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Mario-Rijo
12-10-2006, 01:34 PM
This could make great sense for us. I would certainly deal Cormier + back to Philly for Jon Leiber. I think he could be a solid #3 for us this season and then we may be able to get a sandwich pick out of him next off-season. I think it's a very sensible option, plus we can keep him away from other NL central pitching hungry teams. Then if we feel we still need another LHP we could conceivably re-sign Schoeneweis. Although I would feel fine with Stanton, Bray and Shackelford from the Left side.



Hello, Steel City?
Dec 8 - The Phillies want to move Jon Lieber for bullpen help, and the Pirates are considering a deal for the veteran pitcher, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports.
The Brewers and Rangers also are interested in the 36-year-old righty, who is due $7.5 million in 2007 and can become a free agent after next season.

Lieber is coming off a rare down season in Philadelphia (9-11, 4.93 ERA) after winning 17 games in 2005.

mth123
12-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Since we're stuck with Weathers for 2 years, I'd offer Majewski and/or Cormier.

icehole3
12-10-2006, 02:09 PM
I just cant see them letting go of a starter for an old reliever.

Highlifeman21
12-10-2006, 02:11 PM
I don't know why the Phils would trade Lieber.

Off the top of my head, he has to be their #3 guy coming into 2007 behind Myers and Garcia.

mth123
12-10-2006, 02:12 PM
I just cant see them letting go of a starter for an old reliever.

Salary dump.

marcshoe
12-10-2006, 02:15 PM
I wanted the Reds to go for Lieber at the trade deadline, but if the Phillies are looking for bullpen help, I'm not sure what the Reds can offer. I don't want to let go of Coffey or even Bray, and everyone else is too old.

Did the Phil's ever pick up a catcher? If not, maybe they could be persuaded with a package including Valentin and mabye Belisle . (Okay, I know that's not likely, but earlier I was thinking of offering Ross for Lieber, but now LaRue's in KC....)

Sorry. I think he'd be a good pickup, but I can't come up with a likely offer (unless it is a true salary dump situation).

mth123
12-10-2006, 02:17 PM
I don't know why the Phils would trade Lieber.

Off the top of my head, he has to be their #3 guy coming into 2007 behind Myers and Garcia.

Just signed Eaton and Moyer and Hamels is the top prospect. They want to dump the $.

guttle11
12-10-2006, 02:23 PM
What about sending them Coffey? Would that make sense?

RedsManRick
12-10-2006, 02:23 PM
Why in the world would we give up talent for a back of the rotation starter who's older and more expensive, but not really any better, than our in house options? Unless you're making a playoff push, paying somebody 7-8MM to hold down the back of your rotatation is pretty big waste of money. The only thing you get with Lieber over say, Belisle or EZ is a bit more certainty -- not really any better performance. 35 starts of 5.00 ERA pitching isn't going to improve this team in the short or long term.

marcshoe
12-10-2006, 02:35 PM
I wouldn't send young talent with long-term potential (such as Coffey), but I would send a servicable part the Phils could plug in and use. Lieber would be the number three starter on the Reds, I believe. Other than last year, his ERA's been in the high 3's or low 4's. He's a ground ball pitcher who should fare well with the new infield defense. And knowing what you were getting would be a big plus for this rotation.

He's not an ace, but he could fill a major hole on this team.

mth123
12-10-2006, 02:47 PM
Why in the world would we give up talent for a back of the rotation starter who's older and more expensive, but not really any better, than our in house options? Unless you're making a playoff push, paying somebody 7-8MM to hold down the back of your rotatation is pretty big waste of money. The only thing you get with Lieber over say, Belisle or EZ is a bit more certainty -- not really any better performance. 35 starts of 5.00 ERA pitching isn't going to improve this team in the short or long term.

2006 was his worst year. Prior to that he's number 3 quality. I'd say he's a better bet than Lohse for 2007 and the $ are about the same. But your right about his age and the giving up talent part. That's why I suggested Cormier and Majewski.

In 2006 he had a severe groin injury which interupted his season in May when he was just starting to get it together (he'd had 3 really good starts prior to that). He was out until July and got rocked a couple times before finding his groove. He was good in August and September. I think his 2006 stats are deceiving due to the injury and would expect better in 2007.

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 02:49 PM
2006 was his worst year. Prior to that he's number 3 quality. I'd say he's a better bet than Lohse for 2007 and the $ are about the same..

Without a doubt. On both points.

Plus it would mean the Reds wouldn't have to face him anymore. Which would be a blessing.

Oh, and another thing: hearing Lieber speak on Philly radio and TV quite a bit, I get the sense that he's a very bright guy; he certainly pitches intelligently. Compare that to Lohse's very low baseball IQ.

I'd give them Bray and Cueto in a heartbeat.

OnBaseMachine
12-10-2006, 03:03 PM
Without a doubt. On both points.

Plus it would mean the Reds wouldn't have to face him anymore. Which would be a blessing.

Oh, and another thing: hearing Lieber speak on Philly radio and TV quite a bit, I get the sense that he's a very bright guy; he certainly pitches intelligently. Compare that to Lohse's very low baseball IQ.

I'd give them Bray and Cueto in a heartbeat.

Good Lord, Bray and Cueto for a pitcher who hasn't posted an ERA below 4.30 since 2002? That would be an awful deal. Listen, I like Jon Lieber and would like to see the Reds acquire him, but not for a stud like Johnny Cueto.

RedsManRick
12-10-2006, 03:05 PM
But the question isn't Lieber vs. Lohse. It's trading away talent for Lieber vs. Lohse. I too would rather have Lieber. But depending on who we'd have to give up, I'd rather have Lohse and those guys.

If could've done a LaRue/Lieber swap, sure. If we can trade Cormier and Harris, sure. But giving away any youth of value for a guy who's more expensive, older, and not significantly better than what we've got, then what's the point?

BTW, shouldn't we be wary of a 37 year old pitcher who suffered a sever groin injury the previous year?

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 03:06 PM
Good Lord, Bray and Cueto for a pitcher who hasn't posted an ERA below 4.30 since 2002? That would be an awful deal. Listen, I like Jon Lieber and would like to see the Reds acquire him, but not for a stud like Johnny Cueto.

It's going to take at least two arms to get Lieber. If we can get him for less, great. But Gillick's not the same idiot as Wade.

I don't think for a second that the Phils want anything to do with the Reds' geriatric bullpenners. I think they might be interested in a youngun like Bray however.

I'd start with Bray and Shearn, but I'd move up to Cueto if need be. I'm not married to A ballers.

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 03:08 PM
But the question isn't Lieber vs. Lohse. It's trading away talent for Lieber vs. Lohse. I too would rather have Lieber. But depending on who we'd have to give up, I'd rather have Lohse and those guys.

If could've done a LaRue/Lieber swap, sure. If we can trade Cormier and Harris, sure. But giving away any youth of value for a guy who's more expensive, older, and not significantly better than what we've got, then what's the point?

BTW, shouldn't we be wary of a 37 year old pitcher who suffered a sever groin injury the previous year?

If all it takes from the MLB roster is Bray? And it meant jettisoning Lohse?

Where do I sign?

OnBaseMachine
12-10-2006, 03:10 PM
It's going to take at least two arms to get Lieber. If we can get him for less, great. But Gillick's not the same idiot as Wade.

I don't think for a second that the Phils want anything to do with the Reds' geriatric bullpenners. I think they might be interested in a youngun like Bray however.

I'd start with Bray and Shearn, but I'd move up to Cueto if need be. I'm not married to A ballers.

Dealing Bray and Cueto for Lieber would rank up there with the Lopez/Kearns and Lohse deal. Now, I would consider Bray/Cueto for Jennings but not an almost 37-yr old coming off a bad season.

RedsManRick
12-10-2006, 03:12 PM
If all it takes from the MLB roster is Bray? And it meant jettisoning Lohse?

Where do I sign?

Bray is the highest ceiling arm we have in our bullpen. You think that's worth the .5 ERA upgrade from Lohse to Lieber for a year? Wow... Didn't you just talk in the other thread about using roster spots on high ceiling youth rather than high paid mediocrity? And now you want to move some cheap high ceiling youth for mediocrity --- and want nothing to do with another high ceiling (if certifiably insane) arm as well?

Will M
12-10-2006, 03:13 PM
whats wrong with Lieber & Lohse?

if the Phils want to salary dump Lieber then i am all for it. I've said before i think Lohse will have a big year due to his being a free agent at the end of 2007. if Lieber was hurt last year and only has 1 year left on his contract then all we have to lose is money ( assuming that we send the Phils some low level 'prospects' ). since free agency this year is nuts then spending the money on 1 year of Lieber seems reasonable.

Arroyo, Harang, Lohse, Lieber & Milton/Bailey seems servicable for 2007.

mth123
12-10-2006, 03:14 PM
It's going to take at least two arms to get Lieber. If we can get him for less, great. But Gillick's not the same idiot as Wade.

I don't think for a second that the Phils want anything to do with the Reds' geriatric bullpenners. I think they might be interested in a youngun like Bray however.

I'd start with Bray and Shearn, but I'd move up to Cueto if need be. I'm not married to A ballers.

I don't know for sure. This might be part of the "sign Adam Eaton and Dump Lieber to pay for it" plan. I think moving his salary is the primary motivation. You're probably right about the Geezers, but he might take Majewski and filler (Olmedo, Harris, etc) just to fill a hole and move the $.

Mario-Rijo
12-10-2006, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by OnBaseMachine
Good Lord, Bray and Cueto for a pitcher who hasn't posted an ERA below 4.30 since 2002? That would be an awful deal. Listen, I like Jon Lieber and would like to see the Reds acquire him, but not for a stud like Johnny Cueto.


I agree I wouldn't deal either of them for Leiber mostly because I believe they would take less based on these tidbits from Philly's MLB.com site.


They'll fill their bullpen needs eventually by way of dealing righty Jon Lieber. The veteran appears to be the odd-man out in the six-man rotation and will likely be dealt to address it.


As for Lieber, Arbuckle said the team has already been contacted by several suitors. The Rangers, Pirates and Brewers are teams that might have interest. Texas is believed to be dangling some combination of Scott Feldman, Ron Mahay and Joaquin Benoit.

"We're at a point now where teams are saying, 'If you're going to make a move, we have interest in a starter,'" Arbuckle said. "This market is going to continue to play out in favor of anybody who has an extra arm. In the next few days, once these last few free agents settle in, I think there will be a fair number of clubs who need starting pitching. I think supply and demand will work in our favor."

What are the chances of opening Spring Training with six starters?

"I think the odds are small," Arbuckle said. "I think we report to Clearwater hopefully with a better bullpen."

What are the chances you'll have six starters by Christmas?

"Probably not great," Arbuckle said. "If we were to send out Christmas presents, we probably would only need to send five to starting pitchers. I don't know about this week, but probably sometime over the next 10 days to two weeks [a move will be made]."



I would Offer some combination of Cormier, Shack, Dumatrait and perhaps Belisle. As Belisle becomes less necc. if you get Leiber and perhaps makes more sense to Philly in case they need a cheap starting option at some point.

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 03:23 PM
Bray is the highest ceiling arm we have in our bullpen. You think that's worth the .5 ERA upgrade from Lohse to Lieber for a year? Wow... Didn't you just talk in the other thread about using roster spots on high ceiling youth rather than high paid mediocrity? And now you want to move some cheap high ceiling youth for mediocrity --- and want nothing to do with another high ceiling (if certifiably insane) arm as well?

As I said. Improving the rotation is paramount to me; everything else takes a backseat. I happen to think the upgrade from Lohse will be MUCH greater than a half a run. I expect Lieber to be a full run better than Lohse next year. At minimum.

I don't think Bray has a high ceiling at all; he doesn't throw nearly as hard as advertised and he's easy to hit hard. Coffey's ceiling is much higher, IMO. Lohse and Bray are object lessons in fungible talent.

And for all those screaming at me about who or what I'd offer for Lieber--I'm only presenting how far I'd go with what I'd surrender; of course, in negotiations, I'd start much lower (Shearn, Maj), but then work up to better if need be.

RedsManRick
12-10-2006, 03:38 PM
As I said. Improving the rotation is paramount to me; everything else takes a backseat. I happen to think the upgrade from Lohse will be MUCH greater than a half a run. I expect Lieber to be a full run better than Lohse next year. At minimum.

I don't think Bray has a high ceiling at all; he doesn't throw nearly as hard as advertised and he's easy to hit hard. Coffey's ceiling is much higher, IMO. Lohse and Bray are object lessons in fungible talent.

And for all those screaming at me about who or what I'd offer for Lieber--I'm only presenting how far I'd go with what I'd surrender; of course, in negotiations, I'd start much lower (Shearn, Maj), but then work up to better if need be.

So ~20 runs fewer allowed over the course of a single season is worth giving up the next 4-5 years of an effective, sub-market value, lefty reliever who some people think is closer material?

Based on the current roster, we're about a swing of 120 runs (combination of runs scored and fewer allowed) from an expected W-L that puts us in playoff position. Who fills that bullpen spot that Bray is filling? As I've said elsewhere, insufficient short-term incremental improvements at the expense of the future is a good way to end up as the Pirates or Royals.

Highlifeman21
12-10-2006, 03:51 PM
Good Lord, Bray and Cueto for a pitcher who hasn't posted an ERA below 4.30 since 2002? That would be an awful deal. Listen, I like Jon Lieber and would like to see the Reds acquire him, but not for a stud like Johnny Cueto.


Definitely send Cueto for Lieber. Would most definitely take more than Cueto, so send Cormier back to the Phils as well. If this still isn't enough, add Bergolla to the mix, or another prospect of that caliber.

Cueto isn't anything special, and if the Phils like him, they can have him.

I'd almost suggest Wood for Lieber straight up, but I think Wood is best used in a deal to go get Jason Jennings.

OnBaseMachine
12-10-2006, 04:40 PM
Definitely send Cueto for Lieber. Would most definitely take more than Cueto, so send Cormier back to the Phils as well. If this still isn't enough, add Bergolla to the mix, or another prospect of that caliber.

Cueto isn't anything special, and if the Phils like him, they can have him.

I'd almost suggest Wood for Lieber straight up, but I think Wood is best used in a deal to go get Jason Jennings.

What are you basing your opinion on Cueto off of? I would love to know. Please inform us of your super scout skills. It can't be his stuff considering he throws a 95 mph fastball, plus two other above average pitches, and it most certainly isn't his stats - 138 IP, 100 hits, 3.00 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 38 bb/143 k's. Johnny Cueto is a fantastic pitching prospect, like it or not.

redsupport
12-10-2006, 05:20 PM
Lieber is good and he destroys the reds

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 06:19 PM
So ~20 runs fewer allowed over the course of a single season is worth giving up the next 4-5 years of an effective, sub-market value, lefty reliever who some people think is closer material?

Based on the current roster, we're about a swing of 120 runs (combination of runs scored and fewer allowed) from an expected W-L that puts us in playoff position. Who fills that bullpen spot that Bray is filling? As I've said elsewhere, insufficient short-term incremental improvements at the expense of the future is a good way to end up as the Pirates or Royals.

Bill Bray has never in his career been able to keep the ball in the park. Turn over a rock, and you'll find a Bill Bray in every team's farm system--they're legion. My guess is that a guy like Shearn could match Bray's numbers, and considering the multitude of lefties already in the bullpen, it might not be such a bad idea to replace Bray with Shearn.

Patrick Bateman
12-10-2006, 06:29 PM
Bill Bray has never in his career been able to keep the ball in the park. Turn over a rock, and you'll find a Bill Bray in every team's farm system--they're legion. My guess is that a guy like Shearn could match Bray's numbers, and considering the multitude of lefties already in the bullpen, it might not be such a bad idea to replace Bray with Shearn.

Shearn is almost 30. He is a career minor leaguer. Replacing Bray with Shearn since he is a righty makes no sense.

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 06:30 PM
Shearn is almost 30. He is a career minor leaguer. Replacing Bray with Shearn since he is a righty makes no sense.

Okay, Salmon.

RedsManRick
12-10-2006, 07:12 PM
Bill Bray has never in his career been able to keep the ball in the park. Turn over a rock, and you'll find a Bill Bray in every team's farm system--they're legion. My guess is that a guy like Shearn could match Bray's numbers, and considering the multitude of lefties already in the bullpen, it might not be such a bad idea to replace Bray with Shearn.

Bray just finished his 2nd season in professional baseball. He allowed 5 HR is 50.2 Major League innings -- .89 HR/9. Is that great? Nope, but it's hardly "never been able to keep the ball in the park". He struck out 11.5/9 in the minors.

I'd love to see Salmon get a chance too. You're right, Bill Bray is not unique. he is not Mariano Rivera. But guess what? There's some gray between singular talent and disposable. I guess 24 year old, better than league average relievers who you control for the next 4 years grow on trees. If they're really that common, then why the heck don't we have a bullpen full of 'em?

Newman4
12-10-2006, 07:15 PM
Jon Lieber p
3 years/$21M (2005-07)

$1M signing bonus
05:$5.25M, 06:$7.25M, 07:$7.5M
signed as a free agent 12/04
2 years/$3.5M (2003-04), plus $8M 2005 club option (declined 11/04)
$0.5M signing bonus ($0.25M at signing, $0.25M 1/04)
03:$0.3M, 04:$2.45M, 05:$8M club option ($0.25M buyout)
incentives: $0.775M in 2003, $4.75M in 2004
signed as a free agent 1/03
3 years/$15M (2000-02), plus $6.25M 2003 club option (declined 10/02)
$1M signing bonus
00:$3.5M, 01:$4.75M, 02:$5.5M, 03:$6.25M ($0.25M buyout)
agent: Rex Gary
ML service: 11.077

If the Phillies want a team to pay all 7.5 million of his contract, then they should only expect a combo of B/C Grade propsects like Mario-Rijo mentioned. No Cueto or Bray. Lieber probably would fit nicely in the rotation and would produce something like 12-10, 4.25 ERA. The guy has always started a lot of games and when right keeps the ball on the ground.

Will M
12-10-2006, 07:17 PM
Jon Lieber p
3 years/$21M (2005-07)

$1M signing bonus
05:$5.25M, 06:$7.25M, 07:$7.5M
signed as a free agent 12/04
2 years/$3.5M (2003-04), plus $8M 2005 club option (declined 11/04)
$0.5M signing bonus ($0.25M at signing, $0.25M 1/04)
03:$0.3M, 04:$2.45M, 05:$8M club option ($0.25M buyout)
incentives: $0.775M in 2003, $4.75M in 2004
signed as a free agent 1/03
3 years/$15M (2000-02), plus $6.25M 2003 club option (declined 10/02)
$1M signing bonus
00:$3.5M, 01:$4.75M, 02:$5.5M, 03:$6.25M ($0.25M buyout)
agent: Rex Gary
ML service: 11.077

If the Phillies want a team to pay all 7.5 million of his contract, then they should only expect a combo of B/C Grade propsects like Mario-Rijo mentioned. No Cueto or Bray. Lieber probably would fit nicely in the rotation and would produce something like 12-10, 4.25 ERA. The guy has always started a lot of games and when right keeps the ball on the ground.

I will be thrilled if the Reds could get a starter who could go 12-10 with a 4.25 ERA for the #3 slot in the rotation.

Newman4
12-10-2006, 07:26 PM
I will be thrilled if the Reds could get a starter who could go 12-10 with a 4.25 ERA for the #3 slot in the rotation.

For 7.5 million?

Will M
12-10-2006, 07:39 PM
For 7.5 million?


yes

7.5 million dollars doesn't get you Gil Meche or Gary Matthews Jr so if it will get a pitcher who can give us 200 innings with a 4.25 ERA that is a deal.

Chip R
12-10-2006, 07:44 PM
One good reason for getting Lieber is that it would keep him away from the Cards for at least a year cause you have to believe if they know he's available, they will go after him. He'd fit in there like a hand in a glove.

IslandRed
12-10-2006, 07:47 PM
Agreed. If a guy can serve up 180-200 innings of league-average pitching or thereabouts for $7.5 million, he's beating the market. The Phillies may be trying to dump some payroll, but that doesn't mean they're dumping something with no value. We shouldn't expect to obtain Leiber for the proverbial bag of baseballs.

Newman4
12-10-2006, 07:52 PM
That's 7.5 AND giving up players. Not the same as signing a FA for 7.5 mil. I don't mind giving up the 7.5 million (although I'd rather have Westbrook) but will the Reds? I also think if you're giving up guys like Bray and Cueto, Jennings better be coming back.

Will M
12-10-2006, 07:56 PM
That's 7.5 AND giving up players. Not the same as signing a FA for 7.5 mil. I don't mind giving up the 7.5 million (although I'd rather have Westbrook) but will the Reds? I also think if you're giving up guys like Bray and Cueto, Jennings better be coming back.

Depends on the players. I certainly wouldn't be giving up 'A' prospects for Lieber. But, most 'prospects' never pan out so giving up a couple of low levels prospects for Lieber is low risk.

Falls City Beer
12-10-2006, 08:30 PM
Bray just finished his 2nd season in professional baseball. He allowed 5 HR is 50.2 Major League innings -- .89 HR/9. Is that great? Nope, but it's hardly "never been able to keep the ball in the park". He struck out 11.5/9 in the minors.

I'd love to see Salmon get a chance too. You're right, Bill Bray is not unique. he is not Mariano Rivera. But guess what? There's some gray between singular talent and disposable. I guess 24 year old, better than league average relievers who you control for the next 4 years grow on trees. If they're really that common, then why the heck don't we have a bullpen full of 'em?

His minor league numbers and his major league numbers scream "poor man's Gabe White." I'm referring to his minor league numbers when I say he has a tough time keeping it in the park. His minor league HR/9 is very pedestrian. Plus he's not particularly stingy with the BB. He's useful, but surrenderable in a deal that brings you a starter at value-cost.

I'll be the first to admit that there aren't a ton of numbers available on Bray, so I wonder why people jump to the conclusion that he could be a closer? His stuff tops out at 91; he gets by much more on deception than movement. I look at the guy and think, "Eh." We've got plenty of that in the bullpen.

corkedbat
12-10-2006, 08:44 PM
I'll take Lieber at $7.5 as the fourth man in my rotation and try to find someone even better for #3 - especially if it means that WK can dump Milton somewhere for something..

If I'm gonna include a Cueto or Wood in a deal though it's gonna have to be for a bigger fish than Lieber.

Right now, Weathers and Stanton are probably set in the pen (hopefully as setup guys with a closer candidate to come in another deal), That means we could probably afford to deal at least one from among Bray, Cormier, Shackleford and Burton on the left side and one from among Coffee, Majewski and Belisle on the right. I'd prefer it be Cormier and Majewski or Belisle and would be willing to toss in a decent middling prospect like Salmon Shafer, Pelland or Dumatrait (or othersimilar) if need be.

A deal like that would be a very nice justification for the stock-piling of BP arms that some have been complaining about around here. Don't know if its enough for the Phillies to jump on it either though..

Mario-Rijo
12-10-2006, 10:06 PM
Feel free to check out the 3 BP arms that the Rangers are rumored to have been possibly parting with. Of course I'm guessing it's not all 3 but perhaps any 2 of them. And we cannot make the assumption that any 2 of those would get it done, however we do have guys who can compare/better those 3 alledgedly up for grabs. Like I said Cormier and Belisle would get it done for sure IMO. Would ya do it?


Benoit RHP, Feldman RHP, Mahay LHP.

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=tex

Jpup
12-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Feel free to check out the 3 BP arms that the Rangers are rumored to have been possibly parting with. Of course I'm guessing it's not all 3 but perhaps any 2 of them. And we cannot make the assumption that any 2 of those would get it done, however we do have guys who can compare/better those 3 alledgedly up for grabs. Like I said Cormier and Belisle would get it done for sure IMO. Would ya do it?


Benoit RHP, Feldman RHP, Mahay LHP.

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=tex

I think Belisle has a lot of upside, but his back problems get in the way. Would I trade Cormier and Belisle for Lieber, of course.

VI_RedsFan
12-10-2006, 10:46 PM
Like I said Cormier and Belisle would get it done for sure IMO. Would ya do it?

I doubt Philly wants Rheal back. Maybe we could do a Belisle and Dumatrait deal for Lieber. Would that get it done?

jmac
12-10-2006, 10:55 PM
i havent got to read this thread in it's entirety but let me add this.
wayne k said he was either gonna have to get more offense or improve the pitching/defense.
so far....."if" jr goes to rf and with the new ss, our defense is improved some.
However, i dont think it will make a whole lot of difference unless we can get a good #3.
leiber...yes i would like to get him.
yes ....there are a few i would rank above him on my list but if i could get a leiber for a lesser package or a better #3 for dunn, then i would take leiber and keep dunn !
i dont think our #3-#5 will be good enough regardless that we can sacrifice dunn.
harang...BA....and say leiber or ??? would still not be on caliber of a oswalt/clemens/petitte or zito/hudson/mulder and by that i mean sacrificing 40/100 from our offense.

alexad
12-11-2006, 08:11 AM
Leiber's arm is about to fall off. IF we want a pitcher like that, why not resign Paul Wilson for a lot less money and prospects who would need to be traded for him. The Reds are not desperate to find a starting pitcher yet. Do not trade the farm and some of you best bargining chips for an over the hill pitcher. He had his days as a Cub, but when he hurt arm, it was pretty much over.

Leiber is a prime example of overpaying for a pitcher and then having his contract when you realize you do not want his contract and nobody else is that stupid to take it on. This case will be even worse with the signing of all the starting pitching this offseason in the free agent market.

Jason Schmidit will not dominate for the Dodgers, The Cubs most of won the Mega Millions Jackpot, got totally stoned and wasted and decided to spend it on starting pitching that will be lucky to stay healthy. I still can not see why the Cubs signed Lilly for all that money to be a number 5 guy and then go out and sign Jason Marquis for a ton of money to be their 5 guy. What the Cubs did was drive the price for Carlos Zambrano up to the heavens. IF Lilly is worth10 mil a year, I would want 25 a year if I was Carlos and that is after Pettit signed for 16 mil a season with the Yankees.

I think the Reds are doing the right thing. When is is all said and done, they may have the best staff in the National League. Milton looks like a steal with all the signings going on. I am surprised he did not say thanks Cincinnati, but I can make a heck of a lot more money out there. Maybe Milton thinks he stills owe the Reds something? Anyway I got way off the subject.

No to Leiber. 5 years ago, I would have jumped on him when the Cubs got him. Not today. He is not worth all the money he is making right now.

Jpup
12-12-2006, 05:18 AM
When is is all said and done, they may have the best staff in the National League

how do you figure that?

Here are a bunch that will be better:

Mets
Phillies
Brewers
DBacks
Dodgers
Padres


The Reds have 2 good pitchers on the entire team. The have some that are average but not even close to the best. You could probably add 2-4 more teams in front of them. 2 pitchers don't make a good pitching staff.

PuffyPig
12-12-2006, 01:34 PM
Dealing Bray and Cueto for Lieber would rank up there with the Lopez/Kearns and Lohse deal. Now, I would consider Bray/Cueto for Jennings but not an almost 37-yr old coming off a bad season.


But you forget that prospect pitchers have no chance of pitching well for the Reds, therefore can be easily discarded. Throw in Bailey if you have to.:evil:

jmac
12-12-2006, 04:12 PM
dont know if this has been discussed on another thread or not but last night i heard via the radio that stl is trying to work out a deal with yankees : carl pavano to stl for relief help (didnt hear any names going other way)

RedLegSuperStar
01-08-2007, 01:44 PM
from MLB4u.com:


Jon Lieber, RHSP--Philadelphia Phillies

Phils are shopping him while looking for a set-up man. They still believe they can deal before the end of spring training. They have had talks with the Padres, Brewers, Rangers and Pirates. The Phils had discussed a Kevin Mench for Lieber swap with the Brewers, but then they worked on a Kevin Mench, Damian Miller and Derrick Turnbow swap for Lieber. But talks with the Brewers ended after they added Jeff Suppan. Talks with the Rangers cooled after they added Brandon McCarthy. Talks with the Padres cooled because of their unwillingness to deal Scott Linebrink. Talks with the Pirates cooled because they were unwilling to deal Salomon Torres or Mike Gonzalez for Lieber....This rumor was last updated on 12:23 PM - Jan 7, 07. The source of this rumor was Boston Globe

I'd make an offer of Coffey, Belisle, Denorfia and Ross

This gets us our #3 pitcher to follow Harang and Arroyo and doesn't depleat the offense. It gives Philly a couple relievers, or a reliever and a starter how ever they want to use Belisle. They have offered Hollandsworth a minor league deal.. so Denorfia would maybe be a cheaper and in most cases a better option. As for Ross.. with the departure of Lieberthal.. The Phillies don't really have any comptition for Rod Barajas. Though that may not be a deal like Milwalkee through out there.. I think it may suit needs that would benifit both teams.

RANDY IN INDY
01-08-2007, 01:46 PM
That's way too much to pay for John Lieber.

You live pretty close to me, RedLegSuperStar.

lollipopcurve
01-08-2007, 02:08 PM
I'd make an offer of Coffey, Belisle, Denorfia and Ross

I don't think I'd trade a single one of those guys for Lieber.

RedLegSuperStar
01-08-2007, 02:16 PM
I just tried to put together something comparable to the Brew-Crews proposal

RedLegSuperStar
01-08-2007, 02:18 PM
That's way too much to pay for John Lieber.

You live pretty close to me, RedLegSuperStar.

Yes sir! I remember the thread "Marlins moving to Charlotte" I think you started that.. If not I know me and you were all for it.

pedro
01-08-2007, 02:22 PM
I just tried to put together something comparable to the Brew-Crews proposal

If the Brewers are offering that much I don't think the Reds should try and beat it.

RANDY IN INDY
01-08-2007, 02:25 PM
Yes sir! I remember the thread "Marlins moving to Charlotte" I think you started that.. If not I know me and you were all for it.

Don't remember if I started it, but I was all for it!

Played a nice little golf course down your way not too long ago. Lancaster Golf Club. Real inexpensive and nice. Enjoyed my day.

redsupport
01-08-2007, 03:04 PM
grab in a nano second he is solid and always kills the reds. I hope someone is paying attention

camisadelgolf
01-08-2007, 03:47 PM
Wow, I'm surprised the Phillies would have Hank Leiber. You'd think he would've retired by now.

In a related note, has anyone heard that Job Lieber is on the trading block, as well?

redsupport
01-08-2007, 03:50 PM
they also are interested in trading Ray Culp

RANDY IN INDY
01-08-2007, 03:57 PM
Reds don't have a chance at Culp. The Cubs will be all over him.

IslandRed
01-08-2007, 05:46 PM
I just tried to put together something comparable to the Brew-Crews proposal

Milwaukee was offering a 36-year-old catcher, a reliever who cratered in the first year of a three-year deal, and an outfielder who's average at best. More importantly, those three guys are making decent money; combined, it would probably be a fairly salary-neutral trade. You're offering up pre-arb guys, so if we're going to lose the money end of the trade, better make sure we don't lose the talent end of it too.