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redsfan4445
12-01-2006, 11:50 PM
from marc's blog:
Payroll flexibility?

Earlier this evening, Bob Castellini was chatting with a few of us reporter types and somebody made the requisite crack about looking forward to that Barry Zito press conference. We all know that's not going to happen, but Castellini insisted the Reds have some wiggle room with the remaining budget.

"Nothingís out of the question," he said. "We donít knock any possibility out of the realm of possibility, OK? We look at every possibility thatís going to make this team a better team."

I mentioned his statement about ponying up some more cash at midseason if the team was in contention, and he said he'd do it again this year. Then he implied he's prepared to do it this winter.

"People keep trying to figure out how much money there is Ė donít worry about it," he said. "If we have to move out a little bit more, weíll move out a little bit more. ... There is no exactness."


HMM this made me smile as a Reds fan... Lets see what magic they can do :)

noskill27
12-01-2006, 11:58 PM
Good to hear. Hopefully, he can back it up!

M2
12-02-2006, 12:04 AM
Nice to hear. It's exactly the attitude the franchise should have.

jimbo
12-02-2006, 12:35 AM
That just makes me feel giddy.

MartyFan
12-02-2006, 12:53 AM
LOVE THIS OWNER AND GM..they will return the Reds to GLORY!!!

edabbs44
12-02-2006, 12:59 AM
WARNING...do not read if you don't want to hear negative thoughts.

I will believe it when I see it. We've heard this before and I fell for it once already. I really hope he is telling the truth but I am not buying yet. The way WK and Bob are talking, you'd think they're gonna break the bank. All these quotes like "stay tuned" and "We don’t knock any possibility out of the realm of possibility, OK?", whatever the heck that means. As always, I'm taking these quotes with a:

http://www.isitso.org/guide/salt.gif

WVRedsFan
12-02-2006, 02:09 AM
WARNING...do not read if you don't want to hear negative thoughts.

I will believe it when I see it. We've heard this before and I fell for it once already. I really hope he is telling the truth but I am not buying yet. The way WK and Bob are talking, you'd think they're gonna break the bank. All these quotes like "stay tuned" and "We donít knock any possibility out of the realm of possibility, OK?", whatever the heck that means. As always, I'm taking these quotes with a:

http://www.isitso.org/guide/salt.gif

I sometimes think that all baseball people say the things that will make the fans come to the park...or the RedsFest, for that matter. If these quotes were totally accurate, we'd already have Barry Zito, a slugging outfielder and another starter. ain't gonna happen.

Phhhl
12-02-2006, 02:47 AM
I believe Castellini. I think he means it. I don't think ownership is the problem anymore. I still wonder about the baseball people. I read something earlier tonight that the consensus among other teams is that the Reds are going to give Adam Dunn away. That is the residual problem when a gm sticks his neck out and gets it lopped off in a deal like the one Krivsky made with the Nats last summer. True or not, the rest of the league is going to assume you're an idiot when you open negotiations on a deal. It becomes a road block, because the other guy is always going to hold out as long as possible to see if you are going to "break" again.

I don't think any reasonable person expects the club to compete with the ridiculous spending that is going on in free agency this winter. Castellini might be showboating a little to even suggest it. But, a good gm who has established his credintials has plenty of time to make good moves moving forward. I have no doubt that ownership would not fixate on a bottom line if we could make a move that would make a difference. I just wonder if Krivsky is capable to doing that, especially considering the "trap" he has created for himself.

jojo
12-02-2006, 06:02 AM
I dunno... The Reds were in the thick of things until the last week of the season yet attendance was only up roughly 8% from the previous year and the Reds were doing everything short of offering to swing by fans' houses and pick them up in order to get them to the stadium during some series with bonifide playoff implications (my 8 yo actually treated me to a Padres game/refreshments out of her own money)...

The FO claimed the Nats deal as proof they were willing to raise payroll... (well ok I guess, but wasn't a big component of that really about deciding Lopez wasn't worth his arbitration raise this off season?).

I just suspect that what Castellini means by payroll increase and what diehard Reds fans hope he means by payroll increase may not be the same thing...

Anyway, I've seen enough spin from the new ownership/leadership to have some healthy skepticism about certain issues...

oneupper
12-02-2006, 06:48 AM
It definitely can make sense for a sports franchise to run a deficit, if that added investment creates value for the brand.

What's more, the increase in value of most sports franchises has outstripped inflation and interest rates over long periods of time. A smart owner should tap into that "passive income" to build his brand.

Think of it as a home equity loan (in the good days for housing) for an upgrade or addition. The appreciation in value is going to pay the loan all by itself.

Falls City Beer
12-02-2006, 08:19 AM
Show me.

NJReds
12-02-2006, 09:12 AM
I think signing Zito for $15M+ year for 5-7 years is crazy anyway.

edabbs44
12-02-2006, 09:19 AM
I think signing Zito for $15M+ year for 5-7 years is crazy anyway.

Agreed, but pretty soon we're gonna look up and every pitcher with some sort of talent wil be gone. And we'll be performing the January dumpster dive once again. Repeat next year, and the next, and the...

That's why they need to draft starting pitchers with at least their first 5 picks next year. If they cannot afford good pitching then there is no other alternative.

redsmetz
12-02-2006, 09:37 AM
I think signing Zito for $15M+ year for 5-7 years is crazy anyway.

And there it is in a nutshell. How many posters on here have said that Zito, good pitcher that he is, is a flyball pitcher and would not do well at GABP.

I'll take Cast at his word. For everyone whose saying spread the money out, I have just one name - Eric Milton. Let's not go there again. Even though I root for him every time he goes out (and I got to see him pitch a heckuva game in Milwaukee this summer), I don't want the Reds throwing money at someone like him. I'd rather those pitchers be someone else's problem.

RedEye
12-02-2006, 10:42 AM
I believe Castellini. I think he means it. I don't think ownership is the problem anymore. I still wonder about the baseball people. I read something earlier tonight that the consensus among other teams is that the Reds are going to give Adam Dunn away. That is the residual problem when a gm sticks his neck out and gets it lopped off in a deal like the one Krivsky made with the Nats last summer. True or not, the rest of the league is going to assume you're an idiot when you open negotiations on a deal. It becomes a road block, because the other guy is always going to hold out as long as possible to see if you are going to "break" again.

I don't think any reasonable person expects the club to compete with the ridiculous spending that is going on in free agency this winter. Castellini might be showboating a little to even suggest it. But, a good gm who has established his credintials has plenty of time to make good moves moving forward. I have no doubt that ownership would not fixate on a bottom line if we could make a move that would make a difference. I just wonder if Krivsky is capable to doing that, especially considering the "trap" he has created for himself.


Well put. Unfortunately, I completely agree.

jmac
12-02-2006, 10:54 AM
I think signing Zito for $15M+ year for 5-7 years is crazy anyway.

i dont know if you referring to zito inparticular or just the contract.

1= the contract in general......yes , the prices are out of sight. however i remember when i bought my first car, gas was 69 cents a gallon(around 1985). now we are at 2.15+ . sometimes sliding down a few cents only going back several cents later. will we ever see the 69 cents again ? i doubt it.
Yeah....they say the "cost of living" thing.

So as far as the contracts..:eek: but till something changes, to get the type A free agent , we will have to pay it or set on the sidelines.

2= Zito....well he is a Type A free agent in my opinion.
However, it would not surprise me in the least for Harang to have a better ERA this upcoming season.
so would zito be worth it ? he is the best out there right now.

Main point= lock up Harang, wayne k. The prices are up there now and they are only going higher.
because of injury history...if Harang was on the market today...i would want him over schmidt. Give him a nice raise and keep him a Red.

corkedbat
12-02-2006, 10:54 AM
I believe BCast when he says he's willing to move out a little bit, but there is always gonna be another team willing to move out a little bit more.

The Yanks and other big market teams have a much larger margin for error. If the Reds make a gamble move like Milton and miss, they're stuck and it binds up the roster for years. If the Yanks make a Milton or Pavano (etc.)-like signing, so what? They just go out and sign a Mussina, a Clemmons or a Zito and bury the mistake in middle-relief until the contract runs out or they throw in some cash and/or one of their over-rated prospects to get them off their hands.

I actually kinda feel sorry for the FO. I believe the money and the "want to" are there to make this team better. A lack-luster FA crop, ridiculously over-inflated market prices and few, if any, trading chips of any value whatsoever severly limit what they can actually accomplish though.

I, for one, will be greatly impressed if it's much at all. In fact, I've actually reached the point where I'll be relieved if they make it through the offseason without one or two Miltonesque disasters just because they get frustrated and want to have something (anything) to show.

Falls City Beer
12-02-2006, 11:01 AM
No one seemed to mind a bit when, seven years ago, the FO thought it was a good idea to spend 116 million to bring in an outfielder with bad knees (which were public knowledge at the time of the trade). But a top-shelf pitcher going for less over a shorter period of time, and is a much more easily tradeable commodity, that's just a bad idea?

Chip R
12-02-2006, 11:14 AM
I believe BCast when he says he's willing to move out a little bit, but there is always gonna be another team willing to move out a little bit more.

The Yanks and other big market teams have a much larger margin for error. If the Reds make a gamble move like Milton and miss, they're stuck and it binds up the roster for years.

There's gambling and then there's hitting on 19. If I'm a Blackjack dealer and I see DanO at the table. I've got no worries cause I know he's going to hit on 19 then go back and play at the $5 table after he busts.

Playing it safe is never going to get the Reds anywhere. But I don't want to see them just throwing money at someone just to prove they can do it to the fans and the media. I don't want to see them sign a Weaver or a Marquis to a 5 year deal for what Milton is making. But I would like to see them be players for someone who may put them over budget but would be worth it.

redsmetz
12-02-2006, 11:16 AM
No one seemed to mind a bit when, seven years ago, the FO thought it was a good idea to spend 116 million to bring in an outfielder with bad knees (which were public knowledge at the time of the trade). But a top-shelf pitcher going for less over a shorter period of time, and is a much more easily tradeable commodity, that's just a bad idea?

And yet the irony is that most of Junior's injuries while with the Reds have been unrelated to his knees. I can't find the list, but I know the hamstring and at least one broken bone sent him to the DL during his time here. The long-term lock up of Griffey was at the time a good move. Fate has dealt some severe blows to that.

Falls City Beer
12-02-2006, 11:20 AM
And yet the irony is that most of Junior's injuries while with the Reds have been unrelated to his knees. I can't find the list, but I know the hamstring and at least one broken bone sent him to the DL during his time here. The long-term lock up of Griffey was at the time a good move. Fate has dealt some severe blows to that.

It wasn't a good move then; it isn't now. I said so at the time--way too many years on a hitter over thirty.

I just think it's funny how the Griffey/Milton deals have made everybody gunshy.

It's just interesting. But it's moot, the Reds aren't going after Zito, so everyone can rest easy that no real major pitching improvements are coming to Cincy this season from without.

Cross your fingers and hope Bailey's ready.

westofyou
12-02-2006, 11:22 AM
No one seemed to mind a bit when, seven years ago, the FO thought it was a good idea to spend 116 million to bring in an outfielder with bad knees (which were public knowledge at the time of the trade). But a top-shelf pitcher going for less over a shorter period of time, and is a much more easily tradeable commodity, that's just a bad idea?
At the time it was trumpeted as a home town deal as well, the market had exploded in the wake of the big offense build up. Griffey's RC/27 for 2000 season was the the 31st best in team history so the payback seemed good for a year. (BTW Dunn's 04 and 05 season are 24th and 40th best in modern team history)

The years were the twist of the knife, that and hamstrings made of old rubber bands and cork.

SunDeck
12-02-2006, 11:35 AM
I sometimes think that all baseball people say the things that will make the fans come to the park...or the RedsFest, for that matter. If these quotes were totally accurate, we'd already have Barry Zito, a slugging outfielder and another starter. ain't gonna happen.

Bob knows the quotes aren't just read by fans. He's got to talk to agents as well. After all, one of the things every FA wants is to play on a team that is trying to win. Let's just pretend he said this instead: "Well, we're pretty tapped out right now. Being a small market franchise means we just can't pony up the cash to stay competitive."
Would that kind of candor make people happy?

I'm guessing Bob has a lot of money. Hinting that he'll take some of it from the vegetable business to spend on the ballclub is a good move.

Spring~Fields
12-02-2006, 02:07 PM
WARNING...do not read if you don't want to hear negative thoughts.

I will believe it when I see it. We've heard this before and I fell for it once already. I really hope he is telling the truth but I am not buying yet. The way WK and Bob are talking, you'd think they're gonna break the bank. All these quotes like "stay tuned" and "We don’t knock any possibility out of the realm of possibility, OK?", whatever the heck that means. As always, I'm taking these quotes with a:

http://www.isitso.org/guide/salt.gif

Castellini is not making any revelations here and not promising any grandiose changes. He is telling the fans that they can expect changes, but don't expect any huge player changes that will bring huge financial changes to the payroll budget.

Mr. Castellini appears to be honest and reasonable when he communicates in a business and accounting manner. He is not exaggerating by telling the fans or implying to the fans that the Reds are going to make any large changes that would significantly increase the budget. He is not leading them to believe in some fantastic improvements to player personnel that the team cannot afford.

The subject of Marc’s writing is “payroll flexibility”.
Mr. Castellini said that there is a “little bit“, or “wiggle room” for payroll flexibility. Little or wiggle are adjectives meaning small.

“Castellini insisted the Reds have some wiggle room with the remaining budget”

Castellini is using accounting parlance in using the term budget. Budget means the plan for allocating resources: a plan specifying how resources, especially time or money, will be allocated or spent during a particular period.

He is also being conservative or using conservatism in his use of generalities, conservative/conservatism cautious and on low side: cautiously moderate and therefore often less than the final outcome, is more accounting parlance, meaning, tendency to support gradual rather than abrupt change and to preserve the status quo.
Payrolls are an “inexact” projection due to the volatility in payroll changes that occur during a fiscal year that is the “period” in accounting terms, they are not fixed as in fixed expenses, so he has to say, “there is no exactness”. They will change and vary within a given fiscal year for any business, but he has clearly told us in small increments by using the terms “wiggle room” and “little bit”, meaning small amounts.


Points of reference:
Accounting parlance -
Parlance - particular way of talking: the style of speech or writing used by people in a particular context or profession.

Budget - plan for allocating resources: a plan specifying how resources, especially time or money, will be allocated or spent during a particular period
money for particular purpose: the total amount of money allocated or needed for a particular purpose or period of time
plan spending: to plan the allocation, expenditure, or use of resources, especially money or time.

Conservatism - tendency to support gradual rather than abrupt change and to preserve the status quo
To support gradual, preserve the status quo - Thus Castellini says, “wiggle” or “little”.

Conservative - cautious and on low side: cautiously moderate and therefore often less than the final outcome
Less than the final outcome because the payroll budget will have variances or variations due to the nature of arbitration, certain other moves that the team may or may not make, and the components in those contracts that might come or go.

“Little bit”
Little - an adjective meaning "small"

“Wiggle room”
Wiggle - make small movements: to move side to side in small quick movements, or make something move in this way - example of little bit or wiggle room. Krivsky has been consistent with those terms as it is reported that he made 42 moves or trades, those were each small movements

“Exactness correct“
: accurate and correct in all important details
precise: precise and not allowing for any variation.

Payroll in contrast to:

Fixed expense
Not subject to change: not subject to change in amount or time

Fixed cost - unchanging expense: a business expense that does not vary according to the amount of business

He has to say “there is no exactness“, because the payroll is naturally not exact, he leaves that up to the fans for their open interpretation for the realm of possible large increases in payroll to improve the team.

But he has said in fact just the opposite, he has said there is little, there is wiggle room, meaning small amounts, which does not equate to large improvements that cause substantive increases to the budget which is the plan for 2007.

"Nothing’s out of the question," he said. "We don’t knock any possibility out of the realm of possibility, OK? We look at every possibility that’s going to make this team a better team."

“We look at every possibility”

Look - consider something: to direct the attention toward something in order to consider it
Let's look at the possible options.
possibility out of the realm of possibility
Possibility - something possible: something that is possible
Possibilities - potential: the potential for successful future development

Yet he has already conservatively stated that there is only room for a “little bit”, or “wiggle room” so the options for
possibilities will be limited by the budget plan that has only a small amount to make allowances for changes or increases to that budget.

redsfanmia
12-02-2006, 04:01 PM
Uncle Carl used to say the same things about flexibility to add payroll midseason. It didnt happen when he said it and it didnt happen when Cast said it last year. Lets call "the trade" what it was, a salary dump. How much money did that trade save the Reds in arbitration raises? 10 million? Dont promise us one thing then deliver another. Anyone thinking Wayne is going to sign anyone thats not on the scrap heap and signing cheap is way off base imo. The more things change the more they stay the same.

gonelong
12-02-2006, 04:07 PM
And yet the irony is that most of Junior's injuries while with the Reds have been unrelated to his knees. .

IMO they are all related. A weekness in one area of a limb leads to problems for the other areas.

GL

fearofpopvol1
12-02-2006, 07:10 PM
I really do like BCast's attitude and his sense of tradition for the organization. It's something that has been missing for quite some time. However, at the end of the day, results at the end of the season are all that really matters and I'm still optimisic that with some time, BCast can accomplish this.

However, as everyone else has seen, the free agent market has shot through the roof this offseason. This just solidifies the importance of building a strong farm system. If you can build talent from the ground up each year and continue to have strong prospects, you can get by with a cheaper payroll (which I'm hopeful is the biggest and most important thing that Wayne learned from Terry Ryan in Minne). Before the Reds think about paying 15 million for a pitcher, they should think about sinking in some of that money to picking up some new scouts. That's ultimately who is going to bring you in the better (long-term) return. I understand that Reds fans aren't patient nor should they be. This drought of losing seasons has been horrific, but it's going to take time to undo all this damage from previous regimes.

fearofpopvol1
12-03-2006, 09:35 PM
IMO they are all related. A weekness in one area of a limb leads to problems for the other areas.

GL

Definitely seems that way.