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Will M
11-29-2006, 06:07 PM
What is with all the negativity? It seems like 10-20% of posters have realistic expectations of what 2007+ will bring and 80-90% of posters are serious 'negative Nellies'. Whine. *****. Moan. Lament. 200 posts each time we sign a vet to be an emergancy backup in AAA.

The Reds have gone in ONE year from being in the same class as the Pirates or Royals to being on the verge of contending for the playoffs.
Our 80-82 season wasn't great but it was a step in the right direction.
We are building a solid team. Not just to sniff the playoffs once every five years but a team that can contend yearly.

Yes we need another couple pitchers ( don't most teams ) but look at what we DO have:
A solid 1-2 punch of Arroyo & Harang.
The #1 pitching prospect in baseball waiting to join the rotation.
Four young relievers & 2 vets to help stabilize the pen for 2007.
Votto, Phillips, EE, Dunn & Deno are all young.
Bruce ( another top ten prospect ) will arrive in 2008 or 2009.
The low levels of the farm system are well stocked.

Krisky has NOT taken on any awful contracts that will cripple us going forward. Milton is gone after 2007. Griffey after 2008.

Krisky has NOT traded a single top prospect.

Folks the future is bright. Cheer up! :)

Patrick Bateman
11-29-2006, 06:15 PM
200 posts each time we sign a vet to be an emergancy backup in AAA.



You have missed the point of everyone's complaining about the Moeller move.

Based on the reports, it doesn't seem that he was signed to be an emergency back-up in AAA. If that were the case, few would have a problem with it since it would be a ho-hum move that every organization does during the off-season.

However, it seems that he was given a major league contract, guaranteeing him in the neighborhood of $500,000. Is it a big deal? No, but he's basically a useless player that deserves no better than a MLC, not a guaranteed deal, especially when we already have 2 catchers on the big league club.

Generally you are right, this board can be a tad melodramatic sometimes (understatement of the year), but if you are going to instegate what will likely be a pissing match, I suggest you get all your facts straight.

jimbo
11-29-2006, 06:28 PM
However, it seems that he was given a major league contract, guaranteeing him in the neighborhood of $500,000. Is it a big deal? No, but he's basically a useless player that deserves no better than a MLC, not a guaranteed deal, especially when we already have 2 catchers on the big league club.

Generally you are right, this board can be a tad melodramatic sometimes (understatement of the year), but if you are going to instegate what will likely be a pissing match, I suggest you get all your facts straight.

Not to start a pissing match, but you are implying that your opinion is a fact and suggesting to the original poster that he should get those "facts" straight before posting. I think we are all entitled to our opinion, but implying that a personal opinion is a fact is what gets pissing matches started here.

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 06:29 PM
It seems like 10-20% of posters have realistic expectations of what 2007+

I am not clear on what the realistic expectations are for those 10-20%.

Patrick Bateman
11-29-2006, 06:31 PM
Not to start a pissing match, but you are implying that your opinion is a fact and suggesting to the original poster that he should get those "facts" straight before posting. I think we are all entitled to our opinion, but implying that a personal opinion is a fact is what gets pissing matches started here.

Well everything that I read suggests that he was given a major league contract, and that's not what Will M said at all. That's the reason everyone is angry at the Moeller signing. The fact is, he was not signed to be a "back-up emergency catcher in AAA", not the opinion that he is useless.

Will M
11-29-2006, 06:34 PM
For 2007: The Reds will field a decent team. Not great. Not terrible.

For 2008: Bailey, Votto & maybe Bruce in the majors the team starts their yearly playoff quests. Plus Milton is off the books.

For 2009: Other prospects ( currently in the low minors ) start arriving. Plus Griffey is off the books.

Patrick Bateman
11-29-2006, 06:39 PM
For 2007: The Reds will field a decent team. Not great. Not terrible.

For 2008: Bailey, Votto & maybe Bruce in the majors the team starts their yearly playoff quests. Plus Milton is off the books.

For 2009: Other prospects ( currently in the low minors ) start arriving. Plus Griffey is off the books.

This is all assuming Bruce, Votto, and Bailey all reach their ceilings. For the Reds to be yearly play-off contenders, those 3 players will have to be awfully good. They have the potential, but the odds are that they all wont be the superstars they are cracked up to be.

harangatang
11-29-2006, 06:40 PM
What is with all the negativity? It seems like 10-20% of posters have realistic expectations of what 2007+ will bring and 80-90% of posters are serious 'negative Nellies'. Whine. *****. Moan. Lament. 200 posts each time we sign a vet to be an emergancy backup in AAA.

The Reds have gone in ONE year from being in the same class as the Pirates or Royals to being on the verge of contending for the playoffs.
Our 80-82 season wasn't great but it was a step in the right direction.
We are building a solid team. Not just to sniff the playoffs once every five years but a team that can contend yearly.

Yes we need another couple pitchers ( don't most teams ) but look at what we DO have:
A solid 1-2 punch of Arroyo & Harang.
The #1 pitching prospect in baseball waiting to join the rotation.
Four young relievers & 2 vets to help stabilize the pen for 2007.
Votto, Phillips, EE, Dunn & Deno are all young.
Bruce ( another top ten prospect ) will arrive in 2008 or 2009.
The low levels of the farm system are well stocked.

Krisky has NOT taken on any awful contracts that will cripple us going forward. Milton is gone after 2007. Griffey after 2008.

Krisky has NOT traded a single top prospect.

Folks the future is bright. Cheer up! :)
I understand your point of view and I mean no harm but it scares me. When you make statements like the Reds went 80-82 in 2006 while you aren't mistaken it is VERY misleading. The Reds played way above their heads in 2006 and using the Pythagorean W-L the Reds should've finished at 76-86. Given the fact that the NL was weakest it will probably ever be and that the Reds need to either add or subtract 50 runs to get to .500 it's nothing but a mirage. Not to mention the fact that Krivsky has shown terrible player evaluations whether it be with the draft or with trades. I'm truthfully a realist and the future is not looking pretty unless Krivsky can find 2 Johan Santana's on the Rule 5 Draft this year. To make an analogy this year for the Reds is like a mirage of Lake Superior in the middle of Death Valley. The casual Reds fan is like a person who would sell all their possessions to capitalize on an opportunity to find out when you get there it's nothing but sand. Next year you'll be back with a thread and blame on the team's problems on Adam Dunn (if he isn't traded straight up for a slick-fielding utility man) or something else trivial when the problems are much deeper. I think one of the biggest problems with society is inability to accept the truth. If you choose not to accept the truth now, you'll be forced come the 2007 season.

RedsManRick
11-29-2006, 06:42 PM
Gimme my pills!

Johnny Footstool
11-29-2006, 06:44 PM
For 2007: The Reds will field a decent team. Not great. Not terrible.

For 2008: Bailey, Votto & maybe Bruce in the majors the team starts their yearly playoff quests. Plus Milton is off the books.

For 2009: Other prospects ( currently in the low minors ) start arriving. Plus Griffey is off the books.

Dunn and Arroyo will also be "off the books" and Harang will finish his arb years and be ready for free agency after 2008.

You should factor those items into your realistic expectations.

Redny
11-29-2006, 06:49 PM
Virtually all message boards are negative. Anytime I want to know the possible negatives of a deal or signing I check the boards. If I want a worse case scenario I check the boards. If I am frustrated with how the team is going I check the boards to prepare me for how much more may go wrong. If the team is doing well and I need to be reminded that it won't last I check the boards. For the most part it helps me deal with my overly optimistic view of things and keeps me from expecting too much of the Reds.

registerthis
11-29-2006, 06:49 PM
For 2007: The Reds will field a decent team. Not great. Not terrible.

I don't consider any team who finishes under .500 to be "decent." And to this point, the Reds haven't improved at all from 2006. What is leading you to believe that they will be better?

westofyou
11-29-2006, 06:51 PM
RedsZone members need prozac

IMO Xanax would be more fun.

M2
11-29-2006, 07:01 PM
Threads where folks note that Redszone has spent too much time on something having to do with the Reds or baseball is where I trot out the old saw that Redszone is for people who want to talk too much about stuff having to do with the Reds or baseball.

If you don't want to read a cell-by-cell dissection of all things having to do with the Chad Moeller signing then don't open the ever expanding Chad Moeller thread. We're not just fans. We're fanatics. We care more. I'd worry if the Reds made a move and it passed with barely any comment.

Will M
11-29-2006, 07:12 PM
The signing of Moeller is not the point of my post. The point of my post is that pessimism runs rampant on RedsZone. Why? What happened to the day when Reds fans dreamed about the BEST case scenarios developing and not the worst? Is it because of years of ineptitude? Is it self selection based on who hangs out of message boards? why is everyone so down on the Reds?

harangatang
11-29-2006, 07:21 PM
The signing of Moeller is not the point of my post. The point of my post is that pessimism runs rampant on RedsZone. Why? What happened to the day when Reds fans dreamed about the BEST case scenarios developing and not the worst? Is it because of years of ineptitude? Is it self selection based on who hangs out of message boards? why is everyone so down on the Reds?If you don't like the attitude here then my response is to find another message board that suits your needs. Or you could start a blog stating your opinions on the Reds. The reason people on Reds Zone are negative is because the Reds make negative moves which result in a horrible team.

MrCinatit
11-29-2006, 07:25 PM
Sorry, I thought this was the line for Viagra.

TOBTTReds
11-29-2006, 07:35 PM
I am not clear on what the realistic expectations are for those 10-20%.

Winning the Super Bowl...duh.

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 07:50 PM
Winning the Super Bowl...duh.

Oh, Oh....that concept went right over my head for some reason....;)

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 07:52 PM
The point of my post is that pessimism runs rampant on RedsZone. Why?

Some people simply just enjoy the game and they are not as concerned as much as others are if the Reds have a good product on the field or not, so they can voice that optimistic expressiveness. Some run on strictly hope or accept all of the positive spin bites that the Reds put out.

I don’t think that the fans on Redszone only tend to see the worst or only the negative.
Many of them are academic or professional management type personalities (Reds fans really are not void of thought) and they tend to be solution oriented, attempt to accurately analyze and problem solve.

I believe that they are trying to be realistic in regards to their pro’s and cons regarding the Reds organization. It would be false or erroneous for them to always take the high road, pretentious for them to communicate that all is well with the Reds and that the Reds competition also is a non-starter in the issues of competitive sports.

Many more spend hours in giving us statistical analysis and comparisons, though there are deviations and variances that might come up over a given season, the ones that give us stat feedback are not going to be very far off, so without certain improvements the Reds are going to struggle regardless of what Castellini, Krivsky or Narron spin, it is those gentlemen’s job to have a vision and to get the people to buy into it while they attempt to achieve their goals and objectives over time.

You will see positive feedback from the fans when the Reds front office does something that really can be weighed and measured as an upgrade to the team.

Will M
11-29-2006, 08:05 PM
Some people simply just enjoy the game and they are not as concerned as much as others are if the Reds have a good product on the field or not, so they can voice that optimistic expressiveness. Some run on strictly hope or accept all of the positive spin bites that the Reds put out.

I donít think that the fans on Redszone only tend to see the worst or only the negative.
Many of them are academic or professional management type personalities (Reds fans really are not void of thought) and they tend to be solution oriented, attempt to accurately analyze and problem solve.

I believe that they are trying to be realistic in regards to their proís and cons regarding the Reds organization. It would be false or erroneous for them to always take the high road, pretentious for them to communicate that all is well with the Reds and that the Reds competition also is a non-starter in the issues of competitive sports.

Many more spend hours in giving us statistical analysis and comparisons, though there are deviations and variances that might come up over a given season, the ones that give us stat feedback are not going to be very far off, so without certain improvements the Reds are going to struggle regardless of what Castellini, Krivsky or Narron spin, it is those gentlemenís job to have a vision and to get the people to buy into it while they attempt to achieve their goals and objectives over time.

You will see positive feedback from the fans when the Reds front office does something that really can be weighed and measured as an upgrade to the team.


Upgrades to the team ( off the top of my head ):

Arroyo for WMP

Phillips for nothing

Ross, Hatteberg, Lohse, Guadaro, & Schowenweis for nothing or next to nothing.

Re-signing Hat & Valentin to cheap contracts before the nutty offseason started.

Falls City Beer
11-29-2006, 08:07 PM
Upgrades to the team ( off the top of my head ):

Arroyo for WMP

Phillips for nothing

Ross, Hatteberg, Lohse, Guadaro, & Schowenweis for nothing or next to nothing.

Re-signing Hat & Valentin to cheap contracts before the nutty offseason started.

You remember Jim Bowden, right?

He was great at dumpster diving. But, if you'll remember, he couldn't find those centerpiece deals that truly put a team over the top.

Natty Redlocks
11-29-2006, 08:18 PM
The signing of Moeller is not the point of my post. The point of my post is that pessimism runs rampant on RedsZone. Why? What happened to the day when Reds fans dreamed about the BEST case scenarios developing and not the worst? Is it because of years of ineptitude? Is it self selection based on who hangs out of message boards? why is everyone so down on the Reds?

Because the offense was supposed to be their strength and it fell apart last year. Because now instead of adding pitching to our great offense, we're basically starting all over, which frankly sucks. Because we're all used to thinking of Adam Dunn as a franchise hitter. Now we're not so sure he's even worth what he's getting now, much less what he'll get next year. Because we finally have an ownership that seems committed to winning and willing to spend a little money but there are no good players in our price range to spend it on because the market has gone crazy. Because two more years of watching the organization kiss Gimpy Diva's *ss is gonna suck. Because teams like the Cubs can just throw money at people to fill their holes and we can't. Because our farm system has a few great prospects but no real depth. Did I mention the offense fell apart last year? I think I'm gonna go kick my dog now.

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 08:19 PM
You remember Jim Bowden, right?

He was great at dumpster diving. But, if you'll remember, he couldn't find those centerpiece deals that truly put a team over the top.

Good point because Jim is the one that really put the negativity in me. I use to suck in, really soak up everything he said, loved what he was saying for years, again and again, until one day it dawned on me that the Reds weren't accomplishing what his fine wonderful communication skills implied to my longing ears.

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 08:38 PM
Upgrades to the team ( off the top of my head ):

Arroyo for WMP

Phillips for nothing

Ross, Hatteberg, Lohse, Guadaro, & Schowenweis for nothing or next to nothing.

Re-signing Hat & Valentin to cheap contracts before the nutty offseason started.

Everyone has different value judgments and some of us donít see a below .500 record for the sixth straight season and those upgrades that brought us last years below .500 team that you speak to as being adequate in a situational, volatile and ever changing competitive environment on and off the field such as the Reds are involved in to date. I guess we just canít see how without cash and without player resources to trade that he will be able to achieve the goals that he and Mr. Castillini have visualized and verbally presented in the near future.

Consider also that most of us have fully considered the optimist position year after year regarding the Reds over the past six years and found it wanting at the end of every season and want real change this time. Real change meaning a team that wins more than it loses.

westofyou
11-29-2006, 08:39 PM
You remember Jim Bowden, right?

He was great at dumpster diving. But, if you'll remember, he couldn't find those centerpiece deals that truly put a team over the top.

Bowden had 10 years, Krivsky's had 10 months.

The comparison is a tad unfair.

Always Red
11-29-2006, 08:41 PM
IMO Xanax would be more fun.

Ativan is even better.

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 08:43 PM
Ativan is even better.

Wait until July, most likely everyone will need Vicodine or take up needle point :bang:

Always Red
11-29-2006, 08:49 PM
Wait until July, most likely everyone will need Vicodine or take up needle point :bang:

or just go straight to the needle...:cool:

naah, after I got all depressed yesterday, I decided I was going to be more optimistic about the Reds today. But still, I came back here anyway...:laugh:

WMR
11-29-2006, 08:50 PM
This off-season so far is making me feel like I've taken a couple Ambien.

RFS62
11-29-2006, 08:51 PM
http://www.eworld24.de/fileserver/GetFile?name=alPiLLWsb1rAoGfGWBzBEd-30&mime=image/jpeg

Always Red
11-29-2006, 08:51 PM
This off-season so far is making me feel like I've taken a couple Ambien.

"you vill start to feel veeerrryy sleeepy now"

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 08:53 PM
or just go straight to the needle...:cool:

naah, after I got all depressed yesterday, I decided I was going to be more optimistic about the Reds today. But still, I came back here anyway...:laugh:

This is the best place to come to get good information on the Reds. There are alot of informative people who post here. (of course I am not one :( ) but there are many.

KoryMac5
11-29-2006, 09:07 PM
This is the best place to come to get good information on the Reds. There are alot of informative people who post here. (of course I am not one :( ) but there are many.

That was a big reason I signed up for the board. You never can find enough news on the Reds on ESPN or SI except for a couple of words every few months. I need more than that, most members of the boards are very well informed and educated fans. Being an educated fan means that we have enough knowledge about baseball to know it is going to take a few years to put a winner on the field. Some fans are excited about this team, others are disappointed in the direction. Thats what makes this board what it is today a great way to voice your opinion. If the pessimism bothers some just weed through it and move on to the next opinion.

Caveat Emperor
11-29-2006, 09:19 PM
The signing of Moeller is not the point of my post. The point of my post is that pessimism runs rampant on RedsZone. Why? What happened to the day when Reds fans dreamed about the BEST case scenarios developing and not the worst? Is it because of years of ineptitude? Is it self selection based on who hangs out of message boards? why is everyone so down on the Reds?

There's a difference between being a fan and blindly following wherever management and the club choose to lead.

Besides, it'd be boring as hell if everyone just talked about best case scenarios instead of reality.


Poster 1: How do you guys think Eric Milton is going to do this year?

Poster 2: Well, if his meniscus re-grows and his knee stops degenerating, I think you could possibly pencil him in for about 20 wins.

Poster 1: Awesome, he'll make a great #3 until Elizardo Ramirez learns to put movement on his fastball -- I'm betting that happens in spring training.

Will M
11-29-2006, 09:33 PM
There's a difference between being a fan and blindly following wherever management and the club choose to lead.

Besides, it'd be boring as hell if everyone just talked about best case scenarios instead of reality.

But no one is talking best case scenarios.

And many ( most? ) posters version of 'reality' is very pessimistic.

vaticanplum
11-29-2006, 09:42 PM
Poster 1: Awesome, he'll make a great #3 until Elizardo Ramirez learns to put movement on his fastball -- I'm betting that happens in spring training.

Hott

Spring~Fields
11-29-2006, 10:12 PM
But no one is talking best case scenarios.

And many ( most? ) posters version of 'reality' is very pessimistic.

Johnny Footstool was speaking best case scenarios today on that one thread, well, at least I interpreted it as such.

If they have done statistical analysis then they have support to believe that the team will do poorly, they are not speaking from their emotions.

Otherwise,

We are Reds fans we want to believe.

We are just waiting for that one additional pitcher, that one offensive bat that can impact a difference in the outcome of number of games over the course of a season.

I think that some misinterpret our frustration or concern, our passionate reactions, perhaps unrealistic expectations and desire for the Reds and their individual players to have outstanding seasons as being anti-Reds, anti-Krivsky, anti-Castellini, anti-Dunn or Griffey etc. When nothing could be further from the truth. We are for the Reds not against them.

wheels
11-29-2006, 10:25 PM
Some people simply just enjoy the game and they are not as concerned as much as others are if the Reds have a good product on the field or not, so they can voice that optimistic expressiveness. Some run on strictly hope or accept all of the positive spin bites that the Reds put out.

I donít think that the fans on Redszone only tend to see the worst or only the negative.
Many of them are academic or professional management type personalities (Reds fans really are not void of thought) and they tend to be solution oriented, attempt to accurately analyze and problem solve.

I believe that they are trying to be realistic in regards to their proís and cons regarding the Reds organization. It would be false or erroneous for them to always take the high road, pretentious for them to communicate that all is well with the Reds and that the Reds competition also is a non-starter in the issues of competitive sports.

Many more spend hours in giving us statistical analysis and comparisons, though there are deviations and variances that might come up over a given season, the ones that give us stat feedback are not going to be very far off, so without certain improvements the Reds are going to struggle regardless of what Castellini, Krivsky or Narron spin, it is those gentlemenís job to have a vision and to get the people to buy into it while they attempt to achieve their goals and objectives over time.

You will see positive feedback from the fans when the Reds front office does something that really can be weighed and measured as an upgrade to the team.

Outstanding post.

I agree with every word.

vaticanplum
11-29-2006, 10:32 PM
I'm willing to take on the scientific study of the effects of a World Series title in comparison to the effects of Prozac. I'll even throw in a control group of anti-medication Cubs fans averse to both Prozac and World Series titles for well-rounded analysis. Donations welcome.

Redhook
11-30-2006, 12:28 AM
But no one is talking best case scenarios.



Best case for 2007 is a team that plays over it's head and finishes at or below .500. Sound familiar? Unfortunately, the Reds are lacking talent in many areas and it'll be awhile before it can be sufficiently fixed. As of right now, I'm moderately optimistic about 2008, but I don't see how any Reds fan can be optimistic about making the playoffs in 2007.

M2
11-30-2006, 01:42 AM
But no one is talking best case scenarios.

And many ( most? ) posters version of 'reality' is very pessimistic.

Reality is the Red are in a tight spot and that trade this summer only served to make the spot tighter.

That said, I see plenty of posters chomping at the bit for the Reds to make some moves which completely alter the stars of this team. Now I don't know that the club can do anything to match Denny Neagle, Greg Vaughn and Mike Cameron coming through the door, but I've seen a pile of people getting behind the notion that the Reds could do something dramatic (even if those posters doubt the franchise will).

My take is it's the Reds who hold the power to unleash fan optimism. Folks around here, at least a decent chunk of them, aren't going to bite on Eric Milton/Ramon Ortiz moves (some never bit in the first place, others won't be fooled again), but if the Reds bring in some quality players, I guarantee you that the buzz around here will be deafening. Reds fans have been starved for moves like that and if we reach a point where an objective person can sit down and say, "Hey, this team looks to be pretty good," then the cork is going to pop off of this board.

Pretending the Reds might be good is tawdry replacement for the confidence that the Reds are good. We've seen plenty of the former this century. Yet if club can make the moves to stir up the latter, then watch out. People here are plenty of things: impatient, discerning, frustrated, wary and steadfast among them. What they aren't is pessimistic. People may doubt whether the front office will put this club over the hump, but good luck finding many folks who think it absolutely, positively can't be done. They know what empty optimism looks and feels like.

What I think you're seeing is that people have a pent up desire for this team to win and what they're looking over the horizon for is some justifiable optimism.

wheels
11-30-2006, 01:51 AM
If Wayne goes out and signs Tomo Ohka and Craig Wilson, he'll have won back my trust.

Those are two very doable things.

He doesn't even need to get creative, I don't ask for much.

WVRedsFan
11-30-2006, 03:00 AM
Sorry, I thought this was the line for Viagra.

It's not??? Dang...

Ron Madden
11-30-2006, 06:07 AM
Reality is the Red are in a tight spot and that trade this summer only served to make the spot tighter.

That said, I see plenty of posters chomping at the bit for the Reds to make some moves which completely alter the stars of this team. Now I don't know that the club can do anything to match Denny Neagle, Greg Vaughn and Mike Cameron coming through the door, but I've seen a pile of people getting behind the notion that the Reds could do something dramatic (even if those posters doubt the franchise will).

My take is it's the Reds who hold the power to unleash fan optimism. Folks around here, at least a decent chunk of them, aren't going to bite on Eric Milton/Ramon Ortiz moves (some never bit in the first place, others won't be fooled again), but if the Reds bring in some quality players, I guarantee you that the buzz around here will be deafening. Reds fans have been starved for moves like that and if we reach a point where an objective person can sit down and say, "Hey, this team looks to be pretty good," then the cork is going to pop off of this board.

Pretending the Reds might be good is tawdry replacement for the confidence that the Reds are good. We've seen plenty of the former this century. Yet if club can make the moves to stir up the latter, then watch out. People here are plenty of things: impatient, discerning, frustrated, wary and steadfast among them. What they aren't is pessimistic. People may doubt whether the front office will put this club over the hump, but good luck finding many folks who think it absolutely, positively can't be done. They know what empty optimism looks and feels like.

What I think you're seeing is that people have a pent up desire for this team to win and what they're looking over the horizon for is some justifiable optimism.

Very well said M2 :beerme:

mth123
11-30-2006, 06:34 AM
Reality is the Red are in a tight spot and that trade this summer only served to make the spot tighter.

That said, I see plenty of posters chomping at the bit for the Reds to make some moves which completely alter the stars of this team. Now I don't know that the club can do anything to match Denny Neagle, Greg Vaughn and Mike Cameron coming through the door, but I've seen a pile of people getting behind the notion that the Reds could do something dramatic (even if those posters doubt the franchise will).

My take is it's the Reds who hold the power to unleash fan optimism. Folks around here, at least a decent chunk of them, aren't going to bite on Eric Milton/Ramon Ortiz moves (some never bit in the first place, others won't be fooled again), but if the Reds bring in some quality players, I guarantee you that the buzz around here will be deafening. Reds fans have been starved for moves like that and if we reach a point where an objective person can sit down and say, "Hey, this team looks to be pretty good," then the cork is going to pop off of this board.

Pretending the Reds might be good is tawdry replacement for the confidence that the Reds are good. We've seen plenty of the former this century. Yet if club can make the moves to stir up the latter, then watch out. People here are plenty of things: impatient, discerning, frustrated, wary and steadfast among them. What they aren't is pessimistic. People may doubt whether the front office will put this club over the hump, but good luck finding many folks who think it absolutely, positively can't be done. They know what empty optimism looks and feels like.

What I think you're seeing is that people have a pent up desire for this team to win and what they're looking over the horizon for is some justifiable optimism.

Not much else to say. Good post.

RFS62
11-30-2006, 07:34 AM
Very nice post, M2

Will M
11-30-2006, 09:58 AM
Reality is the Red are in a tight spot and that trade this summer only served to make the spot tighter.

That said, I see plenty of posters chomping at the bit for the Reds to make some moves which completely alter the stars of this team. Now I don't know that the club can do anything to match Denny Neagle, Greg Vaughn and Mike Cameron coming through the door, but I've seen a pile of people getting behind the notion that the Reds could do something dramatic (even if those posters doubt the franchise will).

My take is it's the Reds who hold the power to unleash fan optimism. Folks around here, at least a decent chunk of them, aren't going to bite on Eric Milton/Ramon Ortiz moves (some never bit in the first place, others won't be fooled again), but if the Reds bring in some quality players, I guarantee you that the buzz around here will be deafening. Reds fans have been starved for moves like that and if we reach a point where an objective person can sit down and say, "Hey, this team looks to be pretty good," then the cork is going to pop off of this board.

Pretending the Reds might be good is tawdry replacement for the confidence that the Reds are good. We've seen plenty of the former this century. Yet if club can make the moves to stir up the latter, then watch out. People here are plenty of things: impatient, discerning, frustrated, wary and steadfast among them. What they aren't is pessimistic. People may doubt whether the front office will put this club over the hump, but good luck finding many folks who think it absolutely, positively can't be done. They know what empty optimism looks and feels like.

What I think you're seeing is that people have a pent up desire for this team to win and what they're looking over the horizon for is some justifiable optimism.

I hope you are right.

However, I wonder what it will take to make some people happy. Looking at this years free agent class outside of a couple of starting pitchers there wasn't/isn't much to really help the Reds. No stud relievers. Only two shortstops ( and we signed one ). Assuming WK signs someone like Craig Wilson ( or re signs Aurillia ) and a starting pitcher I will be satisfied with the offseason. However I think a lot of posters won't.
The Reds ARE a small market team. Krisky's plan to build a team like the Twins is realistic. Signing Zito for 7 years & 105 million dollars isn't.

You said " if the Reds bring in some quality players ". Again, in ONE year we have added Arroyo, Phillips and several other solid role players.
Our defense is better. Our pitching is better. Offensively we are worse but defense and pitching is what wins. Overall I think the Reds as of today are MUCH better than one year ago. And yet the unhappy posters outnumber the happy posters by a wide margin. It puzzles me.

westofyou
11-30-2006, 11:11 AM
Offensively we are worse but defense and pitching is what wins.Not true, a combination of offense, defense and pitching win.

There is no way that the offense (which comprises at least 50% of the game) is not as important as the other two aspects. You shouldn't turn your back on any part of the game, all three aspects work together, ignore one and that will be your weakness.

Team Clark
11-30-2006, 11:32 AM
Not true, a combination of offense, defense and pitching win.

There is no way that the offense (which comprises at least 50% of the game) is not as important as the other two aspects. You shouldn't turn your back on any part of the game, all three aspects work together, ignore one and that will be your weakness.

True overall but in certain spots Pitching and Defense can win you games. This past WS gave us a peek at that. Certainly you can't win games without ANY offense even if it's 4 consecutive walks. Then again what is the measure of "offense" 3 runs? 5 runs? If you only give up 2 then scoring 3 is "providing" the offense IMO. Just WIN!

M2
11-30-2006, 11:35 AM
Assuming WK signs someone like Craig Wilson ( or re signs Aurillia ) and a starting pitcher I will be satisfied with the offseason. However I think a lot of posters won't.

It would depend on who the starting pitcher is. For instance, if he signs a guy who'll be a bad starting pitcher, then I won't be the least bit happy with it. I worry about whether Wilson will be able to thrive in Cincinnati because the club will require him to cut his hair, thus draining his strength in Samson-like fashion.

Though I'll note that the offseason isn't only a free agent signing period. There's the matter of trades and that's where Krivsky has to score. If Krivsky can't make progress there then significant progress probably isn't in the offing. It's not just Krivsky, it's the challenge facing anybody who wants to be GM of the Reds. You don't have unlimited cash to fill all your holes through name free agents and you don't have enough talent on the farm either. I mentioned Neagle, Vaughn and Cameron above. JimBo landed all of those guys in trades. If the Reds want to take a bold step forward, Krivsky's got to figure out a way to do something like that.


The Reds ARE a small market team. Krisky's plan to build a team like the Twins is realistic. Signing Zito for 7 years & 105 million dollars isn't.

The Twins went through eight years in the weeds before their plan bore any fruit. I'll go out on a limb and say that there isn't a single person here willing to extend the next time the Reds really matter out to 2013 or so. Beyond that, I see no indication that Bob Castellini is willing to go through it. Krivsky, if he wants to keep his job, probably has the next two seasons to deliver a winner.

As for what the Reds can do, I maintain they're like Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz." The power to be a better franchise has been inside them the whole time. What the Reds can realistically do is bounded in large part by what they're willing to do. There's nothing stopping from making a big financial move if they think that player could be critical to the team's baseball prospects. Businesses redefine themselves all the time. Dunkin' Donuts serves more bagels than donuts.

Offering $51M to negotiate with Daisuke Matsuzaka supposedly wasn't realistic for the Red Sox. Yet they determined that in baseball terms he was the guy they most wanted and then they considered the business opportunity Matsuzaka could present them (the chance to break into a brand new market). Could the right big dollar move change the business for the Reds? I think it could. I'm not saying that Barry Zito is that move, because I don't want to turn this into a Barry Zito thread, but I say the Reds could break their self-imposed small market shackles anytime they wish.


You said " if the Reds bring in some quality players ". Again, in ONE year we have added Arroyo, Phillips and several other solid role players.
Our defense is better. Our pitching is better. Offensively we are worse but defense and pitching is what wins. Overall I think the Reds as of today are MUCH better than one year ago. And yet the unhappy posters outnumber the happy posters by a wide margin. It puzzles me.

I agree they're in a better place than a year ago. I also think they're worse off then six months ago. I don't have a lot of use for the truism that pitching and defense win games. Playing good baseball wins games. The Reds needed improvement in pitching (still do) and defense (which right now hinges on whether Jr. will be allowed to set foot in CF). Now they could use some help on the stick side of things too, 1B being the most obvious spot for an upgrade.

You say unhappy posters, I still say impatient. Folks are eager for better days to arrive. After six losing seasons I can hardly blame them. In the end analysis, we have to wait for the Reds to make their moves. We've got no control over when those will go down. That people are aching for something better strikes me as a pretty healthy reaction, though. That is an optimistic point of view, believing the Reds can march forward. We just don't know whether it's going to happen and until it does the natives will be restless.

westofyou
11-30-2006, 11:39 AM
True overall but in certain spots Pitching and Defense can win you games. This past WS gave us a peek at that. Certainly you can't win games without ANY offense even if it's 4 consecutive walks. Then again what is the measure of "offense" 3 runs? 5 runs? If you only give up 2 then scoring 3 is "providing" the offense IMO. Just WIN!

I never said they couldn't win you games.

The adage that they are all you need to win falls short.

27 outs for your team to give up, the measure for what passes as offense should be at least league average over the course of the season. Have a below average offense and then you struggle even if you have pitching and defense.

The Reds 1940-1950 were a fine example of that, Just win? Of course that's the key... but like baking it's easier said then done and is more science then poetry.

Team Clark
11-30-2006, 11:52 AM
I never said they couldn't win you games.

The adage that they are all you need to win falls short.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. You have to score runs to win. Period. I think that a lot of people use that addage because they have heard it before. It really breaks down to this: The better pitching you have they fewer runs you may have to score over a season. If your staff ERA is 3.5 and your "offense" is giving you an avg of 4 runs per game run support then you should end up in pretty good shape.

Will M
11-30-2006, 01:52 PM
It would depend on who the starting pitcher is. For instance, if he signs a guy who'll be a bad starting pitcher, then I won't be the least bit happy with it. I worry about whether Wilson will be able to thrive in Cincinnati because the club will require him to cut his hair, thus draining his strength in Samson-like fashion.

Though I'll note that the offseason isn't only a free agent signing period. There's the matter of trades and that's where Krivsky has to score. If Krivsky can't make progress there then significant progress probably isn't in the offing. It's not just Krivsky, it's the challenge facing anybody who wants to be GM of the Reds. You don't have unlimited cash to fill all your holes through name free agents and you don't have enough talent on the farm either. I mentioned Neagle, Vaughn and Cameron above. JimBo landed all of those guys in trades. If the Reds want to take a bold step forward, Krivsky's got to figure out a way to do something like that.



The Twins went through eight years in the weeds before their plan bore any fruit. I'll go out on a limb and say that there isn't a single person here willing to extend the next time the Reds really matter out to 2013 or so. Beyond that, I see no indication that Bob Castellini is willing to go through it. Krivsky, if he wants to keep his job, probably has the next two seasons to deliver a winner.

As for what the Reds can do, I maintain they're like Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz." The power to be a better franchise has been inside them the whole time. What the Reds can realistically do is bounded in large part by what they're willing to do. There's nothing stopping from making a big financial move if they think that player could be critical to the team's baseball prospects. Businesses redefine themselves all the time. Dunkin' Donuts serves more bagels than donuts.

Offering $51M to negotiate with Daisuke Matsuzaka supposedly wasn't realistic for the Red Sox. Yet they determined that in baseball terms he was the guy they most wanted and then they considered the business opportunity Matsuzaka could present them (the chance to break into a brand new market). Could the right big dollar move change the business for the Reds? I think it could. I'm not saying that Barry Zito is that move, because I don't want to turn this into a Barry Zito thread, but I say the Reds could break their self-imposed small market shackles anytime they wish.



I agree they're in a better place than a year ago. I also think they're worse off then six months ago. I don't have a lot of use for the truism that pitching and defense win games. Playing good baseball wins games. The Reds needed improvement in pitching (still do) and defense (which right now hinges on whether Jr. will be allowed to set foot in CF). Now they could use some help on the stick side of things too, 1B being the most obvious spot for an upgrade.

You say unhappy posters, I still say impatient. Folks are eager for better days to arrive. After six losing seasons I can hardly blame them. In the end analysis, we have to wait for the Reds to make their moves. We've got no control over when those will go down. That people are aching for something better strikes me as a pretty healthy reaction, though. That is an optimistic point of view, believing the Reds can march forward. We just don't know whether it's going to happen and until it does the natives will be restless.

1. the offseason isn't over yet. if you want to compare the Reds today vs the Reds opening day 2006 that isn't fair. compare the Reds opening day 2007 to opening day 2006.

2. why are we worse than 6 months ago?

- Larue is gone. good. he was a whiner last year. also IMO he never was that great. very streaky hitter. good arm but bad handler of pitchers.
- Aurillia is gone. he will be replaced by some RH hitter prior to opening day
- A Gonzalez replaces Lopez. IMO an upgrade. Lopez couldn't play the defense required for a SS. Plus Lopez struggled vs lefties. if AG hits .260 with 10 homers and plays great D then that will be very good for the Reds.
- EE has a year under his belt
- Denorfia showed that he should be given a shot to play CF in 2007
- Lohse is a decent pitcher. Especially compared to some of the free agents out there ( look at Eaton's contract ). Even if Lohse is gone after 2007 ( which i think he will be ) i think he will give us some decent innings this year
- The pen is better. Bray. a healthy Majik. Stanton who will hopefully give us what Weathers did last year.
People want Schowenweis & not Cormier based on the small sample size of thier Reds performance but Cormier's overall #s are better.
A pen of Bray Coffey Stanton Majik Cormier & Belisle is a LOT better that last years.
- Bailey is on the doorstep & hopefulls Votto is too

- The only real loss i see is Kearns.

3. My overall point is that IMO their is too much pessimism on the board.
The future looks a lot better than the past.
Someone said that maybe RedsZoners are impatient and not pessimistic.
Maybe that is so.
IMO with a weak AA/AAA ( despite Votto & Bailey ) combined with a small market budget we are not going to go from last to first in 2 years.

M2
11-30-2006, 02:57 PM
1. the offseason isn't over yet. if you want to compare the Reds today vs the Reds opening day 2006 that isn't fair. compare the Reds opening day 2007 to opening day 2006.

2. why are we worse than 6 months ago?

- Larue is gone. good. he was a whiner last year. also IMO he never was that great. very streaky hitter. good arm but bad handler of pitchers.
- Aurillia is gone. he will be replaced by some RH hitter prior to opening day
- A Gonzalez replaces Lopez. IMO an upgrade. Lopez couldn't play the defense required for a SS. Plus Lopez struggled vs lefties. if AG hits .260 with 10 homers and plays great D then that will be very good for the Reds.
- EE has a year under his belt
- Denorfia showed that he should be given a shot to play CF in 2007
- Lohse is a decent pitcher. Especially compared to some of the free agents out there ( look at Eaton's contract ). Even if Lohse is gone after 2007 ( which i think he will be ) i think he will give us some decent innings this year
- The pen is better. Bray. a healthy Majik. Stanton who will hopefully give us what Weathers did last year.
People want Schowenweis & not Cormier based on the small sample size of thier Reds performance but Cormier's overall #s are better.
A pen of Bray Coffey Stanton Majik Cormier & Belisle is a LOT better that last years.
- Bailey is on the doorstep & hopefulls Votto is too

- The only real loss i see is Kearns.

3. My overall point is that IMO their is too much pessimism on the board.
The future looks a lot better than the past.
Someone said that maybe RedsZoners are impatient and not pessimistic.
Maybe that is so.
IMO with a weak AA/AAA ( despite Votto & Bailey ) combined with a small market budget we are not going to go from last to first in 2 years.

1. Yep, which is why so many folks are in wait-and-see move. You now seem to be arguing that we should like the moves before they're made. BTW, I compared the Reds today to the Reds a year ago, not on opening day. Krivsky's first flurry of moves undeniably made the Reds a better club.

2. Take a look at the preposterous contracts being handed to guys like Juan Pierre and Sarge Jr. Austin Kearns and Felipe would have made value in the current trade market, opening up all kinds of possibilities for the franchise. Far more value than the two forgettable middle relievers (Bray may become something in the future, Majewski's a #5 reliever at best) they fetched this summer. The Reds now find themselves in the midst of the best seller's trade market in years without much to trade. It's a crying shame.

3. The future looks uncertain. The Reds have some talent locked up for the next two seasons and it's anyone's guess as to how much the farm can deliver by 2009. The club basically has two choices: 1) Try to hit the window created by Harang/Arroyo/Dunn or 2) Blow it up and try to rebuild around Encarnacion, Bailey, Bruce, etc. The Gonzalez and Stanton signings and everything that's come out of Bob Castellini's mouth would indicate that the Reds are shooting for option one. Yet those signings are the window dressing. The quality game-changing moves have yet to be made.

If the Reds take the approach you just gave voice to -- can't do much on a small market budget and there isn't much coming up from the minors so don't expect much -- then I'll guarantee you people aren't going to have much enthusiasm for it. That's just lather, rinse, repeat.

BoydsOfSummer
11-30-2006, 04:49 PM
I agree with you wholeheartedly. You have to score runs to win. Period. I think that a lot of people use that addage because they have heard it before. It really breaks down to this: The better pitching you have they fewer runs you may have to score over a season. If your staff ERA is 3.5 and your "offense" is giving you an avg of 4 runs per game run support then you should end up in pretty good shape.
__________________

86-76 :D

Highlifeman21
11-30-2006, 04:57 PM
What is with all the negativity? It seems like 10-20% of posters have realistic expectations of what 2007+ will bring and 80-90% of posters are serious 'negative Nellies'. Whine. *****. Moan. Lament. 200 posts each time we sign a vet to be an emergancy backup in AAA.

The Reds have gone in ONE year from being in the same class as the Pirates or Royals to being on the verge of contending for the playoffs.
Our 80-82 season wasn't great but it was a step in the right direction.
We are building a solid team. Not just to sniff the playoffs once every five years but a team that can contend yearly.

Yes we need another couple pitchers ( don't most teams ) but look at what we DO have:
A solid 1-2 punch of Arroyo & Harang.
The #1 pitching prospect in baseball waiting to join the rotation.
Four young relievers & 2 vets to help stabilize the pen for 2007.
Votto, Phillips, EE, Dunn & Deno are all young.
Bruce ( another top ten prospect ) will arrive in 2008 or 2009.
The low levels of the farm system are well stocked.

Krisky has NOT taken on any awful contracts that will cripple us going forward. Milton is gone after 2007. Griffey after 2008.

Krisky has NOT traded a single top prospect.

Folks the future is bright. Cheer up! :)

Hyperbole much?

I don't remember us being mentioned in the same breath as the Royals, and we haven't been mentioned akin to the Pirates since the 90s, when both teams were actually good.

We're far from a contender. The biggest obstacle preventing us from post-season glory is..... Jerry Narron.

If you're gonna be serious about the club, be serious about the manager. Start from there, and enjoy a trickle-down effect.

After that, have Bob and Wayne walk like winners instead of talking like winners. Bob wants to put a competitive ballclub on the field? Let Wayne go spend money wisely. Increase the payroll to 80M+. Send a message to Griffey and or Milton and outright release them. Hancock showed up to ST overweight, was cut, and he went and got himself a ring with STL. Milton's been horrible for the duration of his CIN contract, and Griffey's a waste of roster space for us, so announce them both on the same day.... DFA'd. Send a message.

Go get players via FA or trade away your productive excess. In our case, I guess this is catchers?! It used to be OF, and we went out and got Bronson Arroyo, so the logic is there, the model is there, go forth and acquire.

Last time I checked, the FO should run a team, not the players. Tell Dunn he's our everyday 1B. Tell Griffey he's our everyday LF and batting 5th. If they don't like it, find someone who will do as they're told. Stand fast and stay true.

westofyou
11-30-2006, 05:04 PM
Hyperbole much?

I don't remember us being mentioned in the same breath as the Royals, and we haven't been mentioned akin to the Pirates since the 90s, when both teams were actually good.

The Brewers and Pirates are the midst of a historical run of badness We're talking Cubs in the 50's bad, Phillies bad, the Royals were saved by a brief surge, but they've been bad since JS left in 1990.

http://baseballminutia.com/blog/2006/10/01/the-stink-of-losing-five-star-stink/


The end of the season throws the Reds into the 6th straight year of losing and the Pirates and Brewers are adding their 14th straight year of losing. Fourteen years is impressive, itís basically a run of bad decisions and bad luck that compounds into a situation that generally becomes baseball quicksand and once you are caught in baseball quicksand you join the list of stinkers that have plagued the game since the early part of the 20th century

vaticanplum
11-30-2006, 07:08 PM
However, I wonder what it will take to make some people happy.

Can I ask why you are so concerned about it? I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating anybody else. But what does it matter to you if other people are optimistic or pessimistic about this team? If you view yourself as a great optimist, then share your views why. This, this and this is why this team is good and I believe in it. That's an opinion backed up by facts. Other people may respond in kind, or more to the point, in differentiation. But they are very likely to respect it either way if it's well-presented. (I'm pretty sure that I'm the only person on this board who believes that Scott Hatteberg walks through the world on flaxen trails of golden joy, but nobody's ever called me overly optimistic about him, because I remind them that he gets on base a lot too.) That's the point of a message board. If you just want to walk around being sunny about the Reds, that's fine. You can get your information about them from the paper or espn.com.

I admit that there are times when I feel that people are determined to like this move no matter what or hate that player no matter what. If I feel that their argument is completely unfounded, I try to take them to task with facts (or some clever stathead usually beats me to it, actually). Otherwise, the poster is probably set in his opinion and that's fine. It's an opinion just as mine is. It's interesting to read and it will either change my mind or make me stronger in my own opinion. Either one is fine. I love hearing about different sides of different moves and even different opinions about the overall nature of this team. With enough optimists and enough pessimists, you're likely to get the closest to the truth somewhere in the middle.

What drives me absolutely bananas, though, is the fallacious way that people take baseball arguments and turn them into arguments of personal mentality. This person isn't really a Reds fan. Why do you even bother to watch the team if you hate them this much. You will never see any wrong with this team. Not only is this boring and immature, but it almost always takes the discussion away from whatever baseball argument from which it started. And I can never see when these arguments are coming -- they crop up in the most normal of baseball threads -- so it's waste of my much-beloved baseball reading time. Above all, it's an argument that no one can win. You can change a person's mind about an issue with fact, but you're very unlikely to change a person's mentality.

So I appreciate, at the very least, the starting of this issue's own unique thread, which I've only skimmed. Usually I try not to get involved in these arguments for all the reasons listed above but I wanted to go ahead and get this off my chest in this thread. Fans being too pessimistic? Don't tell them their mentality is wrong. Show them where their reasoning is wrong. It's a stronger argument and has more to do with the facts. And you catch more flies with honey, etc.

I was half-joking about my scientific study before, but I do promise you that if this team wins the World Series, optimism will overrun this board. It'll be hard-won and all the more worth it for it. But this team has a lot of moves to make before it has a shot at such a thing. So all of these people arguing for the best moves possible are, in a sense, great optimists, or optimists-in-waiting.

Will M
11-30-2006, 08:54 PM
1. Arroyo
2. Harang
3. Bailey. We could have the best top three starters in baseball in 2008.
4. A solid deep ( if unspectacular ) pen
5. Ross, Valentin, Hat, Freel are solid. Cheap too.
5. Phillips & EE are young and good
6. Gonzalez will be overall better than Lopez.
AG, Bray & Majik >> Kearns & Lopez
7. Dunn had a bad season & still hit 40 HRs with an OBP of >.360
8. Deno plays a strong CF. I think he will hit enough to be an asset.
9. Griffey is on the books for only two more years
10. Milton is on the books for only 2007. I suspect he will pitch half way decent and we will get VALUE for him mid season ( if we are out of contention and want to trade him )
11. Lohse is just as good as half the free agents out there. Again I suspect he will pitch half way decent and we will get VALUE for him mid season ( if we are out of contention and want to trade him )
12. The low levels minors are stocked. Thanks to DanO who was a bad GM overall but a good drafter.
13. EZ ( whom most posters hate or have written off ) was 23 ( or 24 ) years old last year. He may just have worn down. Future is uncertain.
14. Votto and Bruce ( along with Bailey ) are top 25 prospects.

Spring~Fields
11-30-2006, 08:58 PM
Fans being too pessimistic? Don't tell them their mentality is wrong. Show them where their reasoning is wrong. It's a stronger argument and has more to do with the facts.

Wouldn't it be human nature, almost correct for ones to be cynical even skeptical of those that voice and present fine optimistic arguments for six straight losing seasons, six seasons where the verdict was almost always in by the end of July? Six seasons of reading optomistic dialogue that the end of the season proved wrong again and again? "The Little Boy That Cried Wolf" lost credibility, and so do the optimist after every losing season, fired manager, fired gm that left the minor league and pitching cupboards bare, and even Junior that they have so vigorously supported. Perhaps it is wrong to label people who have been correct as a pessimist to begin with.

2001 Cincinnati - 66 - 96 .407
2002 Cincinnati - 78 - 84 .481
2003 Cincinnati - 69 - 93 .426
2004 Cincinnati - 76 - 86 .469
2005 Cincinnati - 73 - 89 .451
2006 Cincinnati - 80 - 82 .494

Imagine reading long fine optimistic arguments every pre-season, season, then the off-season and then to look and see the facts above?

Will M
11-30-2006, 09:10 PM
Wouldn't it be human nature, almost correct for ones to be cynical even skeptical of those that voice and present fine optimistic arguments for six straight losing seasons, six seasons where the verdict was almost always in by the end of July? Six seasons of reading optomistic dialogue that the end of the season proved wrong again and again? "The Little Boy That Cried Wolf" lost credibility, and so do the optimist after every losing season, fired manager, fired gm that left the minor league and pitching cupboards bare, and even Junior that they have so vigorously supported. Perhaps it is wrong to label people who have been correct as a pessimist to begin with.

2001 Cincinnati - 66 - 96 .407
2002 Cincinnati - 78 - 84 .481
2003 Cincinnati - 69 - 93 .426
2004 Cincinnati - 76 - 86 .469
2005 Cincinnati - 73 - 89 .451
2006 Cincinnati - 80 - 82 .494

Imagine reading long fine optimistic arguments every pre-season, season, then the off-season and then to look and see the facts above?

Different owner.
Different GMs.
Different players.

Honestly I have been a Reds fan my whole life ( age 42 ). However my interest waned during Lindners tenure. He inherited a weak farm system from Marge & did nothing to fix it. He spent money poorly. He didn't seem to know much about baseball.

Now we have a new owner & a new GM.
Both have experience with teams from smaller markets who put good teams on the field.
We just had our best season since 1999.
We have some real talent both on the major league team and in the minors.
I think the future looks bright.

Rojo
11-30-2006, 09:21 PM
What drives me absolutely bananas, though, is the fallacious way that people take baseball arguments and turn them into arguments of personal mentality. This person isn't really a Reds fan. Why do you even bother to watch the team if you hate them this much. You will never see any wrong with this team. Not only is this boring and immature, but it almost always takes the discussion away from whatever baseball argument from which it started.

My favorites are posters who "just want to win". "Woe is me", I think whenever I read it, "were that I had the 'eye of the tiger' ".

Spring~Fields
11-30-2006, 10:06 PM
Different owner.
Different GMs.
Different players.

Honestly I have been a Reds fan my whole life ( age 42 ). However my interest waned during Lindners tenure. He inherited a weak farm system from Marge & did nothing to fix it. He spent money poorly. He didn't seem to know much about baseball.

Now we have a new owner & a new GM.
Both have experience with teams from smaller markets who put good teams on the field.
We just had our best season since 1999.
We have some real talent both on the major league team and in the minors.
I think the future looks bright.

I think you point to some realities that give hope, I can't honestly question that.

Spring~Fields
11-30-2006, 10:09 PM
the 'eye of the tiger' ".

Now that would be just fantastic to see from the Reds organization, from the front office to the field of play. Super, just super. I am looking forward to it.

Yeah Go Reds !!!