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RFS62
11-29-2006, 07:39 AM
It looks like the Red Sox signing of Daisuke Matsuzaka has the Yankees scrambling to respond.

I'm not sure what metrics are applicable to project Japaneese players performance in MLB. I imagine traditional scouting methods carry more weight, especially when judging a pitchers stuff or a hitters stroke.

XM is discussing the deal, and they're implying that this guy is just a middle of the road pitcher, nothing exceptional like Matsuzaka.

The amounts being paid just for the right to negotiate are previously unthinkable. But MLB in general, and the Yankees and Red Sox in particular, are flush with cash and appear to understand that baseball truly is a global business venture, and you mine talent where you find it.

Most MLB teams already have a presence in Latin America. Looks like Japan and the far east will host the next gold rush.



Yankees Win Bidding for Igawa Rights for $25 Million, YES Says


By Mason Levinson

Nov. 28 (Bloomberg) -- The New York Yankees won the bidding for the right to negotiate with Japanese pitcher Kei Igawa with a $25 million offer, the Yankees Entertainment and Sports Network reported.

The Yankees will have exclusive negotiating rights for 30 days with the 27-year-old left-hander if his current team, the Hanshin Tigers, accepts the offer, the network reported, citing people from Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig's office that it didn't identify.

The Yankees would get the money back if they fail to reach an agreement with the player.

MLB will reveal the winning bid for Igawa, who was 14-9 with a 2.97 earned run average in 28 starts for the Japanese Central League club, tonight.

Yankees spokesman Ben Tuliebitz said the team won't know who won the bidding until the offers are revealed.

The Yankees lost a bid for Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka almost two weeks ago after the Boston Red Sox bid $51.1 million to negotiate with the right-hander of the Pacific League's Seibu Lions.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aKvBGBSe2imI&refer=japan

RedLegSuperStar
11-29-2006, 07:59 AM
Let the comparing begin..

Caveat Emperor
11-29-2006, 08:14 AM
Let the comparing begin..

Let the complaining begin.

A worldwide draft should've been implemented with the last CBA.

RedLegSuperStar
11-29-2006, 08:43 AM
Let the complaining begin.

A worldwide draft should've been implemented with the last CBA.

So true.. 51 mil and 26 mil on the rights to negotiate a contract are unreal. I would love to see these two turn out to be Hediki Irabu(sp?).

oneupper
11-29-2006, 09:00 AM
Let the complaining begin.

A worldwide draft should've been implemented with the last CBA.

About a third of ML players (Latin America, Japan and other Asia) are entering the system bypassing the draft system.
It's going to increase and could even become a deluge if the Cuban wall breaks down.

Totally nearsighted by MLB not to address this.

Chip R
11-29-2006, 09:21 AM
Let the complaining begin.

A worldwide draft should've been implemented with the last CBA.


Or the one before that. Still, I believe these teams should get some compensation for losing their players.

UKFlounder
11-29-2006, 09:32 AM
About a third of ML players (Latin America, Japan and other Asia) are entering the system bypassing the draft system.
It's going to increase and could even become a deluge if the Cuban wall breaks down.

Totally nearsighted by MLB not to address this.

Would the union go for it though? They would have to approve it, wouldn't they, and a worldwide draft would cost some of these players quite a bit of money.

I agree that MLB should try to implement it, but I'm not sure if they could have.

(Also, I wonder if we'll ever see a US player try to gain citizenship in one of these countries to try to bypass the draft. It would only work for a high-profile player, and they're already getting big bucks at the top of the draft, but I wonder if we'll ever come to that. I hope not.)

RFS62
11-29-2006, 09:33 AM
David Wright just was quoted regarding Igawa, when he saw him on the recent tour of Japan.... "he's got a slightly above average fastball, above average changeup, and his slider is kind of flat"

westofyou
11-29-2006, 09:50 AM
Let the complaining begin.

A worldwide draft should've been implemented with the last CBA.

I see an instinct for constraint(amongst the owners) but, we seem incapable of executing it.

As owner Roy Eisenhardt
2-18-1982

NJReds
11-29-2006, 09:59 AM
David Wright just was quoted regarding Igawa, when he saw him on the recent tour of Japan.... "he's got a slightly above average fastball, above average changeup, and his slider is kind of flat"

Although that was in an exhibition game. Hard to know if Igawa was cutting loose with his best stuff.

However, one scouting report that I saw said that he had a below average fastball, good curve and was reluctant to use his changeup as an 'out' pitch. Tops out at about 88 MPH. Tough on LH's and projected to be back of the rotation starter or a very good reliever.

RedLegSuperStar
11-29-2006, 10:13 AM
David Wright just was quoted regarding Igawa, when he saw him on the recent tour of Japan.... "he's got a slightly above average fastball, above average changeup, and his slider is kind of flat"

RF i just heard that too on XM radio.. classic quote.

RFS62
11-29-2006, 10:14 AM
Although that was in an exhibition game. Hard to know if Igawa was cutting loose with his best stuff.

However, one scouting report that I saw said that he had a below average fastball, good curve and was reluctant to use his changeup as an 'out' pitch. Tops out at about 88 MPH. Tough on LH's and projected to be back of the rotation starter or a very good reliever.



Yep. I haven't heard anyone say he's more than a back of the rotation starter.

$25 million to buy the rights to negotiate with a back of the rotation guy.

NJReds
11-29-2006, 10:36 AM
Yep. I haven't heard anyone say he's more than a back of the rotation starter.

$25 million to buy the rights to negotiate with a back of the rotation guy.

Well, Eaton got a big contract, and Lilly might get $10M+/yr. They're at best mid- to back-end of the rotation guys.

It's almost unreal how underpaid Arroyo is right now based on this market. It's got to keep him up at night.

RFS62
11-29-2006, 10:42 AM
Well, Eaton got a big contract, and Lilly might get $10M+/yr. They're at best mid- to back-end of the rotation guys.

It's almost unreal how underpaid Arroyo is right now based on this market. It's got to keep him up at night.



True, but the $25 million is the cost to negotiate, his salary will be over and above that.

NJReds
11-29-2006, 11:03 AM
True, but the $25 million is the cost to negotiate, his salary will be over and above that.

That's true. But the posting fee doesn't count against the luxury tax. Which is probably why teams like the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox are bidding so high.

According to the NY Daily News:


The Yankees would like to sign Igawa to a four-year deal worth $16 million-to-$17 million, a source said, and they view that total investment - the contract plus the posting fee - as what they'd have to pay for a free agent such as Ted Lilly. But the posting fee doesn't count against the luxury-tax threshold.

Caveat Emperor
11-29-2006, 11:07 AM
Also, I wonder if we'll ever see a US player try to gain citizenship in one of these countries to try to bypass the draft. It would only work for a high-profile player, and they're already getting big bucks at the top of the draft, but I wonder if we'll ever come to that. I hope not.

I'm pretty sure Alfonso Soriano tried that (and succeeded) back in 1998. He "retired" from the Japanese leagues at age 20, which made him immediately eligible to sign with a major league team without entering the draft or going through the "bidding" process.

He was able to negotiate his services to any interested team, and used that to sign a multi-million dollar deal with the Yankees as a result.

oneupper
11-29-2006, 11:19 AM
Would the union go for it though? They would have to approve it, wouldn't they, and a worldwide draft would cost some of these players quite a bit of money.

I agree that MLB should try to implement it, but I'm not sure if they could have.

(Also, I wonder if we'll ever see a US player try to gain citizenship in one of these countries to try to bypass the draft. It would only work for a high-profile player, and they're already getting big bucks at the top of the draft, but I wonder if we'll ever come to that. I hope not.)

This cuts both ways.

Nowadays, players signing on in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, among others, can be had for little money and at early age. Many of them would BENEFIT from going through a draft process.

As for International Free Agents, that's a different story. There you have the established Japanese and Korean players, along with Cuban defectors (who BTW defect to Costa Rica or some other country to AVOID the draft).
Hard to regulate...but something could be done, in the form of a fee for the team who makes the signing. MLB teams have to give up draft picks to sign MLB FA...but nothing for foreigners? Doesn't seem fair.

Lastly, you have the players who are still "owned" by other teams in other countries (such as Igawa). The IBF should probably take this up...as should the MLBPA, since you'd think it's only fair that the player be entitled to a portion of the transfer fee (as he is in soccer).

vaticanplum
11-29-2006, 05:24 PM
David Wright just was quoted regarding Igawa, when he saw him on the recent tour of Japan.... "he's got a slightly above average fastball, above average changeup, and his slider is kind of flat"

My understanding of his pitching is that he has very good stuff but he doesn't throw very hard. I am hoping that if he is smart, he can be molded into something better a la Mussina or Maddux.

Rojo
11-29-2006, 05:36 PM
Baseball needs to two more teams on the East Coast to cut down the Sox/Yanks.

vaticanplum
11-29-2006, 07:17 PM
Hottie Igawa playing with toys, courtesy of yanksfansoxfan.com via deadspin.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7KzVSA7eBY

I cannot wait to see this kid in New York.

George Foster
11-29-2006, 08:16 PM
Why do the Yankees feel like they have to get into a pissing contest with the Red Sox? They made the playoffs, Boston didn't. Seems like 25 million could pay for the first two years of Zito, no problem....stupid! This is a perfect example why Cashman is not a real GM....no budget. Anyone of us could put together a good team with 120 million plus, I promise you that.

vaticanplum
11-29-2006, 08:29 PM
Why do the Yankees feel like they have to get into a pissing contest with the Red Sox? They made the playoffs, Boston didn't. Seems like 25 million could pay for the first two years of Zito, no problem....stupid! This is a perfect example why Cashman is not a real GM....no budget. Anyone of us could put together a good team with 120 million plus, I promise you that.

There is talk that Zito doesn't want to come to New York. And the Yanks desparately need to upgrade their pitching.

Being a GM involves dealing with more than money. It involves dealing with people and logistics and the quality of an organization from top to bottom, squillions of dollars to nothing, all over the country. Cashman has had a long tenure as a GM with a very difficult boss. He's gone through stages of development with this team and has had to work through his own desires and his boss's desires which sometimes do not mesh (though we'll never know how much, as Cashman himself is respectably tight-lipped about it). He's dealt with everything from a young team to an old team to a winning team to a losing team and having a very good farm system and having a horrible farm system and then trying to get a bit of the good one back. He hasn't been showy and he's made mistakes, but he's proved himself at least mildly capable of just about everything.

I respect him a lot. Sure, he has money to spend, but he still has one of the toughest jobs in baseball. A hundred million people breathing down his back at all times and I've never seen him lose his cool. And he manages to make concessions when he needs to and stick to his guns when he needs to. He will never be regarded as one of the great or creative GMs in baseball, but he's done a quietly fine job in that position for longer than most human beings could take. I actually think that his good qualities are rather unsung.

Reds Nd2
11-29-2006, 10:34 PM
Hideo Nomo was the first player to "retire" from his Japanese league team in 1994. He then come out of retirement to sign a two million dollar contract with the Dodgers. Alfonso Soriano, using agent Don Nomura, the same agent employed by Nomo interestingly enough, "retired" following the 1997 season.

Two years later a system that requires players, with less than ten years of service time, to be posted by the teams that control their rights was in place. This insures teams will get compensation if they lose their players to the U.S. major leagues. It doesn't just pertain to Japanese players either. All players, unless it's specifically written into their contracts, regardless of nationality are subject to the posting system.

In yet another first for our beloved Red Stockings, they were the first team to sign a player under the new posting system when they signed Alejandro Quezada from the Hiroshima Carp in 1999 for the princely sum of $400,401.00 Now known as Alejandro Diaz, he played five seasons in the Reds farm system, never advancing past Chattanooga despite spending four seasons there.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/9/9f/Diazalejandro.jpg

vaticanplum
11-29-2006, 10:37 PM
Am I correct in understanding that if the player chooses not to sign with the American team, the team does not have to pay the money? ie. the team will not "lose" this money flat-out, though it goes to the Japanese team and not back into the player's salary.

Reds Nd2
11-29-2006, 10:51 PM
Am I correct in understanding that if the player chooses not to sign with the American team, the team does not have to pay the money? ie. the team will not "lose" this money flat-out, though it goes to the Japanese team and not back into the player's salary.

No money has been paid as of yet. If the player does not sign, the money for the winning bid stays with the U.S. club. If the player does sign a contract, the U.S. club has five business days, from the confirmation of terms with the MLBPA if the player signs a major league contract or reporting the terms to the U.S. Commisioner's Office if it's a minor league contract, to pay the winning bid to the players former team.

Caveat Emperor
11-30-2006, 02:56 AM
Why do the Yankees feel like they have to get into a pissing contest with the Red Sox?

Because the media up there, especially in New York, is so brutal and has so much space to fill that it would eventually get spun into a story that the Yankees aren't keeping pace with the Red Sox.

Yankee fans and Yankee ownership expect Cashman to be 1 step ahead of the Sox. The minute they think he isn't, or that he's holding back, is the minute that Cashman loses control of the situation up there.

A byproduct of too much space to fill in too much media and a situation where losing is genuinely not tolerated.

NJReds
11-30-2006, 09:11 AM
This signing makes some sense for the Yankees if you consider that the posting fee doesn't count toward the luxury tax. IF they sign this pitcher in the neighborhood of the 4 yrs - $15M that's being reported, then it's probably about the same that Lilly will cost. Now, is he the same level as Lilly? That's to be determined. Bobby V likes him...says he can be a workhorse-type middle rotation guy. Time will tell.

From all I've heard and read about Zito, he's "Exhibit A" of a guy who will struggle in NY. The Yankees have been down that road before, and I don't think they'll tread there again. In fact, any interest Zito might show in going to NY is probably posturing by Boras to drive up his price.

The Mets may sign him, but with his old pitching coach (Peterson) and a switch to the NL, that makes a lot more sense. I still think he ends up in the NL West (Pads or Dodgers).