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View Full Version : 1st base: upgrade needed!



Always Red
12-09-2006, 11:00 PM
I like Scott Hatteburg; a good guy to have on your team, knows how to work a count and get on base, and in a pinch, can serve as your third (or 4th) catcher.

But really, at this point in his career, he's a role player; he'd be a great pinch-hitter from the left side of the plate. He shouldn't be playing 1B for a team that wants to contend.

I'd like to see the Reds upgrade the 1B position right now. I realize Votto is the heir apparent, but he's no sure thing, and slated probably for AAA this year.

As it is, we're hearing that WK is looking for a RH bat to replace Aurilia in the 1B platoon, but how about just bringing in hitter, someone with RH power, some one who can play everyday down there? We've lost offense, trading away two of our 4 top OF'ers last year, with no replacements. This team needs some offense, or what we saw in September will continue. Instead of winning games 9-8, we'll be losing them 4-3. :(

savafan
12-09-2006, 11:01 PM
Well, there's Carlos Pena, but he's a lefty...

OnBaseMachine
12-09-2006, 11:38 PM
I think Joey Votto should be given the opportunity to win the first base job in spring training with Hatteberg being the number one pinch hitter. Also, I would love to see Craig Wilson brought in to get some atbats at first base and outfield.

Spitball
12-09-2006, 11:49 PM
Olmedo Saenz of the Dodgers kills lefties with some power, and he can play third.

George Foster
12-10-2006, 12:07 AM
I think Joey Votto should be given the opportunity to win the first base job in spring training with Hatteberg being the number one pinch hitter. Also, I would love to see Craig Wilson brought in to get some atbats at first base and outfield.

I agree that we should get help for Hatty "in house" with Votto. We need to spend our unused limited resourses on a starting pitcher and another bat.

Our bullpen is good enough, no more money spent on this please!

Penny is out there being shopped by the Dodgers. He started the All-Star game last year and throws GAS....we can get him for 17 million for the next 2 years. This is a bargin basement price. If we have to trade Dunn for Penny this will give us some extra bucks to spend, but we will be forced to replace Dunn's offensive numbers.

Jpup
12-10-2006, 02:37 AM
but we will be forced to replace Dunn's offensive numbers.

which can't be done for what Dunn is making. If you trade Adam Dunn, you are through. close up shop and begin a full rebuild.

GAC
12-10-2006, 04:25 AM
You find the RH'd bat to platoon with Hatteberg at 1B and 1B is the least of our problems for right now because the Reds do have future options there.

If they can acquire an OFer then Dunn can go to 1st. Or maybe you use one of the youngster in the OF as a stopgap while keeping your fingers crossed with Jay Bruce after 08.

We have Votto, and he should be given a serious look-see before you start shopping for another.

Always Red
12-10-2006, 07:09 AM
We have Votto, and he should be given a serious look-see before you start shopping for another.

I'd like to see the Reds give Votto a shot at the job this year. I know WK doesn't like to "skip levels" but Votto will be 23 this year, and it's not the same situation as Bailey really who might be too young at 20. Although if you can play ball, you can play ball and age doesn't matter.

When I think about how this offense went from one of the very best in the game to just average in a year, it leads me to consider how to improve it. We had 4 OF who could pound the ball last April; now we have 2. And we've lost offense at SS (granted, a much needed huge defensive improvement).

Yes, I understand pitching is a priority; I think the pitching is much improved, much deeper as compared to over a year ago. Yes, the Reds could use another SP, and if they're planning on contending, a closer.

This team, as it was in April of '06, could afford to play Hatte, an OBP machine, at 1B. This new team needs more production from the 1B position, due to the loss of offense in other positions.

I say if Joey Votto is the going to be the answer, then let's give him a chance to do it now. That is a far less risky gamble than putting Josh Hamilton on the 25 man roster, IMHO.

mth123
12-10-2006, 07:30 AM
I'd like to see the Reds give Votto a shot at the job this year. I know WK doesn't like to "skip levels" but Votto will be 23 this year, and it's not the same situation as Bailey really who might be too young at 20. Although if you can play ball, you can play ball and age doesn't matter.

When I think about how this offense went from one of the very best in the game to just average in a year, it leads me to consider how to improve it. We had 4 OF who could pound the ball last April; now we have 2. And we've lost offense at SS (granted, a much needed huge defensive improvement).

Yes, I understand pitching is a priority; I think the pitching is much improved, much deeper as compared to over a year ago. Yes, the Reds could use another SP, and if they're planning on contending, a closer.

This team, as it was in April of '06, could afford to play Hatte, an OBP machine, at 1B. This new team needs more production from the 1B position, due to the loss of offense in other positions.

I say if Joey Votto is the going to be the answer, then let's give him a chance to do it now. That is a far less risky gamble than putting Josh Hamilton on the 25 man roster, IMHO.

I was pushing for Votto and still would like to see it happen. But even if it does, he's a LH hitter as well and will probably still need to be platooned for a year or two so a RH bat to platoon whether with Votto or Hatte still makes some sense. I think they need two. One to platoon at 1B and the other to spot for Griffey or Dunn. Griffey needs rest and Dunn should rest more. May as well rest them against LH Pitching.

Craig Wilson looks good right now. Maybe Eduardo Perez. Not sure I want Preston Wilson but I could see it happening.

GAC
12-10-2006, 09:40 AM
Maybe Eduardo Perez. Not sure I want Preston Wilson but I could see it happening.

I wonder what it would take to get Perez from the M's? I know one thing though - looking at his stats, he'd never see the light of day vs righties. He's terrible (.505 OPS .212 SLG% ).

mth123
12-10-2006, 10:29 AM
I wonder what it would take to get Perez from the M's? I know one thing though - looking at his stats, he'd never see the light of day vs righties. He's terrible (.505 OPS .212 SLG% ).

Free Agent. I imagine he could be had for less than $2 Million. I'd offer 2 years at $3 Million. Probably won't get any other 2 year offers and he could play for the next couple years against LH whether its Hat or Votto at 1B.

Of course this is only if there is no hope of Hat going to the bench a full time guy like Craig Wilson being acquired.

Always Red
12-10-2006, 10:38 AM
How about Shelton from the Tigers? His numbers are actually about the same vs RH or LH pitching, but he's got some pop (in streaks), and plays a decent first base. I don't have any idea what it'd take to get him from Detroit, but with Casey there now, he's strictly bench material. Reminds me of the kind of hitter who would do well at GABP, though.

mth123
12-10-2006, 11:24 AM
How about Shelton from the Tigers? His numbers are actually about the same vs RH or LH pitching, but he's got some pop (in streaks), and plays a decent first base. I don't have any idea what it'd take to get him from Detroit, but with Casey there now, he's strictly bench material. Reminds me of the kind of hitter who would do well at GABP, though.

I think Shelton could be had and the Tigers want a LH for the pen (and the Reds have plenty of those). I just don't know why they soured on him so fast. He must really be messed-up after his great start. He didn't get a lot of time to rebound from his slump IMO. I'd take a flyer on him if we could dump a Cormier for him or maybe a Pelland or some other lefty suspect. They don't value him a lot so I wouldn't give much. Heck I'd do it just to dump Cormier.

Anyone who follows the Tigers more closely know what's up with Shelton?

Always Red
12-10-2006, 11:33 AM
I think Shelton could be had and the Tigers want a LH for the pen (and the Reds have plenty of those). I just don't know why they soured on him so fast. He must really be messed-up after his great start, he didn't get a lot of time to rebound from his slump IMO. I'd take a flyer on him if we could dump a Cormier for him or maybe a Pelland or some other lefty suspect. They don't value him a lot so I wouldn't give much. Heck I'd do it just to dump Cormier.

Anyone who follows the Tigers more closely know what's up with Shelton?

No, but I do know he had the one really bad streak where he was not hitting, and also was making errors at really crucial times, which lead the Tigers to pick up Casey at the deadline.

Actually, he's a pretty good 1B glove: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/2006_gold_glove_winners_as_i_see_it/

They actually sent him down to Toledo at that point. He's a converted catcher, so could be the emergency 3rd catcher, as well, and free up that roster spot. He's streaky with that bat (remember the great April he had last year), but does strike out a lot, which means WK may not consider him.

I like the Cormier idea. or Stanton, but I don't think the Tigers would like to participate in that mistake.

mth123
12-10-2006, 12:30 PM
I like the Cormier idea. or Stanton, but I don't think the Tigers would like to participate in that mistake.

I don't know. The Tigers don't seem to have a problem with old guys if he fits the role (Jones, Rogers, Sheff, Mags, I-Rod). Stanton and Cormier both are ok as guys to pitch the 7th. The problem for the Reds is that they already have Bray for that, so Stanton and Cormier seem like a luxury on a team that needs to use its resources elsewhere.

For Detroit, either would fill the need and a trade of Cormier for Shelton seems like win-win. Even if Shelton tanks, moving Cormier's $ is a win for the Reds.

RedsManRick
12-10-2006, 12:36 PM
How about Shelton from the Tigers? His numbers are actually about the same vs RH or LH pitching, but he's got some pop (in streaks), and plays a decent first base. I don't have any idea what it'd take to get him from Detroit, but with Casey there now, he's strictly bench material. Reminds me of the kind of hitter who would do well at GABP, though.

I think the point is to hold down 1B as best as possible until Votto is ready. Anything more than a 2 year deal for a righty platoon guy sort of defeats the point.

toledodan
12-10-2006, 08:11 PM
i really hope votto has such a great spring it forces wayne into bringing him up. i like hatteburg but votto's upside is unreal. i wouldn't mind having hatteburg as a pinch hitting specialist and votto playing everday at first. its not like were going to win next year anyways?

Spitball
12-10-2006, 08:52 PM
... but votto's upside is unreal.

Is this really true? After the 2005 season, Bill James was not real high on Votto. I've never seen the guy play, but I'm afraid this board might be going a bit overboard for an unknown talent.

toledodan
12-10-2006, 10:21 PM
Is this really true? After the 2005 season, Bill James was not real high on Votto. I've never seen the guy play, but I'm afraid this board might be going a bit overboard for an unknown talent.

votto did hit a wall in 2005 no doubt. however after a solid 2006(leading the triple crown for most) his stock went way back up. now he's considered one of the top 1b prospects in the minors. i could see at worse case he may need a full season at AAA to make sure he can adjust to a higher level of pitching. however if joey rakes in spring training i would bring him up because i think we are still 2 years away from being SERIOUS contenders and he could use the experience.

mth123
12-10-2006, 10:32 PM
votto did hit a wall in 2005 no doubt. however after a solid 2006(leading the triple crown for most) his stock went way back up. now he's considered one of the top 1b prospects in the minors. i could see at worse case he may need a full season at AAA to make sure he can adjust to a higher level of pitching. however if joey rakes in spring training i would bring him up because i think we are still 2 years away from being SERIOUS contenders and he could use the experience.

2005 was a result of the DanO get behind in the count before swinging business. Votto was a good hitter before that and all that messing around did was screw him up. Once the ill advised policy was gone, the real Votto re-emerged.

toledodan
12-10-2006, 10:36 PM
2005 was a result of the DanO get behind in the count before swinging business. Votto was a good hitter before that and all that messing around did was screw him up. Once the ill advised policy was gone, the real Votto re-emerged.



good points as i had forgot all about that. didn't they have something set up for the pitchers as well that alot of people didn't like?

Redsland
12-10-2006, 11:10 PM
good points as i had forgot all about that. didn't they have something set up for the pitchers as well that alot of people didn't like?
Tandem rotations with strict pitch counts below AA.

M2
12-11-2006, 12:30 AM
i could see at worse case he may need a full season at AAA to make sure he can adjust to a higher level of pitching.

Oh there's plenty of worse cases than that. I'm not saying they will happen, but most kids find a few hurdles between AA success and being productive major leaguers.

chicoruiz
12-11-2006, 07:40 AM
It's one thing if a AA hitter has a monster spring and makes the club; it's quite another for that to be your plan A going into camp. That way lies madness...

oneupper
12-11-2006, 04:42 PM
Here's some news. EdE's been playing 1B in the Dominican Republic.

M2
12-11-2006, 04:54 PM
Here's some news. EdE's been playing 1B in the Dominican Republic.

Robbie Alomar used to play 1B in Puerto Rico every winter too. I wouldn't read anything into it.

jimbo
12-11-2006, 05:56 PM
I don't know. The Tigers don't seem to have a problem with old guys if he fits the role (Jones, Rogers, Sheff, Mags, I-Rod). Stanton and Cormier both are ok as guys to pitch the 7th. The problem for the Reds is that they already have Bray for that, so Stanton and Cormier seem like a luxury on a team that needs to use its resources elsewhere.


I wonder how much the Reds are considering giving Bray an opportunity to be the closer? There was a lot of speculation when that trade was made that he was a possible future closer. He was sporadic with the Reds last season, but depending on how his spring training goes, I can see him getting a chance at it at least. IMO, anything is a better option than the closer by committe crap.

jimbo
12-11-2006, 05:57 PM
Here's some news. EdE's been playing 1B in the Dominican Republic.

Didn't he also play some 1B last year in Louisville during his rehab assignment?

Jpup
12-12-2006, 03:19 AM
Scott Hatteberg--On Base Machine. :cool:

Mario-Rijo
12-12-2006, 07:04 PM
I got an idea, that just might work. Maybe not the best option but one that no one has thought of and won't cost anything but some imagination and a little patience. This should be a viable option come spring training.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jesse%20Gutierrez&pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=444100 (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jesse%20Gutierrez&pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=444100)

Yes Jesse Gutierrez, time to find out if he can do it at this level. He's freaking 28 yrs old and about as good as he will get in AAA and below. He has some nice #'s both in AAA and he is currently rounding into shape in the Mexican league. Both stats are in the above link. Check out his BB's to K's ratio (not great but pretty good) his OBP, Slg % and then check out his Vs. LH Stats.