Departing staffer takes shots at Krivsky

[dabvu2498]

Departing Reds staffer takes shots at Krivsky
Longtime scout Barton says Cincy GM wasn't listening to his advice.
By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Tuesday, December 05, 2006

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. — When Wayne Krivsky became general manager of the Cincinnati Reds in February, one of the main reasons was the support he received from two members of owner Bob Castellini's screening committee — special assistants Larry Barton Jr. and Gene Bennett.

As was reported at the time by the Dayton Daily News, Castellini had decided on special adviser Jim Beattie to be the GM, but the next day Barton and Bennett made impassioned cases for Krivsky, and Castellini changed his mind.

Now, 10 months later, Barton pulled a Johnny PayCheck and told Krivsky, "Take this job and shove it, I don't work here anymore."

Barton, one of two senior special assistants in charge of pro scouting, was offered a contract when his old one expired Oct. 31. But he quit after working for the Reds for 38 years — since Bob Howsam hired him in 1968.

"Wayne has changed," said Barton, confirming the Beattie/Krivsky scenario. "After what went on this year, I just had enough. Wayne isn't the person I thought he was."

Barton's main complaint is that Krivsky wasn't listening to his advice, especially the trade of Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to the Washington Nationals for shortstop Royce Clayton and pitchers Gary Majewski and Bill Bray.

"Wayne came to me in the spring and said he could get (pitcher) Bronson Arroyo for an outfielder — Wily Mo Pena, Adam Dunn or Austin Kearns," said Barton. "Turns out Boston wanted Wily Mo, and that was fine because we had an extra outfielder."

But when Krivsky said he was trading another outfielder, Kearns, and a 25-year-old All-Star shortstop (Lopez) for an old shortstop (Clayton) and a couple of pitchers, "I told him I didn't like the deal and asked who was going to play shortstop next year, and he told me, 'I'm not worried about next year.' "

Barton said when the Reds were ready to acquire pitcher Eddie Guardado from Seattle, a scout told him Guardado had a bad arm that could blow any time, "But Wayne said he had talked to his agent and was told Guardado just had a bad back and his arm was OK."

Krivsky made the deal, and Guardado underwent Tommy John ligament transplant surgery in his elbow Sept. 8 and isn't expected to be able to pitch until the middle of next season.

Barton didn't agree with the Reds carrying three catchers all year in 2006, "Then (Krivsky) trades Jason LaRue, but signs Chad Moeller. So are they going to go with three catchers again? They need pitching, not three catchers."

Reds officials were told Barton retired, but he said, "I didn't retire. I'm not finished. I'll resurface with a job somewhere in baseball. I just got tired of fighting with him on the deals he made late last season."

Krivsky didn't want to get into a word battle and said, "I appreciate and respect everything Larry Barton has done for 38 years in the organization, and it was my understanding he was going into retirement, and I accepted that retirement message."




Find this article at:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2006/12/04/ddn120506reds.html

[edabbs44]

Could just be sour grapes, but interesting nonetheless.

[Team Clark]

Out with the Old...... I seriously doubt he is the last to go.

[wheels]

I think a look at the bigger picture is in order here.

The guy brought up some valid points, and they were summarily dismissed by Krivsky.

It says more about Wayne than it does Barton.

[redsmetz]

I think a look at the bigger picture is in order here.

The guy brought up some valid points, and they were summarily dismissed by Krivsky.

It says more about Wayne than it does Barton.

You may have a point, but then again, the story broke in the Dayton Daily News with its old hand, Hal McCoy. Could be Hal grinding the axe. We'll see.

[NJReds]

Not a good sign. And with some of the rumors buzzing around, rather than looking forward to trades/signings, I'm starting to fear the words "the Reds have an announcement..."

[terminator]

Sour grapes . . . and accurate points.

[Spring~Fields]

It has been reported that the general manager has made 40 some moves. People (fans have eyes to observe and to research) were disappointed with the moves or outcomes that the moves produced, seems plausible that staff members might disagree with his decisions also, some of those moves did look like someone wasn’t listening somewhere. Wait and see, but, don't forget what you already know.

[flyer85]

Could just be sour grapes, but interesting nonetheless.... or it could be the truth.

[NJReds]

... or it could be the truth.

It could be. And there probably is a lot of truth to what he's saying. It's also a no class move to spout off about your employer on the way out the door.

[M2]

On one hand Barton's right. Krivsky fumbled in the middle of 2006 and there's no getting around it. His deals, if anything, made the team worse down the stretch. The Reds were 45-44 with a -15 run differential before the All-Star break. Then Krivsky dealt Kearns and Lopez and the team went 35-38 with a -36 run differential.

On the other hand, I've always been suspect of what Barton brought to the table other than a father who was in the game.

So, while Barton may be able to point out what Wayne Krivsky did wrong last summer (not hard to do because it's fairly obvious), I'm not convinced Barton's the sort who'd have been able to offer a better alternative.

[TStuck]

Out with the Old...... I seriously doubt he is the last to go.

TC - not looking for a character assasination here, but is this a good event for the Reds long term? Barton seems to be one of those guys whose name is spoken with a hushed reverence by some, but is this a case of being a good time to inject some new blood in the Reds?

[Cooper]

I don't think it should be over looked ....Barton is a long time employee who advocated for Wayne K to get the job. So this is not like an employee who is a pain to get along with. He'd been around a long time.

It does make me wonder about Wayne K's ego. Sometimes when people rise to the level of management that Wayne K has --they get a little grandiose about things. Wayne has had a history of being around well run clubs and he may have thought that it was his own golden touch that led to their success. When the trade was made Wayne had a decent little run of pick ups that went his way. I'm wondering if he thought he could do no wrong -thinking along the lines that the GM job was easier than he thought.

Same thing happened to Ray Knight. When he took over for Davey Johnson, he made it quite clear to the media that managing was easy and he would do great things with the position. He even went out of his way to put down Johnson (one of the stranger things i have ever heard-there was no need to do such a thing). Ray had a case of narcissism and grandiosity that the karma gods took care of in short order. Sad thing was he never got over himself and to this day believes he did everything right....while everyone else just got lucky. Look up the director Peter Bogdonavich to see another example.

I'm hoping Wayne grows out of this. My guess is Barton doesn't believe he will.

[flyer85]

I am not lamenting the loss of Barton. It is somewhat encouraging to hear that not everyone thought dealing Kearns and Lopez for flotsam and jetsam was a good idea.

[M2]

Coop, it's also possible that Krivsky determined that Barton was representative of an in-house culture that needs to change. In general, I'm for a general reprogramming of the franchise DNA.

[RFS62]

Coop, it's also possible that Krivsky determined that Barton was representative of an in-house culture that needs to change. In general, I'm for a general reprogramming of the franchise DNA.


Me too.

[texasdave]

Coop, it's also possible that Krivsky determined that Barton was representative of an in-house culture that needs to change. In general, I'm for a general reprogramming of the franchise DNA.

If Krivsky wanted Barton gone for whatever reason then why did he offer him a new contract on October 31st? Offering a person you want to get rid of a contract does not seem like a very efficient method of cleaning house.

[M2]

If Krivsky wanted Barton gone for whatever reason then why did he offer him a new contract on October 31st? Offering a person you want to get rid of a contract does not seem like a very efficient method of cleaning house.

Depends on the contract and the job he was offered. He might have been offered a put-out-to-pasture position.

[Cooper]

I kinda doubt it this was a necessary re-programming move...only because Barton was there for 38 years. He went through a goodly number of GM's and survived them all. This sounds like the type of employee who gets along with others. They prolly could have isolated him and just let nature take it's course (maybe that's what happened).

I'll still stick to the "grandiosity" theory from which the Kearns/Lopez trade was made. It's the therapist in me.

[paulrichjr]

It goes back to what I have thought since Day 1. If John Allen likes the guy then I have a problem with him. I know that seems a little shortsighted but I honestly feel that he was the Midas touch that drove this baby into the ground.

I cannot see how WayneK fans can just dismiss this guy without saying at least that he is right. WayneK has made some really dumb moves and I'm afraid by the end of this season we will have a list long enough to prove that he was not the bright spot in Minnesota.

[Wheelhouse]

This is all very simple: ripping Krivsky all but guarantees him a job with the Nationals. Very smart tactical move on Barton's part. Anytime someone leaves an organization it is because of disagreements like this. Nothing unusual here.

[texasdave]

Depends on the contract and the job he was offered. He might have been offered a put-out-to-pasture position.

This is true enough. However, from reading the article, I gathered that Barton was quitting because he was tired of 'butting heads' with Krivsky; not that he was upset with the position offered. IMO.

[traderumor]

I don't think it should be over looked ....Barton is a long time employee who advocated for Wayne K to get the job. So this is not like an employee who is a pain to get along with. He'd been around a long time.

It does make me wonder about Wayne K's ego. Sometimes when people rise to the level of management that Wayne K has --they get a little grandiose about things. Wayne has had a history of being around well run clubs and he may have thought that it was his own golden touch that led to their success. When the trade was made Wayne had a decent little run of pick ups that went his way. I'm wondering if he thought he could do no wrong -thinking along the lines that the GM job was easier than he thought.

Same thing happened to Ray Knight. When he took over for Davey Johnson, he made it quite clear to the media that managing was easy and he would do great things with the position. He even went out of his way to put down Johnson (one of the stranger things i have ever heard-there was no need to do such a thing). Ray had a case of narcissism and grandiosity that the karma gods took care of in short order. Sad thing was he never got over himself and to this day believes he did everything right....while everyone else just got lucky. Look up the director Peter Bogdonavich to see another example.

I'm hoping Wayne grows out of this. My guess is Barton doesn't believe he will.Why doesn't it make you wonder about Barton's ego? Why wasn't Barton as outraged at DanO's moves, or lack thereof since he was obviously a holdover? My guess is that the answers to these questions are Barton didn't have Wayne's ear as he was accustomed to having GM's ears and that he was not outraged at DanO's moves because he probably hung on his every word, which scares me a bit. Maybe as M2 pointed out, he was a part of the problem and not a solution after all.

[lollipopcurve]

We know only what we read in the papers. But, comparing Barton's and Krivsky's quotes, I think I know who's worried about looking good.

[M2]

This is true enough. However, from reading the article, I gathered that Barton was quitting because he was tired of 'butting heads' with Krivsky; not that he was upset with the position offered. IMO.

My take from it is he was ticked off about something and it wasn't because the team traded Kearns and Lopez over his objections (as the team has surely made other deals with which he disagreed in previous years).

He was ticked off enough to put in some public parting digs (something that I don't have a problem with as I've never understood why individuals should be deferential to corporations) and I doubt he did more than graze over the real reasons why he was that ticked off.

Just a side thought here, but I remember Dave Collins and RON OESTER! waving torches on their way out of town. Some of the marketing folks made a stink last winter too. Makes you wonder if that's all part of the same pathology.

[Team Clark]

TC - not looking for a character assasination here, but is this a good event for the Reds long term? Barton seems to be one of those guys whose name is spoken with a hushed reverence by some, but is this a case of being a good time to inject some new blood in the Reds?

I would never presume to rag on Larry Barton. On all accounts a good guy and certainly has achieved some measure of success in the game.

I say "out with the old" because of the turmoil and back biting that has gone on in the Reds FO in years past. I'm not supposed to give "professional" or "inside" knowledge on the board so I will only speak of info I know has been in the paper or I'll just speak in general terms.

You can't have enemies in your camp. You can not have ego problems either. Case in point would be Brad Kullman. I do not think Larry Barton was an enemy so much as a casualty. It was Barton's job to give an opinion. Maybe he was right sometimes maybe he wasn't. If you do not like the way you are treated then you leave. That's what he did. We've all done that in one way or another. You like the new boss because he thinks like you and he really likes you. Then he tries to implement changes and doesn't like EVERYTHING you say. Ohhh well now he's a jerk. GM's make mistakes. Scouts and Player Development personnel are not infallible either.

M2 really hit the nail on the head IMO. Maybe Wayne just did not feel comfortable with Barton's advice. I see the quote about retirement. That's probably contrived. I also noticed that Barton did not mention the 10 other deals that came across the table that maybe he himself was wrong. No way for us to know. Seemed like a slanted article.

Wayne, from what I gather, does not want "Yes" men around. What I find strange is that Barton really got along well with Bowden. Reminds me of Burbank's skit "All my Bengals".

[Unassisted]

I want to dismiss this article as sour grapes from and a parting gift for someone who has probably been a dependable inside source for Hal for decades. But I'm disturbed by the characterization of the big trade.

I had reconciled myself with the notion that the Kearns and Lopez deal was as much about payroll flexibility in '07 as it was improving the team's pitching. Thus I find it unsettling that Krivsky is quoted by Barton as saying the deal was not at all focused on '07. :eek:

I'm a very patient fan, but as I was reading this article, I heard a metallic clanging sound... which turned out to be Krivsky's honeymoon halo hitting the floor.

[Team Clark]

If Krivsky wanted Barton gone for whatever reason then why did he offer him a new contract on October 31st? Offering a person you want to get rid of a contract does not seem like a very efficient method of cleaning house.

Depends on what was "IN" that contract.

[M2]

We know only what we read in the papers.

We know only about ourselves and what we read in the papers. Don't you know ink washes out easier than blood?

[lollipopcurve]

We know only about ourselves and what we read in the papers.

Oh boy, reader response theory meets Redszone. Not pretty!

[Johnny Footstool]

So, while Barton may be able to point out what Wayne Krivsky did wrong last summer (not hard to do because it's fairly obvious), I'm not convinced Barton's the sort who'd have been able to offer a better alternative.

He did offer a better alternative: don't make the Kearns/Lopez trade.

That earns him some measure of credibility in my book.

[Always Red]

very interesting. Maybe sour grapes, maybe not. Has Barton ever spoken out before, in his nearly 40 years with the team? IDK.

What worries me about this, is that I'm starting to get the idea that Krivsky is a guy who is going to do everything he can to prove that he is right, rather than being able to admit to a mistake, or misjudgement, and moving on. I don't think anyone expects him or anyone else, to be right 100% of the time when judging baseball talent, signing FA's or making trades. You just need to be right more often than you're wrong.

Also, he's cleaning out everyone that he did not bring in himself, both in the FO and on the field; either on purpose, by firing, or by just ignoring their counsel.

I want very much for Krivsky to do well, but honestly, I am getting less confident in his abilities, the more I see, hear, and read about him. :(

[Johnny Footstool]

very interesting. Maybe sour grapes, maybe not. Has Barton ever spoken out before, in his nearly 40 years with the team? IDK.

What worries me about this, is that I'm starting to get the idea that Krivsky is a guy who is going to do everything he can to prove that he is right, rather than being able to admit to a mistake, or misjudgement, and moving on. I don't think anyone expects him or anyone else, to be right 100% of the time when judging baseball talent, signing FA's or making trades. You just need to be right more often than you're wrong.

Also, he's cleaning out everyone that he did not bring in himself, both in the FO and on the field; either on purpose, by firing, or by just ignoring their counsel.

I want very much for Krivsky to do well, but honestly, I am getting less confident in his abilities, the more I see, hear, and read about him. :(

Maybe we should just start calling Krivsky "Dubya".

[M2]

Oh boy, reader response theory meets Redszone. Not pretty!

Well, more like Fugazi meets Redszone.

[Bob Winters]

Maybe we should just start calling Krivsky "Dubya".

You want this thread closed? I sure don't.

[Always Red]

I'm a very patient fan, but as I was reading this article, I heard a metallic clanging sound... which turned out to be Krivsky's honeymoon halo hitting the floor.

LOL, you have stated, in a much more eloquent way, exactly what I am thinking...

[Ltlabner]

Please....the guys been with the orgization since the late 1960's and this is the first GM that didn't listen to his advice on a deal? This guy is flushing his carear with the reds down the drain because Kriv didn't listen to him on every deal? Wow.

M2 hit the nail on the head. There is a sea-change in the FO and that tends to rub people the wrong way. Especially people who are used to having a certian level of prestige or a certinal amount of the GM's ear. When people realize they are now part of the "old guard" and see all these new faces it can get uncomfortable for them.

I have to belive most scouts are not listened to if you look at the overall picture. They have to make suggestions/trade reccomendations at least as often as happens on RZ. How many of the RZ rumors/suggstions/ideas actually happen.

Krvis made mistakes, and will continue to do so as he is human. I don't take this article as proof positive of trouble on the homefront.

Also intresting that Hal McCoy is usually derided here as an innacurate hack. He posts an article dogging Krivsky and suddenly he's a top flight investigative reporter.

[westofyou]

Just a side thought here, but I remember Dave Collins and RON OESTER! waving torches on their way out of town. Some of the marketing folks made a stink last winter too. Makes you wonder if that's all part of the same pathology.

Really, I'm less worried about the screaming from the folks who have been part of this mess.

If things were so bad last year then what about the prior 10?

Or was it just too good of a position to make waves over?

[Cedric]

It goes back to what I have thought since Day 1. If John Allen likes the guy then I have a problem with him. I know that seems a little shortsighted but I honestly feel that he was the Midas touch that drove this baby into the ground.

I cannot see how WayneK fans can just dismiss this guy without saying at least that he is right. WayneK has made some really dumb moves and I'm afraid by the end of this season we will have a list long enough to prove that he was not the bright spot in Minnesota.
We've already started the WayneK fans and WayneK non fans?

I'm not a loyal person to someone that constantly fails. If he continues to pull Kearns/Lopez trades out of his hat I won't give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm no 100% loyal "fan".

Whatever WayneK fan means anyways.

[westofyou]

You can't have enemies in your camp. You can not have ego problems either.

And that's why Howsam dumped Jim McGlothlian after he took over the team, he tried to make it work with Jim (who is a talented man himself) but it didn't.

Both guys knew their stuff, but the relationship wasn't going to work.

[RedsManRick]

On a somewhat related note, from Will Carroll today:

"So far, Wayne Krivsky's not making friends. "He's signing guys no one wants and pushing the bar up." I can't print the rest of the quote from an NL official."

[M2]

Really, I'm less worried about the screaming from the folks who have been part of this mess.

If things were so bad last year then what about the prior 10?

That's what I've been saying here too. I just find it interesting that it's such a common response for Reds organizational men to lash out like Barton just has.

Like I mentioned above, I don't have any problem with it per se, but I think it might point out that a certain amount of complacency has roosted in the organization because change really seems to peeve these guys.

[traderumor]

One thing that sticks out to me is remembering that Wayne has made special mention of "his people" in scouting that recommended things like the Phillips pick up AND the pitchers he picked up in the Kearns/Lopez deal. Obviously, Barton was not one "his people" in the latter deal. Someone hears clanging, I heard toes being crunched.

[traderumor]

On a somewhat related note, from Will Carroll today:

"So far, Wayne Krivsky's not making friends. "He's signing guys no one wants and pushing the bar up." I can't print the rest of the quote from an NL official."Yea, that Gonzalez deal screwed up the whole market. What is this guy talking about? Has he not seen the boneheaded deals, like Gary Matthews, Jr., nine years for Alfonso Soriano, $9M a year for Adam Eaton? 3 years by the O's for the lefty that pitched for the Tigers last year (sorry name is gone). Is Will sure that he didn't erroneously copy and paste a quote from the DanO days?

Maybe the NL official was talking about Brian Sabean.

Maybe this was one of Barton's friends, I dunno.

[Johnny Footstool]

If Barton wasn't one of Wayne's people, why did Barton go to bat to get Wayne hired in the first place?

[traderumor]

If Barton wasn't one of Wayne's people, why did Barton go to bat to get Wayne hired in the first place?They had not worked together before. Sort of like marriage, you think somebody is all that, then you live with them and find out differently.

[westofyou]

If Barton wasn't one of Wayne's people, why did Barton go to bat to get Wayne hired in the first place?

In hopes of not losing his long tenured job that had produced very little over the last decade?

Sometimes you hitch your wagon to the wrong CEO in a change, sometimes it really doesn't matter, because your performance will catch up with you eventually.

[Team Clark]

And that's why Howsam dumped Jim McGlothlian after he took over the team, he tried to make it work with Jim (who is a talented man himself) but it didn't.

Both guys knew their stuff, but the relationship wasn't going to work.

That's an excellent point. Almost forgot about that.

Reminds me of Jim Beattie firing Mike Berger in Montreal immediately after being named the GM. Berger lost out to Beattie but was considered by most in the FO to be the better choice. Stuff like that happens all the time.

[Team Clark]

Yea, that Gonzalez deal screwed up the whole market. What is this guy talking about? Has he not seen the boneheaded deals, like Gary Matthews, Jr., nine years for Alfonso Soriano, $9M a year for Adam Eaton? 3 years by the O's for the lefty that pitched for the Tigers last year (sorry name is gone). Is Will sure that he didn't erroneously copy and paste a quote from the DanO days?

Maybe the NL official was talking about Brian Sabean.

Maybe this was one of Barton's friends, I dunno.

Yeah really.... No one wanted huh? Maybe he meant Boras and 9 Figure deals for players who are just above average.

[pedro]

If Barton actually thought Lopez was a long term solution at SS then I seriously question his judgement as well.

[Johnny Footstool]

In hopes of not losing his long tenured job that had produced very little over the last decade?

Sometimes you hitch your wagon to the wrong CEO in a change, sometimes it really doesn't matter, because your performance will catch up with you eventually.

So is this about Barton's performance?

If it is, then why did Krivsky offer him a contract?


If Barton actually thought Lopez was a long term solution at SS then I seriously question his judgement as well.

Did he say Lopez was a long-term solution, or did he just say it was a bad trade?

[westofyou]

So is this about Barton's performance?

If it is, then why did Krivsky offer him a contract?

Because he got the job 10 days before ST and well... that's the beginning of the working year?

If he turned over the scouting staff in February that would have been a doozy of mess eh?

[Jpup]

Because he got the job 10 days before ST and well... that's the beginning of the working year?

If he turned over the scouting staff in February that would have been a doozy of mess eh?

he was offered a contract in October.

[westofyou]

he was offered a contract in October.

Oh... missed that...maybe he didn't like the terms, maybe it was a demotion, maybe he got to scout Manitoba instead of Texas?

Seriously I don't know, but if Larry Barton is what has been keeping the Reds head above water the past couple of years, let me spit out my mouthful and bid him farewell.

[Jpup]

Oh... missed that...maybe he didn't like the terms, maybe it was a demotion, maybe he got to scout Manitoba instead of Texas?

Seriously I don't know, but if Larry Barton is what has been keeping the Reds head above water the past couple of years, let me spit out my mouthful and bid him farewell.

BTW, I'm personally glad to see anyone involved in the scouting department leave. I'm sure he's a great guy and all, but this is Wayne's team and he has to answer to the big guy, let him put his people in place.

I think TC told us that all of this was going to happen.

What is that famous quote that has been going around RedsZone? "Blow it up Wayne, make it yours."

[M2]

It should be noted that Dan O'Brien was hired in no small part on the recommendation of his subordinates and that he seemingly had to share power with them from day one. Given that history, I can see where Krivsky would put some noses out of joint by not deferring to the company men.

This doesn't mean that Krivsky always going to make good decisions (as I said before, Barton accurately pointed out Wayne's more obvious gaffes), but at least he's not a GM in a gilded cage. At least that's my take on the situation.

[Johnny Footstool]

Oh... missed that...maybe he didn't like the terms, maybe it was a demotion, maybe he got to scout Manitoba instead of Texas?

Maybe Barton kept reminding Wayne how he screwed up the Kearn/Lopez trade, and Krivsky fired back with a bad reassignment. Then in becomes a he said/she said issue. You just have to look at the "facts" and pick who to believe.


BTW, I'm personally glad to see anyone involved in the scouting department leave. I'm sure he's a great guy and all, but this is Wayne's team and he has to answer to the big guy, let him put his people in place.

I think TC told us that all of this was going to happen.

What is that famous quote that has been going around RedsZone? "Blow it up Wayne, make it yours."

Maybe he's just installing yes-men to back his every decision. Who knows? Like I said, you just have to pick who to believe.

[westofyou]

Then in becomes a he said/she said issue, and you just have to pick who to believe.

Or you can just sit back and let it envelope you, because it's going to happen whether you give a crap about A or B.

[minus5]

Really, I'm less worried about the screaming from the folks who have been part of this mess.

If things were so bad last year then what about the prior 10?

Or was it just too good of a position to make waves over?

That was my thought as well. I can't imagine that the Nats trade was the worse he's seen happen during his tenure that he was against. It's certainly not the worse I've seen.

[paulrichjr]

Oh... missed that...maybe he didn't like the terms, maybe it was a demotion, maybe he got to scout Manitoba instead of Texas?

Seriously I don't know, but if Larry Barton is what has been keeping the Reds head above water the past couple of years, let me spit out my mouthful and bid him farewell.

Correct me if I am wrong but this guy was also here during the good times as well. 70's late 80's and early 90's were during his watch...

I understand what people are saying but I still can't help but believe that if DanO had done some of these same moves people would be calling for his head. Wayne has gotten a pass for a long time and he continues to make questionable moves. I don't dislike everything that he has done but since day 1 of his stewardship I have heard how he has a bigger plan and this move must mean another one is coming only to find out that "no that was the end of his thinking." I hope he succeeds but if he pulls another move like he did at the All-Star break we are going to at least have some high draft choices the next couple of years...maybe a number 1!!!!

[Team Clark]

That was my thought as well. I can't imagine that the Nats trade was the worse he's seen happen during his tenure that he was against. It's certainly not the worse I've seen.

I e-mailed Hal. I want to hear the "rest of the story". I hope he e-mails back.

[Team Clark]

I wonder if Barton was the guy who told O'Brien that Dave Williams was a #1 Starter?:laugh: :evil:

[westofyou]

Correct me if I am wrong but this guy was also here during the good times as well. 70's late 80's and early 90's were during his watch...

yep and he was a scout then, just scouting. This year his title was "Special Assistant to the GM"

Looks to me like WK wants his own assiastants, and I don't blame him for that.

Barton became a special assistant 13 years ago, when Bowden came aboard... IMO those 13 years are what drives his departure and any scouting prior to that is not what drives the job in todays Reds FO.

Just like it didn't when Howsam jettisoned a mess of folks from the prior regime in 1968

[Dom Heffner]

Barton has asked every question that I have as a fan.

Trading Lopez was one of the more moronic moves I've seen.

Who plays SS next year? I'm not worried about that....

Terrific.

[pedro]

Barton has asked every question that I have as a fan.

Trading Lopez was one of the more moronic moves I've seen.

Who plays SS next year? I'm not worried about that....

Terrific.

That completely ignores the fact that Lopez has no business playing SS and can't hit lefties. I just don't see what the big loss is.

He may have value as a 2nd baseman but I'd be willing to bet that Lopez will never play SS for a winning team.

[Ltlabner]

Barton has asked every question that I have as a fan.

Trading Lopez was one of the more moronic moves I've seen.

Who plays SS next year? I'm not worried about that....

Terrific.

Because we all know everything Hal prints is spot on accurate.

Which detail(s) in this particular artcile are wrong, do you suppose? We all know Hal screws it up more than he gets it right. So which tidbit in this article is the false one?

[M2]

That completely ignores the fact that Lopez has no business playing SS and can't hit lefties. I just don't see what the big loss is.

He may have value as a 2nd baseman but I'd be willing to bet that Lopez will never play SS for a winning team.

And he may have value as a 3B or an OF too. What he mostly has value as is a guy who can be a pretty dynamic performer at the top of a MLB lineup.

In general, I don't advocate giving guys like that away. I'll be shocked if he doesn't have a far superior career to both Bray and Majewski.

Dom, I don't even mind that he didn't have SS for next season covered int he wake of that deal. The problems, among others, were that he didn't have SS for last season covered after that deal and that it didn't fix the pen either (the pen largely got fixed by guys the team already had on hand). So he blew a hole open at SS (and in RF) and he fixed nothing. A trade implies that you give up something to get something. The Reds got nothing. Perhaps not having a SS for 2007 and beyond is the cherry on top of the kitchen sink sundae of problems with that trade.

[westofyou]

What he mostly has value as is a guy who can be a pretty dynamic performer at the top of a MLB lineup.Guess we'll find out this year. Apparently he is the new leadoff hitter for the Nats, maybe 2nd baseman too. They have Guzman pushing him at SS and the need to dump Vidros contract (how come SD isn't interested?)

[Cooper]

This is a really good thread -by reading it i've concluded that he needed to go. I wasn't so sure of that when i first read the story, but i've been convinced otherwise. What changed my mind is how this organization has sunk into nothingness for the last 10 years. It's pretty good arguement for cleaning house. It may be a complete over reach to blow the whole thing up because you may lose something of value when the grenade goes off, but all of you who want to go that route make a good case.

[MikeS21]

If Barton has been here 38 years, that means he was here in since 1968. I wonder if Barton was critical of Bob Howsam when he traded Lee May to the Astros?

In fact, since 1968, how many actual winning seasons has Barton brought the Reds with his valuable advice?

[dabvu2498]

In fact, since 1968, how many actual winning seasons has Barton brought the Reds with his valuable advice?


Well by my quick count, the Reds have had 23 winning seasons and 1 .500 season, since 1968. Not that it has anything to do with anything.

[Redsland]

Because we all know everything Hal prints is spot on accurate.

Which detail(s) in this particular artcile are wrong, do you suppose? We all know Hal screws it up more than he gets it right. So which tidbit in this article is the false one?
Hal stumbles when he attempts analysis ("offering arb to Aurilia means he's coming back"); when he trusts his memory ("Hall of Famer Steve Garvey"); goes with hunches ("Jack McKeon is a GM candidate"); and when he places too much faith in his anonymous sources ("Beattie named GM," "Delino DeShields a Red").

Here he's simply quoting a named source. There's not much for him to get "wrong."

[Ltlabner]

Hal stumbles when he attempts analysis ("offering arb to Aurilia means he's coming back"); when he trusts his memory ("Hall of Famer Steve Garvey"); goes with hunches ("Jack McKeon is a GM candidate"); and when he places too much faith in his anonymous sources ("Beattie named GM," "Delino DeShields a Red").

Here he's simply quoting a named source that is ripping on Krivsky . So it can't be "wrong."

There....fixed that up for you.

Not that it matters much. This story is much ado about nothing IMO. People who are uncomfortable with the changing times because they sense they are the odd man out leave businesses all the time. That this guy was classless enough to whine about it tells me what I need to know about him.

[OldXOhio]

Krivsky: "I'm not worried about next year."

For the GM of the Cincinnati Reds, an organization badly in need of a long-term plan, to make that statement is rather disconcerting. Unless it truly is one man's sour grapes, I would argue a comment like that is not merely much ado about nothing.

[Team Clark]

This story is much ado about nothing IMO.

True...but it did give me something to follow on Redszone today!:thumbup:

[Falls City Beer]

I'm no defender of Wayne's, but this guy's got all kinds of motivation to fudge his side of the story. Plus, Hal's reporting it. I'm not buying it.

[Team Clark]

I'm no defender of Wayne's, but this guy's got all kinds of motivation to fudge his side of the story. Plus, Hal's reporting it. I'm not buying it.

"Departing can be such sweet, sorrow"

[M2]

Guess we'll find out this year. Apparently he is the new leadoff hitter for the Nats, maybe 2nd baseman too. They have Guzman pushing him at SS and the need to dump Vidros contract (how come SD isn't interested?)

Well, he's been a quality top-of-the-lineup guy for two years running already. I don't think we need to wait for 2007 to figure that out. And it's fairly reasonable to assume he can improve on that the next few years regardless of where he plays defensively.

[Team Clark]

Well, he's been a quality top-of-the-lineup guy for two years running already. I don't think we need to wait for 2007 to figure that out. And it's fairly reasonable to assume he can improve on that the next few years regardless of where he plays defensively.

I think FeLo can be a good 2B. With the pressure of playing SS off his mind he may actually put up those ALL Star offensive numbers again. IMO.

[MartyFan]

And the music begins to play....

"Happy Trails, to you....Until we meet again..."

It's the VanHalen version...because it's alot cooler.

[Team Clark]

And the music begins to play....

"Happy Trails, to you....Until we meet again..."

It's the VanHalen version...because it's alot cooler.

Now that is an absolute!

Music and Lyrics by Dale Evans-Rogers
Some trails are happy ones, (Phillips, Arroyo,Ross)
Others are blue. (Majic, Franklin)
It's the way you ride the trail that counts, (Krivsky Contract extension)
Here's a happy one for you. (See ya Barton, ya jerk!)

Happy trails to you until we meet again. (Jocketty you're lucky)
Happy trails to you, keep smilin' until then. (Allen too, Phil C's comin' for you)
Who cares about the clouds when we're together? (Narron and JR.)
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather. (Spring Training)
Happy trails to you 'till we meet again. (Redszone on Opening Day)

[RedsFanInMD]

I find it a bit funny that this guy just so happened to disagree with the decisions that in hind-sight turned out to be bad ones. (Or at least to date seem to be that way.)

Selective memory, perhaps?

Maybe he and Kriv fought tooth and nail over every possible deal. Was he also against picking up Phillips and Ross? He leaves the impression that he wasn't in love with the Arroyo deal either, only commenting that it was "OK" because the team had an extra outfielder. Hmmm. What if we didn't have the luxury of an extra outfielder? Does that mean that Wayne shouldn't have done whatever he could to acquire Arroyo? Sounds like this guy doesn't understand that sometimes you have to give up something to get something. (You know like the idiots in your fantasy football league who are offended when you turn down their trade offer of Willis McGahee for LaDainina Tomlinson straight up!)

I also get the feeling that there was really a variance in philosophy here. For better or worse Wayne's willing to make the hard decisions and roll the dice in hopes of trying to make the team better. This guy may have been dragging everyone down with his brand of negativity: "What if this doesn't work?"

[vaticanplum]

I'm no defender of Wayne's, but this guy's got all kinds of motivation to fudge his side of the story. Plus, Hal's reporting it. I'm not buying it.

I'm never going to take a stranger's word on a job situation right after he's left it unless I hear the other side too.

Plus, I am pretty good at judging people all on my own. Unless a former employee breaks out with some truly revelatory facts, I see no reason to let my own opinions be very shaped by what he says. These quotes are largely opinions and incomplete stories. ("I'm not worried about next year"...right, I'm sure that's the only thing Krivsky had to say about it.) I'm glad they're being reported because a healthy bit of questioning of power in the press has inherent value regardless of what is said. But I don't take what is said very seriously.

[Matt700wlw]

Where there's smoke, there's fire.....Given time, we'll probably know the source of the fire.

[Redsland]

There....fixed that up for you.

Here he's simply quoting a named source that is ripping on Krivsky . So it can't be "wrong."
This is the second time you've picked a fight with me on a subject you know nothing about. Check the archives and you'll see I was a strong supporter of Hal for many years. So if you're accusing me of having some sort of agenda or an axe to grind, you're dead wrong. Again.

[Ltlabner]

This is the second time you've picked a fight with me on a subject you know nothing about. Check the archives and you'll see I was a strong supporter of Hal for many years. So if you're accusing me of having some sort of agenda or an axe to grind, you're dead wrong. Again.

I wasn't questioning your man-love of Hal. BTW - this is a message board where sometimes people respond to what you post. Doesn't mean it's a fight. ;)

I was making the point that some here are jumping on Hal's words as if they were gospel despite that he is often derided and mocked for consistent errors and mistakes.

I found it ironic that when it was a peice that didn't favor Kriv suddenly Hal's words were taken as solid and factual. Actually, my post had to do with what a number of people were expressing and very little with whatever you do or don't think about the subject.

[LINEDRIVER]

And that's why Howsam dumped Jim McGlothlian after he took over the team, he tried to make it work with Jim (who is a talented man himself) but it didn't.

Both guys knew their stuff, but the relationship wasn't going to work.


Don't you mean Milt Pappas and not Jim McGlothlin? Pappas was always running his mouth about something and was well known as a 'clubhouse lawyer'. Howsam shipped him off to Atlanta in June of '68.

Howsam traded for McGlothlin in the winter of '69 and traded him to the WhiteSox in late-season '73.

[Redsland]

Actually, my post had...very little [to do] with whatever you do or don't think about the subject.
Which is why you quoted my post and altered its content to suit your purposes.

If you want to comment on what other people are saying, quote them, not me.

[westofyou]

Don't you mean Milt Pappas and not Jim McGlothlin? Pappas was always running his mouth about something and was well known as a 'clubhouse lawyer'. Howsam shipped him off to Atlanta in June of '68.

Howsam traded for McGlothlin in the winter of '69 and traded him to the WhiteSox in late-season '73.

No, I'm speaking of the scouting director (Jim McLauglin who ran the 65-68 draft for the Reds) he was fired after the 1968 season.

[LINEDRIVER]

No, I'm speaking of the scouting director (Jim McLauglin who ran the 65-68 draft for the Reds) he was fired after the 1968 season.


OK. Now it makes more sense.

[noskill27]

Trading Lopez was one of the more moronic moves I've seen.


I think the opposite. Giving up Kearns for what we got was tough, but I would've been happy with a box of broken lightbulbs for Lopez...

[LINEDRIVER]

No, I'm speaking of the scouting director (Jim McLauglin who ran the 65-68 draft for the Reds) he was fired after the 1968 season.

That must be the guy that OK'd the pickings and signings of Bernie Carbo, Johnny Bench, Hal McRae, Gary Nolan, Wayne Simpson, David Concepcion, and Milt Wilcox to name a handful. Seems like he knew what he was doing.

[westofyou]

That must be the guy that OK'd the pickings and signings of Bernie Carbo, Johnny Bench, Hal McRae, Gary Nolan, Wayne Simpson, David Concepcion, and Milt Wilcox to name a handful. Seems like he knew what he was doing.

Yep, he also was an architect of the Orioles. But he waffled on the Simpson pick at the last minute and Howsam didn't like the fact that he waffled, thought it was a sign of unsure behavior... which Bob didn't want any part of.

[cincinnati chili]

As a fan and consumer of baseball information, I love watching the outgoing soldiers firing off scuds like this. It's great entertainment. If I were a major league GM, I'd feel differently.

If he's really retiring, then it must have felt good to say this. If he's not, then it was a very stupid move. There's no way I would ever hire this guy. I don't care if everything he said about Krivsky is true. Don't care if he's the best judge of talent since Branch Rickey. You have a limited number of top front office spots (far fewer than major league roster spots), and I have no use for someone whos going to go crying to the media when he has a falling out with me.

[Cedric]

As a fan and consumer of baseball information, I love watching the outgoing soldiers firing off scuds like this. It's great entertainment. If I were a major league GM, I'd feel differently.

If he's really retiring, then it must have felt good to say this. If he's not, then it was a very stupid move. There's no way I would ever hire this guy. I don't care if everything he said about Krivsky is true. Don't care if he's the best judge of talent since Branch Rickey. You have a limited number of top front office spots (far fewer than major league roster spots), and I have no use for someone whos going to go crying to the media when he has a falling out with me.

Spot on, IMO. I'd never go in the trenches with a guy like this. The point that he might even be right is about the last thing that matters with the lack of class he showed in the papers.

[wolfboy]

As a fan and consumer of baseball information, I love watching the outgoing soldiers firing off scuds like this. It's great entertainment. If I were a major league GM, I'd feel differently.

If he's really retiring, then it must have felt good to say this. If he's not, then it was a very stupid move. There's no way I would ever hire this guy. I don't care if everything he said about Krivsky is true. Don't care if he's the best judge of talent since Branch Rickey. You have a limited number of top front office spots (far fewer than major league roster spots), and I have no use for someone whos going to go crying to the media when he has a falling out with me.

If I'm a GM, and the guy's that good at judging talent, then I don't care what he does when there's a falling out. If he's that good, then he's going to help me keep my job.

[Falls City Beer]

If I'm a GM, and the guy's that good at judging talent, then I don't care what he does when there's a falling out. If he's that good, then he's going to help me keep my job.

Well said. I dislike housecleanings just "because they can." A smart housecleaning keeps the talent around, no matter how curmudgeonly.

"Much too vulgar display of power, Karras."

[cincinnati chili]

If I'm a GM, and the guy's that good at judging talent, then I don't care what he does when there's a falling out. If he's that good, then he's going to help me keep my job.

I think you're overestimating the predictive abilities of baseball people who are "good at judging talent." When you're talking about guys who have substantial amounts of professional experience, data is much more compelling than conjecture. Plenty of people could have told Wayne Krivsky that the Lopez/Kearns trade was stupid, without being a loose cannon. There's a huge value in having scouts who don't run their mouth to the press.

Lots of backstabbing has gone on in the Reds organization over the past several years. While I don't know this guy from Adam, the fact that he did this makes him a prime suspect in my book.

[westofyou]

While I don't know this guy from Adam, the fact that he did this makes him a prime suspect in my book.

In case you ever meet him he kinda looks like Porter Wagoner.

[wolfboy]

I think you're overestimating the predictive abilities of baseball people who are "good at judging talent." When you're talking about guys who have substantial amounts of professional experience, data is much more compelling than conjecture. Plenty of people could have told Wayne Krivsky that the Lopez/Kearns trade was stupid, without being a loose cannon. There's a huge value in having scouts who don't run their mouth to the press.

Lots of backstabbing has gone on in the Reds organization over the past several years. While I don't know this guy from Adam, the fact that he did this makes him a prime suspect in my book.

Where are you getting anything out of my post regarding the predictive value of a visual observation? Data is much more compelling than conjecture. I really don't know where you've seen me say otherwise.

My point is that, if someone is talented (whether it be in field scouting, number crunching, or whatever), I'm going to keep them around. I don't care if they're going to go whining to the media later. My priority is to keep my job. If I keep talented people around, there's a better chance of that happening.

[LINEDRIVER]

Just wondering........

Is it really a matter of Barton running to the press and mouthing off or was it chit-chat over a few drinks at the hotel bar with a writer Barton has known for more than 30 years? Did Hal stab Barton in the back by writing this story?

[Falls City Beer]

Where are you getting anything out of my post regarding the predictive value of a visual observation? Data is much more compelling than conjecture. I really don't know where you've seen me say otherwise.

My point is that, if someone is talented (whether it be in field scouting, number crunching, or whatever), I'm going to keep them around. I don't care if they're going to go whining to the media later. My priority is to keep my job. If I keep talented people around, there's a better chance of that happening.

And conjure up all the stats you want to, you still need really smart people to look at them and THEN take the steps to act on them, advise the king....

[cincinnati chili]

Where are you getting anything out of my post regarding the predictive value of a visual observation? Data is much more compelling than conjecture. I really don't know where you've seen me say otherwise.

My point is that, if someone is talented (whether it be in field scouting, number crunching, or whatever), I'm going to keep them around. I don't care if they're going to go whining to the media later. My priority is to keep my job. If I keep talented people around, there's a better chance of that happening.

I didn't mean to accuse you personally of being non-data driven. My bad.

My point was simply that there are plenty of people who can give you good baseball advice without airing dirty laundry to the public. This doesn't mean I want to be surrounded by 'yes' people. But I'd rather have a subordinate tell me I'm an idiot to my face than telling the media.

[traderumor]

I didn't mean to accuse you personally of being non-data driven. My bad.

My point was simply that there are plenty of people who can give you good baseball advice without airing dirty laundry to the public. This doesn't mean I want to be surrounded by 'yes' people. But I'd rather have a subordinate tell me I'm an idiot to my face than telling the media.Well said.

[wolfboy]

I didn't mean to accuse you personally of being non-data driven. My bad.

My point was simply that there are plenty of people who can give you good baseball advice without airing dirty laundry to the public. This doesn't mean I want to be surrounded by 'yes' people. But I'd rather have a subordinate tell me I'm an idiot to my face than telling the media.

No worries. I respect what you are saying. I guess the original comparison to Branch Rickey was the basis for my statement. There's good baseball advice, and there's a notch or two above that. If I have great versus good, I'm keeping it around, regardless of what ugly consequences might come later.

I don't know if I feel the same way about on the field talent though. You can trade a guy like Manny for a good return. What do you get if you want to ship your top talent out of the front office?

[Ron Madden]

I could be wrong with my opinion but the way I see it.....

The local media has always praised or defended Owners and GM's untill they are replaced with New Owners and GM's.

The "Casual Fan" will trust anything they hear on radio or read in the sports section to be factual information.

The Beat Writers and Broadcasters all loved Marge untill Carl came along, now they love Bob. This holds true with every opinion the've had on every GM and Manager the last 15 years.

Love'em while they are here... Bash'em when they leave.

Who Knows if Bob and Wayne have what it takes to turn this franchise around?

We as Fans need to support the team, hope for the best and last but not least think for ourselves. Facts should always trump popular opinion.

[NDRed]

I could be wrong with my opinion but the way I see it.....

The local media has always praised or defended Owners and GM's untill they are replaced with New Owners and GM's.

The "Casual Fan" will trust anything they hear on radio or read in the sports section to be factual information.

The Beat Writers and Broadcasters all loved Marge untill Carl came along, now they love Bob. This holds true with every opinion the've had on every GM and Manager the last 15 years.

Love'em while they are here... Bash'em when they leave.

Who Knows if Bob and Wayne have what it takes to turn this franchise around?

We as Fans need to support the team, hope for the best and last but not least think for ourselves. Facts should always trump popular opinion.

BINGO... Substitute Jim Bowden in this thread and Barton is the best, most insightfull scout ever and the Reds will never recover from his loss. How could you argue, he looked back at recent trades and perfectly determined what was good and what was bad.

Kinda like a Pokey Reese quote, I mean who knows more about baseball and character than Pokey?


I know, everyone hated before Bowden got fired.........whatever.

[reds44]

This article looks even more interesting now.

[Redhook]

This article looks even more FRIGHTENING now.

More frightening than interesting.

Wayne still commanding the ship scares the bejesus out of me. I don't have any faith he'll come through with the right moves at one of the most important junctures in the history of Cincinnati Reds baseball.

Scary.

[bounty37h]

It could be. And there probably is a lot of truth to what he's saying. It's also a no class move to spout off about your employer on the way out the door.

I dont consider it a loss either, look at our talent we have had come through, our scouting dept hasnt done the best job either.

[Orenda]

The man had been around for 38 years and Krivsky is going into his second season, yet there seems to be more support for Krivsky than Barton here. And while none of us know what has been going on behind the scenes. This certainly doesn't reflect favorably on Krivsky. I don't have a problem with a GM who wants his "own people" but I don't like a gm who fails to use all his available resources. Also, Johny Almaraz uttered similar sentiments when he announced his resignation. If Krivsky can field a winner then you can say I told you so. But until he does, I’m not jumping on his bandwagon even though I’m rooting for him.

[HUHUH]

And Barton and Alvarez had done what? Develop the Reds farm system? Yeah, let's listen to those guys. They know what they're doing. BTW, has anyone hired them?

[ochre]

In fairness to those that posted here before the split that no longer can, I'm going to lock this thread.