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dunner13
12-04-2006, 04:17 PM
From MLBtraderumors.com

"Gotham: Red Still After Bonderman
According to Gotham Baseball, reporting from the Winter Meetings, the Reds are still trying to trade for Jeremy Bonderman. Unfortunately, the Tigers probably will not trade him. Wayne Krivsky is chasing a lesser option in Brian Bannister of the Mets. Last week, we reported that the Rockies and Mariners have interest in Bannister.

Of course, plenty of teams are still trying to trade for Jason Jennings. Those include the Mets, D'Backs, Astros, and Cards according to Gotham. Previously, the Rockies had received inquiries from the Cubs and Twins."


Waynes trying to get Bonderman or Bannister two very good young pitchers. I know many of you genius think that wayne should just show up at the winter meetings and offer freel, milton and cormier for bonderman and be able to get it done within five minutes. But it takes alot of work and I think this shows we have a GM who is targeting the right players and trying to improve the reds alot.

Tom Servo
12-04-2006, 04:25 PM
Here's the full article:
http://www.gothambaseball.com/news/1165257764.php

Lots of Reds discussion. I'll note that I'd take Stanton for a little under 3 million a year everyday of the week over Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews Jr at $9 million and $10 million a year respectively.

Edd Roush
12-04-2006, 04:29 PM
It's hard to think that Krivsky is doing a great job when baseball officials are so often criticizing his moves. Who knows how this thing will actually shake out?

Redny
12-04-2006, 04:35 PM
Sounds like Jimbo is giving them the quotes.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 04:37 PM
I don't doubt his ability to be acquire them, I doubt his ability to acquire them in a deal favorable to the Reds.

Joseph
12-04-2006, 04:46 PM
Here's the thing about Wayne and 'The Trade', which thus far is the major thing on which we have to judge Mr. K.

The idea of the trade was not a bad one at all. Two young pitchers, one who has the potential to close, another who we could hope could be a Scott Sullivan rubber arm type. The problem is it didn't work. Had those guys pitched like expected, I don't think we would have nearly as much fault with 'The Trade'. I can't say he made a mistake in that honestly. I'm at times critical, and I do have my concerns about 'the plan' he might have, but I can't fault him for the thing most everyone seems to dislike him for here. It didn't work, there is no denying that, but it also wasn't a bad idea either. We dumped two solid, though not spectacular players for two young pitchers and a prospect.

I don't doubt he's out there trying hard to improve this team in the constraints of whatever budget we have.

Hell I don't even doubt that there IS a plan, I just wish I knew what it was. He's under no obligation to tell us though. Maybe that makes him a better GM than we've had in decades [not that its hard to accomplish] or maybe it makes him something else entirely, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Doesn't mean I won't be frustrated with him in the interim.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 04:58 PM
The problem is it didn't work. The problem was it was a bad idea. Trading everyday players and with a quality bat for young and inexperienced relievers(one with known arm issues, sorry Wayne but that was my first thought about Majewski) is in general a high risk/low return proposition. There is a reason that other than the top closers most relievers don't make much ... they are replaceable parts. Certainly neither Bray of Majewski have the kind of stuff as relievers that say "stud".

Mario-Rijo
12-04-2006, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Joseph
Here's the thing about Wayne and 'The Trade', which thus far is the major thing on which we have to judge Mr. K.

The idea of the trade was not a bad one at all. Two young pitchers, one who has the potential to close, another who we could hope could be a Scott Sullivan rubber arm type. The problem is it didn't work. Had those guys pitched like expected, I don't think we would have nearly as much fault with 'The Trade'. I can't say he made a mistake in that honestly. I'm at times critical, and I do have my concerns about 'the plan' he might have, but I can't fault him for the thing most everyone seems to dislike him for here. It didn't work, there is no denying that, but it also wasn't a bad idea either. We dumped two solid, though not spectacular players for two young pitchers and a prospect.

I don't doubt he's out there trying hard to improve this team in the constraints of whatever budget we have.

Hell I don't even doubt that there IS a plan, I just wish I knew what it was. He's under no obligation to tell us though. Maybe that makes him a better GM than we've had in decades [not that its hard to accomplish] or maybe it makes him something else entirely, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Doesn't mean I won't be frustrated with him in the interim.

I completely agree, except for one component. The real key here is that it hasn't worked Yet, people forget that these guys (Maj and Bray) are still plenty young enough to be what we would like out of them. And if they turn out to be above average (I say they will/are) then there are no losers in the deal. If Either Harris or Thompson can be solid to above (also decent chance of happening) then we win that deal IMO. I will be closely monitoring these 2 for the next year +. Thompson already has shown me a little something.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 05:11 PM
Yet, people forget that these guys (Maj and Bray) are still plenty young enough to be what we would like out of them. The issue is there is nothing in their track record or stuff to suggest that either will be special as a reliever. And relievers like that are simply replaceable parts.

pedro
12-04-2006, 05:15 PM
I'm still not that concerned about the loss of Lopez. He's a lousy SS who can't hit lefties. It would have been nice to hang onto Kearns though.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 05:21 PM
I'm still not that concerned about the loss of Lopez. He's a lousy SS who can't hit lefties.... and had Boras as an agent. Every fron office in baseball knows what it means when a player has Boras as his represenstative.

Trading Kearns for a relief pitcher(unless the guy had lights out stuff like Broxton) is just ludicrous.

Wheelhouse
12-04-2006, 05:25 PM
I'm of the camp that says the trade will work out on the Reds side--if Majewski heals and Bray develops. Then again it may be a wash if Kearns shows up to ST weighing 500 lbs. and Lopez returns to the Twilight Zone. Both are possibilities.

vaticanplum
12-04-2006, 05:29 PM
Team with a capital T!! :lol:

I'm very surprised that hasn't been picked up on this forum, unless I missed it.

Kc61
12-04-2006, 05:32 PM
The Reds opened their pocket books and replaced Lopez. They can replace Kearns too. In this era, you can fix up trade losses by spending.

Bray seems to be a good young reliever. No problem with him. Harris will fill a role. Clayton wasn't helpful but was a minor part of the deal. He wasn't staying here.

The whole issue is Majewski. He was the veteran reliever. He was going to be the eighth inning guy night after night. If he pitched as intended, the trade would be just fine.

The problem is he was ineffective and hurt. This is the reason the trade has failed so far. And while the Nats probably weren't forthcoming enough, Krivsky has to take some blame.

If Majewski turns it around, this will be ok. But after last season, I'm afraid to watch him try.

In the meantime, the Reds really need to do some business down in Orlando. I'm not looking for superstar names, but another starting pitcher is a must. I'm waiting.

Bonzo
12-04-2006, 05:42 PM
Did anyone else notice Danys Baez is getting paid $6 million per year to be the set up man for the Orioles? It would seem that the price of relief pitching certainly has gone up, making "The Trade" at least a bit better for the Reds. :D

KoryMac5
12-04-2006, 06:50 PM
It's hard to think that Krivsky is doing a great job when baseball officials are so often criticizing his moves. Who knows how this thing will actually shake out?

I always love the guy who is so forthcoming with information but than asks the reporter to not give his name. Makes you wonder how much is fact and how much is fiction.

redsfanmia
12-04-2006, 07:06 PM
I'm still not that concerned about the loss of Lopez. He's a lousy SS who can't hit lefties. It would have been nice to hang onto Kearns though.

Kearns was not going to thrive here, it just wasnt going to happen for him here. I liked the trade when it happened, and i like it now.

dunner13
12-04-2006, 07:14 PM
Bray has the potential to be a very good future closer, we had this lefty guy named BJ Ryan who we traded away a few years ago for a trade that seemed great for us at the time. At the time this trade may seem great for washington but in a few years if bray develops it could be lopsidded in our favor.
Majewski was a top setup man before he got hurt. When healthy he has easily been as good as baez.
Harris could be a solid starting 2B but obviously we dont need one so he can be a very good bench player and maybe be traded later for some pieces we need.
Thompson is a pretty solid pitching prospect. If he develops he could be a #2/3 starter some day.

Kearns is an average outfielder and away from GABP he is below average. Lopez has a nice bat but he has no business playing at shortstop.

dsmith421
12-04-2006, 07:26 PM
Why should this completely speculative article assuage any doubts I have about Krivsky? Any boob can call Dave Dombrowski and inquire about Bonderman's availability. Actually acquiring him without being fleeced, that's another story altogether.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 08:04 PM
In this era, you can fix up trade losses by spending. ... but it is a lot easier to fix average relievers than everyday players. The Reds signed Gonzalez and that was absolutely bottom feeding.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 08:06 PM
I'm of the camp that says the trade will work out on the Reds side--if Majewski heals and Bray develops.
... of course there isn't any evidence to suggest they will ever be anything but middling relievers.

flyer85
12-04-2006, 08:09 PM
Did anyone else notice Danys Baez is getting paid $6 million per year to be the set up man for the Orioles? It would seem that the price of relief pitching certainly has gone up, making "The Trade" at least a bit better for the Reds. :Dlot of evidence to suggest that Baez is a superior pitcher than either Bray or Majik and none to suggest that Gonzalez is superior to Lopez. And Kearns is not going to be replaced by a player anywhere near his level through a free agent signing.

fearofpopvol1
12-04-2006, 11:10 PM
How about this deal: Bonderman for Bailey...straight up. Would you do it? I would.

edabbs44
12-04-2006, 11:11 PM
How about this deal: Bonderman for Bailey...straight up. Would you do it? I would.

Nope....Bonderman will be commanding $$$ soon. I'll take a shot on Homer.

fearofpopvol1
12-04-2006, 11:22 PM
Nope....Bonderman will be commanding $$$ soon. I'll take a shot on Homer.

I'll take someone that nearly shuts out the Yankees over 9 innings in the ALCS anyday over a guy that may (or may not) succeed. That's not to say I don't think Bailey will, but proven talent is far more valuable. Bonderman is young and while his going rate is higher than Bailey's, it's not like Bailey's pricetag will remain slim if he succeeds. Either way, you have to pay.

Topcat
12-05-2006, 12:00 AM
... and had Boras as an agent. Every fron office in baseball knows what it means when a player has Boras as his represenstative.

Trading Kearns for a relief pitcher(unless the guy had lights out stuff like Broxton) is just ludicrous.


Yeah that was going to happen. Broxton is who the main name is in on ManRam going to the Dodgers and the Dodgers have stated that will not happen. Sources you ask? Google away my friend google away.

Topcat
12-05-2006, 12:18 AM
lot of evidence to suggest that Baez is a superior pitcher than either Bray or Majik and none to suggest that Gonzalez is superior to Lopez. And Kearns is not going to be replaced by a player anywhere near his level through a free agent signing.

Evidence shows that Gonzo is a far superior fielder than Lopez and it is common knowledge to just about any educated baseball fan.

Handofdeath
12-05-2006, 01:28 AM
lot of evidence to suggest that Baez is a superior pitcher than either Bray or Majik and none to suggest that Gonzalez is superior to Lopez. And Kearns is not going to be replaced by a player anywhere near his level through a free agent signing.

Since Majik was hurt during 2006 let's go back to 2005.

Baez 72 IP 5-4 41 Saves 2.86 ERA .674 OPS against in his 5th full season
Majik 86 IP 4-4 24 Holds 2.93 ERA .661 OPS against in his 1st full season

That was Baez's best year and Majik's 1st. Bray just pitched his 1st season in 2006 and at 23 had a 4.09 ERA.

Lopez is a 1 year wonder. His stats have absolutely nosedived and he has no skills defensively. At least Gonzalez is great with the glove.

cincyinco
12-05-2006, 01:32 AM
I'll take someone that nearly shuts out the Yankees over 9 innings in the ALCS anyday over a guy that may (or may not) succeed. That's not to say I don't think Bailey will, but proven talent is far more valuable. Bonderman is young and while his going rate is higher than Bailey's, it's not like Bailey's pricetag will remain slim if he succeeds. Either way, you have to pay.

Right, but with Bonderman you have to pay sooner. For a team like the Reds, this is a big factor. If money wasn't involved, then I'd take Bonderman everyday of the week right now, but thats just not the reality of the situation. The Reds need young, cheap, effective players that they can control for years - Bonderman is young, but he's about to get very expensive, and he's nearing the FA market.

RedEye
12-05-2006, 01:05 PM
I completely agree, except for one component. The real key here is that it hasn't worked Yet, people forget that these guys (Maj and Bray) are still plenty young enough to be what we would like out of them. And if they turn out to be above average (I say they will/are) then there are no losers in the deal. If Either Harris or Thompson can be solid to above (also decent chance of happening) then we win that deal IMO. I will be closely monitoring these 2 for the next year +. Thompson already has shown me a little something.

Completely disagree. Whether or not the two relievers become good one day is irrelevant. The reason The Trade sucks is because Kearns and Lopez were valuable trading chips... and neither of them landed the return value that they could have had Krivsky been more patient. True, Maj and Bray could turn out to be decent. It's just that Krivsky could have had a lot more in return. Now we're left with very little in the way of trading commodities, and we're feeling it this offseason. With a reputation as a guy who is willing to get fleeced, WK probably can't get honest offers for the few commodities he does have. So, because he's anxious to show some effort for Castellini, Kriv starts to sign spare parts that no one else wants (Stanton, Moeller, Loretta). It's enough to make a guy want to throw up. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss DanO.

terminator
12-05-2006, 01:29 PM
So, because he's anxious to show some effort for Castellini, Kriv starts to sign spare parts that no one else wants (Stanton, Moeller, Loretta). It's enough to make a guy want to throw up. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss DanO.
I'd wait until April 1st to say the same thing, but right now it's how I feel about it too. He still has five months to make some moves that will close our run differential. So far, given that Aurilia is gone and the signings have been marginal players, I'm guessing the projected 2007 run differential is a bit worse than the 2006 Reds. I'm patient, but without mortgaging the future by giving up prospects or spending a lot of money in the next five months, I don't see him even being able to get our run differential to zero let alone to a playoff-type number. But he still has five more months to do something about 2007.

MikeS21
12-05-2006, 02:19 PM
Completely disagree. Whether or not the two relievers become good one day is irrelevant. The reason The Trade sucks is because Kearns and Lopez were valuable trading chips... and neither of them landed the return value that they could have had Krivsky been more patient. True, Maj and Bray could turn out to be decent. It's just that Krivsky could have had a lot more in return. Now we're left with very little in the way of trading commodities, and we're feeling it this offseason. With a reputation as a guy who is willing to get fleeced, WK probably can't get honest offers for the few commodities he does have. So, because he's anxious to show some effort for Castellini, Kriv starts to sign spare parts that no one else wants (Stanton, Moeller, Loretta). It's enough to make a guy want to throw up. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to miss DanO.
I'm not sure I agree at all with this.

Keep in mind that the first part of last season, Lopez was proving game by game that 2005 was a fluke - both offensively and defensively. 2005 was his career year. He's young and MIGHT improve, but his trade value was diminishing almost by the hour. Had Lopez stayed, I'm pretty sure he would have eventually disgressed to the point of being benched in favor of Aurillia and/or Phillips.

Kearns had a GREAT half season his rookie year. But his performance since then has been, at best, average. What precious little trade value Kearns may have allegedly possessed was based on nothing more than old Baseball America reports and hype. No GM in their right mind would give up anything of value for Kearns. I wonder if the only reason Bowden traded for him was to help rehabilitate Bowden's reputation for making wise picks in the amatuer draft. Nothing in Kearn's actual performance merited keeping him here - hoping he would live up to his potential.

I do not believe believe all those silly reports after the fact where some unnamed baseball "source" said, "We offered more, but Krivsky turned us down." I hear that after every trade. I heard Bowden say it more than once when a trade went down between other teams. "We offered a better deal."

Like it or not, the price for middle relief pitching went up. And unfortunately, we feel shafted because our "All-Star" shortstop, who was playing as bad a a second string high-schooler, and our "all hype" 1st Round pick was the price for average middle relievers.

TStuck
12-05-2006, 02:32 PM
Well said Mike. You wrote exactly what goes through my mind every time I see another post sounding off on "the trade". To hear people raving on, you'd think we traded a couple of perennial batting champ/gold glove/all stars and got a case of jock straps in return. The point is, Kearns and Lopez's perceived "trade value" has assumed epic proportions and frankly doesn't jive with the actual output I saw from them over the previous 3-5 years.

Team Clark
12-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Well said Mike. You wrote exactly what goes through my mind every time I see another post sounding off on "the trade". To hear people raving on, you'd think we traded a couple of perennial batting champ/gold glove/all stars and got a case of jock straps in return. The point is, Kearns and Lopez's perceived "trade value" has assumed epic proportions and frankly doesn't jive with the actual output I saw from them over the previous 3-5 years.

:clap:

Although I would have liked to see them keep FeLo for at least one more season I love your post.

Johnny Footstool
12-05-2006, 02:51 PM
Haven't we already covered the fact that Kearns was/is an above-average outfielder, both offensively and defensively?

Lopez in 2005 was All-Star caliber, way above average. His 2006 was a regression, but he's still slightly above average. We've discussed this on many, many threads.

Funny how people laud Majewski and Bray for being young, but forget that Kearns and Lopez are only 26 and have not reached their prime yet.

It's also funny how people are speculating that Majweski will get better, but Lopez was a flash in the pan. That's some nice psychology -- convince yourself that what you have is better than what you gave up.

flyer85
12-05-2006, 03:00 PM
Evidence shows that Gonzo is a far superior fielder than Lopez and it is common knowledge to just about any educated baseball fan.but as an all around player, he sucks and that is more than common knowledge, it's exactly why he was on the free agent market two years running. Teams get first hand knowledge that he doesn't measure when offense is thrown in.

flyer85
12-05-2006, 03:02 PM
It's also funny how people are speculating that Majweski will get better, but Lopez was a flash in the pan. That's some nice psychology -- convince yourself that what you have is better than what you gave up.Rationalization is a wonderful thing.

TStuck
12-05-2006, 03:37 PM
Haven't we already covered the fact that Kearns was/is an above-average outfielder, both offensively and defensively?

Lopez in 2005 was All-Star caliber, way above average. His 2006 was a regression, but he's still slightly above average. We've discussed this on many, many threads.

Funny how people laud Majewski and Bray for being young, but forget that Kearns and Lopez are only 26 and have not reached their prime yet.

It's also funny how people are speculating that Majweski will get better, but Lopez was a flash in the pan. That's some nice psychology -- convince yourself that what you have is better than what you gave up.

Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.....you sure put an awful lot of words in my mouth for such a short post that I made.

And Flyer - I'm not rationalizing the first iota.

My stance is this. People who say that this was a bad trade are basing their opinions on the potential affixed to Kearns and Lopez as much as those who defend the trade base it on the potential affixed to Maj and Bray. There were no established superstars involved here and everyone involved had some baggage to some extent.

I'm not trying to lecture anyone because I know that we all realize trading is not an exact science. Sometimes you get the oil well and sometimes you get the shaft. It's a calculated risk. This one didn't return the immediate dividends that Kriv hoped for, so now all that can happen is hope to realize the longer term potential of the players obtained. Please don't fault those who want to move on and focus on making the most of what the Reds have instead of wringing their hands over what's already happened.

CrackerJack
12-05-2006, 03:50 PM
Baseball prospectus:


So far, Wayne Krivsky's not making friends. "He's signing guys no one wants and pushing the bar up." I can't print the rest of the quote from an NL official.


Sounds pretty accurate to me.

RedEye
12-05-2006, 04:02 PM
Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.....you sure put an awful lot of words in my mouth for such a short post that I made.

And Flyer - I'm not rationalizing the first iota.

My stance is this. People who say that this was a bad trade are basing their opinions on the potential affixed to Kearns and Lopez as much as those who defend the trade base it on the potential affixed to Maj and Bray. There were no established superstars involved here and everyone involved had some baggage to some extent.

I'm not trying to lecture anyone because I know that we all realize trading is not an exact science. Sometimes you get the oil well and sometimes you get the shaft. It's a calculated risk. This one didn't return the immediate dividends that Kriv hoped for, so now all that can happen is hope to realize the longer term potential of the players obtained. Please don't fault those who want to move on and focus on making the most of what the Reds have instead of wringing their hands over what's already happened.

There were some substantiated rumors that there was a Kearns-Westbrook deal on the table earlier in the season. Since Kearns was having a decent 2006 when he was traded (much better than his injury-plagued 2005), I would assume that his value was at least that much. I'd MUCH rather have Lopez and Westbrook right now than Maj and Bray.

The problem with arguing about 'potential' is that it ignores the realities of trade value in MLB. The problem with acquiring two 'young' relievers for two key cogs in your offense is that relief pitching is one of the cheapest areas a GM can upgrade. Young OF with pop and young SS with good bats are worth more.

Yes, dominant closer types (aka Trevor Hoffman, etc) are hard to come by, but you can find the other pieces of your bullpen in other places. Many teams bring up young starters with good stuff and try them out in bullpen roles. The Reds had at least four or five candidates who were also 'young' arms (Dumatrait, etc.) and could have been brought up before unloading two promising young players. I'm sure they would have done at least as well as our two 'young' relievers we got from the Nats. The other place to acquire relievers is off the veteran scrap heap. Past regimes did this quite well, I believe, but Wayne seems determined to pay top dollar for these veterans right AFTER they've been reclaimed (or right before they get injured). It's enough to make me bang my head against the wall. Apparently it was also enough to tick off one of their long-term, respected FO employees.

In accepting the Washington deal, Wayne also did some damage to his reputation around the league. He's like that kid at the baseball card trade who just gave away a McGwire Team USA RC for an Eric Davis '86 Topps and a Don Mattingly '87 Topps (okay, I know, the McGwire card ain't much now, but you get my meaning... the USA RC has MUCH MORE potential value!) Worst of all, he traded the card to the snotty Bowden kid in the corner who always lowballs everyone else. Now, all the other kids (Orioles, Tigers, etc.) are coming up to Wayne and offering him crap offers. It's going to take awhile before he gets their respect back... that's just how it works.

People, look at the facts! Wayne got lucky on a few good moves at the beginning of his tenure (the thought the Dunn could have been moved for Arroyo instead of Pena is downright nauseating). Those moves gave him a large fan base here since many were frustrated after DanO's methodical plodding. Since then, we have absolutely ZERO reason to believe he is savvy enough to build a team that can contend, let alone go to the playoffs. If the Reds contended last year, it was because of two lucky moves and a talent base that was already here. All that Wayne did during the season was dismantle that base and hope for more luck. He lost his bet.

I want to be optimistic, I really do. I want to move on from The Trade, too. I thought WK would bring us a new day of Reds glory when he signed on.

But folks, a serious amount of hand-wringing is in order here. No, Wayne has not yet committed the ultimate sin of his tenure (as DanO did with the Milton signing). Fact remains that until he proves me wrong, The Trade is the main evidence I have for Wayne's skill as a GM. It is still his signature move, and not one of the moves he's made since have offered anything to pull us out of its shadow.

Johnny Footstool
12-05-2006, 04:07 PM
My stance is this. People who say that this was a bad trade are basing their opinions on the potential affixed to Kearns and Lopez as much as those who defend the trade base it on the potential affixed to Maj and Bray. There were no established superstars involved here and everyone involved had some baggage to some extent.

No one said Kearns and Lopez were established superstars. What they were/are was/is established above-average everyday players. That alone makes it a bad trade.

When you start adding in the potential of all parties involved, the trade gets uglier and uglier.

BuckeyeRedleg
12-05-2006, 04:09 PM
How many runs over the course of a season will Gonzalez save, defensively, over a Lopez at SS?

I would bet that would be similar to the number of runs that Lopez would produce offensively as compared with the sub .700 OPS Gonzo.

So, if it's a wash and I would bet it is that or even a slight edge to Lopez, what is so bad about keeping the cheaper 26-year old that can even be moved to another position (CF, 2B) if need be?

MikeS21
12-05-2006, 04:10 PM
Haven't we already covered the fact that Kearns was/is an above-average outfielder, both offensively and defensively?

Lopez in 2005 was All-Star caliber, way above average. His 2006 was a regression, but he's still slightly above average. We've discussed this on many, many threads.

Funny how people laud Majewski and Bray for being young, but forget that Kearns and Lopez are only 26 and have not reached their prime yet.

It's also funny how people are speculating that Majweski will get better, but Lopez was a flash in the pan. That's some nice psychology -- convince yourself that what you have is better than what you gave up.
No one has convinced me that either Kearns or Lopez would have improved. Nor did I mention Majewski or Bray in my post. Like others, my very first impression when I heard about "The Trade," was that it was a knee-jerk desperation move. But after thinking about it and realizing that our feelings were hurt mainly because of Lopez's All-Star status and Kearn's 1st Round Pick status, I can't say that I fault WayneK when you consider the nightly meltdown of the Reds' bullpen at the time of "The Trade."

To me, the main question I have about Krivsky concerns not who he got in return, but why he didn't demand a complete physical for Majewski BEFORE before the trade was completed. Is there some kind of baseball rule that says "buyer beware" when it comes to trades? That is the issue that I hope Castelinni has grilled Krivsky on.

RedEye
12-05-2006, 04:15 PM
No one has convinced me that either Kearns or Lopez would have improved.

Even without improving, Austin and Felipe were worth more than Maj and Bray. Heck, Austin is a SOLID ML OF. Right now, he's already a good fielder who gets on base at a decent clip and hits with some power. I'd MUCH rather have him than Craig Monroe or Craig Wilson, who seem to be the RedsZone flavors of the month.

Felipe's defense is the one significant area in need of improvement, but he's a very good offensive shortshop--even if he's stealing bases instead of hitting homers. Freel + Lopez in the one-two spots in the order was a pleasure to watch each night. Perhaps he doesn't have the range to cover SS, but you still have to get more back for him than we did.

I can't wait to see how all you folks rationalize Wayne's logic when he flips Adam Dunn for Scott Linebrink and change. I really can't wait.

terminator
12-05-2006, 04:33 PM
Like it or not, the price for middle relief pitching went up. And unfortunately, we feel shafted because our "All-Star" shortstop, who was playing as bad a a second string high-schooler, and our "all hype" 1st Round pick was the price for average middle relievers.
I know we're beating a dead horse, but Wickman, Williamson, Stanton, Guardado, Mota, Schoenweiss, F. Cordero and Cormier tell us that middle relief prices had not gone through the roof. I'm sure I'm forgetting some others too. Three of those were Krivsky's acquisitions and regardless of whether I would have done those trade I feel safe saying those were more or less reasonably priced trades.

RedEye
12-05-2006, 04:37 PM
I know we're beating a dead horse, but Wickman, Williamson, Stanton, Guardado, Mota, Schoenweiss, F. Cordero and Cormier tell us that middle relief prices had not gone through the roof. I'm sure I'm forgetting some others too. Three of those were Krivsky's acquisitions and regardless of whether I would have done those trade I feel safe saying those were more or less reasonably priced trades.

Absolutely. Good point.

pedro
12-05-2006, 05:38 PM
Even without improving, Austin and Felipe were worth more than Maj and Bray. Heck, Austin is a SOLID ML OF. Right now, he's already a good fielder who gets on base at a decent clip and hits with some power. I'd MUCH rather have him than Craig Monroe or Craig Wilson, who seem to be the RedsZone flavors of the month.

Felipe's defense is the one significant area in need of improvement, but he's a very good offensive shortshop--even if he's stealing bases instead of hitting homers. Freel + Lopez in the one-two spots in the order was a pleasure to watch each night. Perhaps he doesn't have the range to cover SS, but you still have to get more back for him than we did.

I can't wait to see how all you folks rationalize Wayne's logic when he flips Adam Dunn for Scott Linebrink and change. I really can't wait.

Lopez isn't even a "very good" offensive SS. He may be slightly above average, but certainly not elite.

Last year his OPS was .739 which isn't "very good" at all. He does get on base at a decent clip which is his saving grace as a player IMO.

Cooper
12-05-2006, 05:41 PM
FeLo created more runs than Gonzo saved last year--that's for sure.

IIRC, Felo had 17 or 18 win shares while Gonzo had 9. Now, i'm not sure if win shares are correct in how it evaluates defense, but ....that's a heck of a difference.

edabbs44
12-05-2006, 05:43 PM
I know we're beating a dead horse, but Wickman, Williamson, Stanton, Guardado, Mota, Schoenweiss, F. Cordero and Cormier tell us that middle relief prices had not gone through the roof. I'm sure I'm forgetting some others too. Three of those were Krivsky's acquisitions and regardless of whether I would have done those trade I feel safe saying those were more or less reasonably priced trades.

Please tell me how Wickman, Williamson, Mota and Cordero prove to us that middle relief prices have gone thru the roof. And don't forget that Wickman and Cordero are closers.

The other ones, yes, they sure do show how prices have risen. But it's only because of WayneMan.

noskill27
12-05-2006, 09:47 PM
Sounds like Jimbo is giving them the quotes.

Exactly what I was thinking

Johnny Footstool
12-05-2006, 11:09 PM
No one has convinced me that either Kearns or Lopez would have improved. Nor did I mention Majewski or Bray in my post.

My original post wasn't directed specifically at you. That's why I didn't quote you. I also didn't quote the people whose posts did mention Bray and Majewski. It was a general comment about a general attitude.

terminator
12-06-2006, 08:43 AM
Please tell me how Wickman, Williamson, Mota and Cordero prove to us that middle relief prices have gone thru the roof. And don't forget that Wickman and Cordero are closers.

You misread it. I said they showed us that the prices had NOT gone through the roof. Even Wayne himself was able to get other "affordable" relievers in Guardado, Schoenweiss, Cormier and Franklin.

edabbs44
12-06-2006, 08:53 AM
You misread it. I said they showed us that the prices had NOT gone through the roof. Even Wayne himself was able to get other "affordable" relievers in Guardado, Schoenweiss, Cormier and Franklin.

WHOOPS! Never mind...