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Redus
12-07-2006, 10:51 AM
The Cubs took him 3rd in the rule 5 to trade to us as it was prearranged for cash considerations. The former overall 1st pick of the D-Rays trying to make it back from drug suspensions.

TOBTTReds
12-07-2006, 11:01 AM
This is a great move. Do you have a link? I didn't realize they traded him to the Reds.

Highlifeman21
12-07-2006, 11:01 AM
The Cubs took him 3rd in the rule 5 to trade to us as it was prearranged for cash considerations. The former overall 1st pick of the D-Rays trying to make it back from drug suspensions.

If this is true, I'm a huge fan of this.

Josh Hamilton still has a bunch of talent.

You have to be excited about a potential OF of Dunn, Bruce and Hamilton.

I wonder what we're sending to the Cubs, if this is the case.

Although I'm suddenly remembering that I thought you couldn't trade Rule V guys, or else they'd return to their original team....

Someone help me out here.

HumnHilghtFreel
12-07-2006, 11:02 AM
This is a great move. Do you have a link? I didn't realize they traded him to the Reds.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/transactions.aspx?sport=MLB

"Cubs selected outfielder Josh Hamilton from the Devil Rays with the third pick in the Rule 5 draft.

Baseball America is reporting that he'll be traded to the Reds. They can take a look at him, but it's highly unlikely that they'll keep him. The 25-year-old Hamilton played in just 15 games in his comeback season, hitting .260/.327/.360 in the Midwest League. Prior to that, he hadn't played in a game since 2002. It's not very likely that he'll have a career in the majors, and he certainly isn't ready now."

Redus
12-07-2006, 11:07 AM
Cash considerations. got to root for the kid. I saw a long thing about him last summer. He's battled back hard from addiction.

Team Clark
12-07-2006, 11:08 AM
The Reds will end up keeping him. He may be offered back but more than likely he will be refused IMO. I have no doubt that the Rays feel a change of scenery will further his efforts. His comeback from addiction is nothing short of miraculous. Good luck Josh.

shredda2000
12-07-2006, 11:10 AM
Here's to his future in a Reds uniform!!! :thumbup:

camisadelgolf
12-07-2006, 11:17 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/devilrays/2006-06-06-hamilton-cover_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA

I saw Hamilton and his wife's family interviewed on television (I believe he no longer has connections to his immediate family), and they said they would escort Hamilton for pretty much every single thing he does for possibly the rest of his life because his addiction is so terrible. It was really sad, but at the same time, it looked like he was finally coming to terms with the fact that he's an addict, and he may never have the strength to battle addiction on his own.

reds44
12-07-2006, 12:22 PM
Awesome. Hopefully we can get this kid to turn his life aorund.

osuceltic
12-07-2006, 01:09 PM
Can you imagine a worse profession to pursue when battling that kind of problem? Maybe professional musician. I mean, the travel, the hours, the isolation, the money, the easy access ... what a terrible environment for someone with a serious addiction.

TeamBoone
12-07-2006, 01:22 PM
December 7, 2006


Hamilton Headlines Active Rule 5
By Chris Kline

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla.--Two days ago, a scout from a National League club alluded to Josh Hamilton as a possible Rule 5 pick.

But even he didn’t sound serious.

“I could see it maybe . . . the tools are still there for the most part,” he said. “But that’s a major gamble--we’re talking serious risk assessment.”

The Reds took that gamble Thursday, as the Cubs chose Hamilton with the third pick in the major league phase of the Rule 5 draft and traded the first overall pick in 1999 to Cincinnati for cash considerations.

“We felt like he had the best tools in the draft and he was worth the gamble,” Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. “There are certain obstacles, obviously. But we wouldn’t have taken him if we felt he couldn’t overcome them, and the upside is still there at his age.”

Hamilton played just 15 games at short-season Hudson Valley last season and was shut down in late July due to knee surgery to remove scar tissue. That surgery was the latest in a litany of injuries that have plagued Hamilton over his career.

But the substance abuse problems were even more glaring. Prior to this season, Hamilton spent all of 2003 on the restricted list, then missed the next two years after being suspended by Major League Baseball for multiple violations of the game’s substance abuse policy.

Hamiton was cleared by MLB to play again in late June, declaring he had been clean since October 2005. When he made his return to the Renegades this past summer, it was the first time Hamilton took the field since 2002.

The Reds did not see Hamilton in the New York-Penn League, but senior director of scouting Chris Buckley followed him through instructional league, and the organization took a shot on him based on the fact that he seemingly has cleaned up his life and--of course--the raw tools.

“Hopefully we can keep him and get him as many at-bats in winter ball as possible,” Krivsky said. “He has some catching up to do and we’re going to do everything we can as an organization to support him. Being the athlete that he is, those guys tend to make better adjustments faster than your average player.

"We hope he looks at this as a fresh start and feels good about himself--which he should--and his career could take off and get headed in the right direction. I know I’m getting ahead of myself a little bit, but we’re just very excited about having him as part of the Cincinnati Reds organization.”

Another excited front office official is Marlins vice president of player personnel Dan Jennings, who scouted and ultimately drafted Hamilton in 1999.

“I like where he is now, and I love what he could still become,” Jennings said. “The upside has always been there, and I know I’ll be rooting for him with this change of scenery and really, the chance to finally prove he can be a major league player.”

Hamilton, who spoke to reporters in a telephone interview, sounded eager for a change of scenery and an opportunity. "I'm not really concerned. Baseball has never been the problem . . . " he said. "I've been working out, and I can guarantee I will be in the best shape of my life when spring training comes."

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262983.html

Redsnake
12-07-2006, 01:30 PM
The potential this kid had or maybe still has in worth the risk. I really like this move! Who knows, maybe the Reds got there "Johan Santana Rule 5 player" like the Twins got.

noskill27
12-07-2006, 01:53 PM
I don't like the move. Someone who's been in and out of rehab EIGHT times since 2003 isn't worth the risk even if he turns out to be the next Babe Ruth.

texasdave
12-07-2006, 02:04 PM
Awesome. Hopefully we can get this kid to turn his life aorund.

maybe we can bring back Toe Nash to be his mentor.

Always Red
12-07-2006, 02:29 PM
The potential this kid had or maybe still has in worth the risk. I really like this move! Who knows, maybe the Reds got there "Johan Santana Rule 5 player" like the Twins got.

This is the part that raised red flags for me, and may come back to haunt...


Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said he got a scouting report from manager Jerry Narron's brother...

Chip R
12-07-2006, 02:40 PM
This is the part that raised red flags for me, and may come back to haunt...


Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said he got a scouting report from manager Jerry Narron's brother...



Don't worry about it. All it said was that he Knows How To Win and he Plays The Game The Right Way. ;)

Team Clark
12-07-2006, 02:42 PM
The potential this kid had or maybe still has in worth the risk. I really like this move! Who knows, maybe the Reds got there "Johan Santana Rule 5 player" like the Twins got.

That was Wayne Krivsky who orchestrated the Johan Santana selection with the Twins. Wayne scouted him and was the guiding hand in choosing him. Wayne also insisted Terry Ryan get a kid named Francisco Liriano in a trade with the Giants for A.J. Pierzynski.

osuceltic
12-07-2006, 02:44 PM
That was Wayne Krivsky who orchestrated the Johan Santana selection with the Twins. Wayne scouted him and was the guiding hand in choosing him. Wayne also insisted Terry Ryan get a kid named Francisco Liriano in a trade with the Giants for A.J. Pierzynski.

What? But he's an idiot! Don't you pay attention?

edabbs44
12-07-2006, 03:04 PM
That was Wayne Krivsky who orchestrated the Johan Santana selection with the Twins. Wayne scouted him and was the guiding hand in choosing him. Wayne also insisted Terry Ryan get a kid named Francisco Liriano in a trade with the Giants for A.J. Pierzynski.

And this is the same guy who went 1 for 27 in pitching acquisitions in 2006.

Doc. Scott
12-07-2006, 03:48 PM
The Reds will end up keeping him. He may be offered back but more than likely he will be refused IMO. I have no doubt that the Rays feel a change of scenery will further his efforts. His comeback from addiction is nothing short of miraculous. Good luck Josh.

So the Rays are going to let someone have the guy for free *after* he's begun his comeback? What sense does that make for a team that already paid the guy a $3.96MM bonus after it wouldn't cost much additional cash to keep him around?

I never got the impression that being in the Tampa Bay organization was what Hamilton's problem was. If he plays in the Reds' system he'll still be in the general geographic region of his hometown/residence (Sarasota, Chattanooga, etc.).

redsupport
12-07-2006, 03:55 PM
He has a chance the be the next Joe Gaines

Team Clark
12-07-2006, 04:07 PM
So the Rays are going to let someone have the guy for free *after* he's begun his comeback? What sense does that make for a team that already paid the guy a $3.96MM bonus after it wouldn't cost much additional cash to keep him around?

I never got the impression that being in the Tampa Bay organization was what Hamilton's problem was. If he plays in the Reds' system he'll still be in the general geographic region of his hometown/residence (Sarasota, Chattanooga, etc.).

Yeah basically. Sounds silly but I personally think that is what they will do. Is he going to play ahead of the Dynamic Trio? No.

Wheelhouse
12-07-2006, 04:07 PM
And this is the same guy who went 1 for 27 in pitching acquisitions in 2006.

Without even going over it in a detailed way I see 4: Arroyo, Schoenweis, Guardado, Lohse.

Doc. Scott
12-07-2006, 04:14 PM
Yeah basically. Sounds silly but I personally think that is what they will do. Is he going to play ahead of the Dynamic Trio? No.

Well, with that history of success, the Rays don't really have to worry about things coming back to haunt them, do they? :)

Tom Servo
12-07-2006, 04:22 PM
I like the move a lot. It's the kind of risk I like to see teams (especially the Reds) take.

edabbs44
12-07-2006, 04:22 PM
Without even going over it in a detailed way I see 4: Arroyo, Schoenweis, Guardado, Lohse.

Lohse? No way.

Guardado? The guy was basically on a list for a ligament donor when he was traded for. That was a losing acquisition all around.

IMO, the jury is still out on Schoeneweis. He threw something like 14 innings last year, though they were effective. I can't say that he was a difference maker. Extremely small sample size.

DunnFan44
12-07-2006, 04:54 PM
Under the Rule 5 provisions, Hamilton must stay on Cincinnati's 25-man Major League roster for the entire season, or be offered back to Tampa Bay for $25,000.


He might be taking a roster spot that may deserve to go to a pitcher or a player that deserves it coming out of spring training. I never really liked the rule 5 draft!!!

If he hits .200 for the months of April and May would the Reds continue to keep him?

Patrick Bateman
12-07-2006, 04:59 PM
Lohse? No way.

Guardado? The guy was basically on a list for a ligament donor when he was traded for. That was a losing acquisition all around.

IMO, the jury is still out on Schoeneweis. He threw something like 14 innings last year, though they were effective. I can't say that he was a difference maker. Extremely small sample size.

Well he wasn't brought in to be a difference maker. He was brought in to get the occasional out for a month. He did that. That was awin for Krivsky. He served his purpose.

You can't judge every pick-up and expect difference making potential. Most of his pick-ups last year were quite small (and the only big one that didn't work out was Bray and Majewski, compared to what we gave up).

Patrick Bateman
12-07-2006, 05:02 PM
If he hits .200 for the months of April and May would the Reds continue to keep him?

I'm guessing they would.

Krivsky likely realizes that Hamilton will have zero value to the Reds this season. So if breaks camp with, I'm guessing they will stick with him as long as they have to. Using him at the beginning would indicate to me that they are willing to go with basically a 24 man roster for the season. He's obviously not ready to be a decent major league player.

texasdave
12-07-2006, 05:06 PM
If he hits .200 for the months of April and May would the Reds continue to keep him?

With the way the Reds hit in September that just might boost him into the starting lineup. =)

reds44
12-07-2006, 05:29 PM
I'm guessing they would.

Krivsky likely realizes that Hamilton will have zero value to the Reds this season. So if breaks camp with, I'm guessing they will stick with him as long as they have to. Using him at the beginning would indicate to me that they are willing to go with basically a 24 man roster for the season. He's obviously not ready to be a decent major league player.
You have to. He's never played above A ball before, so you can't expect anything from this guy. I'd look for him to be the last man off the bench and be put in during blowouts.

I bet he starts the year on the DL, and goes on a Cody Ross rehab stint.

edabbs44
12-07-2006, 05:50 PM
Well he wasn't brought in to be a difference maker. He was brought in to get the occasional out for a month. He did that. That was awin for Krivsky. He served his purpose.

You can't judge every pick-up and expect difference making potential. Most of his pick-ups last year were quite small (and the only big one that didn't work out was Bray and Majewski, compared to what we gave up).

No, I was told that Lohse, Guardado and Schoeneweis were wins.

I said they weren't.

There weren't any caveats.

Patrick Bateman
12-07-2006, 05:56 PM
No, I was told that Lohse, Guardado and Schoeneweis were wins.

I said they weren't.

There weren't any caveats.

It depends how you define "wins". If you define "wins" as being a player that presents huge impact, than there will be very few wins. It's not like we give up the future for guys like SS. In most deals we gave up nothing. In fact we may turn "cash considerations" into some draft picks in Schoenweis' case. What's not to like about that?

There were some moves that worked out just fine and shouldn't be considered poor moves.

Phhhl
12-07-2006, 06:00 PM
I like it. Could anyone possibly be more motivated to have this work out than Hamilton? He's lucky he's not dead, and here he is with a second chance. If it doesn't work out and he relapses, all you are out of is a few bucks. That the Reds paid to move up and get him indicates there was more than a passing interest in the kid.

RedsManRick
12-07-2006, 06:02 PM
Who says the D-Rays take him back? I wouldn't be surprised to see us offer him back and the D-Rays pass. Then we ship him down to Chattanooga.

vaticanplum
12-07-2006, 06:18 PM
And this is the same guy who went 1 for 27 in pitching acquisitions in 2006.

I would say this is an exaggeration...but even so, I'd take 26 relatively cheap, throwaway acquisitions for a Santana or Liriano any day of the week.

You only have to strike gold once, and you usually have to go through a bit of tedious panning before you do.

Krusty
12-07-2006, 06:28 PM
Reds don't make a trade for this guy if they don't keep him on the 40-man roster. Good acquistion.

As for his addiction, I give him all the respect in battling his demons. Instead of criticizing him, we should pat him on the back for support.

BEETTLEBUG
12-07-2006, 07:00 PM
I agree with you Krusty if they wern't going to keep him they wouldn't have Traded for him.

mth123
12-07-2006, 08:08 PM
Wayne's best move since Phillips IMO.

BEETTLEBUG
12-07-2006, 08:50 PM
Yes

Falls City Beer
12-07-2006, 09:21 PM
I would say this is an exaggeration...but even so, I'd take 26 relatively cheap, throwaway acquisitions for a Santana or Liriano any day of the week.

You only have to strike gold once, and you usually have to go through a bit of tedious panning before you do.

Great teams, though, now when to put the pan down and buy the damn gold ring.

Otherwise you're just a fetishist, like Bowden.

Patpacillosjock
12-07-2006, 10:25 PM
Without even going over it in a detailed way I see 4: Arroyo, Schoenweis, Guardado, Lohse.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:



why are Reds fans such simpletons these days..why can't we demand more from our team?

If Arroyo, Schoenweis, Guardado, and Lohse make you proud of our pitching then you have no reason to complain even once this year if we are a sub-500 team.

Bottom line: fans still have the most power in a pro baseball team. If the GM, owner, managers, or players are screwing up--voice your opinion. Dont go to games. Stop watching it on TV. Dont buy memoribilia. Dont buy tickets or concessions.

Money talks and us fans are where the Reds get it from.

Shaknb8k
12-07-2006, 10:47 PM
There are 5 spots out there for the bench....Freel/Denorfia, Valentin, Castro all have spots. So that leaves 2 spots that Hamilton, Harris, Moeller, Hopper, and Crosby will have to fill. That is if they dont add another starting outfielder. If that happens then i think that will directly lead to a trade involving Denorfia or Freel. I love this move I really hope he works out even if its just a solid bench player.

Topcat
12-08-2006, 04:06 AM
Lohse? No way.

Guardado? The guy was basically on a list for a ligament donor when he was traded for. That was a losing acquisition all around.

IMO, the jury is still out on Schoeneweis. He threw something like 14 innings last year, though they were effective. I can't say that he was a difference maker. Extremely small sample size.

Ok are you serious ? Guardado was acquired for a prospect whom was recently let go by the Mariners. It cost the Reds nothing but $$$ and Eddie produced while he was active! A player who contributes to a Franchise in the majors at a "very" effective rate , even if for a short period of time is far more valuable than a prospect who gets cut by the team that accepted him in a trade. I must add that it was not at a exorbitant $$$ amount either. Just in case you create a scenario of acquiring a player with a huge salary ;) .

Always Red
12-08-2006, 05:48 AM
Wayne's best move since Phillips IMO.

Unless he stays on the 25 man roster all year and does not play or contribute. This team is not deep enough or good enough to afford that. And then there's the idea of three catchers...

mth123
12-08-2006, 06:19 AM
Unless he stays on the 25 man roster all year and does not play or contribute. This team is not deep enough or good enough to afford that. And then there's the idea of three catchers...

The DL and a those 21 day stints at AAA to get ready are a beautiful thing. I actually think he'd be no worse in the 5th OF role than McCracken, Wise, Hollandsworth et al were last year. They could carry him if they had to. He can play CF defensively so he could be the defensive OF reserve/pinch runner at worst IMO. I'd be getting him some ABs in winter ball if I could.

jojo
12-08-2006, 07:27 AM
Great move!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Uhhhhhhhh........meh...... :pray:

This is dropping 50K and burning a roster spot for branding/marketing...

I give you the Reds feel good hit of the summer (late summer when its the only reason to still come to the ballpark)..... I can't wait to see him get a few swings after a brief September call up.... hearing the spin machine wax poetic about overcoming adversity will make my heat flutter.... I just wish the Reds would do it for real-ya know?

Seriously, good for Josh. I truly wish him only the best from the bottom of my heart. But please....

Team Clark
12-08-2006, 08:37 AM
Who says the D-Rays take him back? I wouldn't be surprised to see us offer him back and the D-Rays pass. Then we ship him down to Chattanooga.

There is probably a 90% or better chance that very scenario will happen. The D-Rays would only take him back if the Reds were going to release him outright.

wheels
12-08-2006, 08:54 AM
Bubba Crosby or Josh Hamilton?

Who would you guys rather see as the 5th outfielder?

Always Red
12-08-2006, 09:30 AM
At this point, Bubba, by far. Not much to pick between, but hey, that's why they're 5th OF'ers.

Hamilton has potential, and I think it's a good pick up. But not to develop him at the MLB level. If Krivsky can manipulate the roster to keep him inactive as much as possible, as mth123 mentions above, then it's good to go ahead and see if Hamilton has anything left.

noskill27
12-08-2006, 10:35 AM
You know what really bugs me about Hamilton? How his story has been protrayed as a feel good story. For what? Correcting a mistake he made? Eric Davis overcoming Cancer to play again was a feel good story. Hamilton's story is a SAD one...

Team Clark
12-08-2006, 10:57 AM
You know what really bugs me about Hamilton? How his story has been protrayed as a feel good story. For what? Correcting a mistake he made? Eric Davis overcoming Cancer to play again was a feel good story. Hamilton's story is a SAD one...

True...but sometimes it FEELS GOOD to be Sad.:laugh:

BTW, I'd take Bubba over Hamilton

lollipopcurve
12-08-2006, 11:09 AM
This is dropping 50K and burning a roster spot for branding/marketing...

This is not Pete Rose Junior or Barry Larkin's brother. This kid had mega-talent.

bucksfan2
12-08-2006, 11:11 AM
This is my first post so hi everyone.

I would take Hamilton over Bubba any day of the week. 5th outfielders are a dime a dozen and it would not be too difficult to replace Bubba with another washed up outfielder or bring one up from the minors to fill his place. Hamilton is that rare tallent that could have a huge upside. I would roll the dice with Hamilton, even though he probably is a long shot, and give him a chance to become what he once was projected to be.

TRF
12-08-2006, 12:24 PM
Ok are you serious ? Guardado was acquired for a prospect whom was recently let go by the Mariners. It cost the Reds nothing but $$$ and Eddie produced while he was active! A player who contributes to a Franchise in the majors at a "very" effective rate , even if for a short period of time is far more valuable than a prospect who gets cut by the team that accepted him in a trade. I must add that it was not at a exorbitant $$$ amount either. Just in case you create a scenario of acquiring a player with a huge salary ;) .

This is off topic, but I'd say acquiring a pitcher YOU KNOW IS INJURED costs more than what you traded for him. What happens is a lesser pitcher has to take his innings. Ryan Franklin leaps to mind.

jojo
12-08-2006, 12:53 PM
.

This is not Pete Rose Junior or Barry Larkin's brother. This kid had mega-talent.

had and he has about 0 chance of being a significant contributor now...

dunner13
12-08-2006, 01:08 PM
He has better then a 0% chance, you dont just lose talent. He still has it and could still develop into a stud major leaguer. The problem is he needs to be starting the season at AA and the reds have to keep him on the 25 man roster. Maybe he will surprise everyone and come out killing the ball in spring training, become our starting right fielder and hit 30 homeruns. Ok im pretty much dreaming.

lollipopcurve
12-08-2006, 02:14 PM
The problem is he needs to be starting the season at AA and the reds have to keep him on the 25 man roster.


This was the situation with Wily Mo, too. Patience will be required.

Chip R
12-08-2006, 02:29 PM
I'd let TB have Moeller and Crosby just so they wouldn't take Hamilton back and we could send him down.

Jpup
12-08-2006, 02:29 PM
This was the situation with Wily Mo, too. Patience will be required.

maybe Hamilton can one day bring back something of value because Boston got ripped off in that deal, at least up to this point.

redsupport
12-08-2006, 02:51 PM
Hamilton has a chance to outperform Greg Tubbs if he works hard

Falls City Beer
12-08-2006, 02:57 PM
had and he has about 0 chance of being a significant contributor now...

Exactly. The Reds will trumpet this feel-good story to the heavens (all part of the "all sizzle and no steak" holdover FO plan to keep the fans interested till the farm kids arrive--cf. the Thom Brennamann signing, Redsfest pimping, etc.) but it will have no positive effect on the things that matter most: scoring runs, and preventing them from scoring.

westofyou
12-08-2006, 03:00 PM
Redsfest pimping

The A's do it too... my friend goes every year.

It's called "marketing" I think the goal is to create a buzz and get people interested in the team while they don't play.

Of course when they didn't do it the past couple of years people complained about that too.

Can't win for trying, can't win for crap.

pedro
12-08-2006, 03:06 PM
This is off topic, but I'd say acquiring a pitcher YOU KNOW IS INJURED costs more than what you traded for him. What happens is a lesser pitcher has to take his innings. Ryan Franklin leaps to mind.

And if the Reds didn't trade for him then the lesser pitchers would have pitched the innings that he did when he wasn't hurt as well as the ones that they did while he was.

texasdave
12-08-2006, 03:08 PM
Did I read somewhere that Josh Hamilton threw in the mid-90's in high school? If he can't make it back as a hitter I am sure that in the back of my head I'll hear Princeton's voice saying, "Put him on the mound. Make him a pitcher".

Falls City Beer
12-08-2006, 03:19 PM
The A's do it too... my friend goes every year.

It's called "marketing" I think the goal is to create a buzz and get people interested in the team while they don't play.

Of course when they didn't do it the past couple of years people complained about that too.

Can't win for trying, can't win for crap.

All that marketing for an empty cause. It makes much more sense to fix the team first, worry about the fripperies later. But this ballclub is like those movie sets of Old West towns: all front, no depth; will topple over in a good wind.

Jpup
12-08-2006, 03:21 PM
All that marketing for an empty cause. It makes much more sense to fix the team first, worry about the fripperies later. But this ballclub is like those movie sets of Old West towns: all front, no depth; will topple over in a good wind.

yeah, but they still need some to come to the ball park in the mean time.

SeeinRed
12-08-2006, 03:27 PM
All that marketing for an empty cause. It makes much more sense to fix the team first, worry about the fripperies later. But this ballclub is like those movie sets of Old West towns: all front, no depth; will topple over in a good wind.

Its a business. It still has to operate reguardless of how the team performs. You want people to show up while you are rebuilding, right? Why stop everything until you rebuild the team? You still have to play the games every year. I just don't understand your point. Besides, what if anything did the marketing for Redsfest take from the baseball side of the Team. If anything, it helped generate more intrest, leading to more revenue, leading to the improvement of this team. The new Unis are going to help revenue a little, and before you say very little, remember that that is still a little more than this team had before. The Reds will not lose any money, or players for that matter, because of Redsfest.

Ltlabner
12-08-2006, 03:33 PM
All that marketing for an empty cause. It makes much more sense to fix the team first, worry about the fripperies later. But this ballclub is like those movie sets of Old West towns: all front, no depth; will topple over in a good wind.

Should they do away with other "fripperies" such as seats in the stadium and support of the Reds community fund? After all, none of those have anything to do with scroing runs and preventing the other team from doing the same.

westofyou
12-08-2006, 03:34 PM
All that marketing for an empty cause. It makes much more sense to fix the team first, worry about the fripperies later.

Work in the academic world do ya?

Falls City Beer
12-08-2006, 03:35 PM
Its a business. It still has to operate reguardless of how the team performs. You want people to show up while you are rebuilding, right? Why stop everything until you rebuild the team? You still have to play the games every year. I just don't understand your point. Besides, what if anything did the marketing for Redsfest take from the baseball side of the Team. If anything, it helped generate more intrest, leading to more revenue, leading to the improvement of this team. The new Unis are going to help revenue a little, and before you say very little, remember that that is still a little more than this team had before. The Reds will not lose any money, or players for that matter, because of Redsfest.

I don't have a problem with the marketing per se. It's just that it's a band-aid on a cancerous ulcer. Something I understood wasn't going to happen when Castellini took over--my understanding was that they were going to put a winner on the field.

Ltlabner
12-08-2006, 03:36 PM
I don't have a problem with the marketing per se. It's just that it's a band-aid on a cancerous ulcer. Something I understood wasn't going to happen when Castellini took over--my understanding was that they were going to put a winner on the field.

Hint...it is possible to do both at the same time. They are not mutally exclusive activities.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2006, 03:37 PM
Hint...it is possible to do both at the same time.

Really? :rolleyes:

But they're only doing the one, and not the other. That's the stinking point!

Ltlabner
12-08-2006, 03:39 PM
Really? :rolleyes:

But they're only doing the one, and not the other. That's the stinking point!

No, they aren't doing the one you want, how you want it done, in the time frame you would like it done.

That's a far cry from "not" doing one of them.

Spring~Fields
12-08-2006, 03:47 PM
No, they aren't doing the one you want, how you want it done, in the time frame you would like it done.

That's a far cry from "not" doing one of them.

I have to ask, and I am not being sarcastic, I just donít know how else to ask the question.

Do you think that the Reds will have a winning team in 2007 as it stands right now? a team that wins more games than it loses?

redsupport
12-08-2006, 03:51 PM
do youthink he is a better pitcher than Joey Hamilton

TRF
12-08-2006, 03:58 PM
And if the Reds didn't trade for him then the lesser pitchers would have pitched the innings that he did when he wasn't hurt as well as the ones that they did while he was.

no. what they should have done was not trade for an injured pitcher. period.

Then follow that up with not trading for crap.

yeah, it's a kooky plan, but it has it's merits.


Look, I'd have had no problem dealing for Guardado in the offseason, even coming off an injury. but in the middle of the season? when the reds were still in the hunt? When he goes down, they have to scramble to fill roles, and put guys in roles they weren't meant for. Like pitching Shack against RH hitters or pitching Franklin at all.

bradmu
12-08-2006, 04:00 PM
do youthink he is a better pitcher than Joey Hamilton

I'd hate to think that Joey Hamilton is a better pitcher than anybody. Except maybe Joe Mays Jeff Austin. Anyone remember Jeff Austin's 9 run first inning where he got no outs? Something like 9 runs, I can't remember exactly. I think he was cut the next day.

Ltlabner
12-08-2006, 04:01 PM
I have to ask, and I am not being sarcastic, I just donít know how else to ask the question.

Do you think that the Reds will have a winning team in 2007 as it stands right now? a team that wins more games than it loses?

As it stands this very minute. No. Not at all. I agree that there are big holes to fill. Starting pitching, another big bat (preferably a RH bat at 1B) and maybe (a very distant 3rd) a closer. If we don't fill those holes it will take luck and possible implosion of the other teams in the division to be relevant.

I am also perplexed at the silence from the FO. I think the wild FA market sent them back to the drawing board and possibly wrecked whatever game plan they had mapped out.

But I DON'T opperate under the assumption that the team, as it stands now, will be the same one that takes the field in April. I opperate under the assumption that BCast and Krivsky are not lieing scoundrals and will continue to make moves prior to opening day.

I will say, that if we get to that point, and there are no more changes (or only very Chad Moller-esque ones) without a very clear explination/valid reason (and I can't think of many) from Bob C himself, then I will join the crowd who are displeased with the FO with vocal (or internet, I guess) displeasure. That would undermine my trust in the FO.

Spring~Fields
12-08-2006, 04:06 PM
As it stands this very minute. No. Not at all. I agree that there are big holes to fill. Starting pitching, another big bat (preferably a RH bat at 1B) and maybe (a very distant 3rd) a closer. If we don't fill those holes it will take luck and possible implosion of the other teams in the division to be relevant.

I am also perplexed at the silence from the FO. I think the wild FA market sent them back to the drawing board and possibly wrecked whatever game plan they had mapped out.

But I DON'T opperate under the assumption that the team, as it stands now, will be the same one that takes the field in April. I opperate under the assumption that BCast and Krivsky are not lieing scoundrals and will continue to make moves prior to opening day.

I will say, that if we get to that point, and there are no more changes (or only very Chad Moller-esque ones) without a very clear explination/valid reason (and I can't think of many) from Bob C himself, then I will join the crowd who are displeased with the FO with vocal (or internet, I guess) displeasure. That would undermine my trust in the FO.

Thank you,
I thought that I was misperceiving you and leave it to me, I was.

Good explanation!

maniem
12-08-2006, 04:09 PM
Let's just hope that Hamilton doesn't end up like Toe Nash. Can you imagine what would have happened if that guy would have ever made it? Talk about raw talent...

SeeinRed
12-08-2006, 04:11 PM
I have to ask, and I am not being sarcastic, I just donít know how else to ask the question.

Do you think that the Reds will have a winning team in 2007 as it stands right now? a team that wins more games than it loses?


No, but the question was are the Reds worse off because of the marketing attributed to Redsfest? The answer there is no. Now I see FCB's real question was are the Reds improving on marketing and not the team. The answer there is not as simple, and we will have to wait and see to get a definate answer. I personally believe that claiming that it is points to impatience. This team is far from a one year fixer-uper. Last year, by all accounts, was a case of a team playing over its head and playing in a weak division. To expect much improvement as far as the team's record is concerned, just doesn't make much sense.

Claiming that the Reds haven't done enough this offseason is unfair. They aren't going to go throw money around for the players available like other teams have (ie. the Cubs). Plus, there is still a whole lot of time to pull off a trade. I Don't believe for a second that the team as it is now is the team we will see on opening day. Maybe I'm just overly optomistic, but we aren't the only ones who see the glaring holes, Wayne sees them too. The only difference is we don't know who is available and for what price. All we know are rumors that may or may not be true.

TRF
12-08-2006, 04:11 PM
I've really questioned Krivsky on a lot of his moves. But I have no doubt he wants to field a winner. I also believe DanO wanted to field a winner too.

But for some reason, I don't think either guy is well rounded enough to get the job done. DanO had some good idea, and under him the Reds farm system did improve. They certainly drafted better. I don't know how much of that was him, or the people he brought in, but it is truth.

Krivsky is a very good bargain shopper. Not like Bowden, who was a scrap heap picker. Krivsky finds silver that's tarnished. He gets it cheap, polishes it up and voila! A silver tea service. Phillips and Ross are perfect examples of this, and to a lesser extent so is Arroyo. Remember, Bronson was slated for the pen in Boston. And now we have Josh Hamilton. Certainly at one time he was among the brightest potential stars in baseball. Now he has tarnish and rust. Gonna be tough to clean up, but if it can be cleaned, it's going to be worth a lot.

But Krivsky has done nothing to fix the Reds biggest weakness: quality starting pitching. He has acquired no quality starters at any level other than Arroyo. And no, Lohse is not quality.

What he has done is acquire aging relievers, a defensive wizard that cannot hit, he's done nothing about the OF defense, which almost demands that Dunn be moved to 1B and Jr. move to LF.

In short, he's gotten a couple of supp picks for some departing FA's and aged the team. Without making them discernibly better.

Props to him for Josh Hamilton, especially if a deal can be worked with TB so he can be sent to Chatt. But if this is it, 2007 is gonna be another long season.

Red Leader
12-08-2006, 04:12 PM
OOOOOOHHHHH, I thought all along this was Joey Hamilton.

I was wondering why people thought this was such a great move....


;)

redsupport
12-08-2006, 04:18 PM
the signing is epic, it is Brobdinagian, gargantuan, the power rankins have been immutably altered. The last time the rankings changes as much was when the reds signed Mark Kroon

Spring~Fields
12-08-2006, 06:51 PM
The answer there is not as simple, and we will have to wait and see to get a definate answer. I personally believe that claiming that it is points to impatience. This team is far from a one year fixer-uper. Last year, by all accounts, was a case of a team playing over its head and playing in a weak division. To expect much improvement as far as the team's record is concerned, just doesn't make much sense.

Claiming that the Reds haven't done enough this offseason is unfair. They aren't going to go throw money around for the players available like other teams have (ie. the Cubs). Plus, there is still a whole lot of time to pull off a trade. I Don't believe for a second that the team as it is now is the team we will see on opening day. Maybe I'm just overly optomistic, but we aren't the only ones who see the glaring holes, Wayne sees them too. The only difference is we don't know who is available and for what price. All we know are rumors that may or may not be true.

What you have expressed here I believe can still turn out to be right, there is still time, sports is situations and those can still work out.

Krivsky has to be making those steps along the way to make it so but it can be done. I do slightly disagree on what it will take to turn this club around this year as I do believe that another good starter to go along with the Harang and Arroyo that we saw last year coupled with a reliable closer can get this team to the top of the division. Another bat to help the run differential and they could be right there.

I do believe that solid pitching or I should say that a quality starter is worth the price, I just don't see that as throwing money around carelessly, but a necessary part of doing business in the majors.

On marketing, the Redsfest is a good vehicle to get in touch with the fans, and to give something back to the fans.

Mr. Hamilton I really don't know what to think about this move as it is rather untraditional and he has some serious percentages working against him health wise.

Gallen5862
12-08-2006, 10:30 PM
This is interesting that Josh Hamilton can be a free agent if he cleared outright waivers. Baseball america loves the move.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/askba/262990.html

Do you think Josh Hamilton will stick on a major league roster through the entire season, or will the Reds have to offer him back to the Devil Rays at some point? If so, would Tampa Bay take him back?

Paul Masson
Quebec City
I've been at Baseball America since the 1988 Winter Meetings, and I don't remember there ever being as much buzz surrounding a major league Rule 5 draft pick as there was when the Cubs took Hamilton this week and then traded him to the Reds. The No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft, Hamilton ranked atop our 2001 Top 100 Prospects list before a lengthy series of injuries and substance abuse derailed a promising career.

Hamilton has just 50 at-bats total over the last four years—all of them coming in 2006 before he hurt his knee and needed arthroscopic surgery—and just 89 above Class A since turning pro. So he wouldn't be ready for the major leagues even if he suddenly regained all the talent he had earlier in his career.

That said, I could see him sticking with the Reds. For one, they only have four legitimate big league outfielders on their roster right now and they reportedly would like to trade one of those, Adam Dunn. Even if Hamilton can't make the club, it's possible Cincinnati could work out a trade with Tampa Bay for his rights, which would allow him to go to the minors. The Devil Rays were upset to lose him, not because he's a prospect, but because he needs stability and regular playing time. The Rays could decide it's in his best interests for them to make a deal with the Reds.

If that doesn't happen, Rule 5 mandates that Hamilton spend the entire 2007 season on the major league roster. (Cincinnati could stash him on the disabled list, but he needs 90 days on the active roster before he could be sent to the minors in 2008.) To send him down in 2007, the Reds would have to put him on outright waivers, allowing him to be claimed by any club, which would face the same guidelines.

Normally, Rule 5 picks have to be offered to their former team for half the $50,000 draft price, but Hamilton is an exception. Because he already has been placed on outright waivers, he can declare free agency if he clears them this time, though he also could accept his reassignment to the Devil Rays.

It's far from certain how all this will play out, but it did send a jolt through the Rule 5 draft and the potential payoff, however small the likelihood of the payoff, makes it a low-cost gamble worth taking.

jojo
12-09-2006, 08:34 AM
Really? :rolleyes:

But they're only doing the one, and not the other. That's the stinking point!

HIGH FIVE