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Wheelhouse
11-27-2006, 06:19 PM
Per Marc's blog: http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

BRM
11-27-2006, 06:21 PM
I thought Wayne Krivsky seemed a bit evasive when we asked him last week about Ross and Valentin serving as the only catchers following the LaRue trade. Lo and behold, the Reds have signed veteran backstop Chad Moeller, who spent last year in the Brewers organization, to a one-year contract. Not sure what this means in the grand scheme just yet, as Moeller appeared in just 31 big-league games last year, but I'm sure it's all part of the master plan.

In other news, the team extended the contracts of its entire medical staff -- head trainer Mark Mann, assistant trainer Steve Baumann, strength and conditioning coordinator Matt Krause, physical therapist John Walker and medical director Dr. Tim Kremchek.

You can never have too many catchers...

reds44
11-27-2006, 06:22 PM
Joy.

The return of 3 catchers. We need catching depth, but I hope we don't keep 3 on the active roster.

paulrichjr
11-27-2006, 06:23 PM
I would rather draft Chad Mottola. I hear he is going to be awesome.

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 06:24 PM
I think Ross is likely a goner. Which is fine. Cash him in.

Johnny Footstool
11-27-2006, 06:24 PM
Narron/Krivsky are doing their best to establish the Cincinnati Home for Wayward Catchers.

I'd much rather have Matt LeCroy as a platoon 1B/emergency catcher.

Ltlabner
11-27-2006, 06:27 PM
Joy.

The return of 3 catchers. We need catching depth, but I hope we don't keep 3 on the active roster.

Acording to the Reds website Miguel Perez is on the active roster so we already have another 3 headed monster. :help:

reds44
11-27-2006, 06:28 PM
I think Ross is likely a goner. Which is fine. Cash him in.
If we can get a starting pitcher, I am all for that.

BRM
11-27-2006, 06:28 PM
I think Ross is likely a goner. Which is fine. Cash him in.

Leaving the Reds with the dynamic duo of Valentin and Moeller?

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 06:30 PM
Leaving the Reds with the dynamic duo of Valentin and Moeller?

I hate Ross's D. Which leaves you with his offensive production (which I think is likely a mirage). I can live with some weak sticks at catcher, provided the D is good.

BRM
11-27-2006, 06:32 PM
I hate Ross's D. Which leaves you with his offensive production (which I think is likely a mirage). I can live with some weak sticks at catcher, provided the D is good.

Would Valentin and Moeller be a good defensive duo? I don't know much about Moeller's D.

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 06:34 PM
Would Valentin and Moeller be a good defensive duo? I don't know much about Moeller's D.

They're both average, IMO. But it beats Ross's bailing act. He's got all the ferocity and toughness of a Teddy Ruxpin.

M2
11-27-2006, 06:37 PM
He's got all the ferocity and toughness of a Teddy Ruxpin.

Sit down, punk! I'm going to read to your ass.

VR
11-27-2006, 06:39 PM
Minor league or major league deal?

This guy has the d to match his o. Which isn't a compliment. If he's the Louisville option...I'm ok w/ that.

Team Clark
11-27-2006, 06:42 PM
I think Ross is likely a goner. Which is fine. Cash him in.

I am beginning to believe that as well. If he's part of a package to bring a suitable upgrade to the staff then it is a no brainer.

BRM
11-27-2006, 06:42 PM
They're both average, IMO. But it beats Ross's bailing act. He's got all the ferocity and toughness of a Teddy Ruxpin.

Average D with weak sticks then. Problem is the Reds are likely to have weak sticks in several spots next year.

Joseph
11-27-2006, 06:43 PM
If we can get a starting pitcher, I am all for that.

If we can get a living, breathing player, or a fair sum of baseballs I'm all for it. The first rule of return on investment is selling at the highest point which is right now. Don't anyone be deluded into thinking he's an 18+ a year HR hitter for the next 5. Hes a no glove, likely to revert, one year wonder.

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 06:43 PM
Sit down, punk! I'm going to read to your ass.

This might need a visual, for the younger set:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000C3L2BG.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 06:45 PM
Average D with weak sticks then. Problem is the Reds are likely to have weak sticks in several spots next year.

You don't have to convince me that the offense is thin on this team. But if you're going to bolster it in any significant way, you might as well do it where the market tends to leak said players: corner outfield, first base.

VR
11-27-2006, 06:48 PM
Would Valentin and Moeller be a good defensive duo? I don't know much about Moeller's D.


Looking at the defensive statistics answer that pretty quickly.

Valentin/LaRue/Ross were all well above average statistically. Moeller.....not so much.

chicoruiz
11-27-2006, 07:00 PM
If he's parked in Louisville as injury insurance I'm all for it. Anything that keeps me from having to see Miguel Perez in a Reds uniform...

Jpup
11-27-2006, 07:08 PM
Should have kept LaRue.:bang:

johngalt
11-27-2006, 07:10 PM
They're both average, IMO. But it beats Ross's bailing act. He's got all the ferocity and toughness of a Teddy Ruxpin.

Wow, I never thought I would see the day that Teddy Ruxpin reference made its way to a baseball forum. Next thing you know we'll be talking about the Berenstein Bears family softball game.

But yeah, to the topic at hand, if we can somehow package Ross, Denorfia and a minor leaguer to nab a pitcher of some sort, I'd be all over it. Ross's 2006 season screams fluke.

Caveat Emperor
11-27-2006, 07:23 PM
Wow, I never thought I would see the day that Teddy Ruxpin reference made its way to a baseball forum. Next thing you know we'll be talking about the Berenstein Bears family softball game.

Word is that Brother Bear is a plus defender in center, but that he struggles with offspeed stuff at the dish.

http://www.ownmadeaudiobooks.com/images/bbteam.jpg

vaticanplum
11-27-2006, 07:27 PM
They're both average, IMO. But it beats Ross's bailing act. He's got all the ferocity and toughness of a Teddy Ruxpin.

Teddy Ruxpin!! :lol:

This board is in rare form. There have been some real gems lately.

gm
11-27-2006, 07:52 PM
They're both average, IMO. But it beats Ross's bailing act.

Damian Miller, Chad Moeller, hard to keep those Brewer's catchers straight

IIRC, Miller was the one who took the big hit from Dunn and held onto the ball, late July early August

M2
11-27-2006, 08:03 PM
Damian Miller, Chad Moeller, hard to keep those Brewer's catchers straight

IIRC, Miller was the one who took the big hit from Dunn and held onto the ball, late July early August

Miller's a tough dude. His first, middle and last names also all have six letters in them.

RedLegSuperStar
11-27-2006, 08:03 PM
Minor league or major league deal?

This guy has the d to match his o. Which isn't a compliment. If he's the Louisville option...I'm ok w/ that.

Rotoworld.com


It really is a major league deal, which is just disgusting. Moeller had a 568 OPS in 317 at-bats in 2004, a 624 OPS in 199 at-bats in 1995 and a 506 OPS in 98 at-bats before the Brewers finally got fed up with him last season. By comparison, Jason LaRue finished at 663 in his disastrous 2006 season. Moeller is just an average defender, so there shouldn't be room for him on a major league roster. There are better catchers littering Triple-A rosters.

I scratch my head at some of these moves.. why are we spending money in areas we don't need to spend money?

redsfanmia
11-27-2006, 08:04 PM
I think we are really overlooking Valentin's role, its mainly as a pinch hitter. How many games did he catch last year? Valentin is a very good pinch hitter, thats his role.

gm
11-27-2006, 08:08 PM
Miller's a tough dude. His first, middle and last names also all have six letters in them.

Milwaukee DFA'd Moeller back in July...are we sure Chad's not just '07 AAA fodder?

CrackerJack
11-27-2006, 08:09 PM
I'm glad Krivsky locked this guy up early, phew.

M2
11-27-2006, 08:09 PM
Milwaukee DFA'd Moeller back in July...are we sure Chad's not just '07 AAA fodder?

That's what I've got him pegged as. I figure that describes Jorgenson too. It probably spells doom for Dane Sardinha though.

gm
11-27-2006, 08:11 PM
Also from Marc's blog...
I see that the Brewers have named Dan O'Brien a special assistant to GM Doug Melvin. He was merely a consultant in Milwaukee last year, so that's a bit more security for O'Brien heading into 2007.

Doug Davis is gone? Sell Milton to the Beermakers. Hard.

harangatang
11-27-2006, 08:29 PM
Didn't Moeller hit for the cycle, while in Milwaukee?

harangatang
11-27-2006, 08:42 PM
Word is that Brother Bear is a plus defender in center, but that he struggles with offspeed stuff at the dish.

http://www.ownmadeaudiobooks.com/images/bbteam.jpgBrother bear has a Jeff Bagwell-like stance at the plate. I'm putting my money on him being this year's reclamation project.

Mario-Rijo
11-27-2006, 08:44 PM
Didn't Moeller hit for the cycle, while in Milwaukee?

Yeah vs. Us!!

savafan
11-27-2006, 08:49 PM
I'm dumbfounded by this...absolutely dumbfounded...

kbrake
11-27-2006, 09:01 PM
I am confused. What the hell is Krivsky doing? If Moeller was a defensive stud it would be one thing, but this is a joke. So now we can trade Ross, who will bring us almost nothing in return, and watch Chad freaking Moeller everyday behind the plate. Unreal.

captainmorgan07
11-27-2006, 09:01 PM
i'll hold my comments on this move till i see wat else happens

Rojo
11-27-2006, 09:12 PM
Miller's a tough dude. His first, middle and last names also all have six letters in them.

Just like Ronald Wilson Reagan.

If you're barrelling down third, heading for a play at the plate, wouldn't you slam into the catcher with a tiny bit more gusto knowing his name is Chad?

M2
11-27-2006, 09:14 PM
If you're barrelling down third, heading for a play at the plate, wouldn't you slam into the catcher with a tiny bit more gusto knowing his name is Chad?

But his last name is Moeller, so you've got to consider the possibility that he bites.

WVRedsFan
11-27-2006, 09:18 PM
From Marc's blog:

You need depth," said Krivsky. "You need a team. You need guys with roles. You just can’t go with two catchers – you’d better have depth there. If someone gets hurt, a foul tip, you’re out there scrambling. You’d better have some depth at that position. That’s what we’re doing here."

And Moeller's .184 average in 29 games with the Brewers last year?

"He’s better than that," said Krivsky.

And people wonder why I've lost faith in Krivsky. Surely, he'll make some meaningful moves yet. Then again, he made them last year and we got worse. :bang:

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 09:29 PM
Should have kept LaRue.:bang:

This has been my take all along; keep Larue, shop Ross. But of course that ship's done gone.

GAC
11-27-2006, 09:39 PM
Again, some are making way to much of this acquisition, like the Crosby one.

The guy made $700,000 with the Brewers last year before DFA'd.

What we signed him for has not been released, but I bet it was far less then that, and he is simply insurance that will be sitting in Louisville. Nothing more.

savafan
11-27-2006, 09:41 PM
What we signed him for has not been released, but I bet it was far less then that, and he is simply insurance that will be sitting in Louisville. Nothing more.

If that was the case, then he should have been signed to a minor league contract with an invite to ST, not a guaranteed major league deal...

flyer85
11-27-2006, 09:45 PM
i'll hold my comments on this move till i see wat else happenslot of people keep saying that but Krivsky seems to relish collecting other peoples garbage.

RedFanAlways1966
11-27-2006, 09:48 PM
Didn't Moeller hit for the cycle, while in Milwaukee?

Good memory, harangatang, but... bad memories and a horrible 2-game series for the 2004 REDS team. April 27 & 28.

Game 1: Moeller does hit for the cycle. The late Cory Lidle started for the REDS that day. The REDS managed only 9 hits in the game, but they received 9 walks from the Brewers pitching. Despite Moeller's cycle in the game the REDS led 8-7 as the game went to the bottom of the 9th. "Nobody scores on" Danny Graves gave up a 2-run walkoff HR to Bill Hall as the REDS lost 9-8.

Game 2: The REDS hold a 9-0 lead. The REDS lose 10-9 in 10 innings on a Bill Hall suicide squeeze bunt! Jason LaRue goes 3-for-5 with 4 RBIs... but breaks his finger in the game and lands on the DL.

2 games, 2 blown saves, 2 losses. :help:

Caveat Emperor
11-27-2006, 09:51 PM
But his last name is Moeller, so you've got to consider the possibility that he bites.

Oh, there's no real debate -- after looking at his numbers, I'm fairly confident that he bites.

Spring~Fields
11-27-2006, 09:54 PM
What we signed him for has not been released,


Not even your bearded friend Nostradamus could answer that one.

Some things are better left unsaid!! :eek:

It is a relief to know that it is not compulsory for us to comment on these Krivsky upgrades.

Spring~Fields
11-27-2006, 09:56 PM
lot of people keep saying that but Krivsky seems to relish collecting other peoples garbage.

Yes, as it is becoming so obvious that even the optimist can no longer deny his patterns.

TheBigLebowski
11-27-2006, 10:01 PM
I don't care what else we've got cooking - there is no effing reason to sign a Chad Moeller. None. This move is baffling. Bewildering.

I know many here expect David Ross to revert to career norms in '06 (I do not happen to expect that), but the thought of a Valentin/Moeller '06 angries up the blood.

I need a beer.

I am not excited about '06.

GAC
11-27-2006, 10:10 PM
If that was the case, then he should have been signed to a minor league contract with an invite to ST, not a guaranteed major league deal...

It's a 1 yr deal, and I bet for a small amount. No huge investment was made IMO that hurts/hamstrings this FO from making other and more needed moves.

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 10:12 PM
As long as this deal is prelude to dealing Ross, I don't care.

Always Red
11-27-2006, 10:12 PM
of note, Moeller made his MLB debut in 2000, with the...you guessed it...Twins.

Sheesh, Redsfest is going to be a blast, eh? The Astros got Lee and Williams, the Reds got, well, ummm, err, Crosby and Moeller.

I hear Womack is looking for work.

sigh...

Ron Madden
11-27-2006, 10:17 PM
Wow,

My head hurts. :confused:

flyer85
11-27-2006, 10:20 PM
It's a 1 yr deal, and I bet for a small amount. No huge investment was made IMO that hurts/hamstrings this FO from making other and more needed moves.3 words ... below replacement level

Heath
11-27-2006, 10:32 PM
i'm post #57 and no one's really made mention of the extensions given to the medical staff.

I'm stoked listening to Doc Hollywood's hyperbole for the 2007 season. I can't wait to play Redleg Medical Bingo.

As far as Chad Moeller being a Red, nothing is more synomous with Cincinnati than Moeller.

Ltlabner
11-27-2006, 10:35 PM
"He is capable of doing more with the bat than he did this past year," Krivsky said. "His reputation is handling pitching staffs. The value of Chad Moeller may not read out on the stat sheets, but we feel he has value."

From the Reds.com website.

Yikes. This is one headscratcher of a move. I guess we're going with three catchers again. I guess you can say Javy is a more of a PH these days but I hope this isn't some weird way that means he'll be spending time at 1B platooning with Hatte.

I guess if your heart is set on three catchers you can make it work, but wasn't there anybody available better than this guy? Lifetime .227 BA with .640 OPS and about 24% of his at bats end in strike outs. His CS% is an anemic 25% (Javy nails about 34% of those who attempt to steal on him while Ross is pushing 40%) so his arm is nothing. His CERA is 4.03 which is lower than Javy's 5.09 but David Ross's is 4.26 so Moeller's isn't that much better so I'm not sure where handling the pitching staff will be a big asset. (I know there's way too many factors with CERA that are beyond a catchers controll - just some info for comparison).

Either this is another rabbit out of a hat ala Ross and Phillips or just one plain weird move.

Redsland
11-27-2006, 10:41 PM
The Reds might be the first team that traded away a superfluous .190 hitter and then got worse.

:thumbdown


Valentin is a very good pinch hitter, thats his role.
In "his role" he's accumulated 83 ABs and hit .193/.264/.337/.601.

Might be time for him to find a new one. Is there such a thing as "fourth catcher"?


It probably spells doom for Dane Sardinha though.
Dane declared free agency, FYI.

"He's better than that."
Esteban Yan (http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060530&content_id=1479637&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin) better?
Gary Majewski and Royce Clayton (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/08/24/reds.thursday/index.html) better?
Rheal Cormier (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:CSMk1OuqOi8J:news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20060801/SPT04/608010398/1071+krivsky+on+rheal+cormier&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=firefox-a) better?
Sun Woo Kim (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:2v3agl5f-AEJ:news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20060906/SPT04/609060360/1071/SPT+krivsky+on+sun+woo+kim&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a) better?
Todd Hollandsworth better? Quinton McCracken better? Tuffy Rhodes better? Joe Mays better? Ryan Franklin better? Juan Castro better? Mike Venafro better? Timo Perez better? Terrence Long better? Matt Kata better?

How much better than that is he, Wayne?

Falls City Beer
11-27-2006, 10:48 PM
Who knew that it would be Chad Moeller who crashed the Wayne fan bus?

Nugget
11-27-2006, 10:58 PM
It's probably the same deal that Crosby got signed to. An amount if he makes it onto the major league roster different amount if he stays in the minors.

I'm sure doug will be able to confirm but the REDS are pretty thin in AAA and you don't need to be calling up rookies for a couple days.

alloverjr
11-27-2006, 11:01 PM
It's not yet the first of December and I'm already wishing the season was over. You think Cast is laughed at by his St Louis buds?

What an odd, meaningless (I say that with much reservation) and plain goofy move. Gotta be better options than him for like or even lower $'s. :confused:

Spring~Fields
11-27-2006, 11:05 PM
I'm stoked listening to Doc Hollywood's hyperbole for the 2007 season. I can't wait to play Redleg Medical Bingo.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Willy
11-27-2006, 11:08 PM
Who knew that it would be Chad Moeller who crashed the Wayne fan bus?

LOL, I think we are all starving for some positive activity. No reason to blow a gasket for basicly a non move. We have no idea what this signing means. Maybe Valentin is about to to be traded. Maybe Wayne is getting a lot of offers for Ross and wanted to have some depth at catcher going into the Winter meetings. Maybe Wayne has a fetish for catchers. Who knows!!!

Like others have said, I have no idea where this is going, but I can't wait til we see the final(if there is such a thing with Wayne) product.

Go Reds!!

savafan
11-27-2006, 11:10 PM
Maybe Wayne is getting a lot of offers for Ross and wanted to have some depth at catcher going into the Winter meetings.


Well if he wanted catching depth, maybe that's what he should have acquired. I want a catcher, not a belly scratcher!

Isn't Johnny Bench an advisor in the front office here? C'mon...

Spring~Fields
11-27-2006, 11:13 PM
Esteban Yan (http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060530&content_id=1479637&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin) better?
Gary Majewski and Royce Clayton (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/08/24/reds.thursday/index.html) better?
Rheal Cormier (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:CSMk1OuqOi8J:news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20060801/SPT04/608010398/1071+krivsky+on+rheal+cormier&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=firefox-a) better?
Sun Woo Kim (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:2v3agl5f-AEJ:news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20060906/SPT04/609060360/1071/SPT+krivsky+on+sun+woo+kim&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a) better?
Todd Hollandsworth better? Quinton McCracken better? Tuffy Rhodes better? Joe Mays better? Ryan Franklin better? Juan Castro better? Mike Venafro better? Timo Perez better? Terrence Long better? Matt Kata better?

How much better than that is he, Wayne?

That's what we are talking about!!

Those are not just a few.

Now we can add Bubba and Chad to the list.

Did Krivsky develop a Messiah complex when he came up with Arroyo and Phillips?

traderumor
11-27-2006, 11:17 PM
Look at the chickens peck for that corn Krivsky just threw on the ground.

Cedric
11-27-2006, 11:21 PM
Who knew that it would be Chad Moeller who crashed the Wayne fan bus?

Who knew the drama over every single tiny signing?

The melodrama on this board is actually hilarious once you get down to it.

vaticanplum
11-27-2006, 11:22 PM
:)

I gotta say this for the Reds, being a fan of theirs is never less than entertaining.

Spring~Fields
11-27-2006, 11:24 PM
:)

I gotta say this for the Reds, being a fan of theirs is never less than entertaining.

Who knew that Krivsky was building a comedy team? :devil:

mbgrayson
11-27-2006, 11:44 PM
I know many here expect David Ross to revert to career norms in '06 (I do not happen to expect that), but the thought of a Valentin/Moeller '06 angries up the blood....
I am not excited about '06.

I am not either. I predict we will finish 80-82 in 2006.

Now in 2007....... ;)

corkedbat
11-27-2006, 11:57 PM
If he's parked in Louisville as injury insurance I'm all for it. Anything that keeps me from having to see Miguel Perez in a Reds uniform...

At least Perez could give us solid defense while he was completely sucking at the plate.

redsmetz
11-28-2006, 12:14 AM
LOL, I think we are all starving for some positive activity. No reason to blow a gasket for basicly a non move. We have no idea what this signing means. Maybe Valentin is about to to be traded. Maybe Wayne is getting a lot of offers for Ross and wanted to have some depth at catcher going into the Winter meetings. Maybe Wayne has a fetish for catchers. Who knows!!!

Like others have said, I have no idea where this is going, but I can't wait til we see the final(if there is such a thing with Wayne) product.

Go Reds!!

Maybe he just gets his jollies yanking the chains of Redzone posters? :laugh:

You are right. Folks shouldn't get their shorts in a bunch over every tiny move. It's a long offseason.

http://previews.awap.tv/123645.gif

Kc61
11-28-2006, 01:27 AM
I've been pro-Krivsky, pro-Castellini.

But starting to get a little nervous. Winter meetings next week. Can we please get better?

WVRedsFan
11-28-2006, 02:29 AM
Who knew the drama over every single tiny signing?

The melodrama on this board is actually hilarious once you get down to it.

It shows a pattern. One that many do not like. After Arroyo, Phillips, and Ross, what positives do you see?

I certainly hope this is just the beginning of the team acquiring a starter (or two) and an outfielder with pop, but I don't expect it unless they have a Twins background or are cheap.

I can imagine Bob C sitting around and wondering what is going on with this GM who seems to screw up at every chance. Never in my lifetime has this club carried three catchers until this year. My guess is that it's Narron's idea and that's one of my concerns. Krivsky and Cast worship the guy and that will be the undoing of this franchise if it continues.

Cedric
11-28-2006, 02:38 AM
It shows a pattern. One that many do not like. After Arroyo, Phillips, and Ross, what positives do you see?

I certainly hope this is just the beginning of the team acquiring a starter (or two) and an outfielder with pop, but I don't expect it unless they have a Twins background or are cheap.

I can imagine Bob C sitting around and wondering what is going on with this GM who seems to screw up at every chance. Never in my lifetime has this club carried three catchers until this year. My guess is that it's Narron's idea and that's one of my concerns. Krivsky and Cast worship the guy and that will be the undoing of this franchise if it continues.

Trades aren't going to happen for a few weeks. I don't think you get a reward for being the fastest out of the gate during free agency period. That's unless you got a reasonable target and you lose him, I don't see that happening here.

It's a AAA signing, it's really nothing to even talk about IMO.

redsmetz
11-28-2006, 07:17 AM
I came across this assessment on Sportsnet.ca

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/players/Chad_Moeller/

(includes total career stats including minor league)



Scouting Report

Assets

He has a pretty good arm and knows how to handle pitchers. At the plate, he thrives against softer breaking stuff.

Flaws

He tends to hit the ball on the ground too much, which is not a good idea for a slow catcher. Fails with runners in scoring position and in the second half.

Career potential

Strong backup catcher.


We've had many a backup catcher like this. It's too early, as some have noted, to know what this signing means. I'm doubtful that we'll see the three catcher scenario again this year. Krivsky has said repeatedly that he's never done, so I assume more is in the work over the next three to four months of the offseason. It continues to be way too early to assess Wayne's legacy.

RANDY IN INDY
11-28-2006, 08:05 AM
Fails with runners in scoring position

Won't have any trouble fitting in.;)

Heath
11-28-2006, 08:25 AM
I've been pro-Krivsky, pro-Castellini.

But starting to get a little nervous. Winter meetings next week. Can we please get better?

Hey, me too. But this isn't some type of thing where Samantha comes in and wiggles her nose and presto! World Series club.

I understand the patience running thin, but the same people who don't want to blow it up are the same people who don't want to overspend. That's a mighty fine line.

We are currently reaping the benefits of James Bowden's drafting from 1999-2003. That's what the suck is about.

See me on Opening Day with a roster of 25.

Always Red
11-28-2006, 08:26 AM
Who knew that it would be Chad Moeller who crashed the Wayne fan bus?

Promises were made, hopes were raised, tickets were bought (at least by those on Redszone), in the excitement of seeing payroll raised and new blood infused.

I know Moeller and Crosby were small moves, but the faithful remnant here are starting to get a bit impatient for something, anything to happen. Gonzalez was a necessary (some would say not), expensive, unexciting addition. Kind of like getting new Michelins on an old car, important for safety, but, blaaahhh, and expensive, and maybe there are cheaper tires you could buy that would work.

This market is so overpriced and crazy, it makes the planned payroll increase moot- the extra $ won't buy you anything extra.

I'd like to see Krivsky add another back of the rotation SP, and then go to war with what we have now, putting the rest of the money into development and scouting, and building from within. The Eaton signing was just insane; basically paying this guy $24 million to continue to rehab for three more years.

I've been generally a Kriv and Cast apologist here; and even defended Kriv last summer during the Kearns/Lopez debacle. I'm beginning to have 2nd thoughts about Kriv, but not Cast, at least not yet.

What I'd like to see from Kriv is some direction- some verbal communication to the fan base (the rabid fan base- like those here) of what the general plan is, what direction this team is going. The silence leads to indifference, which leads to more apathy, which is something this team cannot afford, either.

I'm not looking for a detailed business plan, or scouting reports, just some generalized description of an overall plan, of what we can expect (big money for FA's? or building up the farm system instead?).

I know better than to expect that he'll say anything- that would lead to expectations, and something to measure him against.

Roy Tucker
11-28-2006, 08:45 AM
I don't see how exchanging Jason Larue for Chad Moeller makes this a better ballclub.

Lower priced, yes. A little jollier, yes. But talent on the ballfield, no.

buckeyenut
11-28-2006, 09:15 AM
I don't see how exchanging Jason Larue for Chad Moeller makes this a better ballclub.

Lower priced, yes. A little jollier, yes. But talent on the ballfield, no.

Do you honestly think WK thinks he made the ballclub better with that exchange?

We don't know PTBNL. We don't know the $$ on the contract. We don't know what the excess money from Larue is going to be used for. We don't know if Cowboy was causing problems in the clubhouse and had caused irrepairable damage with Narron or WK. There are a lot of things we don't know at this point. Basically, we are the blind man feeling one of the elephant's legs and trying to figure out it is an elephant.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 09:43 AM
I'm not looking for a detailed business plan, or scouting reports, just some generalized description of an overall plan, of what we can expect (big money for FA's? or building up the farm system instead?).

I know better than to expect that he'll say anything- that would lead to expectations, and something to measure him against.

When did it become an obligation of the GM to spell out a "generalized description of an overall plan" to the fans? Can a skillfull GM use information like this as quality PR and fan relations, of course. But I don't think he's under any obligation to hold interviews, have an internet chat session or post an open letter to the fans to say, "Ok, what I plan to do first is..........".

FCB nailed it on a different thread. It's about the actions. While he and I dissagree about whether this team has improved over the past year, he is dead on that it's actions/results that matter, not words or press releases.

Frankly, I think he's told us his "generlized plan" it's just not the plan some wanted to hear. Smaller non-sexy player moves, Pitching & Defence, reduce strike outs, work hard, etc. You may question how he is implementing that plan but that doesn't change that he'd made it pretty clear that is the direction we are heading.

But again, at the end of the day I don't think any GM/CEO has an obligation to tell the fans anything.

redsfan4445
11-28-2006, 09:59 AM
When did it become an obligation of the GM to spell out a "generalized description of an overall plan" to the fans? Can a skillfull GM use information like this as quality PR and fan relations, of course. But I don't think he's under any obligation to hold interviews, have an internet chat session or post an open letter to the fans to say, "Ok, what I plan to do first is..........".

FCB nailed it on a different thread. It's about the actions. While he and I dissagree about whether this team has improved over the past year, he is dead on that it's actions/results that matter, not words or press releases.

Frankly, I think he's told us his "generlized plan" it's just not the plan some wanted to hear. Smaller non-sexy player moves, Pitching & Defence, reduce strike outs, work hard, etc. You may question how he is implementing that plan but that doesn't change that he'd made it pretty clear that is the direction we are heading.

But again, at the end of the day I don't think any GM/CEO has an obligation to tell the fans anything.

No they just told us to pay more for the product that is on the field.. yippie!!!

redsmetz
11-28-2006, 10:05 AM
When did it become an obligation of the GM to spell out a "generalized description of an overall plan" to the fans? Can a skillfull GM use information like this as quality PR and fan relations, of course. But I don't think he's under any obligation to hold interviews, have an internet chat session or post an open letter to the fans to say, "Ok, what I plan to do first is..........".

FCB nailed it on a different thread. It's about the actions. While he and I dissagree about whether this team has improved over the past year, he is dead on that it's actions/results that matter, not words or press releases.

Frankly, I think he's told us his "generlized plan" it's just not the plan some wanted to hear. Smaller non-sexy player moves, Pitching & Defence, reduce strike outs, work hard, etc. You may question how he is implementing that plan but that doesn't change that he'd made it pretty clear that is the direction we are heading.

But again, at the end of the day I don't think any GM/CEO has an obligation to tell the fans anything.

Your summary is a good one. I think part of what we're facing here is an increasingly volatile market that EVERY G.M. is trying to get a handle on. We've got a "need to know now" mentality anymore in this Information Highway world that doesn't see eye to eye with the methodical rebuilding of a team. I don't believe each move is necessarily a quid pro quo of the next (e.g. Moeller isn't necessarily the actual replacement move for a LaRue trade. I think we're seeing pieces assembled and, as one poster aptly noted, let's see what's there coming Opening Day.

We may actually see some of the "larger picture" info come out during RedsFest and more movement during the Winter Meetings, we need to recognize that the needs of this organization are myriad. Some of correctly noted scouting and development. The Rule V draft awaits, there are other "non-sexy" free agent moves. As a lesson in these types of moves, look at the Winter 2002 signing of a little known 26 year old player out of the Devil Rays organization, Ryan Freel, with only 22 AB's at the Major League level with Toronto. He did have a decent 2002 at AAA Durham (.261, 8 HR's 37 SB's, 48RBI's), but he's now a fan favorite who some believe should be a starter. Sexy it wasn't, even with that little dude in his head.

cumberlandreds
11-28-2006, 10:06 AM
IMO,Moeller is nothing but veteran insurance for the chance that Ross or Valentin go down with a major injury. I wouldn't read anymore than that into this signing.

GAC
11-28-2006, 10:17 AM
Promises were made, hopes were raised, tickets were bought (at least by those on Redszone), in the excitement of seeing payroll raised and new blood infused.

but the faithful remnant here are starting to get a bit impatient for something, anything to happen.

And alot of that remnant were screaming this exact same sentiment last summer, right before the break, concerning addressing this bullpen - "Do something, ANYTHING, Wayne."

Well he did.

It was a rash "anything" move which left a bad taste in alot of people's mouths to this very day.

So now many are screaming that same sentiment all over again?

I don't want any more moves like that.

I don't want a "something, anything" move that results in another Milton-type contract being given out to a marginal pitcher so that in two years we can all be screaming about the contract, and can we somehow trade this guy.

I want the guy out there trying to make a deal for another SP. And I believe he is. But I don't want foolish and rash moves that bring home a Weaver or Suppan type for 3 yrs/30 Mil.

We need pitching. But so does every other team in MLB.

It's a tough spot for any GM to be in right now.

And no one is moving on the FA pitchers available, and I think it's because those meetings are about to reconvene, and everyone else is waiting for someone else to make the first move and see what the standard is.

And usually, the team that makes the first move is going to be a big market team.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Zito be the first to sign.



What I'd like to see from Kriv is some direction- some verbal communication to the fan base (the rabid fan base- like those here) of what the general plan is, what direction this team is going. The silence leads to indifference, which leads to more apathy, which is something this team cannot afford, either.

I'm not looking for a detailed business plan, or scouting reports, just some generalized description of an overall plan, of what we can expect (big money for FA's? or building up the farm system instead?).

He is not going to publically reveal too much RIGHT NOW going into winter meetings with other GMs. Not a smart move.

But Kriv has this past summer talked in generalities about his approach and direction he wants to take this organization. I've listened to him numerous times on the subject concerning better farm system structure overall... scouting and development.

Teams like the Reds have to lean MORE in that direction then FA. But he has also stated that one shouldn't be afraid to enter the market to go after a player/need.

Under Ryan, he believes in solid pitching and strong defense; but not to the utter denial of offense. I think he has also learned to combine shrewdness (not simply being John Allen cheap) and wisdom in spending/handling an organization's finances.

He has no problem with spending money (i.e Dunn); but isn't simply going to throw it around carelessly or needlessly simply because it's burning a hole in his pocket.

Always Red
11-28-2006, 10:18 AM
When did it become an obligation of the GM to spell out a "generalized description of an overall plan" to the fans? Can a skillfull GM use information like this as quality PR and fan relations, of course. But I don't think he's under any obligation to hold interviews, have an internet chat session or post an open letter to the fans to say, "Ok, what I plan to do first is..........".

FCB nailed it on a different thread. It's about the actions. While he and I dissagree about whether this team has improved over the past year, he is dead on that it's actions/results that matter, not words or press releases.

Frankly, I think he's told us his "generlized plan" it's just not the plan some wanted to hear. Smaller non-sexy player moves, Pitching & Defence, reduce strike outs, work hard, etc. You may question how he is implementing that plan but that doesn't change that he'd made it pretty clear that is the direction we are heading.

But again, at the end of the day I don't think any GM/CEO has an obligation to tell the fans anything.
I figured a response such as this was coming, and it is a fair question; but I never said anything about Krivsky's PR being an obligation.

Tell the fans nothing, and a lack of interest follows, especially a team that has limited resources, and is generally uninteresting, except for those diehards such as us.

Cashman and Epstein can certainly say nothing and get away with it- but then again they do not do that, they frequently address the teams needs and direction much more with their fan base than Krivsky does. Is Krivsky less skillful, as you say above, for not doing so? Well, PR is not his job, per se, it's about building a team. But if he's working with Castellini to try to generate interest and thus increased ticket sales for this team, well, I don't think it's working. Yet. I'll wait until April before I make any final decisions, in my mind, on Krivsky. I was williing to give him a pass for last year, as he did not have an offseason to work with.

Part of his job, as GM of a struggling, small market, generally recently unsuccessful team, could be seen as to generate fan interest, and produce some positive PR.

It certainly would help me to keep the faith, that's for sure.

But in the end, you're right, and so is FCB. The actions certainly do speak louder than anything else.

And all I really do care about is having a winning baseball team, to be honest. But in November, I'd like to see at least signs of some effort towards that. The Cards are the Cards, and the Cubs, Astros and Brewers have all been very active. Activity is not necessary if your team is good enough to stand pat. Is this team good enough for that?

NJReds
11-28-2006, 10:21 AM
I've been pro-Krivsky, pro-Castellini.

Same here, but I'm getting tired of picking through other teams' trash for players. There better be some splash during this offseason, otherwise all of Castellini's proclamations about "winning now" are nothing more than bluster. I guess we'll see.

NJReds
11-28-2006, 10:22 AM
IMO,Moeller is nothing but veteran insurance for the chance that Ross or Valentin go down with a major injury. I wouldn't read anymore than that into this signing.

That's what all our signings seem to be...AAAA players. Break glass in case of emergency. That'd be fine if we had a roster of starting players that were capable of winning the division.Right now we're much closer to the bottom then the top, however.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 10:26 AM
Part of his job, as GM of a struggling, small market, generally recently unsuccessful team, could be seen as to generate fan interest, and produce some positive PR.

It certainly would help me to keep the faith, that's for sure.

Activity is not necessary if your team is good enough to stand pat. Is this team good enough for that?

You make two good points. I agree that a skillfull GM could use fan relations/PR as a vehicle to raise fan interest. That still doesn't have to include sharing his "plan", however. But you are right that if done well its one more tool to raise fan interest.

I don't think it's a matter of the Reds as is being "good enough". Would you have wanted to sign Juan Pierre to his contract to have some activity? How about the Lee or Sorrano deals just to have activity? That pitcher for the O's just to have some activity?

I posted somewhere else that I don't agree with the premise that activity = comittment to winning = good.

GAC
11-28-2006, 10:28 AM
3 words ... below replacement level

He is not replacing anyone.

But if you're referring to Jason, then it's not hard to replace LaRue's performance last year. ;)

But our starting catching tandem is Ross and Valentin.

He's a friggin injury reserve backup catcher, signed for one measily year for I bet under $500,000 (we'll see).

Who would you have went after? Who is available out there, as far as a catcher?

Please don't say you would have retained LaRue?

Redsland
11-28-2006, 10:44 AM
Trades aren't going to happen for a few weeks.
Tell that to the Diamondbacks, Brewers, Marlins, Angels, Royals, Mets, Cubs, White Sox, Padres, Orioles, Yankees, Tigers, and Indians, all of whom have already consummated at least one trade in November.

It's a AAA signing, it's really nothing to even talk about IMO.
No, it's not a AAA signing. That's the whole problem. It's a guaranteed major league contract and a 40-man spot for a extraneous part.

Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 10:48 AM
Tell that to the Diamondbacks, Brewers, Marlins, Angels, Royals, Mets, Cubs, White Sox, Padres, Orioles, Yankees, Tigers, and Indians, all of whom have already consummated at least one trade in November.

No, it's not a AAA signing. That's the whole problem. It's a guaranteed major league contract and a 40-man spot for a extraneous part.

Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team.

Actually the Reds traded LaRue to the Royals. That happened in November IIRC. That counts as at least one trade doesn't it?

Always Red
11-28-2006, 10:49 AM
You make two good points. I agree that a skillfull GM could use fan relations/PR as a vehicle to raise fan interest. That still doesn't have to include sharing his "plan", however. But you are right that if done well its one more tool to raise fan interest.

I don't think it's a matter of the Reds as is being "good enough". Would you have wanted to sign Juan Pierre to his contract to have some activity? How about the Lee or Sorrano deals just to have activity? That pitcher for the O's just to have some activity?

I posted somewhere else that I don't agree with the premise that activity = comittment to winning = good.

Abner, you are right about "any" activity. Mindless activity is just, well, mindless.;)

I also agree with you re: Pierre, Lee or Soriano. Of those three, I'd love to have Soriano, but not at that price. Denorfia could actually be Juan Pierre, if he produced on the MLB level as he did in the minors (I know, there are a lot of really good minor leaguers who never pan out).

But this Reds team, in order to advance (and I believe they were competetive last year) will require activity. Standing pat is not an option- that's a step backwards, IMO. Unless the plan is to go with Bailey, Votto and Bruce, which it may well be. They may need a little more seasoning though.

Now, if by "activity" that means putting more effort and energy into developing our own guys in the minors, well, I'm fine with that, and I'd actually prefer that, to be honest. But that will mean a couple of rough years, waiting for Milton and Griffey's contracts to come off the books.

And Castellini said he wanted to win, now.

So, in a very roundabout way, I guess I have arrived at a point when I wonder if Castellini's words and promise of wanting to win championships, right now, are the actual plan being implemented by Wayne and the FO? :dunno:

RANDY IN INDY
11-28-2006, 10:51 AM
Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team

And what and who might that immediate fix be, this 28th day of November, and who are the teams and principles lining up to make the deal(s) that are going fix the Reds problems?

Puffy
11-28-2006, 10:51 AM
Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team.

word.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 10:52 AM
BTW, have the details of the contract been announced somewhere? Some are saying it's minor league, some major league guarenteed. Did I miss the announcement with the details?

Redsland
11-28-2006, 11:03 AM
BTW, have the details of the contract been announced somewhere? Some are saying it's minor league, some major league guarenteed. Did I miss the announcement with the details?
No one but Zoners have said it's a minor league contract. Published reports from Fay and Lancaster both say it's a major league deal.

redsmetz
11-28-2006, 11:03 AM
BTW, have the details of the contract been announced somewhere? Some are saying it's minor league, some major league guarenteed. Did I miss the announcement with the details?

It's certainly not clear. I thought they gave Crosby a split contract and he is listed on the 40 man roster and the Transaction listing only says signed to a Major League Contract, but I'm pretty sure he was the player given a split contract.

Right now, the 40 man roster stands at 39 players, which leaves one slot. My guess is there will not be any moves prior to the Rule V draft, but then again, I could be mistaken about that. Right now there are several players on the 40 man who were activated from the 60 day DL, which I think is a requirement at this time of year. I'm hoping that they can be placed on the 60 day again after the Rule V draft, but again, I don't know those rules.

We'll see.

Redsland
11-28-2006, 11:04 AM
Actually the Reds traded LaRue to the Royals. That happened in November IIRC. That counts as at least one trade doesn't it?
Of course. The Royals are listed. Kinda makes you wonder why Ced said that trades weren't happening.

Redsland
11-28-2006, 11:10 AM
It's certainly not clear. I thought they gave Crosby a split contract and he is listed on the 40 man roster and the Transaction listing only says signed to a Major League Contract, but I'm pretty sure he was the player given a split contract.
The Reds' press release said he was given a major league contract. That's also what Mark Shelton reported.

Here's the Reds' presser (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20061110&content_id=1738751&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin).

WVRedsFan
11-28-2006, 11:42 AM
When did it become an obligation of the GM to spell out a "generalized description of an overall plan" to the fans? Can a skillfull GM use information like this as quality PR and fan relations, of course. But I don't think he's under any obligation to hold interviews, have an internet chat session or post an open letter to the fans to say, "Ok, what I plan to do first is..........".

FCB nailed it on a different thread. It's about the actions. While he and I dissagree about whether this team has improved over the past year, he is dead on that it's actions/results that matter, not words or press releases.

Frankly, I think he's told us his "generlized plan" it's just not the plan some wanted to hear. Smaller non-sexy player moves, Pitching & Defence, reduce strike outs, work hard, etc. You may question how he is implementing that plan but that doesn't change that he'd made it pretty clear that is the direction we are heading.

But again, at the end of the day I don't think any GM/CEO has an obligation to tell the fans anything.

Interesting post from many angles. You are correct when you say that the GM/CEO has no obligation to tell the fans anything, but I contend when you are depending on the good will and $$$ of the fans, it might be the prudent thing to do, which reminds me of a story...

Years ago, the local high school decided it wasn't the parents' or the boosters' business to find out what was going on with the football team. Schedules were hard to come by and the coaching staff was ordered to not talk to the press. In addition, ticket prices were raised and when folks asked they were told that "the school was running the athletic program and they made the decisions. Others would have no say." Attendance dropped to nearly half, the team floundered and the school officials shook their heads in wonder. How could the fans and even the parents of players forsake them?

Yes, the Cincinnati Reds are a private corporation who can do whatever they want without our permission. I also have the right to not spend my money on that particular product. Too many forget this. As the old saying goes, "If Momma ain't happy, nobody's happy." Exchange "Momma" with "the fans," and you get the idea.

Hopefully, there is a plan, but all we have so far is "scrappy, plays the game the right way, and he's better than that." I hope and pray this becomes clearer as the days go on, but I have my doubts.

westofyou
11-28-2006, 11:47 AM
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but Moeller's another former Twin.

Moeller and Barajas both got really started at the same time on the Diamondbacks, but they took different paths.



Moeller

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
2000 Twins 25 48 128 13 27 3 1 1 0.78 9 9 33 1 0 .211 .273 .261 .534
2001 Diamondbacks 26 25 56 8 13 0 1 1 1.79 2 6 12 0 0 .232 .321 .306 .628
2002 Diamondbacks 27 37 105 10 30 11 1 2 1.90 16 17 23 0 1 .286 .467 .385 .852
2003 Diamondbacks 28 78 239 29 64 17 1 7 2.93 29 23 59 1 2 .268 .435 .335 .770
2004 Brewers 29 101 317 25 66 13 1 5 1.58 27 21 74 0 1 .208 .303 .265 .568
2005 Brewers 30 66 199 23 41 9 1 7 3.52 23 13 48 0 0 .206 .367 .257 .624
2006 Brewers 31 29 98 9 18 3 0 2 2.04 5 4 26 0 0 .184 .276 .231 .506
TOTALS 384 1142 117 259 56 6 25 2.19 111 93 275 2 4 .227 .352 .289 .641
LG AVERAGE 1222 172 330 67 7 40 3.28 164 125 224 20 9 .270 .434 .342 .776
POS AVERAGE 1193 132 305 64 4 32 2.70 152 104 213 5 4 .256 .397 .322 .719

================================================== ================================================== ==========
Barajas


YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1999 Diamondbacks 23 5 16 3 4 1 0 1 6.25 3 1 1 0 0 .250 .500 .294 .794
2000 Diamondbacks 24 5 13 1 3 0 0 1 7.69 3 0 4 0 0 .231 .462 .231 .692
2001 Diamondbacks 25 51 106 9 17 3 0 3 2.83 9 4 26 0 0 .160 .274 .191 .464
2002 Diamondbacks 26 70 154 12 36 10 0 3 1.95 23 10 25 1 0 .234 .357 .288 .645
2003 Diamondbacks 27 80 220 19 48 15 0 3 1.36 28 14 43 0 0 .218 .327 .265 .592
2004 Rangers 28 108 358 50 89 26 1 15 4.19 58 13 63 0 1 .249 .453 .276 .728
2005 Rangers 29 120 410 53 104 24 0 21 5.12 60 26 70 0 0 .254 .466 .306 .771
2006 Rangers 30 97 344 49 88 20 0 11 3.20 41 17 51 0 0 .256 .410 .298 .708
TOTALS 536 1621 196 389 99 1 58 3.58 225 85 283 1 1 .240 .410 .282 .692
LG AVERAGE 1676 237 453 90 9 54 3.24 226 160 304 27 12 .270 .432 .338 .769
POS AVERAGE 1649 196 430 88 4 47 2.87 214 141 303 8 7 .261 .405 .324 .729


And then there was this ditty this AM

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/112806dnsporanglede.2deade5f.html


Barajas not going to Toronto: The deal between catcher Rod Barajas and the Blue Jays is off. Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi said late Monday the team was negotiating with former Ranger Gregg Zaun. Ricciardi declined to say why the deal with Barajas wasn't finalized.

"We don't have an agreement with anybody at this point," Ricciardi told The Associated Press.

Terry Bross, Barajas' agent, said Monday morning he expected Toronto to sign Barajas for two years at about $6 million pending a physical today.

Asked if he still had interest in Barajas, Ricciardi said he couldn't comment.

Barajas, 31, started 97 games for the Rangers in 2006 and batted .256 with 11 homers and 41 RBIs. The Rangers plan to go with Gerald Laird as the primary catcher in 2007.

Ouch.

osuceltic
11-28-2006, 11:57 AM
I consider the posters here to be intelligent baseball fans and Reds fans, but I question that assessment at times like this. This is an insurance signing. A small-money investment in a solid third catcher with major league experience. This team was an injury away from relying on someone with zero major league experience.

This is nothing. Teams all around the majors make these kinds of signings. If you're bashing Krivsky for this, you either don't understand baseball or you're operating with an established agenda against Krivsky.

Jason LaRue was terrible last season. I think you could make a convincing case that he was the worst position player (salary considered) in the league. He was brutal. He's getting older, he's coming off an injury, his performance was historically bad and he made a ton of money. Krivsky got out of some of that contract and replaced him as the third catcher with a guy who has major league experience and can't perform any worse than LaRue did a year ago.

Some of the posts in this thread are embarassing.

dfs
11-28-2006, 11:57 AM
Redsland wrote....

Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team.

Looking at the team at the end of the year...

They needed a single shortstop. Check. You can argue about the choice of who, but he answered the question.
They need to do something about the elephant in centerfield. NOCHECK
They need to assemble a bullpen. Stanton is part of that but they need more.
They need to address starting pitching depth. NOCHECK

Given that it's not december yet, I don't think that's a terrible start to the offseason.

Small market talk aside, the reds are never going to be able to compete by paying free agents based on what they have already accomplished. Give this team Juan Pierre or Danys Baez and are we closer to being a better team or a more expensive team?

All that aside, three catchers is most certainly Jerry Narron. He did it when he was with the Rangers even though he had I-rod who he should have ridden into the ground. Moeller is going to sit at the end of the bench allowing Narron to use Ross or Valentin as a pinch hitter. Chad gets pension time for keeping his mouth shut, carrying the luggage and working the bullpen. I wouldn't use a roster spot that way, but that's our manager.

I'm sure Krivsky spoke to LaRue and to Narron and found a way to get Jason out of the organization. The reds get a PTBNL and a bit of cash while sacrificing the talent level between LaRue and Moeller. While it doesn't appear on my list of what the team needs to address, I don't have to live in the lockerroom with these guys for 6 months. From Narron's point of view, shedding Jason might have been a priority.

Thinking about centerfield....the reds have Freel, Denorfia, Hopper and Crosby, all of whom can play some center. I don't know HOW they get junior into right field, but it may already be taken care of. I like all of those guys more than Juan Pierre at 9 million for five years. It may be from the organization's perspective that centerfield is off the list as well.

Assuming Junior has been moved to right and looking at the roster now....
They need arms that can provide quality and depth.
They need Craig Wilson, or somebody a lot like that to mash lefties.

They have....2 and a half months to take care of those two problems and the collection of talent that Dan O'brien had is now a baseball team.

deltachi8
11-28-2006, 11:59 AM
And then there was this ditty this AM

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/112806dnsporanglede.2deade5f.html



Ouch.


I was listening to Toronto Rasio this morning and they are puzzled as to why things fell apart with Barajas with the only theory is that he may have agreed to the $$ at first then asked for a bit more. JP balked and went back to Zaun and bumped their original offer to him and he agreed.

Roy Tucker
11-28-2006, 11:59 AM
If Moeller is simply AAA organizational depth for when Ross/Valentin get dinged up, then OK.

If Moeller is to become part of a three-headed catching unit, then I think we're headed in the wrong direction.

And I remain unconvinced that the former is true. Narron and Krivsky share a 3-catcher vision.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 11:59 AM
Interesting post from many angles. You are correct when you say that the GM/CEO has no obligation to tell the fans anything, but I contend when you are depending on the good will and $$$ of the fans, it might be the prudent thing to do, which reminds me of a story...

Normally, I'd agree 100% but the goodwil of the fans after 16 years of bad baseball is at an alltime low. This is evidenced by the poor attendence dispite winning baseball and the need to bribe people to come down for a big serries.

At this point the only thing that is going to build goodwill with the casual fans is winning baseball over a period of time. To that ends, the best use of Krivsky's time is building a team that will do so, not holding pressconfrences and meeting with local kwanis clubs to spell out his plan.

Once the team is winning or at least well on their way to winning then Krivsky should spend more time wooing the casual fans IMO. Right now the only people who are crying out for more information are diehard fans who are the most likely to support the team in one way or another despite the PR efforts of Krivsky.

Cedric
11-28-2006, 12:02 PM
Tell that to the Diamondbacks, Brewers, Marlins, Angels, Royals, Mets, Cubs, White Sox, Padres, Orioles, Yankees, Tigers, and Indians, all of whom have already consummated at least one trade in November.

No, it's not a AAA signing. That's the whole problem. It's a guaranteed major league contract and a 40-man spot for a extraneous part.

Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team.

I didn't see where it was a major league contract.

And I meant the real trades. Josh Barfield isn't what I'm looking at.

The only big trade was Sheffield. I'm just saying that most big moves are going to happen after the next two weeks.

With Lee off the market and the big free agent signings now gone, this is the time to trade. That was my whole point. Look for some serious action at the Winter meetings.

westofyou
11-28-2006, 12:16 PM
I didn't see where it was a major league contract.

And I meant the real trades. I haven't seen one deal involving a major player yet. Josh Barfield isn't what I'm looking at.

The only big trade was Sheffield. I'm just saying that most big moves are going to happen after the next two weeks.

With Lee off the market and the big free agent signings now gone, this is the time to trade. That was my whole point. Look for some serious action at the Winter meetings.

IMO most trading activity occurs after Thanksgiving or in early December, and has been for at least my lifetime. Most trades made as soon as the WS ends tend to be deals that were cooked up during the season originally. Bowden liked to trade in early November, and the deals that sent both Griffey (Senior) and O'Neil to the Yankees were made the first week of November but the FA glut over the past 10 years has pushed most dealing back to the GM meetings time.

Cedric
11-28-2006, 12:20 PM
IMO most trading activity occurs after Thanksgiving or in early December, and has been for at least my lifetime. Most trades made as soon as the WS ends tend to be deals that were cooked up during the season originally. Bowden liked to trade in early November, and the deals that sent both Griffey (Senior) and O'Neil to the Yankees were made the first week of November but the FA glut over the past 10 years has pushed most dealing back to the GM meetings time.

I agree, like I just said above. The winter meetings and the free agents being off the market. This is going to be a great market for the sellers. Hopefully the Reds are willing to bite the bullet and see what we can get for Ross, Dunn, and even Griffey.

That's my hope. I'm not impatient yet. After December 15th I will be.

flyer85
11-28-2006, 12:32 PM
I don't see any real reason to believe it will be a sellers market(the market may have increased the value of certain players). That hasn't been true for last few years in baseball as teams, for the most part, have been holding on to their younger talent.

Cedric
11-28-2006, 12:34 PM
I don't see any real reason to believe it will be a sellers market(the market may have increased the value of certain players). That hasn't been true for last few years in baseball as teams, for the most part, have been holding on to their younger talent.

Incredibly stupid free agent market this year. There was just no talent out there. Teams are desperate and I think it's gonna show. They can't just stand pat.

Hopefully the Reds aren't the desperate team.

flyer85
11-28-2006, 12:36 PM
Incredibly stupid free agent market this year. There was just no talent out there. Teams are desperate and I think it's gonna show. They can't just stand pat.it only turns into a sellers market if multiple teams are willing to give up a lot of young talent for more veteran high priced players. The market has not been that way in recent years. It could turn into a sellers market to this point the evidence is lacking. If it does turn into a sellers market the dealing of Larue will end up looking rather poor.

texasdave
11-28-2006, 12:37 PM
Three questions:

1)Cannot the Bubba Crosbys and the Chad Moellers of the world be picked up near the end of spring training for even less money?

2)If they are signed to a Major League contract will they have to be exposed to waivers to be sent down to Louisville?

3)Does their signings help Krivsky in any way shape or form in addressing the major needs of this club?

IMO it is way too soon for these types of signings.

Redsland
11-28-2006, 12:39 PM
I consider the posters here to be intelligent baseball fans and Reds fans, but I question that assessment at times like this. This is an insurance signing. A small-money investment in a solid third catcher with major league experience. This team was an injury away from relying on someone with zero major league experience.

This is nothing. Teams all around the majors make these kinds of signings. If you're bashing Krivsky for this, you either don't understand baseball or you're operating with an established agenda against Krivsky.

Jason LaRue was terrible last season. I think you could make a convincing case that he was the worst position player (salary considered) in the league. He was brutal. He's getting older, he's coming off an injury, his performance was historically bad and he made a ton of money. Krivsky got out of some of that contract and replaced him as the third catcher with a guy who has major league experience and can't perform any worse than LaRue did a year ago.

Some of the posts in this thread are embarassing.
Because of the bolded portion above, I'd say you've made this personal. On that basis, I don't mind telling you that your post is several kinds of ignorant.

First of all, you say that Moeller is a

solid third catcher
On what basis can you say he's "solid," given the fact that others in this thread have pointed out that he isn't much of a hitter, isn't much of a fielder, and was so valuable to the Brewers of all people that they waived him?

And what, exactly, is a "third catcher"? Most other teams I'm aware of have two catchers, not three. Their "third catchers" are in the minors, where ours should be.

You also say

This is an insurance signing.
...which doesn't explain why he got a major league contract and a 40-man spot instead of a minor league deal. It also doesn't explain why it was so urgent that Wayne take care of this now, rather than focusing on areas of need.

You say

This team was an injury away from relying on someone with zero major league experience.
So what? We've got healthy people whom I do not want to take the field for this team next year. Let's replace them before calling a .180 hitter an "insurance policy."


Teams all around the majors make these kinds of signings.
Yeah. During spring. After fixing their real problems.


Jason LaRue was terrible last season.
Chad Moeller was worse.


He's getting older,
Chad isn't?


Krivsky got out of some of that contract and replaced him as the third catcher with a guy who has major league experience and can't perform any worse than LaRue did a year ago.
Krivsky paid $3 million to get rid of LaRue, and then signed an inferior player. And if you don't think LaRue is going to out-perform Chad Moeller this year, you're crazy.


Some of the posts in this thread are embarassing.
You've got that right.

flyer85
11-28-2006, 12:44 PM
Three questions:

1)Cannot the Bubba Crosbys and the Chad Moellers of the world be picked up near the end of spring training for even less money?

2)If they are signed to a Major League contract will they have to be exposed to waivers to be sent down to Louisville?

3)Does their signings help Krivsky in any way shape or form in addressing the major needs of this club?

IMO it is way too soon for these types of signings.They are better known as flotsam and jetsam. The issue I have is that these guys fit a pattern(no hit/some glove) that the GM seems to have a hankerin' for.

Cedric
11-28-2006, 12:46 PM
it only turns into a sellers market if multiple teams are willing to give up a lot of young talent for more veteran high priced players. The market has not been that way in recent years. It could turn into a sellers market to this point the evidence is lacking. If it does turn into a sellers market the dealing of Larue will end up looking rather poor.

Well we will find out. It's an opinion.

Heath
11-28-2006, 01:27 PM
it only turns into a sellers market if multiple teams are willing to give up a lot of young talent for more veteran high priced players. The market has not been that way in recent years. It could turn into a sellers market to this point the evidence is lacking. If it does turn into a sellers market the dealing of Larue will end up looking rather poor.

flyer, are you saying that there is a market for a $5Mill 2nd string catcher who hit .189 last year?

flyer85
11-28-2006, 01:30 PM
flyer, are you saying that there is a market for a $5Mill 2nd string catcher who hit .189 last year?Larue had a bad season. He is neither a 2nd string catcher or a .189 hitter ... but there must be a market because the Reds just gave a terrible catcher(make no mistake he is far worse than Larue) a major league contract. If there was no market for Moeller then why give him a major league deal?

VR
11-28-2006, 01:36 PM
Larue had a bad season. He is neither a 2nd string catcher or a .189 hitter ... but there must be a market because the Reds just gave a terrible catcher(make no mistake he is far worse than Larue) a major league contract. If there was no market for Moeller then why give him a major league deal?

Is it possible LaRue's deal was a seller's deal in this market? He's been available since July....and the only taker is a team looking for someone to compete with John Buck? Do we really think Kriv had the phones lit up for LaRue, and chose to take a lousy offer?


I think that speaks to his market value...as disappointing as it is to Red's fans.

flyer85
11-28-2006, 01:41 PM
Do we really think Kriv had the phones lit up for LaRue, and chose to take a lousy offer?No I don't. But their certainly was no reason to give him and $3M away and then replace it with a turd.

The supposition made by some earlier was that the insane free agent market will turn the trading market into a sellers market. If that is true then it would have been better to hang on to Larue.

Always Red
11-28-2006, 01:46 PM
Is it possible LaRue's deal was a seller's deal in this market? He's been available since July....and the only taker is a team looking for someone to compete with John Buck? Do we really think Kriv had the phones lit up for LaRue, and chose to take a lousy offer?


I think that speaks to his market value...as disappointing as it is to Red's fans.

I think the rest of baseball saw what we did last year nearly every time LaRue was at the dish- most of the time he was just totally lost; he was guessing, and he was guessing wrong every time (scary for a man who calls pitches for a living:( ). Not sure how he got that way, because in 2005, he was pretty strong at the plate. Right now, it's all in his head. He's a good receiver with a rocket of an arm, so he'll always have a spot, at least as a #2 until he decides to retire, IMO.

I think there's a decent market for LaRue's talents, just not at the salary he is currently making, and the Royals were maybe the only ones in need who were willing to swallow some of the cash. Plus, I do think the Reds wanted to get him out of the league and send him somewhere where he could start over; I hope there is at least a little bit of loyalty in the game, but I'm probably being naiive.

Moeller and Crosby add depth, nothing more. I agree with those who wonder why these guys couldn't be picked up during the spring at a cheaper cost. We're not willing to overpay for starting talent, but we are willing to do so for benchwarmers?

Heath
11-28-2006, 01:47 PM
Larue had a bad season. He is neither a 2nd string catcher or a .189 hitter ... but there must be a market because the Reds just gave a terrible catcher(make no mistake he is far worse than Larue) a major league contract. If there was no market for Moeller then why give him a major league deal?

But he is a second string catcher in Cincinnati and was not going to have a shot at the starting job anytime soon. He had an albatross of a contract and his own stats have slipped over the past few years. Kansas City is showing him as the backup catcher to compete with John Buck. I'm thrilled somebody took him off the Reds hands.

There is a market for LaRue...if he doesn't make $5 Million. No one is going to pay $5Mill for a Jason LaRue. Chad Moeller got probably a major league contract - but it might be for the Vet's Minimum - which is $750K. (I think).

I get the distinct feeling around here that people think there is a market for over priced junk. But those are normally free agents that are signing with other bidders, not through trades.

flyer85
11-28-2006, 01:47 PM
Moeller and Crosby add nothing ... fixed

when you are below replacement level you don't add anything.

flyer85
11-28-2006, 01:51 PM
I get the distinct feeling around here that people think there is a market for over priced junk. But those are normally free agents that are signing with other bidders, not through trades.Larue is overpriced but not junk. The deal WK made says that JL is still junk at $2M. Was that all the market would bear? As outsiders we will never know.

What I do know is that Moeller is true junk and as such is overpriced by definition, especially when you already have two veteran catchers.

Chip R
11-28-2006, 01:55 PM
The big problem with signing Moeller is it's a major league deal. It may be for $500K but if he doesn't make the 25 man roster, he's still owed that whether he is in LOU or sits at home. Now if it was a deal like Bubba got, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Roy Tucker
11-28-2006, 02:04 PM
It's all water over the dam now, but I think the catching situation could have been remedied better than what it was.

- Larue (and the Reds) got blind-sided by Ross' performance last year. Larue went through the off-season and spring training thinking he was the #1 guy. And his modus operandi to open the season was #1 get the pitching staff right, and then #2 work on his hitting.

- Larue got hurt, Ross got signed on a flyer, Ross unexpectedly plays his tush off, Narron stays with the hot hand, Larue got lost in the shuffle, and had a lousy year.

- JMHO, but 2006 wasn't representative of Jason Larue's current talent and playing ability. I would expect Larue to put up 2004 numbers for 2007.

- For the 2007 season, Krivsky has the option of trading one of his catchers. Larue is coming off a lousy season and has zero value. Valentin is one year removed from his career season and probably has little value. Ross is coming off a career season and has some value. Ross ceratinly seemed the logical candidate to get traded to me.

- Larue gets shuffled off to KC. From what I'm reading, the Reds sent along $3M in the deal. Moeller gets signed for probably $750K. So we come out $1M-$1.5M ahead on the deal.

Which in the grand scheme of things seems small potatoes for a significant downgrade in the catching department. Maybe there was no market for Ross, maybe Larue said he'd refuse to play for the 2007 Reds, maybe the Reds didn't believe Larue could come back to his career levels, etc etc. I don't know. It just doesn't seem a very effective use of the Reds' limited trading capital.

Caveat Emperor
11-28-2006, 02:11 PM
Wayne is wasting time talking to the Bubba Crosbys and Chad Moellers of the world instead of fixing what's broken with this team.

He's far from the first would-be author who spends years thinking up the perfect title to his book before he ever sets about the task of writing it.

Puffy
11-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Jason Larue had value - everyone keeps bringing up last year to state why he had negative value. But what about his three previous years? What about the fact that up until last year he had steadily increased his OPS every year? Last year was so bad it had to be an aberration. You don't go from those increases to those depths in one year. GM's know this. Might Larue ever approach 2005 numbers again - probably not. But 2004 numbers are certainly obtainable and those numbers are clearly worth more than the 2 million KC will be paying him.

And if he truly had negative value then Krivsky should have held on to him until spring training, let him get that value back up and then trade him to a team that needed a catcher, cause every spring teams need catchers.

IslandRed
11-28-2006, 03:29 PM
Jason Larue had value - everyone keeps bringing up last year to state why he had negative value. But what about his three previous years? What about the fact that up until last year he had steadily increased his OPS every year? Last year was so bad it had to be an aberration. You don't go from those increases to those depths in one year. GM's know this. Might Larue ever approach 2005 numbers again - probably not. But 2004 numbers are certainly obtainable and those numbers are clearly worth more than the 2 million KC will be paying him.


Last year was an aberration, but it shouldn't be forgotten that catchers start hitting the wall right about his age. Exceptions to the rule can always be found but they're just that, exceptions. A bounceback to previous levels is a possibility, but not a probability, in my opinion.

It's interesting to note that BP's PECOTA system forecasted Larue to be "worth" around $2 million this season... before he tanked last season. Not sure what to make of that.

Puffy
11-28-2006, 03:34 PM
Last year was an aberration, but it shouldn't be forgotten that catchers start hitting the wall right about his age. Exceptions to the rule can always be found but they're just that, exceptions. A bounceback to previous levels is a possibility, but not a probability, in my opinion.

It's interesting to note that BP's PECOTA system forecasted Larue to be "worth" around $2 million this season... before he tanked last season. Not sure what to make of that.

Well, thats why I feel that 2004 (not 2005) numbers are entirely plausible. He is on the downside - but we should also remember that he has never been a full-time, undisputed number 1 catcher (a la Bench, Pudge, Piazza). His most at bats in a season is less than 400 I believe - he has mileage left on the tires.

westofyou
11-28-2006, 03:52 PM
Since the strike 64 33 and older catchers have had at least 300 PA's in a season.

Here's their RC/27 and OB% vs the league, LaRue for his career is -.016 vs the league in OB%, with 2005 being the only year he achieved that.


SEASON
1995-2006
C
AGE >= 33
AGE displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G AGE OBA AB
1 Mike Stanley 1996 7.20 33 .032 397
2 Darrin Fletcher 2000 6.77 33 .006 416
3 Jorge Posada 2006 6.77 34 .034 465
4 Javier Lopez 2004 6.72 33 .031 579
5 Jason Varitek 2005 6.52 33 .035 470
6 Jeff Reed 1998 6.34 35 .037 259
7 Greg Myers 2003 6.21 37 .040 329
8 Terry Steinbach 1996 6.05 34 -.009 514
9 Chris Hoiles 1998 5.99 33 .017 267
10 Mike Piazza 2002 5.96 33 .019 478
11 Mike Piazza 2006 5.81 37 -.001 399
12 Gregg Zaun 2006 5.68 35 .023 290
13 Jorge Posada 2005 5.52 33 .021 474
14 Darren Daulton 1995 5.44 33 .019 342
15 Paul Lo Duca 2006 5.43 34 .012 512
16 Jeff Reed 1996 5.34 33 .026 341
17 Jim Leyritz 1997 5.16 33 .038 379
18 Gregg Zaun 2004 5.15 33 .029 338
19 Mike Piazza 2005 5.13 36 -.013 398
20 Mike Lieberthal 2005 5.04 33 -.002 392
21 Javier Lopez 2005 4.98 34 -.009 395
22 Terry Steinbach 1999 4.98 37 .010 338
23 Jeff Reed 1999 4.97 36 .021 256
24 Ivan Rodriguez 2006 4.90 34 -.009 547
25 Gregg Zaun 2005 4.63 34 .025 434
26 Terry Steinbach 1995 4.61 33 -.022 406
27 Benito Santiago 2003 4.60 38 -.011 401
28 Charlie O'Brien 1996 4.55 36 -.020 324
29 Dan Wilson 2002 4.50 33 -.006 359
30 Lenny Webster 1998 4.48 33 -.023 309
31 Tom Pagnozzi 1996 4.47 33 -.028 407
32 Damian Miller 2005 4.47 35 .001 385
33 Benito Santiago 2002 4.38 37 -.025 478
34 Sandy Alomar Jr. 2000 4.37 34 -.026 356
35 Joe Girardi 2000 4.29 35 -.012 363
36 Jason Varitek 2006 4.24 34 -.015 365
37 Damian Miller 2004 4.23 34 .000 397
38 Paul Lo Duca 2005 4.15 33 -.005 445
39 Todd Hundley 2002 4.09 33 -.038 266
40 Damian Miller 2006 4.04 36 -.021 331
41 Tom Lampkin 2002 3.97 38 -.027 281
42 Terry Steinbach 1998 3.91 36 -.031 422
43 Ivan Rodriguez 2005 3.90 33 -.041 504
44 Terry Steinbach 1997 3.88 35 -.039 447
45 Brent Mayne 2001 3.84 33 -.002 326
46 Mike Matheny 2005 3.79 34 -.044 443
47 Benito Santiago 1999 3.79 34 -.038 350
48 Brad Ausmus 2005 3.77 36 .013 387
49 Eddie Perez 2003 3.76 35 -.037 350
50 John Flaherty 2002 3.65 34 -.036 281
51 Brook Fordyce 2003 3.65 33 -.023 348
52 Brent Mayne 2003 3.42 35 -.027 372
53 Damian Miller 2003 3.41 33 -.030 352
54 Benito Santiago 2001 3.27 36 -.044 477
55 Brad Ausmus 2002 3.14 33 -.018 447
56 Brad Ausmus 2004 3.13 35 -.035 403
57 Mike Matheny 2004 3.12 33 -.049 385
58 Brent Mayne 2002 3.11 34 -.023 326
59 Dan Wilson 2004 3.10 35 -.034 319
60 Brad Ausmus 2003 3.02 34 -.038 450
61 Chad Kreuter 1999 2.99 34 -.039 324
62 Dan Wilson 2003 2.98 34 -.061 316
63 Darrin Fletcher 2001 2.79 34 -.060 416
64 Brad Ausmus 2006 2.69 37 -.035 439

edabbs44
11-28-2006, 04:04 PM
Jason Larue had value - everyone keeps bringing up last year to state why he had negative value. But what about his three previous years? What about the fact that up until last year he had steadily increased his OPS every year? Last year was so bad it had to be an aberration. You don't go from those increases to those depths in one year. GM's know this.

Yeah, ask Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Bagwell, Giles, etc etc etc.

I'm not accusing LaRue of juicing, but a complete collapse at around the time testing begins cannot be ruled out.

Big Klu
11-28-2006, 04:09 PM
Never in my lifetime has this club carried three catchers until this year.

I thought you were older than 11! :p:

1995:
Eddie Taubensee
Benito Santiago
Damon Berryhill

westofyou
11-28-2006, 04:12 PM
I thought you were older than 11! :p:

1995:
Eddie Taubensee
Benito Santiago
Damon Berryhill



CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1965
C

GAMES G
1 Johnny Edwards 110
2 Don Pavletich 54
3 Jimmie Coker 19



CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1966
C

GAMES G
1 Johnny Edwards 98
2 Don Pavletich 55
3 Jimmie Coker 39

CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1984
C

GAMES G
1 Brad Gulden 100
2 Dann Bilardello 68
3 Dave VanGorder 36
4 Alex Trevino 4
5 Alan Knicely 1

Big Klu
11-28-2006, 04:14 PM
Ugh, Brad Gulden. One of my all-time least favorite Reds.

osuceltic
11-28-2006, 04:17 PM
Yeah, ask Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Bagwell, Giles, etc etc etc.

I'm not accusing LaRue of juicing, but a complete collapse at around the time testing begins cannot be ruled out.

Finally someone says it.

Look ... Jason LaRue was an OK player when he was cheap. He had one above-average skill, and that was throwing runners out. He made his reputation early in that regard, then slid toward average. He was an incredibly streaky hitter who would go weeks without helping the team then have a really hot week that would pad some stats. He was terrible defensively other than throwing and fielding the play in front of the plate. OK player for short money.

The minute he signed that contract, he became overpaid. When his production dropped, he became a huge liability. Krivsky might not have expected Dave Ross to have the year he had, but I'll guarantee he expected Ross to compete with LaRue -- and do so at a much smaller salary. Krivsky saw what a lot of us saw with LaRue -- he wasn't that good, he was getting older, and he was making much more than he was worth. So he found an alternative.

And it didn't cost $3 million to be rid of LaRue. They saved $2 million by being rid of him. No one would take him without the Reds sending some money. They took Dan O'Brien's huge mistake and cut their losses. The worst thing that could have happened is to bring him back making $5 mill a year. He's not good enough to win back the job and he's a miserable guy to have around if he isn't starting. He had to go. So they save a little and get him out of town. Good move.

Moeller is a veteran insurance policy. That's it. Acting like this somehow consumed all of Krivsky's time and that he hasn't been having other discussions is just stupid. I hope no one is dumb enough to really believe that. Krivsky has a lot of things he wants to accomplish this offseason. He just took care of one of them -- veteran catching insurance. I don't think he put anyone's agent on hold so he could wrap up the Chad Moeller deal. Please.

RANDY IN INDY
11-28-2006, 05:11 PM
Finally someone says it.

Look ... Jason LaRue was an OK player when he was cheap. He had one above-average skill, and that was throwing runners out. He made his reputation early in that regard, then slid toward average. He was an incredibly streaky hitter who would go weeks without helping the team then have a really hot week that would pad some stats. He was terrible defensively other than throwing and fielding the play in front of the plate. OK player for short money.

The minute he signed that contract, he became overpaid. When his production dropped, he became a huge liability. Krivsky might not have expected Dave Ross to have the year he had, but I'll guarantee he expected Ross to compete with LaRue -- and do so at a much smaller salary. Krivsky saw what a lot of us saw with LaRue -- he wasn't that good, he was getting older, and he was making much more than he was worth. So he found an alternative.

And it didn't cost $3 million to be rid of LaRue. They saved $2 million by being rid of him. No one would take him without the Reds sending some money. They took Dan O'Brien's huge mistake and cut their losses. The worst thing that could have happened is to bring him back making $5 mill a year. He's not good enough to win back the job and he's a miserable guy to have around if he isn't starting. He had to go. So they save a little and get him out of town. Good move.

Moeller is a veteran insurance policy. That's it. Acting like this somehow consumed all of Krivsky's time and that he hasn't been having other discussions is just stupid. I hope no one is dumb enough to really believe that. Krivsky has a lot of things he wants to accomplish this offseason. He just took care of one of them -- veteran catching insurance. I don't think he put anyone's agent on hold so he could wrap up the Chad Moeller deal. Please.

:beerme:

Rojo
11-28-2006, 05:15 PM
you've got to consider the possibility that he bites.

He sure does.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 05:26 PM
Yeah, Larue's juicing. :rolleyes:

Holy crap I've read some dumbass things on this site, but that just about takes it, right there.

Rojo
11-28-2006, 05:32 PM
Lot's of name-calling. Who knew Chad Moeller was such a lightening rod?

Cedric
11-28-2006, 05:42 PM
Lot's of name-calling. Who knew Chad Moeller was such a lightening rod?

I think we once hit ten pages for a Luke Prokopec signing.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 05:45 PM
Lot's of name-calling.

Softer words would have fallen short of the truth.

vaticanplum
11-28-2006, 06:57 PM
I'm a few pages late on this, but I have something to say/ask about the perceived disparity between what Cast & Co. say and what they do. Seriously guys, statements such as "we want to win today" and "we will spend money to win" and basically any other blanket postitive statement regarding this team and released via a friendly press release is not aimed at you or at me. It is a statement intended to come across as a positive soundbyte to a very large and varied group of fans and non-fans, and the great majority of us are firmly ensconsed at one end of that group. Press conferences and soundbytes are not for us and the FO knows that. We will follow and critique every single move and they know that too. Press releases just have to cover a large group of people, most of whom a) don't want to hear bad things about the ballclub, b) will not want to see the ballclub if they hear bad things about it, and c) would not give a hoot and a half if a press release started talking about the details of contracts and a three-catcher tandem. Seriously, what are they supposed to say? Most people in Cincinnati are probably vaguely aware that the Reds came into new ownership in the last year, and they know that the Reds were bad for five years prior to that. Ergo, they want to hear that because of new ownership, the team will not be good. That's all those statements are for. I'm not saying that they're not somewhat genuine, and I'm not saying that Castellini should lie if he really doesn't want the team to win, but i don't know that there's an owner in baseball that ever didn't want his team to win, regardless of how well actions backed that up. What I'm saying is that those statements, for people like us who follow enough else to know what is going on with the team, shouldn't really be heavily weighed or analyzed one way or another. This also goes for the great majority of statements of "playing the game the right way", "playoff experience", and any of the other catchphrases that we love so much. There may be some truth in them, but they're mostly media phrases. They're not for us, and if you ever meet Wayne Krivsky and confront him about it he will probably congratulate you on the fact that you know that.

All that said, factual sentences such as "more money will be spent" do mean something to all fans, no matter how casual and serious, and should be backed up by action. The problem is that Castellini truly hasn't had the chance to do that yet. We don't know what the Reds are negotiating for. We don't know if they've been rebuffed. We don't know what "more money" meant to them in the first place. Instead of judging Cast or Krivsky one way or the other after less than a year of holding this team ("They are lying! They will not do anything!" "They will do everything! Give them a chance!" -- too extreme either way, in my opinion), why don't we look at actual facts backed by a decent sample size? Krivsky has assistant managed a team before. Castellini has owned a team before. And it's just occurred to me in this thread, for the first time ever, what precious little I know about their track records there. What kinds of decisions they were known for. How they were regarded by the insider local press where they were before. While we're all sitting back making assumptions about what they're going to do, I honestly can't recall much talk about what they're already done -- what we actually do know. So I am asking these questions of you people. I'd do this research myself but won't have the time for a couple more weeks, at which time I'll happily get to work if no one else has yet. But I thought I'd throw it out there in case anybody already has good information. I'm genuinely curious at this point.

Caveat Emperor
11-28-2006, 07:16 PM
I think we once hit ten pages for a Luke Prokopec signing.

Yeah, but I think about 8 of those were debating whether or not his breaking ball spun counter-clockwise when he pitched in Australlia.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 07:18 PM
I'm a few pages late on this, but I have something to say/ask about the perceived disparity between what Cast & Co. say and what they do. Seriously guys, statements such as "we want to win today" and "we will spend money to win" and basically any other blanket postitive statement regarding this team and released via a friendly press release is not aimed at you or at me. It is a statement intended to come across as a positive soundbyte to a very large and varied group of fans and non-fans, and the great majority of us are firmly ensconsed at one end of that group. Press conferences and soundbytes are not for us and the FO knows that. We will follow and critique every single move and they know that too. Press releases just have to cover a large group of people, most of whom a) don't want to hear bad things about the ballclub, b) will not want to see the ballclub if they hear bad things about it, and c) would not give a hoot and a half if a press release started talking about the details of contracts and a three-catcher tandem. Seriously, what are they supposed to say? Most people in Cincinnati are probably vaguely aware that the Reds came into new ownership in the last year, and they know that the Reds were bad for five years prior to that. Ergo, they want to hear that because of new ownership, the team will not be good. That's all those statements are for. I'm not saying that they're not somewhat genuine, and I'm not saying that Castellini should lie if he really doesn't want the team to win, but i don't know that there's an owner in baseball that ever didn't want his team to win, regardless of how well actions backed that up. What I'm saying is that those statements, for people like us who follow enough else to know what is going on with the team, shouldn't really be heavily weighed or analyzed one way or another. This also goes for the great majority of statements of "playing the game the right way", "playoff experience", and any of the other catchphrases that we love so much. There may be some truth in them, but they're mostly media phrases. They're not for us, and if you ever meet Wayne Krivsky and confront him about it he will probably congratulate you on the fact that you know that.

All that said, factual sentences such as "more money will be spent" do mean something to all fans, no matter how casual and serious, and should be backed up by action. The problem is that Castellini truly hasn't had the chance to do that yet. We don't know what the Reds are negotiating for. We don't know if they've been rebuffed. We don't know what "more money" meant to them in the first place. Instead of judging Cast or Krivsky one way or the other after less than a year of holding this team ("They are lying! They will not do anything!" "They will do everything! Give them a chance!" -- too extreme either way, in my opinion), why don't we look at actual facts backed by a decent sample size? Krivsky has assistant managed a team before. Castellini has owned a team before. And it's just occurred to me in this thread, for the first time ever, what precious little I know about their track records there. What kinds of decisions they were known for. How they were regarded by the insider local press where they were before. While we're all sitting back making assumptions about what they're going to do, I honestly can't recall much talk about what they're already done -- what we actually do know. So I am asking these questions of you people. I'd do this research myself but won't have the time for a couple more weeks, at which time I'll happily get to work if no one else has yet. But I thought I'd throw it out there in case anybody already has good information. I'm genuinely curious at this point.


You're right: their words are meaningless, tired, voluminous puffery.

vaticanplum
11-28-2006, 07:30 PM
You're right: their words are meaningless, tired, voluminous puffery.

I just mean that the words released to the press are not the crux of their jobs. And in my opinion, they haven't had enough time to prove that they back up their words or betray them through their actions. So I am curious to know what their long-term patterns of actions have actually been. I really have no idea. (And "the Twins way" remains speculation to me until I really see proof of it all around.)

Rojo
11-28-2006, 07:52 PM
I maybe alone here, but looking at the contracts doled out thus far, I'm happy the Reds have held back.

paulrichjr
11-28-2006, 08:16 PM
I maybe alone here, but looking at the contracts doled out thus far, I'm happy the Reds have held back.

Me too... Honestly I don't even care for the guys that have signed so far. I am no WayneK fan but so far I can't complain about him not signing some of these guys. I want to win but I know that if we sign another Milton we will delay winning by another 2 or 3 years..

Chip R
11-28-2006, 08:30 PM
I'm afraid that when Wayne says things like, "We're not done yet" that the moves being made are going to be like this. He'll sign a 3rd catcher or another relief pitcher of questionable talent or another infielder or another bench warmer. I don't expect the Reds to go out and compete with the likes of the Dodgers for Juan Pierre but it would be nice to see them get into the bidding for a Schmidt or a Wolf.

Rojo
11-28-2006, 08:44 PM
I don't expect the Reds to go out and compete with the likes of the Dodgers for Juan Pierre but it would be nice to see them get into the bidding for a Schmidt or a Wolf.

Why buy Google at $500? Look for a growth stock, the P/E ratio of most of these guys is horrible.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 08:49 PM
Why buy Google at $500? Look for a growth stock, the P/E ratio of most of these guys is horrible.

I don't mind not spending money; not a huge fan of paralysis.

Rojo
11-28-2006, 08:51 PM
I don't mind not spending money; not a huge fan of paralysis.

Yeah, there's still work to be done, but I prefer nothing to the something the other guys are dishing out.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 08:54 PM
Yeah, there's still work to be done, but I prefer nothing to the something the other guys are dishing out.

I also don't believe, for one second, that all these deals are going to simultaneously blow up in the faces of these teams.

westofyou
11-28-2006, 08:57 PM
I don't mind not spending money; not a huge fan of paralysis.

The winter meetings haven't even started... talk about a channel changing POV of baseball.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:00 PM
The winter meetings haven't even started... talk about a channel changing POV of baseball.

I don't think it's a bit premature to suggest that a guy who's had an entire season and a 1/3 of an offseason to improve the club, and failed pretty much utterly in that span, might not be up to the task.

But then, when this team is puttering along on a 10 game losing streak in June, I'm sure I'll be told to stuff it.

What else is new?

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 09:06 PM
I don't think it's a bit premature to suggest that a guy who's had an entire season and a 1/3 of an offseason to improve the club, and failed pretty much utterly in that span, might not be up to the task.

But then, when this team is puttering along on a 10 game losing streak in June, I'm sure I'll be told to stuff it.

What else is new?

Upgraded defense at SS, saved $2m on a bloated contract, have brought in some peices to look at mixing-and-matching to fit the needs of the team. And that's in the first 1/4 of the offseason. Let's not forget picking up Philips and Arroyo. Ross and Hatteburg were nice role player pick ups. Yea...complete failure at improving the team :rolleyes: Yet, if he had gone out and signed ANY one of these deals we see now there'd be a chorus of complaints about him mortgaging the future, panicking, just wanting to fit in, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the Moeller signing. Stanton is a meh. Bubba who? But it seams to me simular things were said about David Ross, Brandon Philips and Scott Hatteburg. Value can be found in the small deals just as much as the big shiney ones.

Rojo
11-28-2006, 09:07 PM
I get impatient too. Like when Wayne was twittlin' his thumbs last summer as the bullpen imploded. I'm just not sure what I'd do differently at this point. I HATE the big contracts handed out so far. One or two will work out, but which ones? You can't pretend that this team can hand 'em out helter-skelter.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:13 PM
I get impatient too. Like when Wayne was twittlin' his thumbs last summer as the bullpen imploded. I'm just not sure what I'd do differently at this point. I HATE the big contracts handed out so far. One or two will work out, but which ones? You can't pretend that this team can hand 'em out helter-skelter.

I actually have a theory about this heel-dragging of late: pure conjecture, I'll concede. My theory about Wayne's Operation Shutdown is that the budget for next year was approved and is MUCH smaller than was first anticipated, and now the deals are going to be more mortar than brick. Which will prompt Wayne to make pithy little statements about how you need mortar too, ultimately, to build a stable house, or some such nonsense....

westofyou
11-28-2006, 09:19 PM
I don't think it's a bit premature to suggest that a guy who's had an entire season and a 1/3 of an offseason to improve the club, and failed pretty much utterly in that span, might not be up to the task.

But then, when this team is puttering along on a 10 game losing streak in June, I'm sure I'll be told to stuff it.

What else is new?
What tool are you using to measure?

10 months on the job and you've been calling for his head for 6 of them at least, I just don't get the logic that dwells in the assumption that it's all fixable in such a short time span. You do, we get it.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 09:20 PM
My theory about Wayne's Operation Shutdown is that the budget for next year was approved and is MUCH smaller than was first anticipated....

That could certinally play a role. If BCast and Wayne decided that their original budget at amount X wasn't going to cut the mustard once these wild contracts started flying they may have gone back to the drawing board. This is total asumption on my part, but I would think BCast would have to get approvals from the limiteds for further (significant) increases in payroll. That doesn't happen overnight.

Rojo
11-28-2006, 09:21 PM
My theory about Wayne's Operation Shutdown is that the budget for next year was approved and is MUCH smaller than was first anticipated, and now the deals are going to be more mortar than brick.

That could be. I don't know. I just know that I can't blame them from staying away from these deals.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:22 PM
What tool are you using to measure?

10 months on the job and you've been calling for his head for 6 of them at least, I just don't get the logic that dwells in the assumption that it's all fixable in such a short time span. You do, we get it.

You use terms like "fixable." I'll use an equally nebulous one like "progress." Name a benchmark that Wayne's passed on the road to "fixed." Surely you think ten months is enough to have passed a benchmark.

GAC
11-28-2006, 09:24 PM
I don't think it's a bit premature to suggest that a guy who's had an entire season and a 1/3 of an offseason to improve the club, and failed pretty much utterly in that span, might not be up to the task.

But then, when this team is puttering along on a 10 game losing streak in June, I'm sure I'll be told to stuff it.

What else is new?

You have lamented the signing of Krivsky since the day it occurred, and due to that fact, would rather shoot yourself in the foot than give him any credit for any solid moves he has made.

You were calling for his head 4 months into his job.

You've likened the signings of Arroyo, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, and others to "a blind squirrel finding a nut", while you've also stated you can't wait for the day when they show him the door.

No one denies the fact that he has made some questionable moves, and that some may backfire on him. But looking at the condition of this organization when he inherited it, less than one year ago, and say that he has utterly failed to make any improvements, shows you refuse to show any objectivity at all due to your extreme biases. ;)

And as woy and others have already pointed out, and I'm sure you too are aware of but refuse to acknowledge it because it would mean having to cut Krivsky some slack.... most trades/deals are not made, and the "doors" start opening till after the winter meetings start.

redsmetz
11-28-2006, 09:24 PM
You use terms like "fixable." I'll use an equally nebulous one like "progress." Name a benchmark that Wayne's passed on the road to "fixed." Surely you think ten months is enough to have passed a benchmark.

Progress? Arroyo. Phillips. Ross. The continuing development of EE (contrary to what many think on this board).

I'll even go out on the proverbial limb and suggest the Nats trade may ultimately prove to be progress. That'll heat it up here!

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:25 PM
I just know that I can't blame them from staying away from these deals.

Of the FA deals signed so far (including Gonzalez), I can't argue. But then I'm not sure it's the big-money free agent deals that are what's getting most on the board here nervous about Wayne.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 09:26 PM
You use terms like "fixable." I'll use an equally nebulous one like "progress." Name a benchmark that Wayne's passed on the road to "fixed." Surely you think ten months is enough to have passed a benchmark.

Add at least one starting pitcher to go with Harrang. Check.
Shore up defense at SS. Check.
Rid Reds of one of the three anchor contracts. Check.
Bring in a quality 2B. Check.
Pick up some nice role players. Check.
Wrap up Dunn in a reasonable LTC. Check.

It seems Wayne has passed several benchmarks, let alone a benchmark.

PS: I don't think Wayne walks on water, and yes he's made blunders. But you wanted signs of improvement. If you don't think these are improvements to the team then I don't know if you'll ever be satisfied with what the man can do.

westofyou
11-28-2006, 09:27 PM
Name a benchmark that Wayne's passed on the road to "fixed." Surely you think ten months is enough to have passed a benchmark.

Middle infield starting defense is fixed.
Young LH in BP in a park that will need that
Signed Dunn ten minutes after he started
Solid second starter in Arroyo and finally ended the WMP wait-a-thon
Shorter quotes at press conferences

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:32 PM
You have lamented the signing of Krivsky since the day it occurred, and due to that fact, would rather shoot yourself in the foot than give him any credit for any solid moves he has made.

I was dubious, but I wasn't lamenting it. In fact, he won my confidence with the Dunn signing and the Arroyo deal.



You've likened the signings of Arroyo, Phillips, Ross, Hatteberg, and others to "a blind squirrel finding a nut", while you've also stated you can't wait for the day when they show him the door.

I praised the Arroyo and Ross deals as good and smart signings. Check the archives. Phillips and Hatteberg--well, I and the entire known universe didn't see those coming.


No one denies the fact that he has made some questionable moves, and that some may backfire on him.

Well THAT'S not entirely true; plenty deny it. The love of novelty and the human addiction to unquestioning faith will always assure true believers.


And as woy and others have already pointed out, and I'm sure you too are aware of but refuse to acknowledge it because it would mean having to cut Krivsky some slack.... most trades/deals are not made, and the "doors" start opening till after the winter meetings start.

I actually believe a few big deals are coming down the pike. But they'll be of the trade variety I'm sure. And we saw how that last turned out.

Stay the course, baby.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:40 PM
Add at least one starting pitcher to go with Harrang. Check.
Shore up defense at SS. Check.
Rid Reds of one of the three anchor contracts. Check.
Bring in a quality 2B. Check.
Pick up some nice role players. Check.
Wrap up Dunn in a reasonable LTC. Check.

It seems Wayne has passed several benchmarks, let alone a benchmark.

PS: I don't think Wayne walks on water, and yes he's made blunders. But you wanted signs of improvement. If you don't think these are improvements to the team then I don't know if you'll ever be satisfied with what the man can do.

Larue wasn't an anchor; more like cotton candy that you're too full to eat.

O'Brien picked up some nice role players.

The Reds got a nice 2nd baseman (Phillips) and booted a nice leftfielder (Lopez)--slight edge to Wayne on that, though I have my doubts about Phillips' ability to sustain his offense.

I imagine Gonzo will be a wash, as his offense will countervail his D.

They only benchmark that is clear and definable plus is Arroyo.

But then there's that little matter of the trade...

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 09:47 PM
Larue wasn't an anchor; more like cotton candy that you're too full to eat. A $5m, 30+ year old catcher who is comming off an injury and is way overpaid is an anchor.

O'Brien picked up some nice role players. We weren't talking about O'Brien. We were talking about Krivsky. The fact is Krivsky added some nice role players that improved the team. Improvements you claimed he didn't make.

The Reds got a nice 2nd baseman (Phillips) and booted a nice leftfielder (Lopez)--slight edge to Wayne on that, though I have my doubts about Phillips' ability to sustain his offense. Ah yes, the trade. The millstone that will forever be offered as evidence of Krivsky's failure. But again, we were talking about improvements. Those things you claimed he hadn't made a single one of. I'd say adding Phillips is an improvement since it frees Freel and means we don't have Rich Aurlia/Castro as our starting 2B.

I imagine Gonzo will be a wash, as his offense will countervail his D. But the issue was improving the defence. People wanted Wayne to put his money where his mouth is and he did so. Let's not forget the GABP factor and how it helps those with pop in their bats. IF (and it's a BIG if) Deno in CF we'll have arguably the best up the middle defense in baseball. That's not an improvement?

They only benchmark that is clear and definable plus is Arroyo.

But then there's that little matter of the trade...

Nice backpeddle. You can run back to the shelter of Wayne-Bashing known as the trade, but you stated that Wayne hadn't made any improvements at all in his time here. Your statement was about improvements, not failures.

I guess this means you don't think the Dunn LTC was an improvement since you ignored it?

See other comments above...

Rojo
11-28-2006, 09:52 PM
Of the FA deals signed so far (including Gonzalez), I can't argue. But then I'm not sure it's the big-money free agent deals that are what's getting most on the board here nervous about Wayne.

I don't like several of the offseason deals: extending Cormier and Hatte, signing Stanton and Moeller.

Now, those are chump change, so I'm guessing that you fear that all this fussing about the edges means no fillin' for the pie.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 09:52 PM
Nice backpeddle. You can run back to the shelter of Wayne-Bashing known as the trade, but you stated that Wayne hadn't made any improvements at all in his time here. Your statement was about improvements, not failures.

See other comments above...

Wait a cotton-pickin' minute. Credits HAVE to measured against debits--double entry bookkeeping demands it.

You don't just get to trumpet Wayne's credits unless they're measured against his failures.

And you definitely don't get to assume that Deno or a real centerfielder is going to help anchor the D. Plus the catcher's D takes a reasonable hit now that Larue is gone.

Ltlabner
11-28-2006, 09:56 PM
Wait a cotton-pickin' minute. Credits HAVE to measured against debits--double entry bookkeeping demands it.

But you said he hadn't made ANY improvements (hadn't passed any benchmarks to improvement is I think how you put it). That's much different discussion from "overall has he improved the team (failures vs accomplishments)?"

On that score things get murkey really quick. He's done some really nice moves. He's done some bad ones. And he's done a lot of "what the heck was he thinking with this guy" moves (Moeller, McCrackin, Cormier etc).

I think Wayne's trying too hard to walk the tightrope of "win now" vs. "build a competitive team" so it's sending a lot of mixed messages and results in some screwy moves.

GAC
11-28-2006, 10:01 PM
I maybe alone here, but looking at the contracts doled out thus far, I'm happy the Reds have held back.

So am I, and I think a majority of the fans.

This "fan hysteria" is like this every year just prior to the winter meetings.

It's just not the Reds. Why haven't we seen any other teams signing these so-called "big name" FA pitchers that are available? Why haven't we seen any of them jumping right in there and throwing money at these guys?

Why hasn't Zito even been signed?

If some on here are going to basically say that Krivsky is inept, incompetent, and unqualified for the GM job... and that is a safe assumption I think....

then we also have to take it a step further and say that Castellini either saw this and ignored it that fact.... since he is the one who interviewed him for the job.....

and is therefore an idiot and unqualified to be an owner.

Some have taken Castellini statements "we want to win today" and "we will spend money to win", and basically stated and/or believed that the guy is "jerking our chain" and doesn't really mean to follow through on it at all.

And that is pretty much based on the fact that he has, as of yet, not jumped into this ridiculous market and signed that big name FA.

But looking at this market, what our most dire need(s) are (i.e pitching), is that being fair and objective?

If he has money to spend, I don't want him giving out a long term contract and a ridiculous dollar amount to another Milton.

Spend, but spend prudently and wisely!

So to get back to what Rojo states....

I hope he does "sit on his hands" when it comes to the above choice.

Ron Madden
11-28-2006, 10:11 PM
I'm glad Wayne hasn't gone hog-wild in the FA market.

Wish he'd shown the same restraint in this Moeller deal.

GAC
11-28-2006, 10:18 PM
I was dubious, but I wasn't lamenting it. In fact, he won my confidence with the Dunn signing and the Arroyo deal.

So you're denying that just a few months ago you stated that you couldn't wait until Krivsky is shown the door?

I remember when you said it, and would be more then happy to go back and find it. ;)

And you just stated....


I don't think it's a bit premature to suggest that a guy who's had an entire season and a 1/3 of an offseason to improve the club, and failed pretty much utterly in that span, might not be up to the task.

The guy has been on the job less than 1 year, and you know as well as anyone that most GMs cannot do/accomplish much once the season gets going. At least nothing too major.

A majority of any improvements are normally made during the off-season, and during those winter meetings....

and this is his first, and they have really yet to convene.

You also seem to refuse to acknowledge the character of the current market and how it is putting a crimp in most teams (GMs) trying to meet their most dire need.... pitching.

Your pugnacious and pugilistic ponderings, which seem to flow whichever way the wind blows you, simply makes me laugh. :lol:

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 10:22 PM
So you're denying that just a few months ago you stated that you couldn't wait until Krivsky is shown the door?

I remember when you said it, and would be more then happy to go back and find it. ;)

And you just stated....



The guy has been on the job less than 1 year, and you know as well as anyone that most GMs cannot do/accomplish much once the season gets going. At least nothing too major.

A majority of any improvements are normally made during the off-season, and during those winter meetings....

and this is his first, and they have really yet to convene.

You also seem to refuse to acknowledge the character of the current market and how it is putting a crimp in most teams (GMs) trying to meet their most dire need.... pitching.

Your pugnacious and pugilistic ponderings, which seem to flow whichever way the wind blows you, simply makes me laugh. :lol:

With your mischaracterizations of what I actually say, you can hardly blame me for wanting to move via the wind to safer harbor. :)

Caveat Emperor
11-28-2006, 11:30 PM
O'Brien picked up some nice role players.

Please don't tell me we're getting ready to rhapsodize about the days of Jason Romano, John Vander Wal, and Dave Williams now...

As regards WK -- its entirely too premature to claim that he's not going to make any "brick" moves when the winter meetings haven't even arrived. There'll be opportunities to make some real club-changing moves at that meeting and there could be big names moving across the MLB landscape as teams that don't feel like paying bloated deals to marginal talent try to improve themselves.

There is also an entire wave of FA talent that hasn't signed yet -- guys like Tomo Ohka, who I'd be absolutely thrilled if the Reds signed. So far the only people off the market are guys who I really wouldn't want the Reds targeting at the prices they commanded.

All of the pitchfork and torch stuff is way, way too early. Too much is still left to play.

Falls City Beer
11-28-2006, 11:36 PM
Please don't tell me we're getting ready to rhapsodize about the days of Jason Romano, John Vander Wal, and Dave Williams now...

As regards WK -- its entirely too premature to claim that he's not going to make any "brick" moves when the winter meetings haven't even arrived. There'll be opportunities to make some real club-changing moves at that meeting and there could be big names moving across the MLB landscape as teams that don't feel like paying bloated deals to marginal talent try to improve themselves.

There is also an entire wave of FA talent that hasn't signed yet -- guys like Tomo Ohka, who I'd be absolutely thrilled if the Reds signed. So far the only people off the market are guys who I really wouldn't want the Reds targeting at the prices they commanded.

All of the pitchfork and torch stuff is way, way too early. Too much is still left to play.

No, but DanO got Aurilia.

Not rhapsodizing, just pointing the fact that dinky role players are a dime a dozen.

I still say we're still all scratching our heads in late March wondering what the hell happened. Rinse. Repeat.

WVRedsFan
11-29-2006, 12:26 AM
There is also an entire wave of FA talent that hasn't signed yet -- guys like Tomo Ohka, who I'd be absolutely thrilled if the Reds signed. So far the only people off the market are guys who I really wouldn't want the Reds targeting at the prices they commanded.

All of the pitchfork and torch stuff is way, way too early. Too much is still left to play.

Of course, you're totally correct. It's just that I have seen nothing since May that makes me believe he knows what he is doing. The first few moves were brilliant...Arroyo, Hatteberg, Phillips, Ross, etc. Then, and no matter how nauseating it is to the true believers it is true, came the long string of losers from Mays to Franklin, Clayton to Majewski and it continues to be... Crosby and Gonzalez, Moeller and Stanton.

Believe me, I want him to succeed and though I have no faith he will, I will be thrilled if he does. But please...no more ex Twins. I'm sick of seeing that as part of a new signee's resume.

BTW, I received my first negative rep during this thread. I thought discussing moves was OK even if you didn't agree with management and/or administration. So I'll end this post with...

I love you Wayne...keep it up

edabbs44
11-29-2006, 01:36 AM
Yeah, Larue's juicing. :rolleyes:

Holy crap I've read some dumbass things on this site, but that just about takes it, right there.

???

Would you have believed that Jason Grimsley and Alex Sanchez were juicers as well?

Why couldn't LaRue have used? Is he too good of a guy?

Jpup
11-29-2006, 03:57 AM
this thread....oh, this thread.:laugh:

we need the winter meeting to begin quickly.

Heath
11-29-2006, 11:05 AM
No, but DanO got Aurilia.

Ironically enough, on that day, was the largest amount of users on this site until the trading deadline came this past July.

Here's the Aurilia thread from when he signed....enjoy.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31321&highlight=Aurilia+signed

savafan
11-29-2006, 01:47 PM
I'm not sure I understand those who are saying they are glad that the Reds haven't joined in on any of these crazy contracts this offseason. These crazy contracts appear to be the new norm in baseball, so if the Reds are unwilling or unable to pay these prices, they're going to be left in the dust. Also, all of the teams are getting more money from the TV contracts, and the Reds just raised ticket prices. Think about that, the money to compete should be there, even if we don't like the way it's spent, or how much is spent...I just don't get those saying that we shouldn't pay the going rate for talent...

flyer85
11-29-2006, 01:51 PM
the current free agent market is too many dollars chasing too little talent. At some point it will turn(may not be this year) but if you can put cash aside until it does you can reap a potential reward provided you are smart enough to see it. Keep your eye on Beane.

A team like the Cubs would have been better off locking up Zambrano with their extra cash before instead of inflating the market for little return.

savafan
11-29-2006, 01:55 PM
the current free agent market is too many dollars chasing too little talent. At some point it will turn(may not be this year) but if you can put cash aside until it does you can reap a potential reward provided you are smart enough to see it. Keep your eye on Beane.

The same Beane that is in negotiations with Barry Bonds?

flyer85
11-29-2006, 01:56 PM
The same Beane that is in negotiations with Barry Bonds?signing a guy like Bonds(who like it or not is still and excellent hitter and an OBP machine) to play DH for one year is likely to be one of the best moves of the off-season. Bonds, BTW, was a better than either Lee or Soriano in 2006. Most teams would kill for 1.000 OPS.

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 02:01 PM
the current free agent market is too many dollars chasing too little talent.


It sure looks that way to date.

That leaves the Reds with improving the team through trades and the minor league system this season, the players that WK picks up will be very important. Then again if he trades some of his regulars that might create other short falls.

paulrichjr
11-30-2006, 12:49 AM
It sure looks that way to date.

That leaves the Reds with improving the team through trades and the minor league system this season, the players that WK picks up will be very important. Then again if he trades some of his regulars that might create other short falls.

I just wonder if WayneK has done this any since the trade??? :bang:

Going into this offseason with so many needs including offense has really hamstrung this team. I will go out on a limb and state that WayneK will do something this offseason that is considered major or next year he won't have to worry about the baseball free agent market place because he will be a free agent of a different kind. (My bet is a major trade will be made because he knows BobCast expects improvement - Thank goodness)

Heath
11-30-2006, 08:34 AM
The same Beane that is in negotiations with Barry Bonds?

Bill Beane is in a stadium that has tarps over the entire upper-deck in one of the most economically-challenged areas in the country. He still can't sell out the 30,000 seats.

Barry Bonds might be the guy who yanks the tarp off.

redsmetz
11-30-2006, 10:01 AM
I just wonder if WayneK has done this any since the trade??? :bang:

Going into this offseason with so many needs including offense has really hamstrung this team. I will go out on a limb and state that WayneK will do something this offseason that is considered major or next year he won't have to worry about the baseball free agent market place because he will be a free agent of a different kind. (My bet is a major trade will be made because he knows BobCast expects improvement - Thank goodness)

You know, does everybody around here think that Wayne Krivsky is a dope, hanging on by a thread of the waiting to be dropped into a fiery hell by the angry Bob Castellini? This guy worked in a successful organization as a important member of that organization. I've never had the sense that he's in over his head.

Perhaps a major trade will happen, but sometimes one has to be methodical in shoring up this listing ship of a team. The moves thus far have been not terribly major shoring up weakness. There are other weakness that must be addressed for the coming season, all the while keeping an eye on the future. Keep in mind, with the exception of the Nats trade, nothing we picked up last season was at a price that sacrificed the future.

I think BC is committed to WK (and similarly Jerry Narron) and making this a top flight organization from top to bottom. Castellini didn't make his money by being capricious in his business dealings. I doubt he's going to change those stripes now that he owns a baseball team too.

Heath
11-30-2006, 10:10 AM
I'm still not sold on Narron as manager with WayneK. WayneK might be holding that trump card as a "Get out of Jail Free" card.

Each GM likes to hire his own manager. I'm guessing that WayneK is the same.

westofyou
11-30-2006, 11:14 AM
The same Beane that is in negotiations with Barry Bonds?

That's assumed now isn't it?

Beane is widely quoted as saying he doesn't discuss FA signings at all.

dabvu2498
11-30-2006, 11:43 AM
That's assumed now isn't it?

Beane is widely quoted as saying he doesn't discuss FA signings at all.

But David Forst does.


A's Considering Barry Bonds As New DH
By JANIE McCAULEY 11.18.06, 5:59 AM ET

The Oakland Athletics need a designated hitter, and they aren't going far for one potential candidate to fill the spot: Barry Bonds.

A's general manager Billy Beane has had conversations with Bonds' agent Jeff Borris about the 42-year-old slugger, who has played the past 14 seasons with San Francisco. Oakland lost Frank Thomas on Friday when he finalized an $18.12 million, two-year contract with the Toronto Blue Jays.

Bonds, who became a free agent after the season at the conclusion of a $90 million, five-year deal with the Giants, also is being pursued by San Francisco. The seven-time NL MVP has said he would like to play his 22nd and perhaps final season for the Giants and finish his career in San Francisco, which hosts the 2007 All-Star game at its waterfront ballpark.

Bonds, who had surgery on his troublesome left elbow after the season ended, has 734 home runs and is closing on Hank Aaron's record of 755.

"We've talked about a lot of players internally," said A's assistant GM David Forst, speaking on behalf of the organization as Beane dealt with a death in the family. "Barry is one of the guys out there who we're considering. ... He's probably the best player in the game the last 15 years. I think anybody would be interested in having his bat in the lineup."



http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/11/18/ap3187366.html

westofyou
11-30-2006, 11:47 AM
But David Forst does.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/11/18/ap3187366.html

Beane goes to a funeral and the leak comes from his assistant... I love it.

dabvu2498
11-30-2006, 11:54 AM
Beane goes to a funeral and the leak comes from his assistant... I love it.

Forst is leaking like a sieve. Wonder if Billy's still incommunicado.


Catcher Mike Piazza, whom the A's considered a year ago to be their DH before Piazza signed with San Diego and the A's targeted Frank Thomas, is the latest big-name player in the twilight of his career the A's are considering.

"He'd be an interesting fit," said assistant general manager David Forst, who added a report that the A's are in "serious negotiations" with Piazza is premature. "I'd say we are seriously considering him."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_4738390

westofyou
11-30-2006, 11:58 AM
Forst is leaking like a sieve. Wonder if Billy's still incommunicado.


http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_4738390

Dave must have missed the big meeting.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/baseball/mlb/oakland_athletics/16024381.htm


``I wouldn't comment on who is out there,'' Beane said Tuesday. ``This is a competitive time of year. There's a lot of guys out there. I don't think tipping your hand on who you might or might not be interested in serves our interest.''

redsmetz
11-30-2006, 12:13 PM
WOY shared,


"I wouldn't comment on who is out there,'' Beane said Tuesday. ``This is a competitive time of year. There's a lot of guys out there. I don't think tipping your hand on who you might or might not be interested in serves our interest.''

Which is precisely what a number of us have said about the taciturn approach WK is taking.

dabvu2498
11-30-2006, 12:15 PM
WOY shared,



Which is precisely what a number of us have said about the taciturn approach WK is taking.

Yeah, and WK doesn't have his assistant out there leaking info to keep people interested.

Not sure if that's good or bad.

Of course, there are only a few people (outside RZ) that really give a crap what WK does, while everyone in baseball is looking at BB's (and his minions') every move.

redsrule2500
11-30-2006, 04:28 PM
I think Ross is likely a goner. Which is fine. Cash him in.

Now that would be a huge mistake. :bang:

BRM
11-30-2006, 04:40 PM
Now that would be a huge mistake. :bang:

Not a fan of selling high?

flyer85
11-30-2006, 05:11 PM
from BP


Almost certainly a waste of a 40-man roster spot, and not even necessarily a worthwhile choice for a third catcher, let alone a primary reserve. Moeller hit just enough in a typical career pattern (at ages 27 and 28) in the bandbox formerly named BOB to get taken far too seriously. Wayne Krivsky knows him from his days as a Twins farmhand, and at best, you might consider this the sort of move that inspires Krivsky to shop Javier Valentin, but in the wake of having already dealt Jason LaRue, I very much doubt it. So, a bad move, in a minor key—the Reds would have been better off finding another way to use roster spot, and would have been better off offering Moeller into signing a spring training NRI deal. If he didn't take that, it isn't like that many other teams were going to make this particular mistake.

Ltlabner
11-30-2006, 11:01 PM
Not a fan of selling high?

The value of him even comming close to last years production for us far outweighs what we'd get in trade. As much as we can see that Ross's production last year was a spike, so can other GM's. I don't think he'd bring much in return unless a part of a big package deal.

Ltlabner
11-30-2006, 11:03 PM
I'm at a national sales meeting and was talking baseball with some serrious fans and casual ones. Two guys from Milwaukee were stunned we picked this guy up. One guy (serrious fan) said, "oh...no...that's bad". The other guy (casual fan) said "the guy who got cut last year?!?!".

Totally antidoctial but thought I'd share the joy.

TOBTTReds
11-30-2006, 11:08 PM
I think people are taking this signing way too seriously. Just because he was in the majors at one time, doesn't mean he will be with us. I could see him starting in AAA next year.

edabbs44
11-30-2006, 11:17 PM
At what point does the pro-Wayne faction of RZ start to question the moves of the off-season? I've been openly questioning the motives of the FO for months and have been told to wait b/c the FO has been talking about money to be spent and trades to be made.

Seriously, I'd like to know.

Heath
11-30-2006, 11:35 PM
At what point does the pro-Wayne faction of RZ start to question the moves of the off-season? I've been openly questioning the motives of the FO for months and have been told to wait b/c the FO has been talking about money to be spent and trades to be made.

Seriously, I'd like to know.

Date one is April 7, 2007

Date two is July 30, 2007

see me then.

By the way, you want a gold star for your Wayne-bashing? Judging by your signature, Wayne's not getting out of your doghouse anytime soon.

If you want to judge him on one trade and micro-manage his other deals, go ahead. Thankfully there are drafts and other overall job duties that are important than trading players to make this a winning organization.

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 12:09 AM
If you want to judge him on one trade and micro-manage his other deals, go ahead. Thankfully there are drafts and other overall job duties that are important than trading players to make this a winning organization.

No, I want direction. What this team is currently doing is treading water. Gonzalez, Stanton, Moeller, etc. What does this do for the franchise? Does anyone in their right mind think that AGon will be on this team when they are in contention? Translation: Will this team be in contention in the next 3 years? And serious contention, not contention in spite of their performance.

Look, I've listened to the front office spout about how they were going to spend money if they were in the race this past year. I guess that meant Lohse and Cormier, while saving money on the Washington disaster.

I have heard how they were going to be active this off-season. Nothing yet, but there is a lot of time left so hopefully something happens.

This is the part that kills me...read these excerpts from BA.


The Red Sox spent roughly $9 million on draft picks in 2006, with righthander Daniel Bard (first round), first baseman Lars Anderson (18th), righty Bryce Cox (third), lefty Kris Johnson (supplemental first) and outfielder Jason Place (first) all cracking the Top 10.



As some talent graduates to the top, the Yankees replenished the bottom of their farm system, bringing in as much talent as any organization in 2006. New York spent roughly $7 million on the draft, landing four pitchers (Dellin Betances, Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy and Mark Melancon) who jump into their top 10. The Yankees also spent heavily on a dozen international players, including $2 million for Venezuelan catcher Jesus Montero. While he had a poor minicamp in the fall, Montero was widely regarded as having the most power among 2006 international signees.


Snider, a high school outfielder, snapped Toronto's five-year streak of taking a college player with their top pick. He won MVP honors in the Rookie-level Appalachian League, as did Lind in the Double-A Eastern League. Because the Blue Jays gave up their second- and third-round picks in the 2006 draft to sign Burnett and Ryan, they invested $725,000 in 16-year-old Venezuelan third baseman Balbino Fuenmayor after he had an impressive workout at Rogers Centre. They also gave six-figure bonuses to four late-round choices: righthanders Chase Lirette (16th), Kyle Ginley (17th) and Graham Godfrey (34th), plus second baseman Jonathan del Campo (20th).

The $$$ being dished out by Wayne, IMO, should be spent like this. $14 million for a SS who can't hit? Dump it into the farm system. Wayne could have taken $5 million of AGon's money each year and spent it on the draft and intl signings. Believe me, AGon will not bring this team any closer to the postseason. Drafts and intl scouting will in time.

This team is currently nowhere near playoff worthy and the current signings are not getting them any closer. To me, it doesn't seem like he has a plan. He had a chance to draft a ton of highly rated players as they slid in 2006, but failed to do so. And it doesn't seem like they are being too aggressive this winter. We can all laugh at the contracts being offered out there, but when Soriano and Carlos Lee are banging balls off the batter's eye next season, their contracts will be forgotten. Last year's draft was a perfect opportunity to restock the farm and they dropped the ball.

If WK makes a couple of bombshell deals this winter, then I will publicly apologize to WK. But all we have seen from the FO is a ton of smoke. And it's been a full year now.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 12:11 AM
I just want them to spend that 2 million they saved giving away Larue. :)

Rojo
12-01-2006, 12:15 AM
I just want them to spend that 2 million they saved giving away Larue. :)

They already did on our new closer, Mike Stanton.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 12:16 AM
They already did on our new closer, Mike Stanton.

Masterstroke.

I'm sure his 2 million will come in handy next year. Oh wait....

Rojo
12-01-2006, 12:19 AM
Masterstroke.

I'm sure his 2 million will come in handy next year. Oh wait....


Dang, that was quick. Old southpaws, what an odd fetish.

Heath
12-01-2006, 08:15 AM
No, I want direction. What this team is currently doing is treading water. Gonzalez, Stanton, Moeller, etc. What does this do for the franchise? Does anyone in their right mind think that AGon will be on this team when they are in contention? Translation: Will this team be in contention in the next 3 years? And serious contention, not contention in spite of their performance.

Look, I've listened to the front office spout about how they were going to spend money if they were in the race this past year. I guess that meant Lohse and Cormier, while saving money on the Washington disaster.

I have heard how they were going to be active this off-season. Nothing yet, but there is a lot of time left so hopefully something happens.

The $$$ being dished out by Wayne, IMO, should be spent like this. $14 million for a SS who can't hit? Dump it into the farm system. Wayne could have taken $5 million of AGon's money each year and spent it on the draft and intl signings. Believe me, AGon will not bring this team any closer to the postseason. Drafts and intl scouting will in time.

So, all the above you mention you want contention, but now drafts and international scouting take time? Yet, Wayne's been readied to be tossed under a bus. That's a contradiction. Plus, most of all the activity usually happens after the December meetings. That's baseball history. It's also been pointed out that Wayne DOES have a plan to shore up the weaknesses. He brought in a defensive SS. He brought in a Kent Mercker-type to the bullpen.

Do Paul Janish and David Shafer come to mind? Basically that's Alex Gonzalez and Mike Stanton. If Janish could just hit himself out of a paper bag and David Shafer is re-habbed completely, there's your farm system replacements. Would that be satisfactory to you?

And "Spending Money" must mean "stupid money" on July 30, 2006. You don't spend money - you spend players, usually farm system types. Again, instant gratification that would, most likely, leave a gaping hole in a already depleted system.


This team is currently nowhere near playoff worthy and the current signings are not getting them any closer. To me, it doesn't seem like he has a plan. He had a chance to draft a ton of highly rated players as they slid in 2006, but failed to do so. And it doesn't seem like they are being too aggressive this winter. We can all laugh at the contracts being offered out there, but when Soriano and Carlos Lee are banging balls off the batter's eye next season, their contracts will be forgotten. Last year's draft was a perfect opportunity to restock the farm and they dropped the ball.

If WK makes a couple of bombshell deals this winter, then I will publicly apologize to WK. But all we have seen from the FO is a ton of smoke. And it's been a full year now.

I think the 2006 Reds have been dissected so much around here by the hard-core intellegent Reds Fans (Cyclone, woy, M2, IslandRed, et. al.) that the contention was simply a mirage and by the grace of the putrid National League Central, there was meaningful September baseball.

However, the economics of baseball today tell teams to over spend. Do you think that Soriano's contract in the long-term will help the Cubs? Do you think that Soriano can keep up with all his numbers while running around in CF and leading off? Do you think that Carlos Lee and his weight issues, his ability to suck with RISP, and his defense off those crazy posts in LF are going to help the Astros in a few years? While this might be an era of instant gratification of instant everything, baseball does not reward that thinking. If so, why aren't the Yankees 7 time straight World Series Winners?

Wayne Krvisky was hired at the wrong time to succeed. He was hired just before a season started and he basically had to adjust on the fly AND cram for a June draft. I think people think there is some magic (Not Majic) powder or something that you sprinkle on you when you become General Manager of a Major League Baseball Team. It's not that easy.

Castellini bought the club in January. Wayne Krvisky was hired in March. He's not even a birthed baby yet. When the water breaks, you'll know.

And Wayne will accept your apology.

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 09:24 AM
So, all the above you mention you want contention, but now drafts and international scouting take time?

No, I want a direction. And the direction right now is even keel. They are not making difference making moves this past July and during this off-season. True, these contracts have been ludicrous. You could even say that some of Wayne's contracts this off-season are a little off kilter, but they aren't franchise breakers. They are spending some money, but not enough to make a difference. I am flabbergasted (this is not directed towards you) that this board has some people who weren't throwing up when Gonzalez was signed. He had a .299 OBP last season. Do we think that this team is a good fielding SS away from making a move?

So my thing here is that WK has to make a decision. Go for it or punt and start building the farm. And I didn't see that this draft. They had the ability to draft some guys who would have cost more but would have strengthened the farm even more. And that didn't happen. So I haven't seen WK make a meaningful move in either direction.


And "Spending Money" must mean "stupid money" on July 30, 2006. You don't spend money - you spend players, usually farm system types. Again, instant gratification that would, most likely, leave a gaping hole in a already depleted system.
No, b/c there were people out there who were acquired for a song and a dance. The Yankees got Abreu and Lidle, the Dodgers got Maddux and Lieber was there for the taking. All you had to do was basically absorb some money. And we got over the hill stiffs.


I think the 2006 Reds have been dissected so much around here by the hard-core intellegent Reds Fans (Cyclone, woy, M2, IslandRed, et. al.) that the contention was simply a mirage and by the grace of the putrid National League Central, there was meaningful September baseball.

I don't think it takes a "hard-core intelligent Reds fan" to figure this one out. That team had no business being in a race last year. If they were there b/c of their on-field performance, then the moves being made by WK would be sensible. Shore up your bullpen with a vet. Get a GG shortstop in. But this team needs starting pitching and hitting above anything else. And until he gets that, it wouldn't matter if Ozzie Smith was playing SS.


However, the economics of baseball today tell teams to over spend. Do you think that Soriano's contract in the long-term will help the Cubs?
Yes. I believe this b/c when Soriano starts to get older, a contract like his won't affect the Cubs like it would affect Cincy.


Do you think that Soriano can keep up with all his numbers while running around in CF and leading off?
Yes. He played LF in a cavernous ballpark this year, led off, and had a pretty good season, no?


Do you think that Carlos Lee and his weight issues, his ability to suck with RISP, and his defense off those crazy posts in LF are going to help the Astros in a few years?
Weight issues are TBD, but I believe the Astros put a weight clause in his contract.

Suck with RISP?

2006: .331/.398/.544

Agreed on the defense question, but he won't have to run around too much since LF is about 250 feet away from the plate.

And since you brought up all these issues about Lee, doesn't he sound like a LFer we know pretty well?


Wayne Krvisky was hired at the wrong time to succeed. He was hired just before a season started and he basically had to adjust on the fly AND cram for a June draft. I think people think there is some magic (Not Majic) powder or something that you sprinkle on you when you become General Manager of a Major League Baseball Team. It's not that easy.

Agreed here, but this board has been using this as an excuse for a while now. He made a couple of moves that turned out really well early on and then has pretty much bombed in almost every move ever since. Getting fleeced in trades (Washington, Lohse), giving extensions to people who maybe he should have waited on (Hatte, Cormier) and pickups that completely bombed (Mays, Yan, etc). After the trio of Arroyo, Phillips and Ross, is there any moves he made that you could say was a smart move?

Look, the whole crux to my argument is that this team is currently headed nowhere. If he goes out and signs Zito and Schmidt, then I'd say he's doing something. Plugging holes with questionable acquisitions like he has isn't going to do much for this team. If this is a preview of the next few years, get ready for a few years of utter mediocrity. And if this is how it's gonna be, then punt and start over. Forget Minnesota and use Florida as your model.

Heath
12-01-2006, 10:41 AM
No, I want a direction. And the direction right now is even keel. They are not making difference making moves this past July and during this off-season. True, these contracts have been ludicrous. You could even say that some of Wayne's contracts this off-season are a little off kilter, but they aren't franchise breakers. They are spending some money, but not enough to make a difference. I am flabbergasted (this is not directed towards you) that this board has some people who weren't throwing up when Gonzalez was signed. He had a .299 OBP last season. Do we think that this team is a good fielding SS away from making a move?

So my thing here is that WK has to make a decision. Go for it or punt and start building the farm. And I didn't see that this draft. They had the ability to draft some guys who would have cost more but would have strengthened the farm even more. And that didn't happen. So I haven't seen WK make a meaningful move in either direction.

Again, the guy has had 9 months on the job. He's the guy who has to cram before the final exam. I don't think in 9 months you can set a direction, especially if you are tossed into the job less than a month before the season began. I wouldn't be surprised that the Reds are active after the meetings and now have the resources for a great draft. They are also lower in the rounds and sometimes that can be a benefit. I'm not throwing up after the Gonzalez deal, heck, Royce Clayton got a contract. There is percieved value with Gonzalez. But since its not a blockbuster FA signing, it must suck.


No, b/c there were people out there who were acquired for a song and a dance. The Yankees got Abreu and Lidle, the Dodgers got Maddux and Lieber was there for the taking. All you had to do was basically absorb some money. And we got over the hill stiffs.

The Yankees got Abreu & Lidle because Bobby Abreu wasn't going anywhere but NY and at 13.6 million wasn't heading anyplace BUT New York. Apples and Oranges.

Maddux & Leiber were the same way. Maddux wasn't going anyplace but West. Lieber was a health risk after being on the DL and was posting a 5.00 ERA at $2 Million MORE than what Eric Milton makes and was doing. How is THAT going to help the club? And he's 36.


I don't think it takes a "hard-core intelligent Reds fan" to figure this one out. That team had no business being in a race last year. If they were there b/c of their on-field performance, then the moves being made by WK would be sensible. Shore up your bullpen with a vet. Get a GG shortstop in. But this team needs starting pitching and hitting above anything else. And until he gets that, it wouldn't matter if Ozzie Smith was playing SS.

But the offseason is just over a month old, do you expect Wayne to remodel the team in less than 45 days? Also, baseball history shows that most deals get done after the Winter Meetings.


Yes. I believe this b/c when Soriano starts to get older, a contract like his won't affect the Cubs like it would affect Cincy.
Yes. He played LF in a cavernous ballpark this year, led off, and had a pretty good season, no?

He played LF. He didn't play CF. It's been shown what Center Field can do to a body. Soriano is going to have to make a decision whether he's going to be the richest doubles hitter in baseball or a poor outfielder that kills the ball. And your point about the Cubs not being affected by his contract proves the point that Cincinnati wasn't going to sign Soriano. If Soriano signed in Cincinnati and he was hurt all the time or not producing, wouldn't you be all over WayneK for the "overpayment"?


Weight issues are TBD, but I believe the Astros put a weight clause in his contract.
Suck with RISP?
2006: .331/.398/.544
Agreed on the defense question, but he won't have to run around too much since LF is about 250 feet away from the plate.
And since you brought up all these issues about Lee, doesn't he sound like a LFer we know pretty well?


Carlos Lee is an enigma. And his 2006 RISP numbers are career highs. I don't doubt that his offense would be any worse, but I don't think that Lee will be endearing Astro fans with the glove. As far as our LF guy, I'd like to see him with a 1b mitt and just stick it out.



Agreed here, but this board has been using this as an excuse for a while now. He made a couple of moves that turned out really well early on and then has pretty much bombed in almost every move ever since. Getting fleeced in trades (Washington, Lohse), giving extensions to people who maybe he should have waited on (Hatte, Cormier) and pickups that completely bombed (Mays, Yan, etc). After the trio of Arroyo, Phillips and Ross, is there any moves he made that you could say was a smart move?

Look, the whole crux to my argument is that this team is currently headed nowhere. If he goes out and signs Zito and Schmidt, then I'd say he's doing something. Plugging holes with questionable acquisitions like he has isn't going to do much for this team. If this is a preview of the next few years, get ready for a few years of utter mediocrity. And if this is how it's gonna be, then punt and start over. Forget Minnesota and use Florida as your model.

Jim Bowden in his first moves did the following. He traded Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly. He signed Damon Berryhill as a free agent. He fired Tony Perez after 44 games. That took Jim about 12-18 months to get a direction. (Which was try to reload every year, sign vets to cheap contracts, sign as many pitchers as possible, and sign guys coming off bad years or injured years to rehab them).

The whole crux of our disagreement is one thing. Timing. Your timing is rushed, IMO. There is no patience on development and direction to occur. If Jim Bowden can have 18 months, why is Wayne Krvisky crucified after 9? That's why as a 'Krivsky Supporter' (if that's my label, I guess) I gave you the two dates. One was Opening Day. That's the roster you go north with to start. The second was the trade deadline. Whether you are in the race or out of the race will tell you want you can get back in deals that will prove the direction of the franchise.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 10:49 AM
So where was all this wait-and-see patience with DanO?

Oh, now I know: DanO wasn't hired by the conquering hero Castellini. I sense that there is a severe conflation of Castellini sweeping in to free the fans from the clutches of old Lindner and Bob's hiring of Wayne. It's a normal psychological phenomenon. The new, the novel, gets a shine that it hasn't earned solely because it's new. Add a strong, smart, and straight-speaking owner and all of a sudden you're the Teflon GM, impervious to attacks from without. After 12 months there was nearly universal willingness to can DanO (and rightly so); after 10, with very similar results, Wayne is still very much the golden boy, with a few vocal exceptions. Why is that?

westofyou
12-01-2006, 10:55 AM
So where was all this wait-and-see patience with DanO?

Look in the archives, there was plenty of it... and the man started before the off season kicked off.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 10:57 AM
Look in the archives, there was plenty of it... and the man started before the off season kicked off.

After 12 months? I'll look, but I'm only going to find a fairly small confederacy. Basically those who defend the FO no matter what.

westofyou
12-01-2006, 10:59 AM
After 12 months? I'll look, but I'm only going to find a fairly small confederacy. Basically those who defend the FO no matter what.

As opposed to those who slam them no matter what?

Whoppeee

Heath
12-01-2006, 11:01 AM
So where was all this wait-and-see patience with DanO?

Oh, now I know: DanO wasn't hired by the conquering hero Castellini. I sense that there is a severe conflation of Castellini sweeping in to free the fans from the clutches of old Lindner and Bob's hiring of Wayne. It's a normal psychological phenomenon. The new, the novel, gets a shine that it hasn't earned solely because it's new. Add a strong, smart, and straight-speaking owner and all of a sudden you're the Teflon GM, impervious to attacks from without. After 12 months there was nearly universal willingness to can DanO (and rightly so); after 10, with very similar results, Wayne is still very much the golden boy, with a few vocal exceptions. Why is that?

That's a great question, FCB, why didn't DanO get more slack? And we'll never know since Castellini bought the club and he wanted his own GM, not the guy left over from the previous regime. Castellini could have EASILY kept DanO as well and then we could have seen what the direction that DanO would have had.

There was a regime change with Castellini, we knew what we had in Lindner. DanO was Lindner's 2nd GM after inheriting Bowden. Castellini has hired his first GM - that's why there is slack with Wayne.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 11:01 AM
As opposed to those who slam them no matter what?

Whoppeee

I was trying to make a sensible point, not get in a tit for tat. I'm genuinely curious about the distinction in fans' minds.

Heath
12-01-2006, 11:04 AM
I was trying to make a sensible point, not get in a tit for tat. I'm genuinely curious about the distinction in fans' minds.

It seems, IMO, that when a new owner blows into town for a baseball team, he tends to blow it up and start with his own people. It happened when the Dodgers got sold. It happened last spring when Namioli finally sold the Rays. Each owner wants to leave his mark on the club. This is why I give Cast/WayneK the benefit of the doubt as far as direction of the ball club.

Hoosier Red
12-01-2006, 11:04 AM
By the way, as to Alex Gonzalez being a black hole offensively. I wanted to see what kind of an impact GABP would have on him, and so I looked at the last 5 starting infielders and what GABP did for their offensive numbers.


These are last 5 veteran infielders who came to Cincinnati as starters. I'm counting Clayton who was an unmitigated disaster and has a smaller sample size than the others. I'm not counting Brandon Phillips or David Ross who both would make the disparity that much larger, I'll leave their improvements to this being their first significant playing time.

D'Angelo Jiminez: Before Cincinnati(.255 BA, .332 OBP, 343 SLG)
First Season (.290 BA, .365 OBP, .421 SLG)
Joe Randa Before Cincy (.287 BA, .343 OBP, .408 SLG)
First Season (.289 BA, .356 OBP, .491 SLG)
Rich Aurillia Before Cincy (.255 BA, .314 OBP, .353 SLG)
First Season (.282 BA, .338 OBP, .444 SLG)
Scott Hatteberg Before Cincy (.256 BA, .334 OBP, .343 SLG)
First Season (.289 BA, .389 OBP, .436 SLG)
Royce Clayton Before Cincy (.269 BA, .315 OBP, .348 SLG)
1st and Only season (.235 BA, .290 OBP, .329 SLG)

The cumulative totals: Before Cincinnati (.263, .328, 372)
First Seasons (.277, .348, 424)
Difference .014, .020, .052

Even taking Clayton's awfulness into account, I think it's likely Gonzalez' numbers will go up. If he were to have .315 OPB/.420 SLG out of the 7th or 8th spot, would you not take that?

westofyou
12-01-2006, 11:10 AM
It seems, IMO, that when a new owner blows into town for a baseball team, he tends to blow it up and start with his own people. This is why I give Cast/WayneK the benefit of the doubt as far as direction of the ball club.

Yep, Dan O'brien was like the GM at Burger Chef in 1978

Krivsky is the GM of Wendys in 1978.

Not the same organization and both with different philosophy's and futures.

dfs
12-01-2006, 11:13 AM
That's a great question, FCB, why didn't DanO get more slack?

Because he seemed paralyzed.

NJReds
12-01-2006, 11:16 AM
So where was all this wait-and-see patience with DanO?

Oh, now I know: DanO wasn't hired by the conquering hero Castellini. I sense that there is a severe conflation of Castellini sweeping in to free the fans from the clutches of old Lindner and Bob's hiring of Wayne. It's a normal psychological phenomenon. The new, the novel, gets a shine that it hasn't earned solely because it's new. Add a strong, smart, and straight-speaking owner and all of a sudden you're the Teflon GM, impervious to attacks from without. After 12 months there was nearly universal willingness to can DanO (and rightly so); after 10, with very similar results, Wayne is still very much the golden boy, with a few vocal exceptions. Why is that?


I don't see how you can judge a guy before he's had at least one offseason to start working with the organization.

I felt the same way with DOB. I didn't praise or bury him until I got a sense of the body of work. DOB also had to work under the constraints of John Allen and to some extent, Linder, who 'allegedly' overruled some of his suggested moves.

Lets look at why Castellini is the 'conquering hero.' Well, on Day 1 he banished Allen from all baseball decisions. Good start. WK was on the short list of people to hire; 1) before DOB was hired and 2) when it was speculated that DOB would be fired. So I don't know why the surprise that he was a popular choice.

He was hired in March, leaving little time to reshape the team. Traded Pena for Arroyo, brought in Ross and Phillips. Signed Dunn to a LTC.

Not much to hate there.

Then "THE TRADE" ... here is where the big anti-WK movement started. I didn't like the move, most of us didn't. And in retrospect, I'd say it's almost impossible to defend.

But I'll still going hold off judgement on WK until the team takes the field on opening day. I don't like the Moeller move at all, and he'll have to pull off some pretty interesting deals for me to be solidly in his corner. But to sit here and judge the guy off 8 months of work is a little disingenuous.

Let's at least wait for the conclusion of the Winter Meetings to see if he come up with some brilliant plan to save our team. (You'd do it for Randolph Scott ;) )

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 12:20 PM
I don't see how you can judge a guy before he's had at least one offseason to start working with the organization.

I felt the same way with DOB. I didn't praise or bury him until I got a sense of the body of work. DOB also had to work under the constraints of John Allen and to some extent, Linder, who 'allegedly' overruled some of his suggested moves.

Lets look at why Castellini is the 'conquering hero.' Well, on Day 1 he banished Allen from all baseball decisions. Good start. WK was on the short list of people to hire; 1) before DOB was hired and 2) when it was speculated that DOB would be fired. So I don't know why the surprise that he was a popular choice.

He was hired in March, leaving little time to reshape the team. Traded Pena for Arroyo, brought in Ross and Phillips. Signed Dunn to a LTC.

Not much to hate there.

Then "THE TRADE" ... here is where the big anti-WK movement started. I didn't like the move, most of us didn't. And in retrospect, I'd say it's almost impossible to defend.

But I'll still going hold off judgement on WK until the team takes the field on opening day. I don't like the Moeller move at all, and he'll have to pull off some pretty interesting deals for me to be solidly in his corner. But to sit here and judge the guy off 8 months of work is a little disingenuous.

Let's at least wait for the conclusion of the Winter Meetings to see if he come up with some brilliant plan to save our team. (You'd do it for Randolph Scott ;) )

The problem with that is one day we might wake up and say "OK, it's now been 18 months and we are still waiting."

That's why I am looking for direction. And I can't figure it out right now.

The moves last summer were confusing. They were acting like these were moves to get them over the hump, but to me they were like "We know were not that good, but let's at least do something to give the appearance that we care."

The draft killed me. It was the same as years past. They had an opportunity to makes waves and failed miserably.

This offseason is even confusing me more. These moves are like the deadline deals of 2005. Not going to make the team that much better. Kind of like a stopgap.

The thing that confuses me the most is that even though these are (IMO) stopgap signings, they are quite costly. $14 million over 3 years isn't cheap, no matter who you are. That's a move you make when you think you are close to playoff-bound at a minimum.

So to summarize, I have no idea what they are doing. Playing for now? Doubt it, unless there are some major moves on the horizon. Building for the future? Not sure of that either, as they are not spending a lot of money during the draft or internationally. Somewhere in the middle? That's what I am scared of. My view on the game today is that you have to be aggressive at either the ML level or in building the farm or, best case, both. I don't see either case happening and, therefore, I am afraid that the next 5-10 years will feel the ramifications of the decisions happening now. If the team finishes 75-87 with a great fielding SS, then to me that money was wasted.

osuceltic
12-01-2006, 12:26 PM
Part of the problem is some people -- posters on this board -- believe the only way to build a team is their way. If Krivsky makes moves they wouldn't make -- even if those moves work out -- then he gets not credit for them. That was luck. When he makes moves they wouldn't make that don't work out, he gets crucified. The only way he can win is to make moves they agree with -- and then he gets no credit because they were obvious moves.

Baseball is an interesting game. There are a lot of ways to build winning teams. The philosophy of the A's and the Twins are pretty different, but both win. The White Sox and Giants are unique in the way they do it, but they both win.

The on-field results are the key. It's not about having the best minor league system or "winning" the draft or even winning a trade the day it is announced. It's about getting to the playoffs. The Reds came closer under Krivsky than they have in quite some time. His acquisition of Bronson Arroyo was the franchise's most significant in terms of actually winning games since ... Jose Rijo? That's saying something.

Anyway, you don't have to agree with the way Krivsky goes about building a winner. But if he builds a winner (no guarantee, certainly), the criticisms are going to ring awfully hollow.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 12:29 PM
This offseason is even confusing me more. These moves are like the deadline deals of 2005. Not going to make the team that much better. Kind of like a stopgap.

The thing that confuses me the most is that even though these are (IMO) stopgap signings, they are quite costly. $14 million over 3 years isn't cheap, no matter who you are. That's a move you make when you think you are close to playoff-bound at a minimum.

.

I still think this team is in for a slow rebuild--Cast was all piss and vinegar when he took over, yet now he's sounding VERY measured in his language and enthusiasm after getting a dose of FA sticker-shock. I think they're looking to keep the club together with duct-tape and bailing wire (Gonzo, Lohse) until the kids arrive from the farm. So, in essence, the same philosophy that was here under Lindner (wait, wait, and more wait) is in effect here with Cast; it's just that Cast believes (rightly or wrongly, I have no idea) he's got the man (Wayne) to build the farm and transition the kids. I think all that's changed is that we've replaced one farm developer (DanO) for another (Wayne). The philosophy will remain the same.

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 12:42 PM
The on-field results are the key. It's not about having the best minor league system or "winning" the draft or even winning a trade the day it is announced. It's about getting to the playoffs. The Reds came closer under Krivsky than they have in quite some time. His acquisition of Bronson Arroyo was the franchise's most significant in terms of actually winning games since ... Jose Rijo? That's saying something.

I'd go with "...since Greg Vaughn", but I agree it was significant. And WK isn't the main reason why they came close. The disaster known as the NL was the main reason.

You can also say that the Reds came closer to the playoffs than in years under Jerry Narron. I would say in spite of him.

flyer85
12-01-2006, 12:47 PM
WK built up a lot of good will with Reds fans in some of early deals(Arroyo, Ross, Phillips). However, IMHO, he spent all that with "the trade".

Redsland
12-01-2006, 12:53 PM
I think people are taking this signing way too seriously. Just because he was in the majors at one time, doesn't mean he will be with us. I could see him starting in AAA next year.
He's on the 40-man roster and has a major league contract, therefore he'd have to be exposed to waivers in order to be sent down. Furthermore, he has six years of service time, which may be enough to allow him to refuse a minor league assignment.

Plus, here's what Wayne had to say about the signing:
"You just can't go with two catchers - you'd better have depth there," said Krivsky.

AAA seems unlikely in light of the above.

Heath
12-01-2006, 12:54 PM
.....I am afraid that the next 5-10 years will feel the ramifications of the decisions happening now....

You could actually go to June 1999 and insert that sentence on a very early version of redszone.com

Ltlabner
12-01-2006, 07:44 PM
The moves last summer were confusing. They were acting like these were moves to get them over the hump, but to me they were like "We know were not that good, but let's at least do something to give the appearance that we care."

So to summarize, I have no idea what they are doing.

Krivsky's made it clear what his direction is. That you don't agree with it, or feal his moves don't measure up doesn't mean it's not there. He's said over and over that he values pitching and defense. Not every move he's made has furthered that means (this Moeller move for example..just downright bad) but that doesn't change that there is an overall direction and goal in mind.


Baseball is an interesting game. There are a lot of ways to build winning teams. The philosophy of the A's and the Twins are pretty different, but both win. The White Sox and Giants are unique in the way they do it, but they both win.

VERY interesting post worthy of discussion. Not all teams do it the same way, yet many are competitive. There is no one perfect way.


So, in essence, the same philosophy that was here under Lindner (wait, wait, and more wait) is in effect here with Cast; it's just that Cast believes (rightly or wrongly, I have no idea) he's got the man (Wayne) to build the farm and transition the kids.

So now you will harp on Cast too and beat the drum that he must go? Joy.

This team is light years ahead of where they were under Linder and OBrian. It is far from competitive but is heading in a good direction. I don't think BCast and Krivsky are perfect and don't have flaws, but I'd rather have them at the helm of the ship than what we've had. I know they haven't turned the ship around in the 4 months you gave them, but improvements have been made. Maybe they aren't the right owner and GM but we've moved from orbiting around Pulto in terms of competitiveness and have moved in closer to the sun.

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 08:09 PM
So now you will harp on Cast too and beat the drum that he must go? Joy.

This team is light years ahead of where they were under Linder and OBrian. It is far from competitive but is heading in a good direction. I don't think BCast and Krivsky are perfect and don't have flaws, but I'd rather have them at the helm of the ship than what we've had. I know they haven't turned the ship around in the 4 months you gave them, but improvements have been made. Maybe they aren't the right owner and GM but we've moved from orbiting around Pulto in terms of competitiveness and have moved in closer to the sun.

The part about Cast is speculation based upon recent press statements. He sounds like he's backpeddling on his previous "Win now" statements faster than a kid on a Big Wheel. He's essentially begun preaching patience.

Maybe there's nothing to read in those press statements, I don't know. But they often contain some shred of truth.

Ltlabner
12-01-2006, 08:12 PM
The part about Cast is speculation based upon recent press statements. He sounds like he's backpeddling on his previous "Win now" statements faster than a kid on a Big Wheel. He's essentially begun preaching patience.

Maybe there's nothing to read in those press statements, I don't know. But they often contain some shred of truth.

Sorry...I've been in winter sales meetings the past 3 days and haven't been able to read every thread. What press statements are these?

Rojo
12-01-2006, 08:16 PM
I didn't cut DanO slack because most of his moves weren't just bad, they were obvious -- like the kind a casual fan makes after he reads the sports page. I got a beat on him right away -- incompetent.

Krivsky, OTO, is hard to read. Brilliance, followed by head-scratcher, then back to brilliance. I've mentioned this before, but Wayne may just need to make a few mistakes -- he's not a win every trade guy. And I think he wants to make this his club. The improvement last year was a start, I give him this season as well to build upon that. After that, Ciao.

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 08:16 PM
Krivsky's made it clear what his direction is. That you don't agree with it, or feal his moves don't measure up doesn't mean it's not there. He's said over and over that he values pitching and defense. Not every move he's made has furthered that means (this Moeller move for example..just downright bad) but that doesn't change that there is an overall direction and goal in mind.
Direction isn't "pitching and defense." Direction is will they make some legit moves to put this team into contention over the next 2-3 years, or will they try and build from the ground up? All I have seen is fence sitting, dropping a few million here or there to give the fans something to talk about and when they go 75-87 next season we'll be awaiting the next batch of players whose greatest attribute is a veteran presence.

All I am saying is this team doesn't look like they are headed towards big FA signings or big acquisitions through trades. And I didn't really see them push the envelope regarding the draft or intl signings. That $14 million to Gonzalez will be a HUGE waste of money. Money that could have went towards young talent. So what's his plan? To be satisfied with mediocrity? How will they get talent, if every big name is out of their price range? Just get lesser talent?

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 08:17 PM
Sorry...I've been in winter sales meetings the past 3 days and haven't been able to read every thread. What press statements are these?

Castellini not discouraged

Rivals' spendfest is no deterrent

BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

The Reds are going to put on the biggest and what they think will be the best Redsfest ever.

"We've gone over the top with everything," CEO Bob Castellini said. "It's going to be fantastic."

The return of Redsfest, which opens today at 4 p.m. at Duke Energy Center in an expanded form, is part of Castellini's promise to build a championship organization. The Reds are working hard to sell their product.

But improving the on-the-field product in the current baseball environment is a completely different and difficult endeavor.

Castellini has watched the price of doing business skyrocket this offseason. He has been involved in baseball ownership for almost 30 years, but he says he has been shocked by the amount of money that is being tossed around recently.

"It's absurd," he said. "Paying $70 million for one pitcher for one year? That's a lot of people's payroll."

Castellini was referring to the Boston Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka. The Sox paid $51.1 million for the rights to negotiate with the Japanese star. His salary will push the deal to $70 million.

Closer to home - the National League Central - the Chicago Cubs have agreed to $233 million in free agent contracts this offseason, including the $138 million, eight-year whopper for Alfonso Soriano.

The Houston Astros signed Carlos Lee to an eight-year, $100 million contract.

Castellini, however, said he's not discouraged.

"Of course, not," he said. "We wouldn't be in the game if we were."

The Reds' player payroll was $60.9 million at the start of last season. It will go up this season, but the club is not saying how much.

While the money spent by clubs has gone up considerably - largely as a result of the new labor agreement - Castellini was well aware of what he was getting into when he led a group that bought the club on Jan. 19.

"Absolutely," he said. "It's always been hard. You have to work hard. You have to work smart."

The Reds signed two free agents early. They signed shortstop Alex Gonzalez for $14 million over three years and left-handed reliever Mike Stanton for $5.5 million over two years. They also traded Jason LaRue to Kansas City, despite having to pay $3 million of his $5.3 million salary.

The signing of Gonzalez points to an effort to make a long-term fix by improving the defense. But Castellini is not conceding anything for next season. He thinks the club can contend again.

"We don't plan to be wallflowers," he said. "We're working on this thing 24/7."

Based on the players under contract and what players like Aaron Harang and Kyle Lohse can expect in arbitration, the Reds' payroll is already close to $70 million, which would be a club record. Castellini said how that money is spent is up to general manager Wayne Krivsky.

"He has parameters," Castellini said. "But it's up to him. He talks to me regularly. But he has a wide swath. He knows what he can do and can't do."

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 08:18 PM
I didn't cut DanO slack because most of his moves weren't just bad, they were obvious -- like the kind a casual fan makes after he reads the sports page. I got a beat on him right away -- incompetent.

Krivsky, OTO, is hard to read. Brilliance, followed by head-scratcher, then back to brilliance. I've mentioned this before, but Wayne may just need to make a few mistakes -- he's not a win every trade guy. And I think he wants to make this his club. The improvement last year was a start, I give him this season as well to build upon that. After that, Ciao.

I'm assuming brilliance is BA, Phillips and Ross. And I assume the head-scratcher is the Wash debacle. What was his next move of brilliance, b/c I don't remember anything after the first 3. And you forgot a ton of head-scratchers.

Ltlabner
12-01-2006, 08:19 PM
Direction isn't "pitching and defense." Direction is will they make some legit moves to put this team into contention over the next 2-3 years, or will they try and build from the ground up? All I have seen is fence sitting, dropping a few million here or there to give the fans something to talk about and when they go 75-87 next season we'll be awaiting the next batch of players whose greatest attribute is a veteran presence.

All I am saying is this team doesn't look like they are headed towards big FA signings or big acquisitions through trades. And I didn't really see them push the envelope regarding the draft or intl signings. That $14 million to Gonzalez will be a HUGE waste of money. Money that could have went towards young talent. So what's his plan? To be satisfied with mediocrity? How will they get talent, if every big name is out of their price range? Just get lesser talent?

But is that the only way to build a winning team? Big FA signings and trades? Im asking serriously...I don't know if there is an answer.

Or to ask another way, if he builds a team that is competitive, but doesn't do it via flashy FA signings and trades, will you still be frustrated and dissapointed (my word, not yours).

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 08:21 PM
But is that the only way to build a winning team? Big FA signings and trades? Im asking serriously...I don't know if there is an answer.

The other is to build through the farm. And with the Reds' farm as it currently stands, we're looking at 5 years out before anything of consequence arrives--if at all.

Ltlabner
12-01-2006, 08:24 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post that for me FCB.

I guess I don't see commenting on the stupidity of the first wave of FA signings and then following it up with "we aren't done yet" as a message of "we'll..we have to gowith what we got".

Anyway, off to the office christmas party. I'll be sure to bring back al the juice gossip for you.

edabbs44
12-01-2006, 08:24 PM
But is that the only way to build a winning team? Big FA signings and trades? Im asking serriously...I don't know if there is an answer.

Or to ask another way, if he builds a team that is competitive, but doesn't do it via flashy FA signings and trades, will you still be frustrated and dissapointed (my word, not yours).

Here's my whole post, with the pertinent spots underlined:

Originally Posted by edabbs44
Direction isn't "pitching and defense." Direction is will they make some legit moves to put this team into contention over the next 2-3 years, or will they try and build from the ground up? All I have seen is fence sitting, dropping a few million here or there to give the fans something to talk about and when they go 75-87 next season we'll be awaiting the next batch of players whose greatest attribute is a veteran presence.

All I am saying is this team doesn't look like they are headed towards big FA signings or big acquisitions through trades. And I didn't really see them push the envelope regarding the draft or intl signings. That $14 million to Gonzalez will be a HUGE waste of money. Money that could have went towards young talent. So what's his plan? To be satisfied with mediocrity? How will they get talent, if every big name is out of their price range? Just get lesser talent?

Falls City Beer
12-01-2006, 08:27 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post that for me FCB.

I guess I don't see commenting on the stupidity of the first wave of FA signings and then following it up with "we aren't done yet" as a message of "we'll..we have to gowith what we got".

Anyway, off to the office christmas party. I'll be sure to bring back al the juice gossip for you.

I'm reading that article as of a piece with the Reds' FO's tack of bringing money front and center into the discussion--Lindner did it; Allen did it; and on the eve of the Winter Meetings, Cast is doing it. I'm just connecting some well-worn dots that's all.