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View Full Version : RedsZone Hall of Fame, Version 2006-07 - Third Basemen



Cyclone792
11-30-2006, 12:33 AM
RedsZone Hall of Fame Second Basemen Ballot (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52581) open until December 1st, 2006.

Vote for all THIRD BASEMEN you believe should be in the RedsZone Hall of Fame. This is a multiple-choice poll so you're allowed to vote for more than one player.

For reference purposes: Major League Baseball Hall of Fame Third Basemen (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/pos&3B.htm)

Previously Elected Third Basemen: Home Run Baker, Wade Boggs, George Brett, Jimmy Collins, Eddie Mathews, Paul Molitor, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, & Pie Traynor

Dropped From Ballot: Bill Bradley, Lave Cross, Art Devlin, Jimmy Dykes, Gary Gaetti, Larry Gardner, Carney Lansford, Billy Nash, Terry Pendleton, & Tim Wallach

Players from earlier eras may be lesser known among some RedsZone voters, but in the efforts of encouraging everybody to vote while also maintaining a somewhat level playing field for all eligible candidates, we've instituted a tier system for support needed to gain election ...

Negro Leaguers: Need 3/8 support
19th century (i.e. pre 1903): Need 2/5 support
Early Modern (roughly 1903-1945): Need 1/2 support
Integration (roughly 1945-1970): Need 5/8 support
Post Integration (roughly 1970-present): Need 2/3 support

The charts below are win shares data for all candidates. In order from left to right, the columns are career win shares, five-year peak win shares, win shares per 162 games, win shares during a player's top season and the predominant era each player played in (for purposes of the tier voting system). Happy voting!


Player Career WS Peak WS WS per 162 Top Season Era
Sal Bando 283 143 22.71 36 Post Integration
John Beckwith --------------- NEGRO LEAGUES ----------------------------------
Buddy Bell 299 107 20.14 26 Post Integration
Ken Boyer 280 131 22.30 31 Integration
Ken Caminiti 235 124 23.19 38 Post Integration
Ron Cey 282 126 22.04 27 Post Integration
Harlond Clift 213 111 21.81 25 Early Modern to WWII
Ray Dandridge --------------- NEGRO LEAGUES ----------------------------------
Bob Elliot 287 124 23.51 29 Integration
Darrell Evans 364 117 21.95 31 Post Integration
Heinie Groh 271 147 26.19 37 Early Modern to WWII
Stan Hack 318 140 26.58 34 Early Modern to WWII
Toby Harrah 284 118 21.35 32 Post Integration
Howard Johnson 196 133 20.74 38 Post Integration
Judy Johnson --------------- NEGRO LEAGUES ----------------------------------




Player Career WS Peak WS WS per 162 Top Season Era
George Kell 229 106 20.67 26 Integration
Ken Keltner* 199 104 21.13 26 Early Modern to WWII
Tommy Leach 329 122 24.72 31 Early Modern to WWII
Freddie Lindstrom 192 116 21.63 31 Early Modern to WWII
Denny Lyons 189 122 27.31 27 19th Century
Bill Madlock 244 112 21.89 26 Post Integration
Dave Malarcher --------------- NEGRO LEAGUES ----------------------------------
Ollie Marcelle --------------- NEGRO LEAGUES ----------------------------------
John McGraw 207 122 30.51 33 19th Century
Graig Nettles 322 121 19.32 28 Post Integration
Al Rosen 185 154 28.71 42 Integration
Ron Santo 322 162 23.26 37 Integration
Jud Wilson --------------- NEGRO LEAGUES ----------------------------------
Eddie Yost 269 123 20.66 27 Integration
Heinie Zimmerman 215 118 23.92 34 Early Modern to WWII

* Missed playing time due to WWII

RedsBaron
11-30-2006, 07:03 AM
Ken Boyer, Heinie Groh, John McGraw, Ron Santo.
I probably should have voted for Judy Johnson and/or some of the other Negro Leaguers, but I just do not know enough about them.

chicoruiz
11-30-2006, 07:53 AM
Johnson, Dandridge, and Boyer just because everybody beats the drum for Santo (and rightfully so) but few people mention Boyer.

NJReds
11-30-2006, 11:44 AM
Some interesting info on Judy Johnson:


Quote: "No matter how much the pressure, no matter how important the play or the throw or the hit, Judy could do it when it counted." Cool Papa Bell, The Negro Leagues Book.


William Julius "Judy" Johnson (October 26, 1899 - June 15, 1989) was a third baseman in the Negro Leagues.

Johnson was born in Snow Hill, MD. Although his father wanted him to be a boxer, Johnson, who was 5 ft 11 in and only 150 lb, was far better suited for a career in baseball. After being a dock worker during World War I, Johnson began his baseball career in 1918, reaching the top-level Negro Leagues in 1921 with the Hilldale Daisies, a team for which he played through 1929.

In 1930 Johnson was a player-coach for the Homestead Grays, and in that capacity he discovered Josh Gibson. From 1935 through his last season in 1938, Johnson was the captain of the Pittsburgh Crawfords, one of the greatest franchises of all time. Although the Crawfords also included fellow Hall of Famers Gibson, Oscar Charleston and Cool Papa Bell, Johnson was the glue that held the team together. His vital role on the team was most apparent in the 1935 Negro League World Series, when he hit a clutch single to win the sixth game with the Crawfords down 3 games to 2 against the New York Cubans. The Crawfords won the series in seven games.

Johnson was a precise contact hitter who batted reached an average of .416 in 1929, but his greatest ability was his fielding. Along with Ray Dandridge and Ghost Marcelle, Johnson was one of the greatest fielding third basemen in the Negro Leagues. He was also one of the smartest men in baseball, able to compensate for any physical shortcomings with an unsurpassed ability to think faster than his opponents, particularly in pressure situations.

Although Johnson retired nine years before the integration of the major leagues, he was eventually able to apply his baseball knowledge in the majors, becoming the first African American to coach in Major League Baseball (1954). He also was one of the most accomplished talent scouts in baseball, responsible for signing Bill Bruton and Dick Allen.

Johnson retired in 1973 and was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1975, the sixth Negro Leaguer so honored. Like Pop Lloyd before him, he was known for his exemplary character off the field. He died at age 89 in Wilmington, DE.

Known statistics: .344 career batting average

RedsBaron
11-30-2006, 12:41 PM
Johnson, Dandridge, and Boyer just because everybody beats the drum for Santo (and rightfully so) but few people mention Boyer.

IMO Ron Santo and Ken Boyer both belong in the HOF, and I further believe there is so little difference between their qualifications that they are a pair--either both should be inducted, or neither should be.

M2
11-30-2006, 01:04 PM
Judy Johnson and Ray Dandridge were two of the elite players in the Negro Leagues.

Nice to see the early strong response for McGraw and Santo.

NJReds
11-30-2006, 01:07 PM
I went through this rather quickly, and should have voted for Dandridge, but didn't. Can the mods add a vote for Ray? Thanks.

westofyou
11-30-2006, 01:38 PM
John Beckwith - First man to clear the wall at Redland, brutal 3rd baseman by all accounts though.

Cyclone792
11-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Judy Johnson and Ray Dandridge were two of the elite players in the Negro Leagues.

Nice to see the early strong response for McGraw and Santo.

Judy Johnson and Ray Dandridge are probably the two greatest third basemen in Negro League history, and they definitely got my vote.

I've always been a big fan of Heinie Groh and Stan Hack as well.

M2
11-30-2006, 02:11 PM
Heinie got my vote.

Rojo
11-30-2006, 02:23 PM
I voted for D. Evans, the Bert Blyleven of hitters.

westofyou
11-30-2006, 02:52 PM
I voted for D. Evans, the Bert Blyleven of hitters.
Me too, I loved him as a Giant and Tiger.

RedsBaron
11-30-2006, 09:11 PM
At this point, Ron Santo looks to be on his way to election, with 14 votes (64%), while Ken Boyer has 5 votes (23%) and will not be elected. IMO Santo should be elected, both here and to the real Hall of Fame--but so should Boyer.
In "The Politics of Glory" written by Bill James and published in 1994, James named Santo as the best Hall of Fame third base candidate among those not elected, but added he would "add another third baseman, Ken Boyer" (pages 351-352). At page 327, James wrote that Boyer's credentials were very similar to those of Santo, adding that the "interesting question about Boyer is whether he should rank a little ahead of Santo, or a little behind him. Santo has slightly better numbers-342 homers as opposed to 282 for Boyer, 1331 RBI to 1141 for Boyer. Santo, however, played in Wrigley Field, so you have to cut his numbers a little, plus Boyer lead his team to a World Championship, which Santo never could."
James went on to note that when Santo had perhaps his best season in 1964, Boyer was named the NL MVP. He noted that both were outstanding defensive third basemen, winning five Gold Gloves a piece. He concluded by stating that he was not there to debate Santo versus Boyer because he thought they should both be in the HOF.
Boyer finished his career with a .287 average, an OBP of .349 and a SLG of .462, while Santo's numbers were .277 .362 .464. Santo's career was just a bit longer, 2243 games to 2034, so he edges Boyer in most of the counting stats, 1138 runs to 1104, 2254 hits to 2143, 365 doubles to 318, 67 triples to 68, 35 steals to 105, and the aforementioned 342 HRs to 282 and 1331 RBI to 1141. As reflected in the stolen base total, Boyer was a better baserunner. Other than stolen bases, their offensive numbers are very similar, especially when you consider Santo's home field advantage.
Santo was a nine time All Star and Boyer was a seven time All Star.
Boyer won a MVP award; Santo did not.
Boyer in particular seems to have been a team leader. If you read David Halberstam's "October 1964" you will find that while Stan Musial was the Cardinals primary star until he retired after the 1963 season, Boyer was the team captain and respected leader of the team.
Both Boyer and Santo belong in the Hall of Fame. Boyer is long dead. I hope Santo is elected while he can still enjoy the honor.

M2
11-30-2006, 09:33 PM
Me too, I loved him as a Giant and Tiger.

He was like a giant tiger,sort of like a Liger.

Highlifeman21
12-06-2006, 06:30 PM
Vote early and often.

That's how Dewey beat Truman.

Big Klu
12-13-2006, 11:25 PM
I voted for:

Boyer, Dandridge, Evans, Groh, Hack, J.Johnson, McGraw, Rosen, and Santo.


I had to think about Al Rosen for a minute. He only played seven full seasons, but he was so dominant in those seasons that I finally decided to vote for him.

John McGraw gets an extra push due to his managerial career, but he was a great player in his day.

Cyclone792
01-03-2007, 04:48 PM
This ballot is closed, and three more third basemen have been elected. Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson, both Negro League Stars, were elected on their first try. John McGraw, a third baseman in his playing days and one of the greatest managers in baseball history, was also elected. Ron Santo fell one vote short of the necessary 62.5 percent required for his election.

The total number of third basemen inducted into the RedsZone Hall of Fame is now 12:


Third Basemen (12)

Home Run Baker
Wade Boggs
George Brett
Jimmy Collins
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
Eddie Mathews
John McGraw
Paul Molitor
Brooks Robinson
Mike Schmidt
Pie Traynor

The Shortstops Ballot (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53582) is open until January 10th.