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View Full Version : Would you do Encarnacion for Ervin Santana?



Spitball
12-15-2006, 02:02 PM
I'm just curious. :)

savafan
12-15-2006, 02:05 PM
Juan Encarnacion? ;)

Falls City Beer
12-15-2006, 02:07 PM
No.

M2
12-15-2006, 02:08 PM
I think the real art would be to figure out a way to have both.

Jpup
12-15-2006, 02:16 PM
There is a reason why the Angels want to trade him, I am guessing he is either hurt or a head case.

TheBigLebowski
12-15-2006, 02:19 PM
Hell nawh.

flyer85
12-15-2006, 02:24 PM
No, I am not enamored with the extreme FB tendencies and high HR rate of Santana.

deltachi8
12-15-2006, 02:25 PM
No.

Krusty
12-15-2006, 02:39 PM
Nah. I think Encarncion will be an offensive force on this club within three years.

RedsManRick
12-15-2006, 02:47 PM
I'd love to have Santana on our team, but I wouldn't trade EE for him. As shallow as our system is, it seems we're deeper in terms of arms than we are in terms of bats. We have no good options to replace him in the short term and our offense could be worse than our pitching in '07.

Benihana
12-15-2006, 02:49 PM
Nah. I think Encarncion will be an offensive force on this club within three years.

Three years? I guess it depends on what your definition of an offensive force is. I expect EdE to be the second best offensive player on the team this year, and (hopefully) an All Star by 2008. The main roadblock to the latter goal will be the plethora of great 3B in the NL (Rolen, Wright, Zimmerman, etc.)

Falls City Beer
12-15-2006, 02:51 PM
As shallow as our system is, it seems we're deeper in terms of arms than we are in terms of bats. We have no good options to replace him in the short term and our offense could be worse than our pitching in '07.


I'm not being snipy. I really want to know: how do you see the system having more arms than bats?

I think the Reds are in dire straits with the bats as well, but I'm not sure how one can honestly say the Reds are any better at all in the arms department.

RedsManRick
12-15-2006, 03:10 PM
FCB, I think we're shallow in both departments, don't get me wrong. In fact, looking back, perhaps we're not imbalanced much at all. I think my second point is the better one. We've got basically no internal options to play 3B next year outside of EE. I suppose you could put Castro or Freel over there, but I think the downgrade at 3B would outweigh the upgrade in the rotation.

I'm curious to see Nate Silver's new PECOTA projections for both EE and Santana. The 2006 model shows EE at 23.6 VORP to Santana's 19.0 in 2007, but obviously those are going to change.

It's actually a really even trade in my opinion, I'd just rather have EE. However, if I could send them Votto & Cueto I'd be all over it. Then we trade Milton & Change for Sexson. Then I pinch myself and wake up.

dougdirt
12-15-2006, 03:19 PM
Not a chance. There have been rumors of arm problems with Santana for a few months now and I dont want to be the team who finds out the hard way.

Falls City Beer
12-15-2006, 03:21 PM
FCB, I think we're shallow in both departments, don't get me wrong. In fact, looking back, perhaps we're not imbalanced much at all. I think my second point is the better one. We've got basically no internal options to play 3B next year outside of EE. I suppose you could put Castro or Freel over there, but I think the downgrade at 3B would outweigh the upgrade in the rotation.

I'm curious to see Nate Silver's new PECOTA projections for both EE and Santana. The 2006 model shows EE at 23.6 VORP to Santana's 19.0 in 2007, but obviously those are going to change.

It's actually a really even trade in my opinion, I'd just rather have EE. However, if I could send them Votto & Cueto I'd be all over it. Then we trade Milton & Change for Sexson. Then I pinch myself and wake up.


Okay, fair enough. I would never trade EE for a guy like Santana, either--and yes, for the reasons you list.

I guess I was fishing for a reason to believe the Reds had some hidden arms in the minors that I didn't know about.

Spitball
12-15-2006, 03:52 PM
Not a chance. There have been rumors of arm problems with Santana for a few months now and I dont want to be the team who finds out the hard way.

Do you have a source for these rumors? I have not heard any alarming stories about arm troubles.

His second half was not as good as the first, but those things happen for reasons other than serious arm problems.

As for me, I'd reluctantly trade EE for Santana and take my chances on the pitcher. Starting pitchers are harder to develop than third basemen. I'd rather scrounge the bargain basement for someone to play third than scrounge the discount bin for a starting pitcher.

Team Clark
12-15-2006, 04:01 PM
I guess I was fishing for a reason to believe the Reds had some hidden arms in the minors that I didn't know about.

Maybe Almaraz figured that out too...:laugh:

dougdirt
12-15-2006, 04:35 PM
Spitball, I dont remember where I read it at, but I did read it somewhere. I will see what I can come up with for a link.

TOBTTReds
12-15-2006, 05:28 PM
No deal. We would struggle to score runs for a while, and who would be his replacement? We need bats desperately right now.

Spitball
12-15-2006, 06:41 PM
No deal. We would struggle to score runs for a while, and who would be his replacement? We need bats desperately right now.

Bats are much easier to obtain than arms. Santana was a 16 game winner with a 1.23 WHIP. I would rather have Harang, Arroyo, and Santana going three nights with Freel at third and a hired bat in right than the current rotation and Edwin Encarnacion at third.

OnBaseMachine
12-15-2006, 07:12 PM
Hell no. I like Ervin Santana, but not for Edwin.

reds44
12-15-2006, 07:17 PM
No, no, no.

No.

Ron Madden
12-15-2006, 07:22 PM
No.

Spring~Fields
12-15-2006, 08:05 PM
They're young, meaning that I was hoping that EE and Phillips would continue to show the qualities that we have seen, with the thought that they would continue to grow into excellence.

Can’t we offer up others that might make such a trade work?

Red in Chicago
12-15-2006, 08:28 PM
Bats are much easier to obtain than arms. Santana was a 16 game winner with a 1.23 WHIP. I would rather have Harang, Arroyo, and Santana going three nights with Freel at third and a hired bat in right than the current rotation and Edwin Encarnacion at third.

nice point of view...

Doc. Scott
12-15-2006, 09:12 PM
There was a time not too long ago where I might have pulled the trigger on something like this. With the much-more-iffy offense we have now, no way, not even if Ervin is healthy as a horse.

pedro
12-15-2006, 09:32 PM
If Edwin proves in the next year that he can't play 3B then I might consider trading him, but not now. Bats like that with the type of range he has at 3rd don't come easy.

RedLegSuperStar
12-15-2006, 09:41 PM
can't say I'd do that deal...

redsandrails
12-16-2006, 12:41 AM
I would do it if the Angels included M. Itzurus or D. McPherson (who they are giving up on apparently)... even throwing in a Cormier/Hatteburg type.

GAC
12-16-2006, 09:03 AM
The title of this thread is kinda suggestive... "Would you DO Encarnacion for Ervin Santana?"

Nah! Maybe Barry Zito, but only if he buys me drinks afterwards! :evil:

TOBTTReds
12-17-2006, 05:39 PM
Bats are much easier to obtain than arms. Santana was a 16 game winner with a 1.23 WHIP. I would rather have Harang, Arroyo, and Santana going three nights with Freel at third and a hired bat in right than the current rotation and Edwin Encarnacion at third.

I agree with your statement about getting bats, but in this situation, I don't think it applies. Our offense is relatively poor. We need all the bats we can get.

Spitball
12-17-2006, 06:17 PM
I agree with your statement about getting bats, but in this situation, I don't think it applies. Our offense is relatively poor. We need all the bats we can get.

I hear what you are saying, but our starting pitching is much more than relatively poor after Harang and Arroyo. So, when I look at the growing cost of crappy starting pitchers in this years market, I'd have to say Santana would easily be worth EE.

Shudder to think what kind of pitching and season the Reds would have had if they hadn't traded Pena for Arroyo.

Jpup
12-17-2006, 07:11 PM
Shudder to think what kind of pitching and season the Reds would have had if they hadn't traded Pena for Arroyo.

it wouldn't have mattered. They didn't win anyway.

Chip R
12-17-2006, 07:30 PM
I've got as much man-love for EE as anyone on the board. But I think Spitball is right. We really need more pitching. If it comes at the expense of some offense, so be it. Besides, HOU went to the World Series in 2005 and finished 2nd in 2006 with an offense that could be charitably described as crappy. If you do that, hopefully Wayne could find someone with a halfway decent bat and halfway decent glove to man 3rd.

Jpup
12-17-2006, 07:31 PM
I've got as much man-love for EE as anyone on the board. But I think Spitball is right. We really need more pitching. If it comes at the expense of some offense, so be it. Besides, HOU went to the World Series in 2005 and finished 2nd in 2006 with an offense that could be charitably described as crappy. If you do that, hopefully Wayne could find someone with a halfway decent bat and halfway decent glove to man 3rd.

the key there is that they finished 2nd. They couldn't hit the Sox pitching, so they got drummed.

Chip R
12-17-2006, 07:38 PM
the key there is that they finished 2nd. They couldn't hit the Sox pitching, so they got drummed.


Well, get me to the World Series and I'll take my chances. If the alternative to losing the World Series with good pitching and lousy hitting is finishing 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th with bad pitching and good hitting, I'll take the former.

Jr's Boy
12-18-2006, 06:41 PM
Maybe if we still had Aurilia,but not now.

Spitball
12-18-2006, 11:58 PM
Maybe if we still had Aurilia,but not now.

Aaron Boone and David Bell are not as far from the radar screen as Aurilia was when they signed him. It would be easier to replace EE than it would be to find a viable starter for the rotation. The Angels need a third baseman and the Reds need a starting pitcher capable of winning 16 games and putting up a 1.23 WHIP. The Reds are more capable of winning the NL Central with Harang, Arroyo, and Santana starting three times a week and Aaron Boone at third than they are with Milton, Lohse, and Elizardo starting three times a week and EE at third. I really like Encarnacion, but I like American League pitchers with 16 wins and WHIPS of 1.23 better.