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ddrone
12-12-2006, 05:06 PM
Rotoworld is reporting Jennings was traded to Houston for taveras,Hirsh,and Buchholz.Another SP scratched off the list. :bang:

maniem
12-12-2006, 05:10 PM
Wow, I doubt the Reds could have matched that offer. I really like Hirsh, I wish the Reds could have found a way to get him. I think Colorado got the better end of this deal, but it will remain to be seen...

Tom Servo
12-12-2006, 05:11 PM
They can have him. I think Jennings is an alright groundball pitcher but nothing more than that, and I'd rather not sell the farm for one season of his services. I'm more disapointed in the fact that the Rockies got a CF as they seemed like a good candidate to send Freel to for a decent return.

dunner13
12-12-2006, 05:13 PM
Heavy price for jennings. This might help the astros in the short term but you have to wonder how much trading hirsch hurts them for the long term.

Joseph
12-12-2006, 05:16 PM
That's a lot to give up. I guess this makes Burke their CFer now?

Dracodave
12-12-2006, 05:22 PM
Unless Jennings signs a extension, the Astro's got fleeced. I don't care about how good everyone Houston gave up is or will be or has been or could be. Thats just too much to give up for one year of Jennings.

Kc61
12-12-2006, 05:23 PM
It's not a lot to give up and they certainly were not fleeced. The Astros, a good organization, understand that the backbone of the team is a solid major league rotation. Having lost Petitte and with holes they added Woody Williams, a decent short-term pickup, and now Jennings, who they will undoubtedly re-sign and will be part of a good rotation for several years.

They will not miss these pitching prospects, who may or may not pan out, because when they again need major league pitching they will go out and get it. Nor will they miss guys like Taveres, who they will replace.

They acquire players using different avenues. Carlos Lee as a free agent. Jennings in a trade. That's the way you try to win. Get better players, replace those you lose. They don't say -- let's sit out 2007 and maybe 2008 will be different because the economics may change or our youngsters may be ready.

Superdude
12-12-2006, 05:30 PM
It would have been nice to add Jennings, but you guys were acting like the Rockies were trying to give him away. That deal would be similar to us giving up something like Freel, Cueto, and Lohse. Not sure if he's worth it.

jmac
12-12-2006, 05:45 PM
jenings is just another possible target gone by the wayside though i wouldnt gave the farm for him.
who's next on the wish list ??
westbrook?...maybe blanton?....penny?

fewfirstchoice
12-12-2006, 05:53 PM
I my self think that the Stros paid a little to much as well.But one thing is for sure.The teams in the central keep getting better and better and the Reds just stand pat and fall further and further in the depths of defeat.

Spitball
12-12-2006, 05:54 PM
They can have him. I think Jennings is an alright groundball pitcher but nothing more than that...

I totally agree with your post, but it is a misconception that Jennings is an elite ground ball pitcher.


...Jennings, who they will undoubtedly re-sign...

I understand Jennings is intent on testing the market, and that is why the Rockies were so intent on moving him. The Astros may sign him for Suppan type money, but I'd much rather have Suppan...but that isn't saying I like Suppan.

Spitball
12-12-2006, 05:58 PM
I my self think that the Stros paid a little to much as well.But one thing is for sure.The teams in the central keep getting better and better and the Reds just stand pat and fall further and further in the depths of defeat.

Sometimes, the best trades are the ones you don't make. The Reds were wise not to become desperate enough to over-pay for a Jennings.

Dracodave
12-12-2006, 06:01 PM
Sometimes, the best trades are the ones you don't make. The Reds were wise not to become desperate enough to over-pay for a Jennings.

If Hirsch frankly is #3 material (as of now and most sites are calling him that), Bailey is roughly #4 material (as of now and we all seem to think he'd be better than running out what we already have)..Then I don't see how the Astro's win this trade either way.

Jennings maybe win now, but how do you comprise five years of Hirsch control (and his ablity to get better) by winning now? That is the steep price tag here.

Highlifeman21
12-12-2006, 06:04 PM
Jason Jennings was an Andy Pettitte replacement.

Combine that with the fact Roger Clemens most likely won't pitch for Houston this year and the Astros had to do something.

Spring~Fields
12-12-2006, 06:09 PM
I log on to see if the Reds did anything this evening and I see the competition is still doing more. Oh well.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 06:09 PM
All they had to give up was Hirsh?

Good lord, O'Dowd is a choad.

Patrick Bateman
12-12-2006, 06:10 PM
All they had to give up was Hirsh?

Good lord, O'Dowd is a choad.

And perennial Cy Young contender Taylor Buchholz.

Spitball
12-12-2006, 06:19 PM
Have number three/four starters become this year's fool's gold? Teams are willing to overpay for Suppan, Marquis, Lilly, Weaver, and Jennings like they were last year for middle relievers like Farnsworth, Tavares, Eyre, and Howry.

Puffy
12-12-2006, 06:19 PM
All they had to give up was Hirsh?

Good lord, O'Dowd is a choad.

Man, I was beginning to think I was the only one who liked this trade for the Astros.

Jennings has been pitching well in Coors for a couple three years now. And I have no doubt he'll resign with them. I like it for the Astros.

Mario-Rijo
12-12-2006, 06:23 PM
I think the 'Stros got fleeced for one good reason. Jennings is a guy who depends on defense to be a solid pitcher. He won't get alot of that in Houston. Look at this old, un-athletic defense, it makes the '06 Reds look like the Big red Machine IMO.


C - Ausmus (1 of only 2 or 3 reasonably solid defenders they have)
1B- Berkman (Berk is Casey with slightly better wheels)
2B- Biggio (although a solid gloveman, he has lost alot of range)
SS- Everett (Pretty good defensively if they let him play)
3B- Ensberg (Read Everett Comment)
LF- Carlos Lee (Perhaps the least talented defensive player I have ever seen He is a poor man's Dunn defensively)
CF- Burke (Sorry not a CFer, he might be passable in a pinch but overall doesn't have the range for a full time CF job)
RF- Scott (Don't recall seeing his defense much, anyone care to advise? At any rate he has got to be better than Lane over there.)

So really all you gotta do is hit it hard to the right side of 2B or in the gaps and walaa instant double.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 06:25 PM
Man, I was beginning to think I was the only one who liked this trade for the Astros.

Jennings has been pitching well in Coors for a couple three years now. And I have no doubt he'll resign with them. I like it for the Astros.

I know he's "young" but Hirsh got his head absolutely kicked in last season. And it ain't going to get easier at Coors. Taveras is total crap. Buchholz might have made an interesting reliever at sea level, but now I doubt it.

How many times does Houston get to beat up on the Rockies' FO before they say "uncle?"

RFS62
12-12-2006, 06:43 PM
All they had to give up was Hirsh?

Good lord, O'Dowd is a choad.



This from Marc's blog....


"Also, Ken Rosenthal reports the Astros have acquired Jason Jennings and Miguel Asencio from Colorado for Willy Taveras, Jason Hirsh AND Taylor Buchholz. Tells you a little bit about Houston's desperation, since Hirsh was considered untouchable last summer when they were pursuing a Tejada/Soriano-type bat."

Krusty
12-12-2006, 06:47 PM
The more I see these free agent signings and desperation trades, I even like Wayne Krivsky more as he sits back and waits for the market to settle down before making moves.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 06:47 PM
This from Marc's blog....


"Also, Ken Rosenthal reports the Astros have acquired Jason Jennings and Miguel Asencio from Colorado for Willy Taveras, Jason Hirsh AND Taylor Buchholz. Tells you a little bit about Houston's desperation, since Hirsh was considered untouchable last summer when they were pursuing a Tejada/Soriano-type bat."

Then Houston is stupid too. Hirsh untouchable?

I think he was very touchable, like 11 dingers in 44 innings touchable. Yeah, some people come back from starts like that, but not many. That is just a grade-A ass-whoopin'.

Spitball
12-12-2006, 06:48 PM
Jennings has been pitching well in Coors for a couple three years now. And I have no doubt he'll resign with them. I like it for the Astros.

He has not pitched well at Minute Maid.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 06:48 PM
The more I see these free agent signings and desperation trades, I even like Wayne Krivsky more as he sits back and waits for the market to settle down before making moves.

:rolleyes:

Krusty
12-12-2006, 06:53 PM
:rolleyes:


Would you want Wayne K. deal Dunn, who is probably the most marketable player the Reds have? Do you want to overpay for the likes of Adam Eaton, Vincente Padilla, Eric Gagne and others?

Sometimes the best moves are the ones that aren't made. Let the market settle down and sift through and look for bargains like Mark Lorretta, Tony Armas and others. Plus those who will be non-tendered will create another pool of free agents that the Reds might go after at reasonable prices.

It isn't how much money you spend but how you spend it.

Dracodave
12-12-2006, 06:56 PM
It isn't how much money you spend but how you spend it.


Thats just it though, Reds have made zero officially good signings this offseason. I might not agree with the fact that the Astro's overpaid for Jennings, but they got Jennings none the less.

The only decent signing was Weathers...and thats not even all that great.

(I needed to correct something I said)

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 06:58 PM
Sometimes the best moves are the ones that aren't made. Let the market settle down and sift through and look for bargains like Mark Lorretta, Tony Armas and others. Plus those who will be non-tendered will create another pool of free agents that the Reds might go after at reasonable prices.


I'm not ready to go back to the Bowden Academy of Baseball GMing

wheels
12-12-2006, 06:59 PM
Didn't Houston just recently sign Garland?

They've got a nice mid grade rotation to follow Oswalt now.

If they can score a decent amount of runs, that dog will hunt.

I hate saying it, but it's true.

Dracodave
12-12-2006, 07:03 PM
Didn't Houston just recently sign Garland?

They've got a nice mid grade rotation to follow Oswalt now.

If they can score a decent amount of runs, that dog will hunt.

I hate saying it, but it's true.


Nope they passed up on the Garland deal for this deal.

jojo
12-12-2006, 07:19 PM
Unless Jennings signs a extension, the Astro's got fleeced. I don't care about how good everyone Houston gave up is or will be or has been or could be. Thats just too much to give up for one year of Jennings.

Even if Jennings signs an extension, the Astro's got fleeced, in fact, given what it might take to keep him from testing the free agent market next year, the Astros probably will get fleeced even before considering wht they gave up for the right to get fleeced...

Dracodave
12-12-2006, 07:20 PM
Even if Jennings signs an extension, the Astro's got fleeced, in fact, given what it might take to keep him from testing the free agent market next year, the Astros probably will get fleeced even before considering wht they gave up for the right to get fleeced...

According to the Astro's Jennings loves the idea of pitching and trying his sinker in a Stro jersey. He may give them the LTC they want.

Further more, I am begining to see this is actually a good thing for the Astros. It replaces Pettite, it gives then a known pitcher, and it removes two maybes and a could-still-well-we'll-keep-praying from the team.

I find it hard to actually sit here and think the Reds might get better if we dont start trading for both now and tomorrow pretty soon.

Puffy
12-12-2006, 07:32 PM
The Astros traded a might be, a never gonna be anything too special (Tavaras) and a "potential" middle reliever for a proven starter. I don't see how they got "fleeced" - maybe they end up losing this trade, I don't know. But I can't see how people can say fleeced on this trade.

Dracodave
12-12-2006, 07:34 PM
The Astros traded a might be, a never gonna be anything too special (Tavaras) and a "potential" middle reliever for a proven starter. I don't see how they got "fleeced" - maybe they end up losing this trade, I don't know. But i can't see how people can say fleeced on this trade.


Thats what I am begining to think myself.

Everything the Astro's gave away...just filled the Rockies with maybes and potentional.

The basically cashed Jennings in for a low return. Then again hirsch could turn into Haren next year..I doubt it..but yeah it could happen.

Spring~Fields
12-12-2006, 08:07 PM
Would you want Wayne K. deal Dunn, who is probably the most marketable player the Reds have? Do you want to overpay for the likes of Adam Eaton, Vincente Padilla, Eric Gagne and others?



I would have rather had Castellini stick to his words, win now, by having Krivsky show some dynamic ability, backbone, trade for Jennings and Garcia, signing them to long term contracts along with Harang and Arroyo.

It tells me that I don’t see win now when they don’t go after pitching that can put them on top.

It tells me that I don’t see them having anything to trade that the market wants when they can’t trade for good pitching.

It tells me that I don’t see them ever going to spend any money on impact free agents in the future if they don’t feel that they can afford long term contracts on good pitching.

I would also like them to take a real shot at signing Zito also.

I think that it is just a matter of time before he and Narron trade Dunn anyway.

IslandRed
12-12-2006, 08:09 PM
Thats what I am begining to think myself.

Everything the Astro's gave away...just filled the Rockies with maybes and potentional.

The basically cashed Jennings in for a low return. Then again hirsch could turn into Haren next year..I doubt it..but yeah it could happen.

When I read about the deal the first thing I thought of was the Mulder-Haren trade.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 08:10 PM
When I read about the deal the first thing I thought of was the Mulder-Haren trade.

I think Haren is a better bet than Hirsh. And Barton is better than all of them. They really aren't that similar. This is a much less lopsided deal than the Cards/A's deal.

Always Red
12-12-2006, 08:13 PM
I log on to see if the Reds did anything this evening and I see the competition is still doing more. Oh well.

I know what you mean, SF. I look at this trade and ask myself "what's the rush?" Don't the Astro's know that it's only December, and they have the entire offseason to do deals? :laugh:

IslandRed
12-12-2006, 08:36 PM
I think Haren is a better bet than Hirsh. And Barton is better than all of them. They really aren't that similar. This is a much less lopsided deal than the Cards/A's deal.

It's not so lopsided, it's just that it could be reminiscent of that deal in terms of watching the young, cheap guy pitch just as well as the older, expensive, "proven" guy.

Mostly, it just puzzles me. Trading away Hirsh and Buchholz, their best bets for cheap pitching in the foreseeable future, for one year of Jennings -- whatever they get after that will be at free-agent prices, and they could have done that without giving anyone up -- screams "win now or else." That's nice, but then why didn't they go to the wall to re-sign Pettitte? They're not close to done yet, not if they're actually going to make a run at it.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the Reds had Jennings. But I also think the Astros hurt themselves significantly beyond 2007, because they've boxed themselves into having to pay free-agent prices for their entire rotation. And they're not rich enough to do that.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 08:44 PM
It's not so lopsided, it's just that it could be reminiscent of that deal in terms of watching the young, cheap guy pitch just as well as the older, expensive, "proven" guy.

Mostly, it just puzzles me. Trading away Hirsh and Buchholz, their best bets for cheap pitching in the foreseeable future, for one year of Jennings -- whatever they get after that will be at free-agent prices, and they could have done that without giving anyone up -- screams "win now or else." That's nice, but then why didn't they go to the wall to re-sign Pettitte? They're not close to done yet, not if they're actually going to make a run at it.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the Reds had Jennings. But I also think the Astros hurt themselves significantly beyond 2007, because they've boxed themselves into having to pay free-agent prices for their entire rotation. And they're not rich enough to do that.


Or maybe they'll do what they've always done: reload. They've found ways, year after year, not to box themselves in by paying the piper for pitching and letting expensive offensive guys walk away when they don't sign for at or below market value. Sort of the mirror image of what the Cards have done for the last 6 years--except the Cards let the pitchers walk away as opposed to the hitters.

The point being, people have been writing the Astros' epitaph for the better part of 8 seasons now, and it just hasn't happened. And the culture hasn't changed so much there that I expect the collapse to occur anytime soon.

IslandRed
12-12-2006, 08:50 PM
Or maybe they'll do what they've always done: reload. They've found ways, year after year, not to box themselves in by paying the piper for pitching and letting expensive offensive guys walk away when they don't sign for at or below market value.

Except they're now having to pay the piper for offense, too (Carlos Lee). Reloading works, but reloading using nothing but money is hard to do unless you have more of it than anyone else.

I'm just looking at their roster and I'm not that impressed. Maybe they'll get away with it, again. This is the National League, after all.

Falls City Beer
12-12-2006, 09:05 PM
Except they're now having to pay the piper for offense, too (Carlos Lee). Reloading works, but reloading using nothing but money is hard to do unless you have more of it than anyone else.

I'm just looking at their roster and I'm not that impressed. Maybe they'll get away with it, again. This is the National League, after all.

I'm fairly convinced that the Astros will flip Lee after a couple of seasons, as I believe in two years, his contract will look reasonable, and generally the Astros have been skilled at finding the bigger fool to take on the back end of a contract.

johngalt
12-12-2006, 11:49 PM
It would have been nice to add Jennings, but you guys were acting like the Rockies were trying to give him away. That deal would be similar to us giving up something like Freel, Cueto, and Lohse. Not sure if he's worth it.

Actually, this would be more like us giving up Freel, Bailey and Cueto if Cueto was major league ready right now.

Jpup
12-13-2006, 07:08 AM
Or maybe they'll do what they've always done: reload. They've found ways, year after year, not to box themselves in by paying the piper for pitching and letting expensive offensive guys walk away when they don't sign for at or below market value. Sort of the mirror image of what the Cards have done for the last 6 years--except the Cards let the pitchers walk away as opposed to the hitters.

The point being, people have been writing the Astros' epitaph for the better part of 8 seasons now, and it just hasn't happened. And the culture hasn't changed so much there that I expect the collapse to occur anytime soon.

it starts in 2007 if Clemens doesn't come back. You are mistaken IMO if you think that Houston got the better end of this deal. Just wait and see how bad it's going to get when they have to give him 12 million per to stay with them. Hirsch is a better pitcher than Jason Jennings. The guy just isn't that good and certainly not worth what he will get on his next contract. Houston is looking worse and worse everyday. Anyone who give Carlos Lee that much money can't be too smart.

The Astros winning ways are about to come to an end.

Spitball
12-13-2006, 08:03 AM
...and generally the Astros have been skilled at finding the bigger fool to take on the back end of a contract.

Can you please elaborate on this statement?

Falls City Beer
12-13-2006, 09:17 AM
Can you please elaborate on this statement?
The only guy that the Astros have gotten "stuck" with the last ten years or so is Bagwell. They've either let guys walk away or traded guys (Hidalgo/Beltran/Hampton/Kile) before they dipped too much.

Falls City Beer
12-13-2006, 09:18 AM
The Astros winning ways are about to come to an end.


It's possible, but people have been saying this for 8 years. And it hasn't happened.

jojo
12-13-2006, 12:26 PM
Actually, this would be more like us giving up Freel, Bailey and Cueto if Cueto was major league ready right now.

Right....for those that think it was such a smart trade on the Astros part-how again is it so obvious? :eek:

The Astros allowed themselves to be taken to the cleaners for pretty much the same reason the Ms did in Orlando.... they need innings and didn't mind paying alot for them....they just didn't want to pay money. Quick fixes for the now like these aren't the type of moves that smart franchises make continually.... Reds fans should be encouraged.

BRM
12-14-2006, 01:13 PM
I would've liked this trade better for the Rockies if they hadn't picked up Taveras - his BA and OBP are just not-terrible-enough that he'll look marginally useful for the Rockies and with his defensive reputation, which seems to have been earned solely by virtue of him being fast and a bad hitter, will make him look like a solution to the Rockies and eventually, some other stupid team. Coors is no longer the Best Hitters Park Ever, but it's still a decent hitters park and increases hits of all types, not just homers. I could start writing the entry for the Taveras free agent signing now and open it up come December 2010, I think.

Hirsh, of course, is the prize of this trade. He's a good pitching prospect, though not on the Hughes/Bailey level and Buchholz has potential, if some injury concerns, but I'm not sure I'd do this if I were the Rockies. You have a starting pitcher who can survive in Coors and you're going to cash him in and start over? Kind of risky.

I think this works for the Astros. The Lee signing is no longer needlessly blocking their young outfielders, the only thing the farm system has to offer. Taveras was simply in the way - getting another real bat into the outfield is very important when you're going from Clemens/Pettitte to Jennings/Williams. The Astros would be smart to get Jennings signed to a long-term contract as soon as possible. After all, he'll cost some dough now and when was the last pitcher to have his stock fall after leaving Coors? The Astros will not be able to replace Jennings easily.

2007 ZiPS projections for the players involved can be found at the link.

LINK (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/astros_acquired_jennings/)