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TheWalls
12-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Are other GMs gun shy to work with Wayne after he cherry picked David Ross, Brandon Phillips, and Cody Ross (nice numbers with Fish after braincramp move by Reds)?

Yeah, I know, "The Trade", blah, blah, blah... The other GMs know Bowden's a tool, have already chalked it up as a lesson learned by a young GM and moved on. I don't think it materially diminishes other GMs opinion of his talent evaluation or savyy moves.

Thoughts?

RedsManRick
12-13-2006, 03:49 PM
I think that in the balance, they see the Arroyo, Ross, and Phillips move as good low-risk high-reward moves which paid off, but largely lucky, whereas they see "the trade" as a very stupid move by a GM who didn't properly judge the talent and health of the players he received.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my sense of it.

Falls City Beer
12-13-2006, 03:49 PM
Are other GMs gun shy to work with Wayne after he cherry picked David Ross, Brandon Phillips, and Cody Ross (nice numbers with Fish after braincramp move by Reds)?

Yeah, I know, "The Trade", blah, blah, blah... The other GMs know Bowden's a tool, have already chalked it up as a lesson learned by a young GM and moved on. I don't think it materially diminishes other GMs opinion of his talent evaluation or savyy moves.

Thoughts?

Hey, a brand new excuse for Wayne's inactivity. Yippee.

To your question: no way in hell.

KoryMac5
12-13-2006, 03:59 PM
Are other GMs gun shy to work with Wayne after he cherry picked David Ross, Brandon Phillips, and Cody Ross (nice numbers with Fish after braincramp move by Reds)?

Yeah, I know, "The Trade", blah, blah, blah... The other GMs know Bowden's a tool, have already chalked it up as a lesson learned by a young GM and moved on. I don't think it materially diminishes other GMs opinion of his talent evaluation or savyy moves.

Thoughts?

I don't look at this post as an excuse at all. Not everyone on here is a Wayne apologist. We all want answers to the same questions why haven't the Reds made any moves.

westofyou
12-13-2006, 04:00 PM
Hey, a brand new excuse for Wayne's inactivity. Yippee.

To your question: no way in hell.

There were 4 MLB trades at the meetings and 6 ML trades, the Reds were in on 1 of the ten, looks like they are active when compared to the mean.

edabbs44
12-13-2006, 04:22 PM
There were 4 MLB trades at the meetings and 6 ML trades, the Reds were in on 1 of the ten, looks like they are active when compared to the mean.

Yeah but when you have multiple gaping holes, you might be expected to be a little more active than other teams who are better.

westofyou
12-13-2006, 04:29 PM
Yeah but when you have multiple gaping holes, you might be expected to be a little more active than other teams who are better.

Yes, the Reds are the only team in baseball that have needs, so they should have traded more... I see your point.

Takes two to tango.

Dracodave
12-13-2006, 04:34 PM
Yeah but when you have multiple gaping holes, you might be expected to be a little more active than other teams who are better.



Ask the Rockies about multiple holes and filling them without maybe's during the season. Jennings wasnt a maybe for them but Hirsh, Willy and Taylor will be. ;)

As far Krivsky, I think people are waiting till he gets desperate which will happen again. He'll do another stupid trade for middle relief and ration off the last of our offense

TRF
12-13-2006, 04:42 PM
I'm just hoping Krivsky is a "learn from my mistakes" kind of GM.

Then I see him sign Mike Stanton 10 years too late.

Then I see him say he is satisfied with Milton and Lohse.

Then I see him dismantle an offense in favor of defense without realizing you need both. And yes, the offense is starting to look baaaad.

So I keep hoping.

BRM
12-13-2006, 04:44 PM
Then I see him say he is satisfied with Milton and Lohse.


I'm hoping this was just lip service on Wayne's part.

UKFlounder
12-13-2006, 04:48 PM
Yeah but when you have multiple gaping holes, you might be expected to be a little more active than other teams who are better.

Yet when he is active, the moves get panned.

Darned if he does, darned if he doesn't.

Either way, several fans on this board find a way to remain miserable.

BRM
12-13-2006, 04:54 PM
Yet when he is active, the moves get panned.

Darned if he does, darned if he doesn't.

Either way, several fans on this board find a way to remain miserable.

That's likely because the moves are considered bad ones by those fans. They don't rip him for being active. They rip him for signing and/or acquiring players with questionable skills.

Handofdeath
12-13-2006, 04:58 PM
That's likely because the moves are considered bad ones by those fans. They don't rip him for being active. They rip him for signing and/or acquiring players with questionable skills.

Are you saying the Reds should be handing out one of those overpriced contracts?

BRM
12-13-2006, 05:01 PM
Are you saying the Reds should be handing out one of those overpriced contracts?

Not necessarily. I'm glad they avoided the likes of Meche and Marquis. I would have liked to seen them make a run at a Zito or Schmidt though. Then again, maybe Wayne did contact those guys and was rejected. Who knows for sure?

Dracodave
12-13-2006, 05:04 PM
No but atleast start trading. Do something, dont just sit around and watch everyone else get better.


Astros got Jennings to go with Roy. Cubs got...well, they'll still manage to struggle.

All we hear is someone else got, someone else got. We seriously should consider a Arroyo deal that would put us ahead like Mulders deal. Why keep Bronson if he doesnt want to stay? Get younger and better for him.

Explore every option. Not just free-agency. And stop wasting time on Stanton's and Weathers. Go for the Speiers and Delluci's. Thats how you manage money. Deals in free-agency not just signing to sign. However, thats what Wayne has done this offseason.

geniusMoment
12-13-2006, 05:12 PM
I'm so sick of hearing how the cubs overpaid, sure they did, and they have the best lineup potential in the division, especially if they sign Floyd.

Soriano
DeRosa
Lee
Ramirez
Floyd
Murton/Jones
Barrett

That blows away all the other lineups. And their rotation of:

Zambrano
Prior
Lilly
Marquis
Marmol

That is a rotation that has potential, I could easily see it being better than anyone elses in the division. Everyone's laughing at the cubs now, I'm not so sure they'll be laughing in August.

TRF
12-13-2006, 05:46 PM
Yet when he is active, the moves get panned.

Darned if he does, darned if he doesn't.

Either way, several fans on this board find a way to remain miserable.

Not by me he isn't. His actions are all we can either damn him or praise him.

I praise him for not spending 40+ mil on guys like Meche, but I'll call him out on acquisitions like Stanton (who I feel is going to have a bad year) regardless of cost.

See, I don't give a crap what the payroll is. I just care about the roster. I don't want crap, cheap or expensive. I don't want Hatteburg at 1B for an entire season. I don't want 30 starts from Milton or Lohse. I don't want AGon hitting higher than 8th. And I never want to see Joe Freaking Mays, Kim, Yan or Franklin in a Reds uniform again.

Handofdeath
12-13-2006, 05:58 PM
Not necessarily. I'm glad they avoided the likes of Meche and Marquis. I would have liked to seen them make a run at a Zito or Schmidt though. Then again, maybe Wayne did contact those guys and was rejected. Who knows for sure?

If I'm mistaken Zito is still available. Who's to say the Reds don't sign him? Awfully lot of money to pay when all you need is a #3 though. Jason Schmidt? 16 million a year for a guy who's won over 15 games twice in 10 seasons. Why should the Reds do that? People complain and say that the Reds are "signing just to sign" but what would getting Schmidt or Zito be? The Reds have two top starters and it makes no sense to spend that kind of money on pitchers who aren't as good as what you have now. None of the big free agent signings to this date would have helped or made that much sense for the Reds to do. This years free agent class is horribly weak and overpriced. If the Reds are going to be successful in the long term signing an overweight soon-to-be DH in Carlos Lee will not get it done. Next year when the free agent class is much much better the teams that are moronically spending now on lesser players will not have the money available to sign the better talent that will be available. Krivsky is smart to wait. And to those who complain that Krivsky is compiling too many relief pitchers, what is one of the hardest things for teams to get? Good relievers. The Reds bullpen may not have anyone great, but they have a lot of good ones. Someone is going to come knocking and need some relief arms. Remember the price that was paid on the Reds side for The Trade? Think about that. Krivsky has a plan. Just wait. Patience, my friends, patience.

Falls City Beer
12-13-2006, 06:00 PM
If I'm mistaken Zito is still available. Who's to say the Reds don't sign him?

I've got a 75 million dollar payroll ceiling that says so.

BRM
12-13-2006, 06:03 PM
If I'm mistaken Zito is still available. Who's to say the Reds don't sign him? Awfully lot of money to pay when all you need is a #3 though. Jason Schmidt? 16 million a year for a guy who's won over 15 games twice in 10 seasons. Why should the Reds do that? People complain and say that the Reds are "signing just to sign" but what would getting Schmidt or Zito be?

Getting Zito instantly gives the Reds the best rotation in the division (maybe the NL) and likely makes them the favorites.

Dracodave
12-13-2006, 06:04 PM
I've got a 75 million dollar payroll ceiling that says so.

I've got one that says we should start the firesale if we dont start doing something.:eek:

TRF
12-13-2006, 06:08 PM
Getting Zito instantly gives the Reds the best rotation in the division (maybe the NL) and likely makes them the favorites.

Only if you think:

David Ross' career year was indicative of his future production
Jr. moves to a corner OF position
Deno/Freel are the real deal in CF
Hatteburg can repeat his first 3 1/2 months, but do it for the entire season
That AGon's glove makes up for his weak offense.Me? I'm iffy on most of that list.

Falls City Beer
12-13-2006, 06:08 PM
I've got one that says we should start the firesale if we dont start doing something.:eek:

I've been firmly convinced that this is the way to go. I wasn't sure for a while, but I'm resigned that this is probably the best way.

They punted 2006 and are going to punt 2007; why not put the real energy into just doing it right and fully this time? Clear the workbench and start over.

Dracodave
12-13-2006, 06:10 PM
I wouldnt need the convincing if we actually started trying to sign someone decent, or looked into trades. Seems to me that Krivsky is too good at hidding what he's doing.

He's got his poker face on, even when we've folded all the cards.

BRM
12-13-2006, 06:12 PM
Only if you think:

David Ross' career year was indicative of his future production
Jr. moves to a corner OF position
Deno/Freel are the real deal in CF
Hatteburg can repeat his first 3 1/2 months, but do it for the entire season
That AGon's glove makes up for his weak offense.Me? I'm iffy on most of that list.

So you are saying that the Reds will struggle even with a top notch staff because the offense will be so bad? I can see that. I don't think Wayne is done with the offense though. I can see him getting someone to platoon with Hat. Junior moving to a corner? I'm starting to have doubts on that happening.

RFS62
12-13-2006, 06:14 PM
They punted 2006 and are going to punt 2007



They punted 2006??????

The most controversial trade in recent memory in an effort to stay in contention in a weak division is punting?

I'd say they went for it on 4th and long.

TRF
12-13-2006, 06:36 PM
They punted 2006??????

The most controversial trade in recent memory in an effort to stay in contention in a weak division is punting?

I'd say they went for it on 4th and long.

Unfortunately they only lined up 6 guys.

RFS62
12-13-2006, 06:37 PM
Unfortunately they only lined up 6 guys.


That's open to debate.

But the play calling represents their intent. The result of the trade was the execution of that intent.

Two very different things.

They didn't punt. They went for it.

Handofdeath
12-13-2006, 06:38 PM
Getting Zito instantly gives the Reds the best rotation in the division (maybe the NL) and likely makes them the favorites.

Yes and it keeps the Reds from signing anybody else. It will mean that Harang won't resign without a better contract than Zito and Dunn will be gone for sure. Signing Zito will create more holes than it fills.

ochre
12-13-2006, 06:39 PM
They punted 2006??????

The most controversial trade in recent memory in an effort to stay in contention in a weak division is punting?

I'd say they went for it on 4th and long.
Nah. They tried a 70 yd. Field Goal and walked off the field as the other team returned it from the 20, where it was destined to land, for a touchdown to break the tie as the clock expired.

TRF
12-13-2006, 06:45 PM
Art Shell calls a lot of plays too.

And the Raiders still stink. It ain't all the players fault. (ok maybe in Oakland it is)

Problem is the best play was to stand pat. A good seasoned GM would have seen that. I'm hoping Krivsky realizes his error and doesn't do it again.

Sometimes it's the moves not made that are the best ones. Stand pat with Kearns and Lopez, and what might their value be during this offseason? JimBo won't shop them, He drafted/traded for them. Twice for FeLo.

But when teams are handing 50 mil to that fat tub of goo Carlos Lee, Kearns could have netted a mint.

And the Reds still would have gotten Schoenweiss and Cormier and Guardado.

Essentially Bray's innings go to Shackelford, Maj's go to Standridge/Franklin.

What would have been the difference? some actual offense down the stretch.

RFS62
12-13-2006, 06:50 PM
Art Shell calls a lot of plays too.

And the Raiders still stink. It ain't all the players fault. (ok maybe in Oakland it is)

Problem is the best play was to stand pat. A good seasoned GM would have seen that. I'm hoping Krivsky realizes his error and doesn't do it again.



Yep. Stand pat. In quicksand. We were sinking like a rock in a year where we had a chance.

You can argue all you want about the execution of their intent, but I'll never agree that standing pat was the right choice, for a multitude of reasons.




But when teams are handing 50 mil to that fat tub of goo Carlos Lee, Kearns could have netted a mint.



So, Krivsky should have known the market would explode this offseason? I'd like to get some lotto numbers from him if so.

I know you aren't suggesting that Kearns would have been in the same class as Lee on the trading block, are you?

TRF
12-13-2006, 06:56 PM
Yep. Stand pat. In quicksand. We were sinking like a rock in a year where we had a chance.

You can argue all you want about the execution of their intent, but I'll never agree that standing pat was the right choice, for a multitude of reasons.

So, Krivsky should have known the market would explode this offseason? I'd like to get some lotto numbers from him if so.

I know you aren't suggesting that Kearns would have been in the same class as Lee on the trading block, are you?

Wily Mo was gone. Losing two MAJOR offensive cogs for an unproven rookie pitcher, and a pitcher whose arm had been ridden like Hidalgo is is BAD STRATEGY. Sometimes it's ok to stand pat.

And hell yes he should have known. He's a GM! He knows about the influx of money from the new TV deals and satelite radio. He had to know the Reds would have extra cash. And if the Reds have it, everybody does.

No, I am not suggesting Kearns was on a level with Lee.

Now Gary Matthews Jr., well yeah. Kearns is a better defender than either of them. more range. better arm. His bat is weaker than Lee's, but better than Matthews. He's also younger than both of them. And IF the rumor that Oakland is dangling Dan Haren are true, that is a perfect match.

RFS62
12-13-2006, 07:08 PM
Sometimes it's ok to stand pat.




I agree with this. Sometimes it's ok. Sometimes it's the best thing to do.

I don't think this was one of those times.

A new owner, a team in contention in a weak division, real excitement in the fan base for the first time in a while.....

The time was right to go for it. How it turned out is a different issue.

What about the opportunity cost of simply giving up. That's what you're suggesting. Giving up. Doing nothing.

That would have made Castellini look like a big fraud. It wasn't acceptable, given all the things that had gone on that year up to that point.

It's about branding. Bringing back hope. So much had been said and written about the new attitude and approach. So much marketing goodwill had been generated.

I can easily accept criticism of the front office on the return. I totally disagree with the notion that we could stand pat in that situation.

Ltlabner
12-13-2006, 07:17 PM
But when teams are handing 50 mil to that fat tub of goo Carlos Lee, Kearns could have netted a mint.

Um...if we had done nothing mid 2006 for bullpen help we would have still need that help now wouldnt we?

And the price of all pitching has gone up tremendously no?

So the "mint" Kearns could return (assuming he didn't get injured before the end of last season, or had a horrible finish like the rest of the team thus driving down his value) now is less relative to what it could have returned in mid 2006. Call it "baseball inflation" if you will.

That doesn't mean Krivsky didn't fumble on maxamizing his return during the trade and could have gotten more back then. But the concept of trading then over now still makes sense.

AdamDunn
12-13-2006, 07:18 PM
Instead of getting Zito, how about another bat? Granted, we could use another good arm. However, in the second half, it was the Reds hitting that let the team down, not the pitching.

RFS62
12-13-2006, 07:22 PM
And hell yes he should have known. He's a GM! He knows about the influx of money from the new TV deals and satelite radio. He had to know the Reds would have extra cash. And if the Reds have it, everybody does.



Regarding this, I'll agree that he should have known more money was coming in. How much was understood at that time, I can't say, but I'll completely concede that point.

But there's no way in hell he or anyone else could have predicted the runaway inflation in player salaries we've seen thus far this offseason. No way.

It's the biggest topic of conversation in baseball right now, and everyone is surprised at the contracts that are going out.

Dracodave
12-13-2006, 07:23 PM
That doesn't mean Krivsky didn't fumble on maxamizing his return during the trade and could have gotten more back then. But the concept of trading then over now still makes sense.


Did he fumble? I'm not quite sure of what return we could have likely got out of them. Nor do I really want to rehash the agruement. Kearns might have gone on to play to his potential for us, or he could have done what he did best..turned into JD Drew. Only time could have told us, but the ship was sinking anyway.

Spring~Fields
12-13-2006, 07:23 PM
I'm so sick of hearing how the cubs overpaid, sure they did, and they have the best lineup potential in the division, especially if they sign Floyd.

Soriano
DeRosa
Lee
Ramirez
Floyd
Murton/Jones
Barrett

That blows away all the other lineups. And their rotation of:

Zambrano
Prior
Lilly
Marquis
Marmol

That is a rotation that has potential, I could easily see it being better than anyone elses in the division. Everyone's laughing at the cubs now, I'm not so sure they'll be laughing in August.

How about in July?
I won’t be laughing, well, maybe at Narron and his chronic need to tinker with the lineup that has no bench support to begin with.

I think that Lou and his Cubs will have a real nice time at the GABP this year and actually help the Reds attendance as a latent effect. It can be a good thing when the competition improves the product that they bring for the fans to see, it can also push the Reds, Pirates, and Brewers to either swim or drown.

TRF
12-14-2006, 12:15 AM
Regarding this, I'll agree that he should have known more money was coming in. How much was understood at that time, I can't say, but I'll completely concede that point.

But there's no way in hell he or anyone else could have predicted the runaway inflation in player salaries we've seen thus far this offseason. No way.

It's the biggest topic of conversation in baseball right now, and everyone is surprised at the contracts that are going out.

And that surprises me. After all when have owners/GM's ever shown restraint when the money was flowing in the FA era?

TRF
12-14-2006, 12:16 AM
Um...if we had done nothing mid 2006 for bullpen help we would have still need that help now wouldnt we?

And the price of all pitching has gone up tremendously no?

So the "mint" Kearns could return (assuming he didn't get injured before the end of last season, or had a horrible finish like the rest of the team thus driving down his value) now is less relative to what it could have returned in mid 2006. Call it "baseball inflation" if you will.

That doesn't mean Krivsky didn't fumble on maxamizing his return during the trade and could have gotten more back then. But the concept of trading then over now still makes sense.

What help? an unproven rookie whose upside may be no better than Calvin Medlock and a tired arm? (Majewski)

Ron Madden
12-14-2006, 03:05 AM
Not by me he isn't. His actions are all we can either damn him or praise him.

I praise him for not spending 40+ mil on guys like Meche, but I'll call him out on acquisitions like Stanton (who I feel is going to have a bad year) regardless of cost.

See, I don't give a crap what the payroll is. I just care about the roster. I don't want crap, cheap or expensive. I don't want Hatteburg at 1B for an entire season. I don't want 30 starts from Milton or Lohse. I don't want AGon hitting higher than 8th. And I never want to see Joe Freaking Mays, Kim, Yan or Franklin in a Reds uniform again.


Well said TRF, Took the words right outta my mouth. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
12-14-2006, 04:49 AM
That's open to debate.

But the play calling represents their intent. The result of the trade was the execution of that intent.

Two very different things.

They didn't punt. They went for it.

I understand and respect your point here RFS62,

I'm all for a GM with ambition. The will to win is a good thing.

GMs with ambition are easy to find they are scattered throughout the history of the game.

GMs with the ability to identify and evaluate talent are rare.

I'm not sure about Kriviski myself at this point. Wayne has made a few good moves. ( hope they weren't beginners luck) and he has made many moves that make no sense to me at all.

I've learned a great deal since joining RedsZone. Seems to me the opinions of members I respect the most are split pretty even concerning WK.

I really want Wayne to succeed but he worries me to no end.