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savafan
12-16-2006, 08:07 PM
Just a general question, if you were a GM and had the opportunity to choose only one of these guys to play for your team in their prime, which one would you choose?

Jim Rice Stats:


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1974 21 BOS AL 24 67 6 18 2 1 1 13 0 0 4 12 .269 .307 .373 25 0 3 0 1 2
1975 22 BOS AL 144 564 92 174 29 4 22 102 10 5 36 122 .309 .350 .491 277 1 8 7 4 19 MVP-3,RoY-2
1976 23 BOS AL 153 581 75 164 25 8 25 85 8 5 28 123 .282 .315 .482 280 2 9 2 4 18
1977 24 BOS AL 160 644 104 206 29 15 39 114 5 4 53 120 .320 .376 .593 382 0 5 10 8 21 MVP-4,AS
1978 25 BOS AL 163 677 121 213 25 15 46 139 7 5 58 126 .315 .370 .600 406 1 5 7 5 15 MVP-1,AS
1979 26 BOS AL 158 619 117 201 39 6 39 130 9 4 57 97 .325 .381 .596 369 0 8 4 4 16 MVP-5,AS
1980 27 BOS AL 124 504 81 148 22 6 24 86 8 3 30 87 .294 .336 .504 254 1 3 5 4 16 AS
1981 28 BOS AL 108 451 51 128 18 1 17 62 2 2 34 76 .284 .333 .441 199 0 7 3 3 14
1982 29 BOS AL 145 573 86 177 24 5 24 97 0 1 55 98 .309 .375 .494 283 0 3 6 7 29 MVP-19
1983 30 BOS AL 155 626 90 191 34 1 39 126 0 2 52 102 .305 .361 .550 344 0 5 10 6 31 SS,MVP-4,AS
1984 31 BOS AL 159 657 98 184 25 7 28 122 4 0 44 102 .280 .323 .467 307 0 6 8 1 36 SS,MVP-13,AS
1985 32 BOS AL 140 546 85 159 20 3 27 103 2 0 51 75 .291 .349 .487 266 0 9 5 2 35 AS
1986 33 BOS AL 157 618 98 200 39 2 20 110 0 1 62 78 .324 .384 .490 303 0 9 5 4 19 MVP-3,AS
1987 34 BOS AL 108 404 66 112 14 0 13 62 1 1 45 77 .277 .357 .408 165 0 3 3 7 22
1988 35 BOS AL 135 485 57 128 18 3 15 72 1 1 48 89 .264 .330 .406 197 0 6 2 3 18
1989 36 BOS AL 56 209 22 49 10 2 3 28 1 0 13 39 .234 .276 .344 72 0 5 0 1 4
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
16 Seasons 8225 2452 79 1451 34 1423 .298 .352 .502 5 94 77 64 315
2089 1249 373 382 58 670 4129


Dave Parker Stats:


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1973 22 PIT NL 54 139 17 40 9 1 4 14 1 1 2 27 .288 .308 .453 63 1 0 1 2 2
1974 23 PIT NL 73 220 27 62 10 3 4 29 3 3 10 53 .282 .322 .409 90 0 0 1 3 3
1975 24 PIT NL 148 558 75 172 35 10 25 101 8 6 38 89 .308 .357 .541 302 0 1 4 5 18 MVP-3
1976 25 PIT NL 138 537 82 168 28 10 13 90 19 7 30 80 .313 .349 .475 255 0 4 6 2 16 MVP-20
1977 26 PIT NL 159 637 107 215 44 8 21 88 17 19 58 107 .338 .397 .531 338 0 4 13 7 7 MVP-3,AS
1978 27 PIT NL 148 581 102 194 32 12 30 117 20 7 57 92 .334 .394 .585 340 0 2 23 2 8 MVP-1
1979 28 PIT NL 158 622 109 193 45 7 25 94 20 4 67 101 .310 .380 .526 327 0 9 14 9 7 MVP-10,AS
1980 29 PIT NL 139 518 71 153 31 1 17 79 10 7 25 69 .295 .327 .458 237 0 5 5 2 8 AS
1981 30 PIT NL 67 240 29 62 14 3 9 48 6 2 9 25 .258 .287 .454 109 0 3 3 2 5 AS
1982 31 PIT NL 73 244 41 66 19 3 6 29 7 5 22 45 .270 .330 .447 109 0 3 2 1 7
1983 32 PIT NL 144 552 68 154 29 4 12 69 12 9 28 89 .279 .311 .411 227 0 6 6 0 11
1984 33 CIN NL 156 607 73 173 28 0 16 94 11 10 41 89 .285 .328 .410 249 0 6 10 1 8
1985 34 CIN NL 160 635 88 198 42 4 34 125 5 13 52 80 .312 .365 .551 350 0 4 24 3 26 SS,MVP-2,AS
1986 35 CIN NL 162 637 89 174 31 3 31 116 1 6 56 126 .273 .330 .477 304 0 6 16 1 18 SS,MVP-5,AS
1987 36 CIN NL 153 589 77 149 28 0 26 97 7 3 44 104 .253 .311 .433 255 0 6 13 8 14
1988 37 OAK AL 101 377 43 97 18 1 12 55 0 1 32 70 .257 .314 .406 153 0 2 2 0 3
1989 38 OAK AL 144 553 56 146 27 0 22 97 0 0 38 91 .264 .308 .432 239 0 8 13 1 21 MVP-11
1990 39 MIL AL 157 610 71 176 30 3 21 92 4 7 41 102 .289 .330 .451 275 0 14 11 4 18 SS,MVP-16,AS
1991 40 TOT AL 132 502 47 120 26 2 11 59 3 3 33 98 .239 .288 .365 183 0 3 3 3 9
CAL AL 119 466 45 108 22 2 11 56 3 2 29 91 .232 .279 .358 167 0 3 3 3 9
TOR AL 13 36 2 12 4 0 0 3 0 1 4 7 .333 .400 .444 16 0 0 0 0 0
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
19 Seasons 9358 2712 75 1493 113 1537 .290 .339 .471 1 86 170 56 209
2466 1272 526 339 154 683 4405

westofyou
12-16-2006, 08:19 PM
Parker had a gun and was a premier fielder who didn't GIDP the way Rice did.

PickOff
12-16-2006, 08:20 PM
Rice's consistency over Parker's defense.

OldRightHander
12-16-2006, 08:24 PM
I wouldn't take either of them right now. I'd want someone just a tad younger. :)

In their prime though, I would have taken Parker.

redsupport
12-16-2006, 08:55 PM
8 100 rbi seasons for rice gets the nod

Highlifeman21
12-16-2006, 09:39 PM
8 100 rbi seasons for rice gets the nod

And the voters that decide the MVP love this logic.

RBIs are good!:thumbup:

Red in Chicago
12-16-2006, 10:02 PM
i'll take the cobra, despite his personal flaws...always loved that arm of his...

Ravenlord
12-16-2006, 10:04 PM
defense considered, have to go with Parker. also here he's the cooler person, but that could just be a bias.

RBA
12-16-2006, 10:18 PM
JIM RICE = 0 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS
DAVE PARKER = 3 RINGS!

Gotta give the edge to the man that can deliver the goods.

Yachtzee
12-16-2006, 10:49 PM
I take the Cobra.

Mainspark
12-18-2006, 02:45 PM
Parker. It comes down to the extra defensive abilities.

BuckeyeRedleg
12-18-2006, 03:01 PM
Parker.

NJReds
12-18-2006, 03:19 PM
It's tough...Rice had more sacrifice flies. But I'll go w/Parker.

15fan
12-18-2006, 03:49 PM
Parker.

So we can trade him for Jose Rijo.

savafan
12-18-2006, 03:56 PM
Parker.

So we can trade him for Jose Rijo.

Don't forget Birstas!

dabvu2498
12-18-2006, 03:59 PM
I am surprised by the results of this poll.

westofyou
12-18-2006, 04:05 PM
I am surprised by the results of this poll.

Dave Parker was an impact player on the bases and on both sides of the ball for quite awhile, I'll always remember him more as a Pirate then a Red and his throw in the AS game.

Rice played in a hitters league, on a hitters team in a hitters park, before the homogenized MLB blurred the lines between AL and NL that always plays into my memory, Rice was in that "other league"

Heath
12-18-2006, 04:12 PM
Dave Parker gets my vote.

Maybe for the reason that he had slipped up in the early '80s and rebounded with zeal. I think Parker took for granted what he had and he made good at the end.

dabvu2498
12-18-2006, 04:16 PM
Dave Parker was an impact player on the bases and on both sides of the ball for quite awhile, I'll always remember him more as a Pirate then a Red and his throw in the AS game.

Rice played in a hitters league, on a hitters team in a hitters park, before the homogenized MLB blurred the lines between AL and NL that always plays into my memory, Rice was in that "other league"

Rice career: .854 OPS vs .742 league average
Parker career: .810 OPS vs. .727 league average

Cedric
12-18-2006, 04:18 PM
Rice career: .854 OPS vs .742 league average
Parker career: .810 OPS vs. .727 league average

So we are talking about a .15 difference? Rice played in Fenway and wasn't near as good as Parker in the field and Parker has 3 rings.

What's surprising here?

dabvu2498
12-18-2006, 04:28 PM
What's surprising here?

I dunno... just... surprising.

BTW, Parker only has 2 rings.

Mainspark
12-18-2006, 04:36 PM
For a variety of reasons Rose's drive toward the hit record among them Parker's years with the Reds seem to largely have been forgotten. He had a couple of great seasons could easily have been MVP in '85 to go with a couple of decent ones, and played a key role in transforming the team from its horrific status in the early 1980s to perennial contenders from '85 through '88.

westofyou
12-18-2006, 04:47 PM
Rice career: .854 OPS vs .742 league average
Parker career: .810 OPS vs. .727 league average

I like Parkers speed early on, here's the 77-79 for both


JIM RICE

AGE BETWEEN 24 AND 26

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1977 Red Sox 24 160 644 104 206 29 15 39 6.06 114 53 120 5 4 .320 .593 .376 .969
1978 Red Sox 25 163 677 121 213 25 15 46 6.79 139 58 126 7 5 .315 .600 .370 .970
1979 Red Sox 26 158 619 117 201 39 6 39 6.30 130 57 97 9 4 .325 .596 .381 .977
TOTALS 481 1940 342 620 93 36 124 6.39 383 168 343 21 13 .320 .596 .376 .972
LG AVERAGE 1775 233 471 79 13 44 2.47 218 169 243 34 21 .266 .399 .330 .729
POS AVERAGE 1805 254 500 89 14 58 3.23 255 177 248 37 22 .277 .439 .342 .782

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1977 Red Sox 135 41 27 .653 7.79 382 83 .273 .363 .596 10 8 0 5 21 468 710 DH
1978 Red Sox 145 62 49 .729 7.99 406 86 .285 .381 .612 7 5 1 5 15 490 746 LF
1979 Red Sox 137 54 41 .709 8.29 369 84 .271 .378 .609 4 4 0 8 16 446 688 LF
TOTALS 417 157 117 .698 8.02 1157 253 .277 .374 .606 21 17 1 18 52 1404 2144
LG AVERAGE 235 0 0 .500 4.52 708 136 .134 .248 .436 12 10 22 17 41 1404 1993
POS AVERAGE 271 35 0 .556 5.21 793 161 .162 .281 .474 15 12 17 17 43 1404 2027



DAVE PARKER

AGE BETWEEN 26 AND 28

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1977 Pirates 26 159 637 107 215 44 8 21 3.30 88 58 107 17 19 .338 .531 .397 .927
1978 Pirates 27 148 581 102 194 32 12 30 5.16 117 57 92 20 7 .334 .585 .394 .979
1979 Pirates 28 158 622 109 193 45 7 25 4.02 94 67 101 20 4 .310 .526 .380 .906
TOTALS 465 1840 318 602 121 27 76 4.13 299 182 300 57 30 .327 .546 .390 .936
LG AVERAGE 1665 214 444 77 13 39 2.32 199 166 233 41 21 .267 .399 .334 .733
POS AVERAGE 1714 250 487 86 17 55 3.20 233 178 255 45 24 .284 .450 .351 .801

YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1977 Pirates 129 47 29 .690 7.71 338 73 .193 .311 .558 13 7 0 4 7 452 706 RF
1978 Pirates 133 63 46 .761 8.89 340 74 .251 .384 .629 23 2 0 2 8 404 642 RF
1979 Pirates 130 49 34 .700 7.82 327 77 .215 .355 .583 14 9 0 9 7 449 707 RF
TOTALS 392 159 109 .717 8.11 1005 224 .219 .349 .589 50 18 0 15 22 1305 2055
LG AVERAGE 225 0 0 .500 4.65 664 129 .132 .256 .444 22 9 13 14 36 1305 1867
POS AVERAGE 273 48 0 .582 5.66 771 158 .166 .295 .493 21 8 5 17 31 1305 1921

RBA
12-18-2006, 04:57 PM
I dunno... just... surprising.

BTW, Parker only has 2 rings.


You're right. The mighty Larussa team only won it in 1989 and not 88 and 90 as one might think of a dynasty.

Spitball
12-18-2006, 05:44 PM
... also here he's the cooler person, but that could just be a bias.

I don't know what you mean by cooler person (his drug use?), but Jim Ed Rice was one of the most respected players in baseball. Roger Clemens wore his number 14 during spring training games to honor him the year his playing days ended.

Mainspark
12-18-2006, 06:16 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Rice was usually hostile to sports reporters, even though he played at a time when media scrutiny of athletes was definitely at a lower level than it is today.
In a perfect world, that wouldn't be a factor when it comes to Hall of Fame selections, I guess, but when your statistics put you in the "maybe/probably deserving" category, past rudeness can come back to haunt you.

Cyclone792
12-18-2006, 06:17 PM
I'll take Parker by slight edge. Their career rate stats are fairly even, and Rice may have an edge there. But career counting stats favor Parker, peak favors Parker, and Parker also has a very slight positional adjustment that could be tossed in ...


Win Shares
Parker Rice
Career 327 282

Top 3 101 92
Top 5 156 142
Top 7 199 183
Top 10 248 233
Top 12 276 262

Per 162 21.48 21.86


WARP
Parker Rice
Career 84.9 79.3

Top 3 29.4 26.8
Top 5 46.2 41.2
Top 7 56.4 53.5
Top 10 67.6 67.5
Top 12 73.1 75.5

Per 162 5.58 6.15

Spitball
12-18-2006, 09:32 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Rice was usually hostile to sports reporters, even though he played at a time when media scrutiny of athletes was definitely at a lower level than it is today.
In a perfect world, that wouldn't be a factor when it comes to Hall of Fame selections, I guess, but when your statistics put you in the "maybe/probably deserving" category, past rudeness can come back to haunt you.

Rice often refused to talk to the press, but not to the degree that we saw with the two leftfielders, Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski, who proceded him in Boston. The town has a history of being hard on its star sluggers when wins have been scarce.

Plus, Boston sports writers have campaigned for his induction for the last several years, so I doubt his hostility hurt him in his hometown.

bucksfan
12-18-2006, 09:46 PM
I chose Rice based only on my personal recollection (i.e. not true facts but at least a perception of them!). I was actually their stats were as close as they were, and I understand when ballpark/league adjusted htey are dang close. But since they are this close, I still have to side with the nostalgic side of me which remembers (in my little world) Jim Rice as absolutely at one time the most feared hitter in baseball. But I did like Parkway. In fact our dog is named Parker and he gets called Parkway all the time.

cincinnati chili
12-18-2006, 09:51 PM
This is a great thread. My perception was that Rice was the better player, but there's probably a better argument for Parker.

For the record, Bill James ranked Dave Parker as the 14th best right fielder in history and Rice as the 27th best left fielder in history.

If anyone knows anyone at the Sons of Sam Horn, I'd love for you to direct them to this thread and see what they think of it. I bet the poll would run the other way over there.

Spitball
12-18-2006, 11:44 PM
If anyone knows anyone at the Sons of Sam Horn, I'd love for you to direct them to this thread and see what they think of it. I bet the poll would run the other way over there.

Whoa! You don't want to do that. I posted a link to a Redszone thread over there a couple of years ago and crashed this board. They have way too many members.

cincinnati chili
12-19-2006, 12:02 AM
Whoa! You don't want to do that. I posted a link to a Redszone thread over there a couple of years ago and crashed this board. They have way too many members.

I'm all for chaos.

Rice is somewhat of a divisive figure. Sure, the guy could rake. But they named the website "Sons of Sam Horn" and not "Sons of Jim Rice" for a reason.

Spitball
12-19-2006, 12:05 AM
I'm all for chaos.

Rice is somewhat of a divisive figure. Sure, the guy could rake. But they named the website "Sons of Sam Horn" and not "Sons of Jim Rice" for a reason.

Paging Boss Hog! You can see it, I warned him.

RedsBaron
12-19-2006, 06:48 AM
I group Rice and Parker along with Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy in a quartet of outfielders who are often mentioned as HOF candidates. I'm never been able to decide which of them was better (probably Dawson). They probably should either all be in the HOF or none of them should be.

westofyou
12-19-2006, 09:54 AM
I group Rice and Parker along with Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy in a quartet of outfielders who are often mentioned as HOF candidates.
The Indian Bob Johnson group.

RedsBaron
12-19-2006, 11:01 AM
The Indian Bob Johnson group.

In these PC times shouldn't that be "Native American Bob"?;)

max venable
12-19-2006, 06:35 PM
8 100 rbi seasons for rice gets the nod

Yeah...well Parker had 10 90+ rbi seasons compared to Rice's 9. :D

marcshoe
12-20-2006, 02:14 PM
I'm all for chaos.

Rice is somewhat of a divisive figure. Sure, the guy could rake. But they named the website "Sons of Sam Horn" and not "Sons of Jim Rice" for a reason.


Because SOSH is a cooler acronym than SOJR, or even SOCY?