we land a Lilly or a Meche, or a Padilla but I also won't be shocked if we are in the running for Zito or Schmidt. Really... I think we are going to be pleasantly surprised (at least until we realize we've overpaid)!

What say you?

Gallen5862
11-24-2006, 01:24 PM
I would not be surprized if we don't get a relief Pitcher like Baez and maybe Trot Nixon for the outfield. I then think he will try to trade for starting Pitching.

mth123
11-24-2006, 01:38 PM
Baez is the only name I've seen the Reds actually linked to in print or on the web, so I'll go with him. I'll tell you if I like it when I see the $ if it happens.

edabbs44
11-24-2006, 01:49 PM
I would not be surprized if we don't get a relief Pitcher like Baez and maybe Trot Nixon for the outfield. I then think he will try to trade for starting Pitching.

Baez

http://www.webdesign.org/img_articles/2493/MoneyBurn.jpg


Spending $7-8 mil per on a closer is such a waste if you don't have the horses to get you to the 9th.

Tigs
11-24-2006, 01:58 PM
With the Cubs getting Soriano and the Astros about to land Carlos Lee, I think the Reds really need to land a big bat.

mth123
11-24-2006, 02:01 PM
With the Cubs getting Soriano and the Astros about to land Carlos Lee, I think the Reds really need to land a big bat.

Me too. I thought the question was what we think they will do, not what we think they should do.

Falls City Beer
11-24-2006, 02:04 PM
If you're deciding what bat Krivsky will go after, take all the available hitters and rank them according to fewest strikeouts; I think you'll find Wayne's hunting for #1 on that list. Regardless of his other numbers (particularly after capitulating in picking up defense with Gonzalez--who is a notorious K machine).

guttle11
11-24-2006, 02:08 PM
With the Cubs getting Soriano and the Astros about to land Carlos Lee, I think the Reds really need to land a big bat.

There's really no reason to. With the bullpen and 3/5th of the rotation the way they are, Babe Ruth himself would not make this team a title contender.

Why waste the money?

If there's any big moves on the horizon, it better be for pitching. If winning this year is most important to them, make a splash on the free agent market. If they're looking to 08 and 09 (which is best IMO) trade Dunn for a kings ransom of young pitching and OF prospects if it's available and build for when Bailey, Bruce and Co are fully ready.

edabbs44
11-24-2006, 02:12 PM
There's really no reason to. With the bullpen and 3/5th of the rotation the way they are, Babe Ruth himself would not make this team a title contender.

Why waste the money?

Exactly. I think WK needed, at the beginning of the offseason, to assess this team and make a determination of whether they can make them into a contender within 1-2 years or to take a step back and build from the ground up. The moves so far signal to me that they think that contention is within reach, but I think there needs to be A LOT more done. And my feeling is that he is not even close.

corkedbat
11-24-2006, 02:16 PM
I expect them to TRY to get two starters (one each by FA and trade) a free agent closer candidate and the best bat they can land by FA or trade.

I don't hold out any hope for Schmidt, Zito or Meche and not that much for Lilly or Padillo, but there may be just a sliver of a glimmer. I'm thinking probably along the lines of Armas or Okha. I'd love a deal we can live with for a # three starter along the lines of Westbrook, but don't know what we have (and could spare) that would get it done. I think we land may well land either Baez or Borowski for the pen, but at a very high price.

If we don't and we can't trade for a closer, it wouldn't surprise me to see Lohse join Coffey, Bray and Belisle in a competition for the spot - not very appealing.

I think Nixon or Wilson are candidates if they go for a FA bat, but something tells me WK fashions a trade of some kind to fill this need.

I think the very poor FA crop, the surging market prices and the needs of the larger teams makes this a very dangerous off-season for a team like the Reds who have such glaring needs and so few decent comodities to spare in trade. The temptation to take an uniwise risk is probably pretty high.

Handofdeath
11-24-2006, 02:21 PM
There's really no reason to. With the bullpen and 3/5th of the rotation the way they are, Babe Ruth himself would not make this team a title contender.

Why waste the money?

If there's any big moves on the horizon, it better be for pitching. If winning this year is most important to them, make a splash on the free agent market. If they're looking to 08 and 09 (which is best IMO) trade Dunn for a kings ransom of young pitching and OF prospects if it's available and build for when Bailey, Bruce and Co are fully ready.

Maybe I missed something this past season. Didn't the Reds finish 3 and 1/2 games behind the N.L. Central winner the St. Louis Cardinals? Didn't the Cards wind up winning the World Series? How long were the Reds in the playoff race? It was until mid to late September wasn't it? Sounds like a contender to me.

guttle11
11-24-2006, 02:23 PM
Maybe I missed something this past season. Didn't the Reds finish 3 and 1/2 games behind the N.L. Central winner the St. Louis Cardinals? Didn't the Cards wind up winning the World Series? How long were the Reds in the playoff race? It was until mid to late September wasn't it? Sounds like a contender to me.


Correct.

However, the Cubs and Astros appear to be better, and you know the Cards will be there. The Reds were contenders mostly because the Astros (until Sept.) and Cubs stunk.

Joseph
11-24-2006, 02:33 PM
Correct.

However, the Cubs and Astros appear to be better, and you know the Cards will be there. The Reds were contenders mostly because the Astros (until Sept.) and Cubs stunk.

The Astros still need someone to throw the ball. Oswalt and who?

As it stands at 1:30 CST on November 24th 2006, I'd rather have the Reds rotation than the Astros, Cubs, or Cards. That'll change for all teams before Opening Day, but right now anything is possible.

Highlifeman21
11-24-2006, 02:41 PM
I feel there's a disappointing blockbuster deal on the horizon that will leave most of us scratching our heads.

Since Krivsky's gone out and cornered the market on relievers no one wants, I have this sick to my stomach feeling that he'll try to reverse the Washington deal by sending a package of our reliever castoffs to some team lacking bullpen help in return for some bat. Mind you, this bat probably won't be a big stick, but will be one of Narron's mold of "knows how to play the game the right way (fill in grotesque Narron-ism here), etc" and like has been said in this thread already, most likely will be low in the strikeout department. If I had to make a guess, it would be some sort of low strikeout punch and judy OF.

The blockbuster I'd love to see would be something involving Griffey for either a better starter, or a different OF bat. It's a shame that dream will never come to pass.

thatcoolguy_22
11-24-2006, 02:45 PM
If they're looking to 08 and 09 (which is best IMO) trade Dunn for a kings ransom of young pitching and OF prospects if it's available and build for when Bailey, Bruce and Co are fully ready.

My point exactly. The key being to trade Dunn for a king's ransom. I think this might be a little harder to accomplish than it was to type...

Also it is not always a good idea to solely depend on prospects that are still years away. There are too many variables that could alter their personal development as well as alter the make-up of our team.

For example lets say that we completely disregard our current team and place any and all emphasis onto the 2009 season. In the next 2 years Harang develops shoulder troubles and all of our 35+ aged bullpen arms show their age. However Bailey bruce and votto arrive according to plan. We will have a very similar end result as we did the last few years. The whole dynamic of the team changed with no better result.

At the very most you consider any and all prospects on the back burner. There have been too many can't miss prospects that went astray. My point is that we should still build for this year's title run while not selling our soul for next. It is a tricky an complex balance that we must achieve.

VI_RedsFan
11-24-2006, 02:46 PM
The Astros still need someone to throw the ball. Oswalt and who?

As it stands at 1:30 CST on November 24th 2006, I'd rather have the Reds rotation than the Astros, Cubs, or Cards. That'll change for all teams before Opening Day, but right now anything is possible.


Agreed.

Sure, 3/5 of our rotation are either undecided or below-average, but at least we have more than one dependable starter. I bet the Stros and Cubbies both wish they had more than one Zambrano or Oswalt, not to mention even the Cards as well with Carpenter. IMO, overpaying for Soriano and Lee does not make those two teams better than us.

Shaknb8k
11-24-2006, 03:21 PM
I wouldnt consider this a blockbuster deal/signing by any means but ive seen the reds linked to Craig Wilson on ESPN. With the prices these top hitters are going for its making Dunn look a lot more valuable. If a few more players sign big contracts then dare i say Griffey might even be considered valuable?

Will M
11-24-2006, 03:31 PM
Blockbuster deal on the horizon? IMO no.

I think the Reds will do small stuff:
1. Craig Wilson
2. Randy Wolf
3. perhaps another vet for the bench

I don't see a big blockbuster on the horizon.

roby
11-24-2006, 03:56 PM
Somebody please teach me something here...I have heard more than one person remark that it wouldn't "take that much to get" Jennings from the Rockies. What is the reasoning behind that thinking? If it is true, why aren't the Reds jumping at the opportunity? thanks for your help.

cinredsfan2000
11-24-2006, 04:22 PM
Really... I think we are going to be pleasantly surprised (at least until we realize we've overpaid)!What say you?

Hopefully not suprised in a bad way like we were with milton ! Just saying.:D :evil:

Falls City Beer
11-24-2006, 04:31 PM
The Astros still need someone to throw the ball. Oswalt and who?

As it stands at 1:30 CST on November 24th 2006, I'd rather have the Reds rotation than the Astros, Cubs, or Cards. That'll change for all teams before Opening Day, but right now anything is possible.

I'll take the Cards'. Wainwright possibly will join Reyes and Carpenter. That kills whatever permutation the Reds can concoct from their current 40 man. As has been mentioned before, the dropoff after Arroyo and Harang is astonishingly precipitous. Perhaps as bad as any dropoff in baseball.

LoganBuck
11-24-2006, 04:35 PM
Blockbuster deal on the horizon? IMO no.

I think the Reds will do small stuff:
1. Craig Wilson
2. Randy Wolf
3. perhaps another vet for the bench

I don't see a big blockbuster on the horizon.

Add Baez to that list and I would be happy.

mole44
11-24-2006, 04:52 PM
Blockbuster deal on the horizon? IMO no.

I think the Reds will do small stuff:
1. Craig Wilson
2. Randy Wolf
3. perhaps another vet for the bench

I don't see a big blockbuster on the horizon.

That would actually make me happy as a clam. Make that vet Armas Jr and I would dance in the streets

OnBaseMachine
11-24-2006, 05:09 PM
I'll take the Cards'. Wainwright possibly will join Reyes and Carpenter. That kills whatever permutation the Reds can concoct from their current 40 man. As has been mentioned before, the dropoff after Arroyo and Harang is astonishingly precipitous. Perhaps as bad as any dropoff in baseball.

Reyes stinks and Wainwright's minor league stats as a starter are nothing to get too excited about. He's a great reliever but nothing special as a starter.

Krusty
11-24-2006, 05:20 PM
It is not the magnitude of the slobber-knocker deal but the series of transactions that a team makes that improves the overall roster.

With that said, if the Reds could swing a deal with the Orioles for OF Nick Markakis and RHP Daniel Cabrera, I could see it happening especially after the Orioles lost out on the Carlos Lee sweepstakes.

Falls City Beer
11-24-2006, 05:21 PM
Reyes stinks and Wainwright's minor league stats as a starter are nothing to get too excited about. He's a great reliever but nothing special as a starter.

I have similar reservations about Wainwright as a starter. But I'll take my chances with Wainwright versus Milton (the Reds' current #3). And Reyes may not make the leap forward next year, but he couldn't be working with a better pitching coach to make it happen.

Caveat Emperor
11-24-2006, 05:28 PM
I'll take the Cards'. Wainwright possibly will join Reyes and Carpenter. That kills whatever permutation the Reds can concoct from their current 40 man. As has been mentioned before, the dropoff after Arroyo and Harang is astonishingly precipitous. Perhaps as bad as any dropoff in baseball.

Wainwright and Reyes are good -- but they're not great. I'd be happier about having Reyes given his track record as a starting pitcher in the bigs as opposed to Wainwright. Wainwright posted good numbers as a reliever, but fell slightly on the hit-lucky side of things. His minor league numbers are good, but they're certainly not "blow you out of the water" good. Reyes was even more hit-lucky last year, and he still couldn't crack the 5.00 barrier on his ERA.

Regardless of how you split it, I put the Cardinals rotation next year (as it stands right now) as Carpenter and a big "?" behind him. Certainly it wouldn't surprise me if Reyes and Wainwright both became very good major league pitchers (given the Cards track record of always seeming to make the right personnel moves), but it also wouldn't surprise me to see both of them post moderate to mediocre numbers next season.

However, having said that, I still like it better than what the Reds have coming back. While Harang is a great pitcher (probably top 10 in the NL), he's still not as good as Carpenter is. Arroyo had a great season last year, but I question whether or not he'll be able to replicate his numbers. Beyond those two, it drops off into varying degrees of awful. Milton on his best day is a below-average 5th starter, Elizardo Ramirez has no business being in any competing rotation, and the rest of the arms are outright garbage.

There's work to be done here -- but don't hold your breath for a blockbuster deal. Teams hang onto good pitching until they get young pitching in return. The Reds aren't in a position to make a deal like that.

There might be a trade on the horizon, but I very much doubt anyone around here is going to like what comes back in return.

Krusty
11-24-2006, 05:31 PM
Wainwright and Reyes are good -- but they're not great. I'd be happier about having Reyes given his track record as a starting pitcher in the bigs as opposed to Wainwright. Wainwright posted good numbers as a reliever, but fell slightly on the hit-lucky side of things. His minor league numbers are good, but they're certainly not "blow you out of the water" good. Reyes was even more hit-lucky last year, and he still couldn't crack the 5.00 barrier on his ERA.

Regardless of how you split it, I put the Cardinals rotation next year (as it stands right now) as Carpenter and a big "?" behind him. Certainly it wouldn't surprise me if Reyes and Wainwright both became very good major league pitchers (given the Cards track record of always seeming to make the right personnel moves), but it also wouldn't surprise me to see both of them post moderate to mediocre numbers next season.

However, having said that, I still like it better than what the Reds have coming back. While Harang is a great pitcher (probably top 10 in the NL), he's still not as good as Carpenter is. Arroyo had a great season last year, but I question whether or not he'll be able to replicate his numbers. Beyond those two, it drops off into varying degrees of awful. Milton on his best day is a below-average 5th starter, Elizardo Ramirez has no business being in any competing rotation, and the rest of the arms are outright garbage.

There's work to be done here -- but don't hold your breath for a blockbuster deal. Teams hang onto good pitching until they get young pitching in return. The Reds aren't in a position to make a deal like that.

There might be a trade on the horizon, but I very much doubt anyone around here is going to like what comes back in return.


Weren't Wainwright and Reyes rookies last year for the Cards? Anyways I like their high ceilings.

George Foster
11-25-2006, 02:02 AM
The free agents on the market now are like scalped tickets. A week before the game, they go for a premium. The closer to game time, the price goes down. The same with the remainder of the free agents. I think the closer we get to the winter meetings and spring training the price will come down some. K is just waiting.
I think he does not want to give up Dunn's production unless he has to. I feel his first choice is to sign a free agent starter. A "closer" is way down on his priority list. A closer by "commitee" is a better option than to waste money on a real closer, if he never gets a chance to close a game because of our poor starting pitching or lack of offense.

fearofpopvol1
11-25-2006, 02:43 AM
The free agents on the market now are like scalped tickets. A week before the game, they go for a premium. The closer to game time, the price goes down. The same with the remainder of the free agents. I think the closer we get to the winter meetings and spring training the price will come down some. K is just waiting.
I think he does not want to give up Dunn's production unless he has to. I feel his first choice is to sign a free agent starter. A "closer" is way down on his priority list. A closer by "commitee" is a better option than to waste money on a real closer, if he never gets a chance to close a game because of our poor starting pitching or lack of offense.

Good post, I agree. This is assuming Baez can't be obtained of course.

Natty Redlocks
11-25-2006, 06:01 AM
It is not the magnitude of the slobber-knocker deal but the series of transactions that a team makes that improves the overall roster.

With that said, if the Reds could swing a deal with the Orioles for OF Nick Markakis and RHP Daniel Cabrera, I could see it happening especially after the Orioles lost out on the Carlos Lee sweepstakes.

Is there something I'm missing? Aren't they already an OF short? Why would they trade Markakis, who is good and cheap, just to land the booby prize of the big bat trade market? I heard they had Rodrigo Lopez for Pat Burrell worked out but Burrell wouldn't go. I can't see them offering that much more for Dunn.

Jpup
11-25-2006, 09:42 AM
Is there something I'm missing? Aren't they already an OF short? Why would they trade Markakis, who is good and cheap, just to land the booby prize of the big bat trade market? I heard they had Rodrigo Lopez for Pat Burrell worked out but Burrell wouldn't go. I can't see them offering that much more for Dunn.

Well, you are sadly mistaken then. If the Reds trade Adam Dunn for Rodrigo Lopez, I'll drive to Cincinnati and slap Mr. Krivsky myself.

VI_RedsFan
11-25-2006, 10:44 AM
I could see us targeting Miguel Tejada eventhough we just signed Gonzalez to be our shortstop. I'm guessing the deal would look like this:

Encarnacion, Wood, Olmedo, and Pelland to Baltimore for Tejada

Miguel would then take over at 3B for us and we would have an excellent infield defense, as well as a great offense.

I'm not sure if I would pull the trigger on that deal though; I really want to hold onto EE.

Degenerate39
11-25-2006, 11:34 AM
I could see us targeting Miguel Tejada eventhough we just signed Gonzalez to be our shortstop. I'm guessing the deal would look like this:

Encarnacion, Wood, Olmedo, and Pelland to Baltimore for Tejada

Miguel would then take over at 3B for us and we would have an excellent infield defense, as well as a great offense.

I'm not sure if I would pull the trigger on that deal though; I really want to hold onto EE.

Won't Tejada be a free agent next year though?

VI_RedsFan
11-25-2006, 11:51 AM
Won't Tejada be a free agent next year though?

Yeah, I think he will be, and that's why I would be shaky on this deal (and it is not like I'm hearing rumors of us going after Tejada, it is just speculation on my part). I'm not sure if I would trade a potential stud in EE for a one-year rental in Tejada.

Natty Redlocks
11-25-2006, 12:22 PM
Well, you are sadly mistaken then. If the Reds trade Adam Dunn for Rodrigo Lopez, I'll drive to Cincinnati and slap Mr. Krivsky myself.
I didn't say he'd do that deal; I said that's probably close to what they're offering. If you have any actual knowledge (as opposed to wild speculation) to the contrary, please share.

And if I were an Orioles fan, and they gave up Markakis and Cabrera for a declining one year rental, I'd slap Mr. Angelos even harder.

blumj
11-25-2006, 01:35 PM
Tejada signed for 6 years/$72M after the '03 season, that wouldn't make him a FA for 3 more years, right?

red-in-la
11-25-2006, 01:38 PM
There's really no reason to. With the bullpen and 3/5th of the rotation the way they are, Babe Ruth himself would not make this team a title contender.


Well, at least the answer to whether or not he can pitch would be YES....

Matt700wlw
11-25-2006, 02:45 PM
Reyes stinks and Wainwright's minor league stats as a starter are nothing to get too excited about. He's a great reliever but nothing special as a starter.

Could prove to be right, but I wouldn't be surprised if they try it out

VI_RedsFan
11-25-2006, 05:12 PM
Tejada signed for 6 years/$72M after the '03 season, that wouldn't make him a FA for 3 more years, right?

Oops, I forgot about that. Thanks for informing me, blumj.

Patpacillosjock
11-25-2006, 06:17 PM
Add Baez to that list and I would be happy.

this isnt directed at you loganbuck but i've been reading the past month about how everyone wants Danny Baez...can someone PLEASE explain this to me??? I've never thought he was good and he's had 2 good seasons out of his six..the rest, are mediocre:

lets look at these facts:

1) He is 30 years old and Cuban..which means he's probably 34 years old (jose contreras and el duque say hi)
2) Coming off a year where he went : 59 IP, 60 H, 39 K's, 17 BB 5-6 W-L, 9 saves and 8 blown saves
3) A national league pitcher having a 4.53 ERA?? Let alone a closer??!!!

thats a horrible ERA, K/9ip ratio, terrible K-BB ratio for a closer (almost 2-1), not a great record, and as many blown saves as saves (in 59 appearances)

I understand there arent many FA closers out there but can't we just groom one of our own to be one (rookies, etc) like say, the Cardinals and Red Sox did last year?

BoydsOfSummer
11-25-2006, 07:23 PM
It is not the magnitude of the slobber-knocker deal but the series of transactions that a team makes that improves the overall roster.

With that said, if the Reds could swing a deal with the Orioles for OF Nick Markakis and RHP Daniel Cabrera, I could see it happening especially after the Orioles lost out on the Carlos Lee sweepstakes.

And if there is anyone who believes in series' of transactions, it's Krusty! :laugh:

Patpacillosjock
11-26-2006, 03:14 AM
bump for an answer to my post.

Caveat Emperor
11-26-2006, 03:43 AM
thats a horrible ERA, K/9ip ratio, terrible K-BB ratio for a closer (almost 2-1), not a great record, and as many blown saves as saves (in 59 appearances)

I understand there arent many FA closers out there but can't we just groom one of our own to be one (rookies, etc) like say, the Cardinals and Red Sox did last year?

His 4.53 ERA would've been good enough for one of the top spots in the Reds bullpen last year, if you discount the pitchers who made less than 20 appearences in a Reds uniform.

And, unless I'm grossly mistaken, there isn't a Papelbon or Wainwright in the Reds farm system waiting to be called up -- so that pretty much nixes homegrowing a reliever for the next couple years.

Gotta look somewhere to improve the pen -- Baez isn't great, but he is an improvement over a lot of the crap that has been floating in there.

Patpacillosjock
11-26-2006, 06:38 AM
jesus christ. I am so sick and tired of being content and "settling" for a player just because he is better than what we have. This isnt directed at you Caveat, but it seems like Im the only fan who's been pissed the past 12 months with WK every time he makes a deal.

I expect a helluva lot more from my Reds.

look back to every deal WK has made. Phillips had a career year. Nobody expected him to play that well. As did Arroyo and Ross. Career years people. I expect a severe drop off from all 3 this year.

along with those 3, look at everyone else we've acquired--mediocre players. Yet we give WK a pass because these players ARE in fact an upgrade to a roster that is total trash to begin with. so we see relative improvements and settle for crappy players.

well i'll have none of it. this is my last year to root for the reds (being lifelong thats about 20 years running now) unless there are SIGNIFICANt CHANGES and since i live in LA im gonna root for the Dodgers..at least they know what they're doing.

RANDY IN INDY
11-26-2006, 08:21 AM
Isn't there a Dodger board somewhere?

Newman4
11-26-2006, 08:30 AM
this isnt directed at you loganbuck but i've been reading the past month about how everyone wants Danny Baez...can someone PLEASE explain this to me??? I've never thought he was good and he's had 2 good seasons out of his six..the rest, are mediocre:

lets look at these facts:

1) He is 30 years old and Cuban..which means he's probably 34 years old (jose contreras and el duque say hi)
2) Coming off a year where he went : 59 IP, 60 H, 39 K's, 17 BB 5-6 W-L, 9 saves and 8 blown saves
3) A national league pitcher having a 4.53 ERA?? Let alone a closer??!!!

thats a horrible ERA, K/9ip ratio, terrible K-BB ratio for a closer (almost 2-1), not a great record, and as many blown saves as saves (in 59 appearances)

I understand there arent many FA closers out there but can't we just groom one of our own to be one (rookies, etc) like say, the Cardinals and Red Sox did last year?

I'll try:

Sub .700 lifetime OPS. Doesn't give up a high number of home runs. Has closer experience (40+ saves one year). 2.86 ERA in 2005. Like all clubs, you would be gambling that 2006 was a mirage and what you're getting is more like the 2003-2005 numbers. If 2006 doesn't happen, Baez isn't even being discussed because the Sox, Yanks, etc. would have already plucked him up. I know this doesn't necessarily translate to the 7million per year multi-year contract, but not a bad pitcher to get on your side if it's feasible. Baez is supposed to be 29 BTW.

buckeyenut
11-26-2006, 09:12 AM
jesus christ. I am so sick and tired of being content and "settling" for a player just because he is better than what we have. This isnt directed at you Caveat, but it seems like Im the only fan who's been pissed the past 12 months with WK every time he makes a deal.

I expect a helluva lot more from my Reds.

look back to every deal WK has made. Phillips had a career year. Nobody expected him to play that well. As did Arroyo and Ross. Career years people. I expect a severe drop off from all 3 this year.

along with those 3, look at everyone else we've acquired--mediocre players. Yet we give WK a pass because these players ARE in fact an upgrade to a roster that is total trash to begin with. so we see relative improvements and settle for crappy players.

well i'll have none of it. this is my last year to root for the reds (being lifelong thats about 20 years running now) unless there are SIGNIFICANt CHANGES and since i live in LA im gonna root for the Dodgers..at least they know what they're doing.

Quite frankly, I think your expectations are too high. WK made a ton of moves last year even without much time before the season started. With a full offseason just starting, he has already made a couple of decent (not great, not bad) moves this year.

You say all we have done is acquire mediocre players. I would argue that in whole, we have given up far less than we have gotten. Yeah, the Trade looks bad, but I can't complain about any other deal WK made. Arroyo and Ross were far from mediocre. Hatte and Phillips were a little above mediocre. It remains to be seen at this point if those were career years. For several of those guys, I expect them to be. But the cost for those four players was in total little more than Wily Mo Pena.

This ownership made the effort when they were in the pennant race. WK was not trigger shy. Maybe you don't agree with all the moves, but you cannot say that they weren't trying. And I think getting a player who is better than what you have is key to improving your ballclub.

Not every team is going to sign or trade for a bunch of superstars. In fact, you already have yours on this team in Dunn, Jr, EE and Harang. You sign or trade for a superstar once every 2-3 years at best. Just be patient and give WK a couple of years to see what he can do. I am willing to bet this team this year will be better than last years, and the team in 2008 will be even better.

redsmetz
11-26-2006, 09:36 AM
Quite frankly, I think your expectations are too high. WK made a ton of moves last year even without much time before the season started. With a full offseason just starting, he has already made a couple of decent (not great, not bad) moves this year.

You say all we have done is acquire mediocre players. I would argue that in whole, we have given up far less than we have gotten. Yeah, the Trade looks bad, but I can't complain about any other deal WK made. Arroyo and Ross were far from mediocre. Hatte and Phillips were a little above mediocre. It remains to be seen at this point if those were career years. For several of those guys, I expect them to be. But the cost for those four players was in total little more than Wily Mo Pena.

This ownership made the effort when they were in the pennant race. WK was not trigger shy. Maybe you don't agree with all the moves, but you cannot say that they weren't trying. And I think getting a player who is better than what you have is key to improving your ballclub.

Not every team is going to sign or trade for a bunch of superstars. In fact, you already have yours on this team in Dunn, Jr, EE and Harang. You sign or trade for a superstar once every 2-3 years at best. Just be patient and give WK a couple of years to see what he can do. I am willing to bet this team this year will be better than last years, and the team in 2008 will be even better.

The weakness in the earlier poster's message is that he makes the assumption that Phillips, Arroyo and Ross all had career years. As many of us have noted regularly, you can't judge a "career year" from today's perspective. They may well ultimately prove to be such. Particularly with Phillips, it's too early in his career to know whether he's finally found (change of scenery, playing time, etc.). But with Ross and Arroyo, it's hard to say. He may well be right, but I'm not inclined to agree.

The Reds had so much dreck on board last year that it took a while to clear out the debris. Many of us expressed misgivings about the return from the Casey trade, many of us clearly stated that the trade for Tony Womack was a mistake from the get-go. The bullpen was poorly constructed and it led to quite a number of losses and the treading water approach throughout the season seeing what would stick.

You are correct that blockbusters don't come up often (and I think every 2-3 years is probably more often than it really is - but I quibble). We have to continue to build a winning team and organization bit by bit through every means possible. It takes time, which has been my mantra. It has been noted often here on RZ that we might be better served by passing on much of this year's big name FA's - I think that may well be true.

But I don't share the earlier poster's angst and ultimatum of "one more year" and that's it! A little too dramatic for my taste.

Krusty
11-26-2006, 10:29 AM
Isn't there a Dodger board somewhere?



http://mb9.scout.com/flosangelesdodgersfrm1

Ltlabner
11-26-2006, 02:42 PM
well i'll have none of it. this is my last year to root for the reds (being lifelong thats about 20 years running now) unless there are SIGNIFICANt CHANGES and since i live in LA im gonna root for the Dodgers..at least they know what they're doing.

Tell Tommy Lasorda we said hi. ;)

Heath
11-27-2006, 03:52 PM
http://mb9.scout.com/flosangelesdodgersfrm1

That's the best they can do? No, sonsoftommylasorda.com or BleedDodgerBlue.com

Or, my personal favorites arrivelateleaveearly.com or breakingforKirkGibson.com (Watch the Gibby HR from Game 1 in 1988 and you'll understand)

RichRed
11-27-2006, 04:17 PM
the Dodgers..at least they know what they're doing.

That $45 million contract for Juan Pierre says otherwise.

BoydsOfSummer
11-27-2006, 11:02 PM
That's the best they can do? No, sonsoftommylasorda.com or BleedDodgerBlue.com

Or, my personal favorites arrivelateleaveearly.com or breakingforKirkGibson.com (Watch the Gibby HR from Game 1 in 1988 and you'll understand)


"I DON'T BELIEVE... WHAT I JUST MISSED!"--Jack Buck :laugh:

Patpacillosjock
11-27-2006, 11:46 PM
That $45 million contract for Juan Pierre says otherwise.

Last year they called up rookies who performed extremely well; thus, showing their farm system is pretty damn good. Also players like Kuo (who def replaced Gagne admirably) stepped up out of nowhere..again props to their scouting dept.

Signed Nomar who had an excellent year despite injuries.

Penny and Lowe pitched great last year.

Got maddux who resurrected his season and got them in the playoffs.

Got Lugo, Betemit, Kent, and Furcal all last year--gave them the best infield in the NL outside of NY.

Who knows? maybe they DID overpay for Pierre but other than that, I think their F.O. knows how to build a winner. Their F.O. did not make ONE mistake in the past calendar year

If Nomar doesnt go down, I think they would've gone to the W.S>

Heath
11-28-2006, 07:30 AM
"I DON'T BELIEVE... WHAT I JUST MISSED!"--Jack Buck :laugh:

I hate the Dodgers but Vin Scully's call is absolutely fabulous.