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View Full Version : What's Left Out Their For The Redlegs..



RedLegSuperStar
12-07-2006, 04:58 PM
We know the Reds are hunting for a 5th starter to build compitition with Ramirez, Claussen, Belisle, & Dumatrait. Also the Reds have be looking for a Rich Aurilia type player to not only platoon with Hatteberg at 1st but to play 3rd, 2nd, and purhaps OF. So I thought why not see what is left in the FA market that might fall into the Reds budget.

Starters:

Tony Armas Jr.
Shawn Estes
Rick Helling
Jason Marquis
Brian Moehler
Mark Mulder
Tomo Ohka
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Mark Redman
Aaron Sele
John Thompson
Steve Trachsel

INF/OF Platoons

Aaron Boone
Jeremy Burnitz
Jeff Cirillo
Darin Erstad
Shea Hillandbrand
Aubrey Huff (maybe..might be pushing the budget)
Ryan Klesko
Mark Loretta
John Mabry
Doug Mientkiewicz
Phil Nevin
Trot Nixon
Eduardo Perez
Fernando Tatis
Craig Wilson
Chris Woodward

What do you think is possible? What do you wish for out of these?

Always Red
12-07-2006, 05:07 PM
Tomo Ohka would look good in one those snazzy new Reds uni's.

dabvu2498
12-07-2006, 05:08 PM
Depressing.

Falls City Beer
12-07-2006, 05:08 PM
Freakin' depressing. Already picking through the table scraps.

Red Leader
12-07-2006, 05:12 PM
Puffy likes Jeremy Burnitz.

Spring~Fields
12-07-2006, 05:13 PM
What's Left Out Their For The Redlegs..

4th place! and excuses

Aronchis
12-07-2006, 05:26 PM
What's Left Out Their For The Redlegs..

4th place! and excuses

Nope, 4th place and tear down. 2003 redux. Wayne is basing the Reds rebuilding around Bailey, if he blows out his arm, Wayne is fired lol......:beerme:

Falls City Beer
12-07-2006, 05:28 PM
if he blows out his arm, Wayne is fired lol......:beerme:

Promise?

maniem
12-07-2006, 05:34 PM
I'd take Wilson and Ohka. Although Ohka could cost 10 mil/yr, considering what Lilly and Meche got...Ohka stats are pretty similar to both of them, if not better...Not to mention he's slightly more a of groundball pitcher...If he could be had for 3 yr/24 mil, would you do it?

BEETTLEBUG
12-07-2006, 06:15 PM
Ohka yes for 3yrs 24mil

vaticanplum
12-07-2006, 06:20 PM
We know the Reds are hunting for a 5th starter to build compitition with Ramirez, Claussen, Belisle, & Dumatrait. Also the Reds have be looking for a Rich Aurilia type player to not only platoon with Hatteberg at 1st but to play 3rd, 2nd, and purhaps OF. So I thought why not see what is left in the FA market that might fall into the Reds budget.

Starters:

Tony Armas Jr.
Shawn Estes
Rick Helling
Jason Marquis
Brian Moehler
Mark Mulder
Tomo Ohka
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Mark Redman
Aaron Sele
John Thompson
Steve Trachsel

My avatar feels slighted ;)

dougdirt
12-07-2006, 06:23 PM
Freakin' depressing. Already picking through the table scraps.

Thats about all that was available this year....at any point in time.

Highlifeman21
12-07-2006, 06:31 PM
We know the Reds are hunting for a 5th starter to build compitition with Ramirez, Claussen, Belisle, & Dumatrait. Also the Reds have be looking for a Rich Aurilia type player to not only platoon with Hatteberg at 1st but to play 3rd, 2nd, and purhaps OF. So I thought why not see what is left in the FA market that might fall into the Reds budget.

Starters:

Tony Armas Jr.
Shawn Estes
Rick Helling
Jason Marquis
Brian Moehler
Mark Mulder
Tomo Ohka
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Mark Redman
Aaron Sele
John Thompson
Steve Trachsel

INF/OF Platoons

Aaron Boone
Jeremy Burnitz
Jeff Cirillo
Darin Erstad
Shea Hillandbrand
Aubrey Huff (maybe..might be pushing the budget)
Ryan Klesko
Mark Loretta
John Mabry
Doug Mientkiewicz
Phil Nevin
Trot Nixon
Eduardo Perez
Fernando Tatis
Craig Wilson
Chris Woodward

What do you think is possible? What do you wish for out of these?

The bolded are the only ones the Reds should pursue, IMO.

BEETTLEBUG
12-07-2006, 07:07 PM
I agree except add Marquis

redsupport
12-07-2006, 07:17 PM
Marquis is a better hitter than half the reds

Strikes Out Looking
12-07-2006, 07:35 PM
Marquis is a better hitter than half the reds

And half the Reds batters are better pitchers than Marquis!

Rojo
12-07-2006, 07:39 PM
Freakin' depressing. Already picking through the table scraps.


Yeah, we will really missed the boat on the Juan Pierre's and Gil Meche's.

Falls City Beer
12-07-2006, 07:41 PM
Yeah, we will really missed the boat on the Juan Pierre's and Gil Meche's.

The Rafael Sorianos and the Doug Davises....

jmac
12-07-2006, 07:49 PM
Yeah, we will really missed the boat on the Juan Pierre's and Gil Meche's.

them you mentioned ....no !
others that have been signed or traded for.......yes !

i heard on a chicago station(espn1000),the stros and sox had serious discussions on tavaras and bucholz(yeah spelled wrong) goin to sox for garland. Said talks have apparently broken off.
would reds fans be interested in garland for freel and ???
The sox are wanting to move McCarthy into rotation.

Tigs
12-07-2006, 07:56 PM
The Rafael Sorianos and the Doug Davises....and I will add the David Delluccis, the Chad Bradfords

edabbs44
12-07-2006, 08:04 PM
I heard Wayne was the last to leave Orlando, lurking behind at the Swan and Dolphin.

http://www.johnnyjet.com/images/PicForNewsletterJan2004chicagoGARBAGEMAN.jpg

Seriously though, of course there will be quotes tomorrow (and there are one's in the papers already) where WK talks about how this isn't the only venue to acquire players. Then come January he'll be calling Rick White and Chris Hammond, asking if they have any interest in a minor league deal. This is starting to be like Groundhog Day, except it's Groundhog Year.

vaticanplum
12-07-2006, 08:11 PM
Zito hasn't signed.

In this market, there is no freaking way that teams aren't chasing after the man who is perceived by many to be the best free agent pitcher. And I don't care if you, reader, personally don't consider him to be that: it doesn't even matter. Perception seems to count for a lot this season. Even on the off-chance that you don't think Zito will help any given team, he is not likely to be viewed that way. In a world in which Gil Meche and Alfonso Soriano, among others, have signed to insane contracts, Zito is not likely to be viewed as overpaid unless he is signed for $35 million a year.

Thus, in my bastard geometrical proof:

Point 1. Zito stands to make a lot of money.

Point 2. Teams are spending a lot of money.

Point 3. Zito hasn't signed yet.

Point 4. no one has offered Zito money (highly unlikely) or

Point 4. Money has proven not to be enough for Zito to sign.

Point 5. Zito is open to personal appeal.

Point 6. There is nothing more personal than singing children.

Ok, whatever, my point is that Zito is still available and the Reds still need a starting pitcher. I don't know why the simplest solution to this dual dilemma isn't clear to everybody else.

Rojo
12-07-2006, 08:28 PM
The Rafael Sorianos and the Doug Davises....

I missed them on the free agent list.

Chip R
12-07-2006, 08:39 PM
Point 6. There is nothing more personal than singing children.


Still on the singing children angle, eh? Did you mention that to Wayne on Friday? :)

While Zito may love singing children, I'm guessing Boros isn't going to be moved so easily.

RedLegSuperStar
12-07-2006, 09:00 PM
on Tomo Ohka for you Ohka nuts..


The Nationals have offered free agent Tomo Ohka a contract, but it's not quite to his liking.

Ohka may be looking for something similar to the one-year, $4 million contract Kip Wells received from the Cardinals. He would like to return to Washington, but the Nationals are admittedly going cheap.

Spring~Fields
12-07-2006, 09:14 PM
Zito hasn't signed.

In this market, there is no freaking way that teams aren't chasing after the man who is perceived by many to be the best free agent pitcher. And I don't care if you, reader, personally don't consider him to be that: it doesn't even matter. Perception seems to count for a lot this season. Even on the off-chance that you don't think Zito will help any given team, he is not likely to be viewed that way. In a world in which Gil Meche and Alfonso Soriano, among others, have signed to insane contracts, Zito is not likely to be viewed as overpaid unless he is signed for $35 million a year.

Thus, in my bastard geometrical proof:

Point 1. Zito stands to make a lot of money.

Point 2. Teams are spending a lot of money.

Point 3. Zito hasn't signed yet.

Point 4. no one has offered Zito money (highly unlikely) or

Point 4. Money has proven not to be enough for Zito to sign.

Point 5. Zito is open to personal appeal.

Point 6. There is nothing more personal than singing children.

Ok, whatever, my point is that Zito is still available and the Reds still need a starting pitcher. I don't know why the simplest solution to this dual dilemma isn't clear to everybody else.

I like that showing of some heart and can do.

I think the fans would appreciate it if the Reds did make an offer to a top performer even if he tossed it back across the table to them with a chuckle.

They know their finances and they could at least take a shot, step up to the plate throw their best pitch, even if it was rejected. It is a given that they canít match large markets and of course some will correctly say that we or I donít know if they did or didnít make some offers, perhaps that is a part of the PR that needs a boost by letting the fans know that they do take their best shot even if it is rejected. We all look almost everyday to see if there is even a rumor worthy to get excited about, and to see or find next to nothing I donít think is good.

Take their best shot, let the fans know that they did and if they are rejected or the price is too ridiculous then fine.

Falls City Beer
12-07-2006, 09:18 PM
I missed them on the free agent list.

I didn't realize the free agent way was the only way. I'm talking about player movement, period.

vaticanplum
12-07-2006, 09:31 PM
While Zito may love singing children, I'm guessing Boros isn't going to be moved so easily.

Boras works for Zito. Not the other way around.

Chip R
12-07-2006, 10:26 PM
I don't understand why Puffy never told us about that. I thought he was the figure skating expert. ;)

I hear you, VP. Your ideas make me smile and not in a condescending way. I've said for the last several years that the Reds cannot compete dollar for dollar with the New Yorks or Chicagos or LAs. What they have to do is do other things better than those teams. Maybe it's singing children. Maybe it's having the best medical experts for the players. Perhaps it is having the best coaching staff for the players. Maybe they should have the best facilities in baseball. Or have players' families treated like royalty. I don't know but they have to have something more to offer besides money.

Sure, there's not much of a difference between $12M and $16M. None of these guys are going to starve because of $4M. But it's a way of keeping score. Player Z makes more than Player S and makes sure Player S knows about it. Might be a guy thing, I dunno. The Players Association and the agents love it cause if a Zito can get $15M a year, a guy like Meche can get $10M. A guy like Zito doesn't strike me as materialistic. But I'm sure he has given Boros his marching orders. Maybe he wants to stay on the west coast and pitch in a big ball park and surf. He can do all that in San Diego but not here. But I'm also sure he wants to be paid like one of the best pitchers in baseball and the Reds have said time and again that he is out of their league financially.

People complain about the Yankees throwing money at players. But you know as well as I do that NYC has different things to offer than Cincinnati does. If a player desires the national spotlight, New York is the place to be. A guy like Pedro Martinez may have wanted to pitch in NYC because of the large Dominican population there. He can't get that here for any amount of money. Every city has its advantages and disadvantages. What the Reds have to figure out is how to make their advantages work for them.

You and SF and everyone else who has said that the Reds need to take a shot are on the money. But just taking a shot and missing, while perhaps being good for the short term psyche of the fans, doesn't accomplish the goal. You keep shooting and if you keep missing, no one's going to care much when you shoot again. You have to hit the target every now and then. I think the Reds could afford Zito. I posted something about it last week. But even though Bob comes off as aggressive, deep down I still think he isn't any different than Carl in the sense that he's not going to take a big financial chance to make the team better. Say what you want about Carl but at least he gave the go ahead to get Jr. - which was a pretty big financial risk. The biggest thing Bob has done is bring back Thom Brennaman.

I wish you could translate your love for the Reds to players like Zito, VP. But if Texas is offering him $16M, the Mets $14M and the Reds $5M, I think that no matter how much he loves the Reds, he's going to go somewhere else.

vaticanplum
12-07-2006, 10:38 PM
But if Texas is offering him $16M, the Mets $14M and the Reds $5M, I think that no matter how much he loves the Reds, he's going to go somewhere else.

Oh, definitely. If that's the case the Reds need to pony up minimum $12 million + awesomeness. You cannot insult players in what is a legitimate market, and without knowing the details of the Reds' finances, I think they could be spending a lot more money right now than they are. I just think that they need another angle too. I'm not sure that if they even had the money, it'd be enough.

Nugget
12-08-2006, 12:26 AM
I missed them on the free agent list.


That's because they weren't. We have our own David Delluci in Freel and Deno.

mth123
12-08-2006, 06:11 AM
That's because they weren't. We have our own David Delluci in Freel and Deno.

Actually we don't. I agree that the Reds need one of Freel or Denorfia but the other needs to be exchanged for some one with more power. The 4th OF on this team is frequently going to be subbing for Griffey (and Dunn should get a little more time off than he has). The line-up will be downright awful if either Griffey or Dunn is out and both Freel and Deno are in the OF. The Reds need a 4th OF who has the ability to fill-in in CF but the power to play a corner. Its why I've been pushing for Jay Payton. He could play CF some and has enough power to fill-in for Griffey or Dunn in short stretches.

On this list, I'd sign Payton and Wilson and make Freel, Lohse and Cormier tradebait for a pitcher and/or propsects. If no pitcher can be had, sign Ohka and trade all those guys for prospects.

It would probably take about $15 Million to sign Payton, Wilson and Ohka. Freel, Cormier and Lohse make about $10 Million. If I had to cut back a little, I'd substitute Eduardo Perez for Wilson and save about $3 to $3.5 Million.

Spring~Fields
12-08-2006, 07:04 AM
Oh, definitely. If that's the case the Reds need to pony up minimum $12 million + awesomeness. You cannot insult players in what is a legitimate market, and without knowing the details of the Reds' finances, I think they could be spending a lot more money right now than they are. I just think that they need another angle too. I'm not sure that if they even had the money, it'd be enough.

Four year 15 million + awesomeness would that be out of the question for a quality pitcher to go along with Harang and Arroyo?

Your reference regarding a draw to attract quality players seems correct and also fits the core players that the Reds currently have and wish to retain into the next seasons. They too will be considering various factors that matter to them tangible and intangible. I am concerned that Arroyo and Harang will move to larger market teams when the opportunity makes itself available to them and that will keep the Reds in rebuild mode, and the fans with the manager, general manager and ownership speak that we are so accustomed to vs. a good on the field product year after year.

RANDY IN INDY
12-08-2006, 08:10 AM
I am glad that Krivsky didn't "knee-jerk" and make a deal for making a deal's sake. There is still plenty of time to make a few smart moves that will help the Reds this season. I can't say that I totally understand the Stanton signing, but I am still not ready to give up on Krivsky.

The money that they are throwing around to what I consider average major league talent is making me love my little lefthander's prospects!:D In all seriousness, I hope the Reds refrain from throwing money at the so-so's. I would rather see some youngsters get a chance.

RFS62
12-08-2006, 08:24 AM
Puffy likes Jeremy Burnitz.


Yeah, but Jeremy stopped returning his calls, and there is that nasty restraining order thing.

wheels
12-08-2006, 09:02 AM
I'd make a play for Ohka for a one year 4 million dollar deal.

Try to negotiate with him later if you want to keep him, or really cash in big time at the deadline if he's pitching well and doesn't show an inclination towards staying.

The Reds have the money to do it, and to bring Craig Wilson in as well.

Insane Wayne probably has other ideas, though.

Red Leader
12-08-2006, 09:09 AM
Reds interested in Cirillo?

The Minneapolis Star-Tribune's LaVelle E. Neal III reports the Minnesota Twins may offer free-agent 3B Jeff Cirillo (Brewers) a one-year contract worth around $1 million plus incentives. The Brewers and Cincinnati Reds are also interested in the infielder.

Johnny Footstool
12-08-2006, 10:10 AM
Point 6. There is nothing more personal than singing children.

If that's all it takes to sign Zito, I'll personally put on a hand-written "I Wuv Mommy" t-shirt and sing bass in the RedsZone Mountain Kids Jubilee Jug Band.

larks
12-08-2006, 01:11 PM
I know the Reds already have plenty of relievers but I really think David Riske is still worth signing. If they could sign him to a 2-3 year deal at a decent price Id be all for it. He's always been a very solid major league reliever.

Rojo
12-08-2006, 01:20 PM
I didn't realize the free agent way was the only way. I'm talking about player movement, period.

Yeah, don't let the thread topic get in the way of your knee jerking.

fearofpopvol1
12-08-2006, 01:24 PM
I'd go after Marquis for the right price. A bit inconsistent last year but he's not a bad pitcher and if the price is right...how could this guy not be a positive addition to the club?

Chip R
12-08-2006, 01:44 PM
I'd go after Marquis for the right price. A bit inconsistent last year but he's not a bad pitcher and if the price is right...how could this guy not be a positive addition to the club?


Actually he is a bad pitcher. He was so bad the Cards wouldn't activate him for the playoffs. The guy couldn't get it done in ATL with Leo Mazzone there and couldn't get it done in StL with Dave Duncan.

Red Leader
12-08-2006, 01:46 PM
Actually he is a bad pitcher. He was so bad the Cards wouldn't activate him for the playoffs. The guy couldn't get it done in ATL with Leo Mazzone there and couldn't get it done in StL with Dave Duncan.

Agreed. If you have those two as pitching coaches and you're not a good pitcher, well then, you're not a good pitcher.

It looks like the Cubs are going to sign Marquis.

Chip R
12-08-2006, 01:48 PM
It looks like the Cubs are going to sign Marquis.


Don't say things like that unless you're serious. I don't want to die from LMAO prematurely.

Red Leader
12-08-2006, 01:51 PM
Don't say things like that unless you're serious. I don't want to die from LMAO prematurely.

Have at it:



The St. Louis Post-Dispatch says that free agent Jason Marquis is believed to be close to signing with the Cubs.

The Cubs are seemingly the only team that's displayed any real interest in him since the conclusion of the season, though that probably would have changed now that the better pitchers are disappearing from the market. If Marquis joins the Cubs, he'd likely be the fourth starter behind Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly and Rich Hill. Mark Prior and Wade Miller would be the leading candidates for the final spot in the rotation.

Doc. Scott
12-08-2006, 01:54 PM
Actually he is a bad pitcher. He was so bad the Cards wouldn't activate him for the playoffs. The guy couldn't get it done in ATL with Leo Mazzone there and couldn't get it done in StL with Dave Duncan.

But he can hit, and the Reds will need another pinch-hitter for the bench with Chad Moeller sitting there picking splinters out of his ass.

Chip R
12-08-2006, 01:56 PM
But he can hit, and the Reds will need another pinch-hitter for the bench with Chad Moeller sitting there picking splinters out of his ass.


Oh, he can hit. He might get 15 HRs next year.

Jpup
12-08-2006, 02:52 PM
Mark Prior and Wade Miller would be the leading candidates for the final spot in the rotation.

Mark Prior and final spot in the rotation doesn't even sound right.

Red Leader
12-08-2006, 02:53 PM
Mark Prior and final spot in the rotation doesn't even sound right.

I know. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Cubs, but that's a pretty sad story. I'd like to see Prior go elsewhere and succeed. Like Cincinnati.

Jpup
12-08-2006, 02:55 PM
I know. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Cubs, but that's a pretty sad story. I'd like to see Prior go elsewhere and succeed. Like Cincinnati.

same here. I would surely kick the tires on a possible deal for him. I just can't imagine the Cubs giving up on him.

fearofpopvol1
12-08-2006, 03:21 PM
Agreed. If you have those two as pitching coaches and you're not a good pitcher, well then, you're not a good pitcher.

It looks like the Cubs are going to sign Marquis.

2004 - 3.71
2005 - 4.13
2006 - 6.02
Career - 4.55

How does stack up against the Reds starting rotation right now? Oh let's see, it's better than everyone except Harang and Arroyo (and Aaron and Bronson's career era's aren't significantly better).

The guy had a bad 2006...but a great 2004 and a strong 2005. I think for the right price it would make sense.

RedsManRick
12-08-2006, 03:33 PM
2004 - 3.71
2005 - 4.13
2006 - 6.02
Career - 4.55

How does stack up against the Reds starting rotation right now? Oh let's see, it's better than everyone except Harang and Arroyo (and Aaron and Bronson's career era's aren't significantly better).

The guy had a bad 2006...but a great 2004 and a strong 2005. I think for the right price it would make sense.

With Marquis, the problem is simply that he puts way too many balls in play, walks a lot of guys, and gives us a lot of homers despite a ground ball tendency. With the best defense in the league behind you, you can minimize some of that -- and he was successful when he had that great Cards D and kept the ball in the yard.

Last year he walked more, struck out fewer, and gave up more homers -- and he stunk. I'm gonna guess that the Cards' defensive efficient was down last year too. I look at Marquis and think that Elizardo Ramirez is at least his equivalent and certainly much much cheaper.

GoGoWhiteSox
12-08-2006, 04:48 PM
We know the Reds are hunting for a 5th starter to build compitition with Ramirez, Claussen, Belisle, & Dumatrait. Also the Reds have be looking for a Rich Aurilia type player to not only platoon with Hatteberg at 1st but to play 3rd, 2nd, and purhaps OF. So I thought why not see what is left in the FA market that might fall into the Reds budget.

Starters:

Tony Armas Jr.
Shawn Estes
Rick Helling
Jason Marquis
Brian Moehler
Mark Mulder
Tomo Ohka
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Mark Redman
Aaron Sele
John Thompson
Steve Trachsel


Is Mark Mulder hurt? Because if he's going into the 2007 season healthy and ready to go, why not sign him? The Reds would get him at a sort of bargain price, and if he ends up turning into what he was in Oakland, the payoff will be HUGE!

NJReds
12-08-2006, 04:50 PM
Mulder's been talking to a lot of teams (or so it's been reported). He's got a shoulder problem.

Red Leader
12-08-2006, 04:52 PM
Is Mark Mulder hurt? Because if he's going into the 2007 season healthy and ready to go, why not sign him? The Reds would get him at a sort of bargain price, and if he ends up turning into what he was in Oakland, the payoff will be HUGE!

He is hurt. It's been said that he most likely won't be ready to take his first start of the 2007 season until at least June 1st. He's not going to be allowed to throw off a mound until at least March 1st. He had work done on his shoulder. He's definitely not a sure bet for the 2007 season.

GoGoWhiteSox
12-08-2006, 07:13 PM
Mulder's been talking to a lot of teams (or so it's been reported). He's got a shoulder problem.


He is hurt. It's been said that he most likely won't be ready to take his first start of the 2007 season until at least June 1st. He's not going to be allowed to throw off a mound until at least March 1st. He had work done on his shoulder. He's definitely not a sure bet for the 2007 season.

Ok, thanks for the information.:) I was wondering why I wasn't really hearing his name among the big free agents.