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captainmorgan07
12-09-2006, 10:01 PM
on draft day robert goddell would walk to the podium and say with whatever pick in the nfl draft the cleveland browns select troy smith quaterback THE ohio state universt for many reasons

A.) heck of a quaterback and athlete
B.)From the cleveland area would bring alot of fans in and if you know his story this man is a role model for inner city kids
C.)Charlie Fry just aint gettin it done

traderumor
12-09-2006, 10:03 PM
I wouldn't wish that on Troy.

Caveat Emperor
12-09-2006, 10:06 PM
on draft day robert goddell would walk to the podium and say with whatever pick in the nfl draft the cleveland browns select troy smith quaterback THE ohio state universt for many reasons

A.) heck of a quaterback and athlete
B.)From the cleveland area would bring alot of fans in and if you know his story this man is a role model for inner city kids
C.)Charlie Fry just aint gettin it done

For as much as Troy Smith gets trumpted, very little is said about how amazing his supporting cast is at the college of columbus.

When you've got Ted Ginn and Anthony Gonzlez split on either side and Antonio Pittman in the backfield, it'd be hard not to find some success as a quarterback.

Troy Smith has looked great, but there are any number of QBs playing in college right now that would look great with those guys around him.

He's a hell of a player, but I wonder how effective he'll be at the next level. I'm not nearly certain enough to put a top-10 pick on him, or even a first round pick at all.

captainmorgan07
12-09-2006, 10:06 PM
I wouldn't wish that on Troy.

me either trust me im not a browns fan in anyway cowboys fan but in my mind it just all sounded like it would be a good fit for both

Virginia Beach Reds
12-09-2006, 10:32 PM
Troy Smith doesn't project anything better than a clipboard holder until year 4. He had a great collegiate season this year.

I don't think anyone has him higher than round 2 on the draft board. If I were a Troy Smith fan (am not), I'd hope for him to be drafted by a middle to upper team so he wouldn't have to start immediately.

Since Vince Young is doing so well the last half of the year, I see him a 2nd rounder being drafted by the Vikings.

traderumor
12-09-2006, 10:42 PM
I think Smith is coming into the NFL at a perfect time, where a guy who can do more than drop back, sit in the pocket and read defenses can excel. I'll be more surprised if he is not a success than if he is, and before year 4.

GAC
12-09-2006, 10:54 PM
I think Quinn will have a far more successful pro career then Smith.

GAC
12-09-2006, 10:55 PM
I wouldn't wish that on Troy.

Some said the very same thing about the Bengals drafting Palmer. ;)

Yachtzee
12-09-2006, 11:06 PM
If they were smart, Cleveland would draft the best Offensive Lineman they can get their hands on.

BuckWoody
12-09-2006, 11:21 PM
Some said the very same thing about the Bengals drafting Palmer. ;)
...and they've all been proven wrong. ;)

Kirk Herbstreit was mentioning this very thing on Sportscenter. He's says that Cleveland should have learned by watching what happened to Texas this year by not drafting Vince Young. He says that they should make sure they get him.

It would definitely be a great PR move, Cleveland fans would love it. I, on the other hand, would not love that so much...

BuckWoody
12-09-2006, 11:23 PM
If they were smart, Cleveland would draft the best Offensive Lineman they can get their hands on.
Yeah, maybe that kid out of Wisconsin, Joe Thomas. He is a mountain.

LoganBuck
12-09-2006, 11:29 PM
Mel Kiper said today that Smith is looked at as anywhere from a 10th overall through 3rd round type of guy. So much will depend on his workouts because of his "lack of stature". Kiper said that the majority of GMs look at him as a mid to late first round draft choice.

Joseph
12-10-2006, 12:09 AM
Ryan Leaf had a better career than Smith will in the pros.

BoydsOfSummer
12-10-2006, 01:09 AM
It's been fun watching him as a Buckeye but no thanks.

GAC
12-10-2006, 03:49 AM
If they were smart, Cleveland would draft the best Offensive Lineman they can get their hands on.

Thoroughly agree Yachtzee. It will be nice to get Bentley back next year. That is almost like drafting an offensive lineman. ;)

But they need both offensive linemen AND defensive linebackers.

Jpup
12-10-2006, 05:55 AM
too short? I haven't watched the kid very much, but he appears to be awfully small to make it in the NFL. I'm not sure where he would be a good fit. I am trying to figure out how he is the best player in the country, but again I haven't watched him all that much. That kid from Arkansas was pretty good this year though.

Comparing Troy Smith to Vince Young is , well...I'm biased so I won't comment. :D

WVRed
12-10-2006, 08:12 AM
Troy Smith will probably be a day one QB, but he wont be selected in the first round.

Brady Quinn will probably go top 5, and JaMarcus Russell and Brian Brohm will be first rounders as well if they come out. Drew Stanton will likely go before Smith as well.

Then again, Vince Young wasnt projected to be anything before the national championship.

Caveat Emperor
12-10-2006, 11:56 AM
Then again, Vince Young wasnt projected to be anything before the national championship.

Vince was also 6'5" and, as you know: "You can't coach size."

Highlifeman21
12-10-2006, 12:24 PM
I think Quinn will have a far more successful pro career then Smith.

I agee.

I'm not even convinced Smith will be drafted and or given much serious consideration as a QB in the NFL.

Vince Young can be Vince Young b/c he's 6'5" and a freak of nature athlete. Mike Vick can be Mike Vick at whatever size he is b/c of his amazing speed.

Troy Smith isn't that tall, isn't that fast, and doesn't throw all that well. I think he's a great college QB, so I don't want this to seem as a dig on the Heisman winner, but he's now in that dubious class of Heisman QBs. Historically, they haven't fared well at all in the pros.

Only time will tell.

I think the fact Brady Quinn has played 2 seasons in a pro style offense will help his draft stock. I'd be surprised if anyone but him was the 1st QB off the board.

Heath
12-10-2006, 12:37 PM
As much of a person Troy Smith could be to the City of Cleveland (Tom Archdeacon withstanding), He doesn't need to be in Cleveland. He needs to be in a town with a decent offensive line and some other weapons. He could go to say, Chicago to play quarterback. I also think he could be a decent safety, but he'd have to adjust his own perception.

The Browns need lineman. Period. And reports out of Cleveland say that LeCharles Bentley may need another surgery and that will wipe him off for 2007.

guttle11
12-10-2006, 01:02 PM
If the Browns were real smart, they'd take Adrian Peterson if he comes out, and then take 6 offensive lineman.

OldRightHander
12-10-2006, 04:34 PM
on draft day robert goddell would walk to the podium and say with whatever pick in the nfl draft the cleveland browns select troy smith quaterback THE ohio state universt for many reasons

A.) heck of a quaterback and athlete
B.)From the cleveland area would bring alot of fans in and if you know his story this man is a role model for inner city kids
C.)Charlie Fry just aint gettin it done

Okay, George. :)

Yachtzee
12-10-2006, 04:53 PM
To be fair to Charlie, I don't think a lot of guys could get it done behind that OL. When the OL gives the QB time, both Frye and Anderson have looked good. I don't think the Browns have had a decent offensive line since Bernie Kosar was stepping up behind center. Of course, with his cement feet, he would have gotten killed if they didn't have a good line. :)

bucksfan
12-10-2006, 09:18 PM
Ryan Leaf had a better career than Smith will in the pros.

I'm not saying he'll be an immediate starter or even a star at any point, but I don't see how you can make that statement based on what we have seen so far. Smith throws the ball very well IMO. It will be interesting to see how his height and "intangibles" translate to the next level. I do think Quinn looks to be ther better |NFL QB as many do, but I don't think that relative comparison necessarily puts Troy in such a poor light. But come what may, he is a heckuva college QB and I'm proud he as a fellow Buckeye.

traderumor
12-10-2006, 09:53 PM
I do not understand where Quinn is viewed as more likely a success in the NFL, other than ESPN has said it enough that it must be true. I say he and Smith are at least equal in all facets of the game, with Smith being a better scrambler. Quinn does fall on his backside better, though, which is really an unfair measuring stick because Troy has managed to elude the same rush.

mole44
12-10-2006, 10:05 PM
Browns fan here, So i'll chime in. The Browns will never win a thing until they can protect their QB and get to the oppositions QB. That being said, they need to draft 5 olinemen, 3 Dlineman and call it a draft.

Yachtzee
12-10-2006, 10:12 PM
Ryan Leaf had a better career than Smith will in the pros.

I think Troy Smith has much better decision making skills than Ryan Leaf. The only knock on Smith is that he is too short to be a great NFL QB. For all his talent, Ryan Leaf was lazy and dumb as a post.

FoReel
12-10-2006, 10:38 PM
Vince was also 6'5" and, as you know: "You can't coach size."
"Warning!!! OSU fan might be biased"

You also can't coach athletic ability either and Troy Smith has that, he is listed at 6-1 but when you can scramble and make yourself have a lane to pass or eye your reciever, you can over come that. Look at Drew Brees, he is listed at 6 foot, and he has been one of the top QB's the past two years.

The argument about Troy having a great supporting cast in college, if the Browns take him he is going to have Braylon Edwards(if he is not a mini-TO) and Kellen Winslow to throw to.

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2006, 01:03 AM
I do not understand where Quinn is viewed as more likely a success in the NFL, other than ESPN has said it enough that it must be true. I say he and Smith are at least equal in all facets of the game, with Smith being a better scrambler. Quinn does fall on his backside better, though, which is really an unfair measuring stick because Troy has managed to elude the same rush.

Quinn is also in charge of running what is, essentially, the same offense that put the Patriots in all of those Super Bowls with Brady at the helm -- so there is less worry that he's a college-system quarterback. He's far more polished at making reads, adjustments, and breaking defenses down than Smith, who has only recently shook his "1 look and run" tendency from previous years. Smith also has the luxury of throwing to two of the best wide receievers in football and playing behind one of the best lines in college football.

I think anyone with an ounce of football sense will tell you that Quinn is far and away the more polished NFL prospect. That isn't to say Smith won't have success at the next level, it's just that Quinn is the much better bet right now.

I certainly know who I'm hoping my team drafts.

Yachtzee
12-11-2006, 01:06 AM
I certainly know who I'm hoping my team drafts.

Another MAC QB? ;)

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2006, 01:16 AM
Another MAC QB? ;)

You have no idea how much it pains me to throw Bruce under the bus (being a Toledo alum and all), but the kid just doesn't have the arm to compete at the NFL level.

It was fun to see him beat the Bengals, but I've got to think about the future of my franchise.

:confused:

LoganBuck
12-11-2006, 01:44 AM
Quinn is also in charge of running what is, essentially, the same offense that put the Patriots in all of those Super Bowls with Brady at the helm -- so there is less worry that he's a college-system quarterback. He's far more polished at making reads, adjustments, and breaking defenses down than Smith, who has only recently shook his "1 look and run" tendency from previous years. Smith also has the luxury of throwing to two of the best wide receievers in football and playing behind one of the best lines in college football.

I think anyone with an ounce of football sense will tell you that Quinn is far and away the more polished NFL prospect. That isn't to say Smith won't have success at the next level, it's just that Quinn is the much better bet right now.

I certainly know who I'm hoping my team drafts.

Ok, I don't agree with that first part about Quinn. Quinn is fine when he isn't being smacked around. When he gets hit he turns into a completely different QB. He has happy feet and will throw off his backfoot, putting more loft on the ball. I don't disagree that he has been running Weis's system, but lets quit the Charlie worship. Charlie Weis has not won a big game yet, and by extension neither has Brady Quinn. Don't tell me about the Super Bowls, that is insulting to all breathing human beings, because Bill Billichek is the best big game coach in the NFL. So far Brady Quinn is the top pick because ESPN has been saying so. Mel Kiper said saturday that GM's are very disappointed with Quinn this year, they were expecting to be wowed. He is no longer viewed as the consensus top pick. Players like Joe Thomas, Adrian Peterson, and Calvin Johnson have jumped him. Quinn does not look like a top of the draft light your hair on fire guy. Ask yourself does Brady Quinn belong in the same category as Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisburger, and Phillip Rivers or the category with Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, and David Carr. Think about their senior years in college, and then think about Quinn's. Would you rather have Matt Leinhart or Quinn? Leinhart fell all the way to #10.

traderumor
12-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Quinn is also in charge of running what is, essentially, the same offense that put the Patriots in all of those Super Bowls with Brady at the helm -- so there is less worry that he's a college-system quarterback. He's far more polished at making reads, adjustments, and breaking defenses down than Smith, who has only recently shook his "1 look and run" tendency from previous years. Smith also has the luxury of throwing to two of the best wide receievers in football and playing behind one of the best lines in college football.

I think anyone with an ounce of football sense will tell you that Quinn is far and away the more polished NFL prospect. That isn't to say Smith won't have success at the next level, it's just that Quinn is the much better bet right now.

I certainly know who I'm hoping my team drafts.

Now there's an argument. Smith is good because he has great receivers. So, I guess Carson Palmer ain't jack without Chad, TJ, and Chris Henry. I would say any QB is dependent on good receivers.

As for "just recently shaking the 1 look and run," look what happened when he did. I think its called growth, improvement, coaching, etc. That should make a QB candidate look pretty attractive to an NFL team currently starting someone like Charlie Fry, or Jon Kitna, or Brad Johnson, or any other place holder until a team can find a real QB.

Finally, I believe you made the point in the prior post about Heisman winners not translating well to the NFL. That used to be true, even 10 years ago, but I don't think that is a good rule of thumb to use anymore. For every Rick Crouch, there is a Reggie Bush and Carson Palmer. I do not think a Heisman is anymore the kiss of death for one's pro chances, and really has little to do with projecting future success in the pros. I see no pattern.

Doc. Scott
12-11-2006, 12:29 PM
So who are the odds-on favorites to be taken top-five this season?

I'd think Oakland as #1 would take a QB, but we know Detroit would take the biggest-name WR out there. Cleveland may get top-five if they job out their last three games like this past Thursday.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
12-11-2006, 12:55 PM
Ryan Leaf had a better career than Smith will in the pros.
Wow, if I posted what I really think about this comment it would probably be my last. Im starting to really enjoy this place, so....deep breath, you are entitled to your own opinion.

traderumor
12-11-2006, 12:59 PM
So who are the odds-on favorites to be taken top-five this season?

I'd think Oakland as #1 would take a QB, but we know Detroit would take the biggest-name WR out there. Cleveland may get top-five if they job out their last three games like this past Thursday.The Lions should take a QB. Watching the Thanksgiving Day game reminded me how barely average Kitna is.

LoganBuck
12-11-2006, 01:25 PM
Outside of Quinn, Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas, and Adrien Peterson I haven't heard of anything definate yet. It is too early. Give it another month and the juniors will be declaring.

Chip R
12-11-2006, 01:33 PM
The Lions should take a QB. Watching the Thanksgiving Day game reminded me how barely average Kitna is.


They should but Matt Millen loves wide receivers like Wayne Krivsky loves old guys who pitch in relief.

BuckeyeRedleg
12-11-2006, 04:56 PM
Troy Smith = Drew Brees

Brady Quinn = David Carr

Just my opinion.

And I know I'm biased, but I have to respectfully disagree with anyone that thinks Troy Smith doesn't throw a nice ball.

By the way, Quinn had some pretty decent talent around him too. I seem to remember Stovall and Samardija snatching their fair share of jump balls.

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2006, 02:54 AM
Ok, I don't agree with that first part about Quinn. Quinn is fine when he isn't being smacked around. When he gets hit he turns into a completely different QB. He has happy feet and will throw off his backfoot, putting more loft on the ball.

I see that sometimes from him, but I also see that sometimes he'll take a bit of a smacking (see: Michigan State) and pick himself off the turf and up the level of his play. Fact is, Quinn is a pocket-passer and the quickest way to rattle most pocket passers is quick pressure up the middle. The biggest difference I've seen in Notre Dame from this year to last year is the fact that their line is getting overwhelmed a lot more regularly then they did last year.


I don't disagree that he has been running Weis's system, but lets quit the Charlie worship. Charlie Weis has not won a big game yet, and by extension neither has Brady Quinn. Don't tell me about the Super Bowls, that is insulting to all breathing human beings, because Bill Billichek is the best big game coach in the NFL.

Now who is doing the coach worship? The issue isn't so much whether or not Weis has won a big game or how important Weis was to the Patriots championship runs -- the issue is that he took an NFL-style offense (complete with NFL style playcalling, NFL style checkdowns and QB responsibilities, etc.) and turned it over to Quinn. Quinn responded by posting two great statstical seasons and showing great command for the offense given him. That puts him, developmentally at least, at the top of the class in terms of "most ready for the next level" and gives you one less thing to worry about when drafting him.


So far Brady Quinn is the top pick because ESPN has been saying so. Mel Kiper said saturday that GM's are very disappointed with Quinn this year, they were expecting to be wowed. He is no longer viewed as the consensus top pick. Players like Joe Thomas, Adrian Peterson, and Calvin Johnson have jumped him. Quinn does not look like a top of the draft light your hair on fire guy.

Saying that you're now behind Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson on the depth chart for the draft board isn't exactly anything to be ashamed of. My only contention was that Quinn was far and away the best quarterback in the draft, and if I had to pick a quarterback, I'd pick the one with the size, strength, and intelligence most favorable to playing in the NFL. That is Brady Quinn, IMO.


Ask yourself does Brady Quinn belong in the same category as Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisburger, and Phillip Rivers or the category with Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, and David Carr. Think about their senior years in college, and then think about Quinn's. Would you rather have Matt Leinhart or Quinn? Leinhart fell all the way to #10.

That's an interesting category you've compiled there. Of the group, the closest pick to a "consensus" can't-miss pick was Peyton Manning (and even he faced limited debate of his credentials -- especially in the aforementioned "can't win the big game" department -- when he came out with Ryan Leaf). Palmer looked like a world-beater his senior year, but there were some concerns that he had shot to the top of the draft class with only one great season to his name. Roethlisberger had serious questions coming out of the draft as to whether he could adjust to playing better competition on a weekly basis and whether he could play effectively out of an offense that didn't put him in the gun every play, and questions continue to dog him about carelessness with the football. Rivers has looked great thus far, but it's hard to annoint him as anything after less than a full season of football.

Taking a QB is a gamble -- it's at best a 50/50 shot whether you get a true star or a pick that washes out and sets your franchise back another few years. Of this years group, I think all objective evidence points to Brady Quinn being the best shot a team has at drafting a franchise QB.

I know the homerism for osu runs deep here, but even the most die hard college of columbus fan has to admit that Troy Smith succeeding in the NFL is much less of a sure thing. He's been a fantastic college QB, but the next level is taxing for guys his size and with his level of experience playing as a true dropback passer.

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2006, 03:03 AM
Finally, I believe you made the point in the prior post about Heisman winners not translating well to the NFL. That used to be true, even 10 years ago, but I don't think that is a good rule of thumb to use anymore. For every Rick Crouch, there is a Reggie Bush and Carson Palmer. I do not think a Heisman is anymore the kiss of death for one's pro chances, and really has little to do with projecting future success in the pros. I see no pattern.

Even generously allowing Ricky Williams and his reefer madness to be counted as a player who had success in the pros, the ratio of good NFL Heisman winners to bad NFL Heisman winners is roughly 50/50 over the last 10 years

2006: Troy Smith (OSU)
2005: Reggie Bush (USC)
2004: Matt Leinart (USC)
2003: Jason White (OKLA)
2002: Carson Palmer (USC)
2001: Eric Crouch (NEB)
2000: Chris Weinke (FSU)
1999: Ron Dayne (WISC)
1998: Ricky Williams (TEX)
1997: Charles Woodson (MICH)
1996: Danny Wuerffal (FLA)

jmcclain19
12-12-2006, 03:25 AM
I don't know about the small part. Mike Vick - 6-0/210. Troy Smith - 6-1/215.

In my mind - Troy Smith = Major Harris Part Deux

Someone will give him a shot. He's the Heisman Trophy winner after all - even Eric Crouch got a couple of NFL chances before crashing out.

Here is a rundown of Heisman finalists QBs (Top Four) in since 1990.

Troy Smith
Vince Young
Brady Quinn
Matt Leinart
Alex Smith
Jason White
Eli Manning
Carson Palmer
Brad Banks
Eric Crouch
Ken Dorsey
Joey Harrington
Rex Grossman
Chris Weinke
Drew Brees
Josh Heupel
Mike Vick
Joe Hamilton
Michael Bishop
Cade McNown
Tim Couch
Peyton Manning
Ryan Leaf
Danny Wuerffel
Jake Plummer
Tommy Frazier
Steve McNair
Kerry Collins
Charlie Ward
Heath Shuler
Gino Torretta
Casey Weldon
Ty Detmer
Shawn Moore

So since 1990, you have 34 total QBs (several like Detmer, Jason White & Danny Wuerffel were repeats)

Of that batch you have nine of who've any sort of NFL success (Eli & Peyton Manning, Mike Vick, Kerry Collins, Steve McNair, Drew Brees, Rex Grossman, Jake Plummer, Carson Palmer) and that stretching it when it comes to Grossman & Eli Manning. Three others the jury is still out on (Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Vince Young)

So 11 of 34 - not exactly stunning odds. It should be noted, that of the 11, only Plummer (6-2), Vick (6-0), Grossman(6-1) & Brees (6-0) are considered "Short" by NFL QB standards.

Smith is just an excellent college QB who won't make it in the NFL. Nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: looks like CE was thinking something similiar - posting that while I was doing my research. I see how you are CE.

traderumor
12-12-2006, 11:00 AM
Even generously allowing Ricky Williams and his reefer madness to be counted as a player who had success in the pros, the ratio of good NFL Heisman winners to bad NFL Heisman winners is roughly 50/50 over the last 10 years

2006: Troy Smith (OSU)
2005: Reggie Bush (USC)
2004: Matt Leinart (USC)
2003: Jason White (OKLA)
2002: Carson Palmer (USC)
2001: Eric Crouch (NEB)
2000: Chris Weinke (FSU)
1999: Ron Dayne (WISC)
1998: Ricky Williams (TEX)
1997: Charles Woodson (MICH)
1996: Danny Wuerffal (FLA)

The next step would have to be comparing that to, say, the normal success rates of 1st-3rd round draft picks, I would think. I see only three total flame outs, White, Crouch and Wuerffal. I would imagine that is a higher percentage than first round draft picks. I think if you compared that to the 70s and 80s eras, you would see a much lower percentage of Heisman winners do much at all in the NFL. But, in sum, I think this information confirms what I am saying in my other post--that the Heisman is not the kiss of death for Smith's NFL career, which is essentially what you are getting at. I say the Heisman has nothing to do with it to base any kind of meaningful argument on predicting pro success. Yours and jmcclain's data only bear that out. Judge the guy on his merit, leave the Heisman flame argument out of it.

bucksfan
12-13-2006, 12:58 PM
Yeah, I'd definitely separate any discussion about Troy Smith in the NFL from either his Heisman win because quite obviously the Heisman has nothing to do with it.

I believe from watching him all year that he is far and away a better NFL QB talent than some other Hesiman busts that preople point to (Crouch, Ware, et al). That does not mean he will be a smashing success but it also does not predict abject failure. I see a QB who throws a very nice ball, has very good arm strength, and is a poised leader who seems to be able to read college defenses very well. I don't know for certain how those attributes will translate to the pros, but I don't know how after watching him, along with so many other QBs deemed NFL-ready that, one can come to such a firm conclusion that he will not succeed.

BoydsOfSummer
12-13-2006, 03:11 PM
I see him having a Rodney Peete type NFL career.

Matt700wlw
12-13-2006, 03:19 PM
"If the Cleveland Browns were smart..."

You can stop right there. That sums up what the Mistake by the Lake is going through.

:p:

Heath
12-13-2006, 07:08 PM
I see him having a Rodney Peete type NFL career.

Is he gonna land up with Holly Robinson????

:eek: :eek:

Danny Serafini
12-13-2006, 07:22 PM
Is he gonna land up with Holly Robinson????

:eek: :eek:

Or co-host the Best Sports Show Period. (extra word left out in deference to George Grande)