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GriffeyFan
12-16-2006, 10:34 PM
Hello,
I have a personal situation that I would like to pose to the ladies of this forum. I don't know how many women peruse this forum, but I would think there would be a few. Guys, you're welcome to respond as well but I think the ladies will probably be able to answer this better.

Anyway...here goes. There is a girl that I used to work with at my job. We started out in the same department and I began about 9 months before she did and then she came on and we worked together for about 3.5 months before I moved on to a different division (same building and same floor).

Well, she was a taken woman when she started and she got married 6 months later. She also ended up moving to a different division and now works 2 aisles over from me. We still talk, though not as much as we used to because her current position doesn't allow for much personal phone calls and visiting. We usually shoot a few emails a day to each other and so on.

Even though I knew she was a taken girl when she started, I almost instantly fell for her. I had never met someone who had so many of the characteristics I was looking for in a woman. That said, I never indicated any of this to her because she was going to be married and I wasn't about to rock that boat.

So, the bombshell I received came about 2 weeks ago. She said she had something to tell me. In fact, she described it as her "drama." So she goes on to tell me that she is getting a divorce (married just over a year) and that she and her husband have been separated for almost 2 months. I was so totally shocked that I didn't know how to respond. That was about the last thing I expected her to say.

The stranger thing about the whole thing was that a little less than a week earlier she had asked me if I had a girlfriend (which I didn't) and then asked why and to keep her updated. I didn't think much about it b/c we would talk about those types of things from time to time. So now I'm wondering maybe that wasn't just a coincedence...or maybe it was.

Ok, so here's where I need your advice. I want to get her a little something for Christmas...something that just says "I'm thinking of you" or "I'm here if you need to talk." I don't want it to be too much. I want it to be a friendly gesture, not a "courting" gesture if you know what I mean.

I think there is a potential for us but I know that window might not be open until several months down the road. For now, I just want her to know that I'm here. She's a very smart girl though and I'm sure she already knew I liked her.

Anyway, so that's it. If you don't want to post anything here, you can PM me.

Thanks for listening.

WMR
12-16-2006, 10:37 PM
I can answer this one. She wants you dude.

http://www.amazon.com/Kama-Sutra-Sexual-Positions-DVD/dp/093926322X/sr=8-4/qid=1166326589/ref=pd_bbs_4/103-8659394-0249434?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Order soon though, only 3 left in stock.

You're so money and you don't even know it.

Spring~Fields
12-16-2006, 11:01 PM
Caveat emptor

Yachtzee
12-16-2006, 11:27 PM
I can answer this one. She wants you dude.

http://www.amazon.com/Kama-Sutra-Sexual-Positions-DVD/dp/093926322X/sr=8-4/qid=1166326589/ref=pd_bbs_4/103-8659394-0249434?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Order soon though, only 3 left in stock.

You're so money and you don't even know it.

:laugh: Classic.

Highlifeman21
12-17-2006, 11:00 AM
Spa package somewhere.

There's plenty in town, if you know sorta where she lives, try to get her a gift cert closer to her casa.

Toss a note in there along the lines of "Here's a little something to unwind 2006" or something like that. It's ambiguous, yet says you were thinkin of her.

I've never met a woman yet who doesn't like time at the spa.

CougarQuest
12-17-2006, 12:21 PM
Griffeyfan, I'm not sure how to tell you this, but SHE'S BEEN THROWING YOU HINTS!!! Ask her out already. After you've gone out, you'll KNOW what to get her.



Oh, and WMR's book idea is a 2nd date gift. Highlife's idea is an anniversary gift (1st month, 1st year) or the "she wants to go to the opera and there's a huge game on the same type" gift idea.

TeamMorris
12-17-2006, 12:48 PM
Griffeyfan, I'm not sure how to tell you this, but SHE'S BEEN THROWING YOU HINTS!!! Ask her out already. After you've gone out, you'll KNOW what to get her.


I would have to agree with CQ here (Hi CQ)! The hints are flying! Send her flowers with a nice card. People may roll eyes to that but I know they always make me feel special:) Do it soon and then ask her out for a drink or coffee after work some day. That way you can talk face to face and get to know her and the situation better before you ask here out on a real date;) ! Go for it & good luck!!

WVRed
12-17-2006, 01:49 PM
Griffeyfan, I'm not sure how to tell you this, but SHE'S BEEN THROWING YOU HINTS!!!


Most guys are clueless around women (myself included, speaking from experience) when it comes to subtlety. Although I give you credit GF for putting two and two together:).

My advice would be jewelry. It doesnt have to be an engagement ring, but it does show interest while not being overly familiar. Maybe try and see if you can find her birthstone.

Although i've got to admit, the Kama Sutra isnt a bad idea for yourself.;) Props to WillyMo.

Ltlabner
12-17-2006, 03:00 PM
Am I a total jerk, but only going by the facts given, I think I would keep a wide birth and avoid this potential relationship for a while? Giving her a gift, especially considering all of the hinting, only opens the door for more to follow.

Sorry to be a wetblanket, GF, but I'd be cautious of jumping into a serious relationship with anybody who is just getting out of a failed marriage. The shortness of the marriage, and that they've been seperated are certinally extinuating circumstances, but I'd rather she take some time to figure out what happened, deal with any issues she might be having due to the failed marriage, etc. Maybe she is amazingly well adjusted, but most people have baggage from a situation like that.

While your intentions to only express your support for her are admirable, if she indicates that she wants something more serrious (and she's already hinting like mad) would you only keep it friendly for the length of time you felt she needed or would you be tempted to let things happen right away?

I'd rather go through the heartache of fighting the urge to blurt out you're crazy about her, than the agony of finding out you are Mr. Rebound Guy.

Just my $.02. Like I said, I'm probably Mr Stick in the Mud but that's my take.

Heath
12-17-2006, 03:08 PM
Am I a total jerk, but only going by the facts given, I think I would keep a wide birth and avoid this potential relationship for a while? Giving her a gift, especially considering all of the hinting, only opens the door for more to follow.

Sorry to be a wetblanket, GF, but I'd be cautious of jumping into a serious relationship with anybody who is just getting out of a failed marriage. The shortness of the marriage, and that they've been seperated are certinally extinuating circumstances, but I'd rather she take some time to figure out what happened, deal with any issues she might be having due to the failed marriage, etc. Maybe she is amazingly well adjusted, but most people have baggage from a situation like that.

I'd rather go through the heartache of fighting the urge to blurt out you're crazy about her, than the agony of finding out you are Mr. Rebound Guy.

Just my $.02. Like I said, I'm probably Mr Stick in the Mud but that's my take.


Just my .02 is ditto on this.

Getting the rebound at one end doesn't mean you get the points at the other.

I agree with Lil' Abner...give her some time. If it's meant to be, it will happen.

KittyDuran
12-17-2006, 03:16 PM
I'd start out with a card... then see how she responds. On a personal note, I frown on office romances, too many politics involved for my taste. Like L'Abner I'd be cautious. Also, what YOU want out of the this relationship might be different than what she wants. She's just getting out of a failed marriage and seems to want to get back into the saddle again.


Even though I knew she was a taken girl when she started, I almost instantly fell for her. I had never met someone who had so many of the characteristics I was looking for in a woman. That said, I never indicated any of this to her because she was going to be married and I wasn't about to rock that boat.This sent warning signs to me - you are already taken with her (which she doesn't know) and you might get a letdown if she is looking at you as a stepping stone and not as long term.

savafan
12-17-2006, 04:02 PM
Well GF, I'm kinda in this situation right now, in the advanced stages, in that the two of us jumped, and now things are really complicated and messy.

I have to agree with Ltlabner when he says to be cautious. I wish I would have...

letsgojunior
12-17-2006, 04:21 PM
I can answer this one. She wants you dude.

http://www.amazon.com/Kama-Sutra-Sexual-Positions-DVD/dp/093926322X/sr=8-4/qid=1166326589/ref=pd_bbs_4/103-8659394-0249434?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Order soon though, only 3 left in stock.

You're so money and you don't even know it.

This is the best advice I've heard in recent memory.

Reds4Life
12-17-2006, 04:21 PM
Sounds like you are setting yourself up to be the rebound guy, which rarely works out and usually ends in disappointment and hurt feelings.

919191
12-17-2006, 05:29 PM
Also, what YOU want out of the this relationship might be different than what she wants. She's just getting out of a failed marriage and seems to want to get back into the saddle again.



This is good advicee, GF, and it is probable that what she wants now is not what she will want a few months down the road. Don't go running away, just take your time.

Chip R
12-17-2006, 05:35 PM
Separated does not mean divorced. Until that divorce is final, it's possible she could go back to her husband. And then you are going to get hurt. And the rebound thing too. If you are intent on giving her a gift, flowers may be a good gift. They are beautiful but not permanant.

Spring~Fields
12-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Well GF, I'm kinda in this situation right now, in the advanced stages, in that the two of us jumped, and now things are really complicated and messy.
I have to agree with Ltlabner when he says to be cautious. I wish I would have...

Caveat emptor, yes, buyer beware!!

GriffeyFan
12-17-2006, 05:46 PM
Am I a total jerk, but only going by the facts given, I think I would keep a wide birth and avoid this potential relationship for a while? Giving her a gift, especially considering all of the hinting, only opens the door for more to follow.

Sorry to be a wetblanket, GF, but I'd be cautious of jumping into a serious relationship with anybody who is just getting out of a failed marriage. The shortness of the marriage, and that they've been seperated are certinally extinuating circumstances, but I'd rather she take some time to figure out what happened, deal with any issues she might be having due to the failed marriage, etc. Maybe she is amazingly well adjusted, but most people have baggage from a situation like that.

While your intentions to only express your support for her are admirable, if she indicates that she wants something more serrious (and she's already hinting like mad) would you only keep it friendly for the length of time you felt she needed or would you be tempted to let things happen right away?

I'd rather go through the heartache of fighting the urge to blurt out you're crazy about her, than the agony of finding out you are Mr. Rebound Guy.

Just my $.02. Like I said, I'm probably Mr Stick in the Mud but that's my take.

You're not being a jerk at all. I agree with most of the latter posts. I 100% plan on being very cautious with this situation.

Like I said in my original post:

"I think there is a potential for us but I know that window might not be open until several months down the road. For now, I just want her to know that I'm here. She's a very smart girl though and I'm sure she already knew I liked her."

That's why I just want to get something very simple...probably something along the lines of a card and maybe flowers or something else like that. I don't want to come on too strong. I know she's not going to want to start something right away and I think that's good because it probably would be a rebound situation.

As far as the post referring to an office romance, that can be true but we have over 300 employees on the floor we work on and we do work on different teams so I don't think that will be a problem.

savafan
12-17-2006, 05:51 PM
In that case, I suggest flowers. They've never served me wrong.

Trust me when I say sending a Christmas card to a girl that you don't know is Jewish is a very bad idea though!

wheels
12-17-2006, 06:49 PM
I once made fortune cookies for a chick. Even put 'em in a little carryout chinese thing.

That worked out really well.

In your case, though....You'd be well served to do something simple and thoughtful. If she's a reader you could find a cool old book and write something witty in it.

Do something innocent, but something that distinguishes you as the interesting cat you are.

Awwww......Beginnings are so cool.

Jpup
12-17-2006, 07:28 PM
take her back to your place, tie her up...

nevermind.:D

Ltlabner
12-17-2006, 07:29 PM
Awwww......Beginnings are so cool.

Please turn in one of your man cards imediatley.

:p:

CougarQuest
12-17-2006, 08:06 PM
Caveat emptor, yes, buyer beware!!


Oh, in that case, buy a condom

Spring~Fields
12-17-2006, 09:28 PM
Oh, in that case, buy a condom

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: That should take care of it. :devil:


Don’t forget the aloe in case you get your :mooner: burned if they reconcile during Christmas Holidays like a lot of couples do.

max venable
12-17-2006, 09:48 PM
Separated does not mean divorced. Until that divorce is final, it's possible she could go back to her husband. And then you are going to get hurt. And the rebound thing too.

Well said, and not only that...option "A" for her should be to reconcile with her husband. She's married. Honestly, GF, I would beg you to stay away.

Marriage is intended to be a lifelong commitment, not a temporary solution for loneliness or other emotional needs. IMO, it’s best to leave married folks to themselves to work out their differences and decide what they are going to do about the future of their marriage.

You're response would be, "Yeah, but she's getting a divorce..." But like Chip said, she's not divorced yet.

Obviously, I don't have all the facts here...but since you asked for opinions, mine is this: A relatioship with her, at this point, is "out of bounds." I know that answer will be unpopular but that's my take...so I'd keep it strictly professional.

vaticanplum
12-17-2006, 10:05 PM
Geezel God people, he didn't ask for advice on how to propose. I didn't even get that he's looking for ways to seek a long-term relationship with her. We don't know his story, we don't know her story; I don't think we're in a postition to offer relationship advice any way around here. Is a relationship really "out of bounds" here, either because of her marriage or the work thing? That's not really for us to say, and if I were this girl and found out that some people were discussing the "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" of my marriage (which they know nothing about) on a baseball message board, I don't think I'd be to pleased about it. None of that is what Griffeyfan asked for either. All he asked for is an idea for a present.

On that count: you're not dating, so I wouldn't go all out. From my perspective even flowers might be too much as flower-giving is typically rooted entirely in romantic intentions (which personally freaks me out even if I like someone romantically). So I say either a) offer to take her out for drinks or a meal (always a nice gesture, can be as casual or not as it ends up depending on conversation), or b) something personal, something she likes. You find out she likes, I dunno, small baskets, so you get her one at the drugstore. something little and thoughtful and not expensive at all.

max venable
12-17-2006, 10:13 PM
So I say either a) offer to take her out for drinks or a meal (always a nice gesture, can be as casual or not as it ends up depending on conversation), or b) something personal, something she likes. You find out she likes, I dunno, small baskets, so you get her one at the drugstore. something little and thoughtful and not expensive at all.

So help me here...your advice is for GF to take out another man's wife for drinks or a meal. Wow.

Maybe I gave too much of a dissertation. But how do I offer my opinion of "dont' get her anything" without an explanation?

He asked for opinions...I offered mine. Sorry.

GriffeyFan
12-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Well, thanks for all of the opinions (excluding the outlandish ones with the DVD, condom jokes).

I'm not going to put my whole story, her whole story etc. on here beyond what I already put. That said, I would say there's a 99% the marriage is totally over.

However, like I said a couple times already, I'm not trying to immediately pounce on this girl in any way. We were friends before, are friends now and will be friends in the future. I completely understand that the timing of any possible romantic relationship between us will probably not happen for at least a couple of months if not longer.

The question is regarding a small gift. I think vaticanplum put it best as to what I'm looking for:

...something little and thoughtful and not expensive at all

vaticanplum
12-17-2006, 10:32 PM
So help me here...your advice is for GF to take out another man's wife for drinks or a meal. Wow.

I am saying that she is in a slightly better position to determine whether she wants to accept that offer than we are.

With all due respect, max, you have no idea what state her marriage is/was in. She could far better off out of it than in it, and she may need a friend to talk to right now, and it was my impression that Griffeyfan was looking for a way to offer that to her. Thus a meal seems an appropriate way to do that. If she is not ready, she will turn it down.

Chip R
12-17-2006, 10:35 PM
The question is regarding a small gift. I think vaticanplum put it best as to what I'm looking for:

...something little and thoughtful and not expensive at all


Maybe a nice scented candle in a glass thing?

MrCinatit
12-17-2006, 10:44 PM
I was the rebound guy once - at the time, it seemed like a great idea, but turned into a remarkable disaster.
She had just broken it off with a long-time fiance, and spent the entire night of our date talking about why he sucked. Unfortunately, I was too young at the time to know what that meant - sure enough, they were back again one month later.
They divorced after six months, during which he abused her. I felt pretty bad about that, but when she bought up the idea of us picking things up again, I had to turn my back on her.

Take things very, very slowly. Even though it might seem things are over, she is not only going through a lot right now, but she will be going through a lot in the future. Some divorces can turn into very ugly events, no matter how much it seemed like they were over beforehand.
At the same time, letting her know that you are there for her is not necessarily a bad thing. And getting a gift would not necessarily be bad either - but as many have said, something small and not too outlandish would be better.
Perhaps something like a small stuffed animal that is not completely covered with hearts.

TeamBoone
12-17-2006, 11:29 PM
My advice would be jewelry. It doesnt have to be an engagement ring, but it does show interest while not being overly familiar. Maybe try and see if you can find her birthstone.



No, no, no... definitely not jewelry. Jewelry is ALWAYS considered by a woman to be a romantic and intimate gift. Definitely not appropriate in this situation.

Heath
12-17-2006, 11:31 PM
Maybe a nice scented candle in a glass thing?

Maybe some candlesticks, or a nice place setting.

Ok, let's get two!

paintmered
12-17-2006, 11:32 PM
No, no, no... definitely not jewelry. Jewelry is ALWAYS considered by a woman to be a romantic and intimate gift. Definitely not appropriate in this situation.

Agreed. That would be sending kinds of wrong messages.

Jpup
12-17-2006, 11:34 PM
a swing?:evil:

RBA
12-17-2006, 11:35 PM
My, oh my, I wasn't aware all you were women. You guys, I mean gals, hide it very well.

Yachtzee
12-17-2006, 11:39 PM
Maybe you two should play a practical joke on Dwight.

TeamCasey
12-18-2006, 07:18 AM
No flowers! No jewelry! They say/mean too much.

If it's a friendly, thinking-of-you, happy holiday gesture, give her a card and some Christmasy thing like an ornament or snowglobe or silly santa/snowmen whatever.

K.I.S.S.

(Keep it simple, stupid).

Ltlabner
12-18-2006, 07:22 AM
Geezel God people...All he asked for is an idea for a present.

VP, I don't think it's about judging the state of her marriage. I think it's all about the idea that any gift, unless very small and understated, could be interpreted as a signal of intrest instead of "I just want to help".

Also, GF amitted that he "fell for her" and thought she had all the qualities he was looking for in a woman. That's a red flag of caution that says, "you will probably do stupid things" because sometimes thats what men do when they really, really like a woman.

It[s very admriable that GF wants to help out the lady if she needs a shoulder to lean on. But if she really needs someone to help her sort through things, she ought seek that help from a professional counsler who can really help her sort through issues, not someone who's got a vested interest/alterior motives in spending time with her.

vaticanplum
12-18-2006, 07:57 AM
VP, I don't think it's about judging the state of her marriage. I think it's all about the idea that any gift, unless very small and understated, could be interpreted as a signal of intrest instead of "I just want to help".

Also, GF amitted that he "fell for her" and thought she had all the qualities he was looking for in a woman. That's a red flag of caution that says, "you will probably do stupid things" because sometimes thats what men do when they really, really like a woman.

It[s very admriable that GF wants to help out the lady if she needs a shoulder to lean on. But if she really needs someone to help her sort through things, she ought seek that help from a professional counsler who can really help her sort through issues, not someone who's got a vested interest/alterior motives in spending time with her.

That is up to her to decide. All GF was looking for was an idea for a present that was thoughtful but not over the top. And it is only if the present is too much that "ulterior motives" would be appear to be a problem.

Maybe I'm not reading into things enough, but that's how I saw it. It just seemed like everybody freaked out when all he asked for was an idea for a present...and knowing that he does like her, I got the impression that he was AFRAID he'd come on too strong and didn't want to do that given her situation. So he wanted ideas for something thoughtful but smaller.

LoganBuck
12-18-2006, 08:04 AM
I asked my wife for you, and she said if you are doing gifts, a nice candle would work nicely. Chicks dig candles, and it is something you might give a friend. But she would also think about it everytime she lit it. Just don't buy a fragrance that repulses her.

My less sensible manly suggestion would be a insulated thermos mug of some kind. Chicks love coffee, tea, latte, etc... A nice insulated stainless coffee mug of some sort would be a nice no strings gift. My wife claims that she really likes the one I got her last year, she is a teacher and uses it every day.

Ltlabner
12-18-2006, 08:09 AM
Maybe I'm not reading into things enough, but that's how I saw it.

I guess that is where I was comming from. Based on what GF shared there is a lot more going on here than "let me be your buddy". That is why in my original post I advised against any gift at all. I backed off of that in subsequent posts, but the more I think about it, I think I'll stick with my gut responce.

I'd say don't get her any gift at all. It just opens the door for trouble to happen. Be polite. Be nice. But offering to "be a friend" typically doesn't end in friendship when it starts with "I completely fell for her".

A couple of nights of "just talking" often leads to more than "just talking" if you know what I mean. Especially when 1 party is smitten and 1 party may be emotionally upset and is suddenly recieving positive attention. That's the grade A number 1 way to make lots of trouble and really undermine any chance for a serrious relationship to develop, IMO.

Roy Tucker
12-18-2006, 08:10 AM
Let me ask this one question. If she gave you the come-hither look and waggled her finger at you and said "come here big boy", would you go? Mmmmm?

I did this all once.

She was married, I was single. We had been friends for a couple years. She was gorgeous. She was beautiful. She was anything any man would ever want. Her marriage was foundering. I was "there for her if she ever needed anyone". We had lunches. We had talks. I was funny. I was light-hearted. I was wise. I was a good, loyal, and true friend. We had beers. I got knowing and soulful looks. I got phone calls. We had long talks into the night. I wanted to do the right thing this for her. I swore I wouldn't jeopardize her marriage. I wasn't going to jeopardize any future relationship we may have. I was going to "give her room".

She came to my place sobbing and broken-hearted. The marriage. It was all over. I listened. We talked. We got closer. I sent her away. Once. The trouble was, she came over to my place twice. She beckoned me over. I went. I fell.

Angels sung, the earth moved, I found True Love. I walked on air. Fairies flew about my head. I fell so hard, it sounded like 2 SUVs colliding. A brick wall fell on me. Babe Ruth swung a bat and hit me in the head. Dave Letterman dropped me off a 5 story building and I splattered like a watermelon.

I was so head-over-heels in love, I couldn't see straight. She was my life. My love. I wanted her to have my babies. I wanted to grow old with her. Life as I knew had forever changed. It was all Forever.

Many months later, it ended. Badly. About as badly as you can envision. About as badly as you can possibly think and then a whole lot worse. And then doubled. So badly I now call it my "black period". Mostly because of the long string of Jack Daniels-induced blackouts of the sleepless nights because I lost her.

My heart was torn from my chest spurting arterial blood. It got gasoline poured on it and lit on fire. The charred hunks were cut into little pieces. Then they were stomped on. Then they were crapped on.

And then, worst of all, they were discarded and forgotten and left unloved. For she left me for another. Just like she did to her husband wit me.

My advice is to run away as fast as you possibly can and never see her again. Just like her marriage, there is a 99% chance any relationship you have will end badly. You will end up on the side of the Road of Love like a 5 day old deader than a doornail possum all bloated in the hot sun with black flies buzzing around you.

But I know you won't do that because people told me the same thing. And I said said, au contraire mon frere, I am special. I am different. *That* won't happen to *me*. I'm not that stupid. What happens to others won't happen to me. The gods won't allow it.

When all along, in my heart of hearts, I didn't want to be her friend. Why in God's name would I do all this with a beautiful and wonderful and intelligent women if I didn't want to be her lover. I'd never admit that to anyone. I wouldn't admit it to myself. But that was the bald and stupid truth of it all.

So, having said all this, I'd buy her something useful. Like a stapler.

Spring~Fields
12-18-2006, 08:42 AM
Maybe I'm not reading into things enough, but that's how I saw it. It just seemed like everybody freaked out when all he asked for was an idea for a present...and knowing that he does like her, I got the impression that he was AFRAID he'd come on too strong and didn't want to do that given her situation. So he wanted ideas for something thoughtful but smaller.


Some of us have seen and heard this several times in life from various people, expressed very much like GF has here, disclosing much more than he realizes. Some of us have been on both sides of the issue, we have witnessed it over and over again not work out well for the parties involved. There are always a set of wants and needs driving the motivations and he has not said that he is free of any wants or expectations in this as a potential interloper.

WMR
12-18-2006, 09:39 AM
Let me ask this one question. If she gave you the come-hither look and waggled her finger at you and said "come here big boy", would you go? Mmmmm?

I did this all once.

She was married, I was single. We had been friends for a couple years. She was gorgeous. She was beautiful. She was anything any man would ever want. Her marriage was foundering. I was "there for her if she ever needed anyone". We had lunches. We had talks. I was funny. I was light-hearted. I was wise. I was a good, loyal, and true friend. We had beers. I got knowing and soulful looks. I got phone calls. We had long talks into the night. I wanted to do the right thing this for her. I swore I wouldn't jeopardize her marriage. I wasn't going to jeopardize any future relationship we may have. I was going to "give her room".

She came to my place sobbing and broken-hearted. The marriage. It was all over. I listened. We talked. We got closer. I sent her away. Once. The trouble was, she came over to my place twice. She beckoned me over. I went. I fell.

Angels sung, the earth moved, I found True Love. I walked on air. Fairies flew about my head. I fell so hard, it sounded like 2 SUVs colliding. A brick wall fell on me. Babe Ruth swung a bat and hit me in the head. Dave Letterman dropped me off a 5 story building and I splattered like a watermelon.

I was so head-over-heels in love, I couldn't see straight. She was my life. My love. I wanted her to have my babies. I wanted to grow old with her. Life as I knew had forever changed. It was all Forever.

Many months later, it ended. Badly. About as badly as you can envision. About as badly as you can possibly think and then a whole lot worse. And then doubled. So badly I now call it my "black period". Mostly because of the long string of Jack Daniels-induced blackouts of the sleepless nights because I lost her.

My heart was torn from my chest spurting arterial blood. It got gasoline poured on it and lit on fire. The charred hunks were cut into little pieces. Then they were stomped on. Then they were crapped on.

And then, worst of all, they were discarded and forgotten and left unloved. For she left me for another. Just like she did to her husband wit me.

My advice is to run away as fast as you possibly can and never see her again. Just like her marriage, there is a 99% chance any relationship you have will end badly. You will end up on the side of the Road of Love like a 5 day old deader than a doornail possum all bloated in the hot sun with black flies buzzing around you.

But I know you won't do that because people told me the same thing. And I said said, au contraire mon frere, I am special. I am different. *That* won't happen to *me*. I'm not that stupid. What happens to others won't happen to me. The gods won't allow it.

When all along, in my heart of hearts, I didn't want to be her friend. Why in God's name would I do all this with a beautiful and wonderful and intelligent women if I didn't want to be her lover. I'd never admit that to anyone. I wouldn't admit it to myself. But that was the bald and stupid truth of it all.

So, having said all this, I'd buy her something useful. Like a stapler.

99% of guys will not spend time working on a chick if they don't wanna get with her.

I always laugh when I hear a girl say, "He just wants to be friends."

Haha, trust me, he doesn't.

Red Leader
12-18-2006, 09:47 AM
Get her nothing. If you must, get her a Christmas card and say something like "hope you have a great Christmas and hoping the best for your New Year."
That's what a friend would do.

Let her go. Continue to be her friend if you'd like, but don't have any expectations of anything. She needs time to get away from this. You may have to be witness to her next relationship to see how that works out. I'm guessing it will end similar to how her current marriage is ending. At that point, if that's not a big enough flag for you to stay away from her, then you're in trouble.

oneupper
12-18-2006, 09:49 AM
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

Lord Tennyson

TeamCasey
12-18-2006, 11:34 AM
So, having said all this, I'd buy her something useful. Like a stapler.

That was so beautiful. :laugh:

Red Leader
12-18-2006, 11:48 AM
That was so beautiful. :laugh:

That was beautiful. Roy is wise.

15fan
12-18-2006, 12:29 PM
If you're looking for a life mate, then move on.

But

If she & her husband sign the papers to end it and she's looking for someone to stay up all night and, ahem, talk...

Then by all means stay up and, ahem...talk...with her all night long.

As long as it's understood that by, um, talking all night, there's no reason to have any more of those conversations.

It's all about the talking on that one night. Then it's over & done, and both of you will move on to have...conversations...with others.

;)

westofyou
12-18-2006, 12:33 PM
And then, worst of all, they were discarded and forgotten and left unloved. For she left me for another. Just like she did to her husband wit me.

My advice is to run away as fast as you possibly can and never see her again. Just like her marriage, there is a 99% chance any relationship you have will end badly. You will end up on the side of the Road of Love like a 5 day old deader than a doornail possum all bloated in the hot sun with black flies buzzing around you.

Run, rebound love is not the foundation of stability.

savafan
12-18-2006, 12:52 PM
I don't know GF...you've known her for a while, and you felt a connection with her before she was married, right? Maybe she felt that connection too...maybe.

I don't mean to toss aside what everyone else has said, but sometimes the right person comes along at the wrong time.

CougarQuest
12-18-2006, 01:31 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: That should take care of it. :devil:


Don’t forget the aloe in case you get your :mooner: burned if they reconcile during Christmas Holidays like a lot of couples do.



Six words: A sheet with a hole in it.


:lol

MrsHammer
12-18-2006, 01:55 PM
I tend to agree with the person who suggested maybe a nice candle set. You can get candle gift sets that I think would be more appropriate than jewelry or flowers. I agree that most women see both of those as 'more than friend' gifts. I would wait a while before going there. As far as the office romance thing, I met my husband at work and we dated for 2 years and have been married almost 3 years and we still work for the same company. I think it is very manageable as long as you don't work closely together or as long as you are not in a situation where one is the other's supervisor, etc. My husband and I are in different departments and have no work connection other than being in the same physical building every day.

savafan
12-18-2006, 02:20 PM
My husband and I are in different departments and have no work connection other than being in the same physical building every day.

Saves on gas, I'm sure. :thumbup:

Yachtzee
12-18-2006, 04:24 PM
So, having said all this, I'd buy her something useful. Like a stapler.

I'd do the opposite. I'd buy her something useless, like "A Barrel of Monkeys."

But then, I'm a big dork.

SunDeck
12-18-2006, 07:31 PM
I'm no lady (I heard that, Chip), but neither are most of the guys who posted here, so...

I say do the honorable thing and stay out of this relationship until it's over. Be a good guy to her, be compassionate, supportive, friendly, all the things you have probably been doing all along. If it works out for you then so much the better. But, all of those things pale in comparison to the gravity of the times they have shared with one another. You have to respect that bond, brother because there isn't a whole lot you can do to combat it. Small talk around the water cooler, laughs across the aisle, the accidental rub against her...wait, I've said too much...these are all nice things and there is no reason you shouldn't keep being nice.
But when it comes to gift giving, I can't help but to think how it would seem to the guy she's still with. He may be a creep for all I know, but it just seems like trying to slide in under the tag if you ask me.

Super_Barry11
12-19-2006, 02:07 AM
Maybe you two should play a practical joke on Dwight.

That's the best answer I've read so far... :laugh:

But seriously, if you really want to get her something, I like the candle idea. Very cute, but small and inexpensive. A nice gesture. :)

M2
12-19-2006, 02:36 AM
I'd listen to vaticanplum on the gift idea. Something small and quirky that she might find amusing. Flowers are nice, but ultimately they're impersonal. You could give a bouquet to anyone.

I'll echo what others have said about being the rebound guy. It won't work out. Roy covered the classic arc of these things pretty well. If you let it, it'll get way too serious way too fast and then one day it'll be over and you won't know why. If you're the type who's going to get heartbroken, then definitely stay away. Though if you're the type who can have fun while it lasts and then walk away satisfied, go for it. You'll probably be glad you sewed those oats when you're older.

I've been the rebound guy. It's fun if your expectations aren't set too high. I've also been the one on the rebound. One bit of advice from a guy who's been divorced, don't make your move until they've taken up separate domiciles and they've divvied up their belongings. I know that sounds terribly unromantic, but they're not really separated until they've done that. You stand to get the husband megapissed for moving in too quick and exes tend to go through a weird hooking up period until there's some sort of formal division (and sometimes even after that).

You probably want to avoid a situation where you call your new girlfriend and her ex answers, offering the information that she just stepped into the shower. It's a real romance squasher.

NYMoose
12-19-2006, 09:59 AM
I've been the rebound guy. It's fun if your expectations aren't set too high. I've also been the one on the rebound. One bit of advice from a guy who's been divorced, don't make your move until they've taken up separate domiciles and they've divvied up their belongings. I know that sounds terribly unromantic, but they're not really separated until they've done that. You stand to get the husband megapissed for moving in too quick and exes tend to go through a weird hooking up period until there's some sort of formal division (and sometimes even after that).

You probably want to avoid a situation where you call your new girlfriend and her ex answers, offering the information that she just stepped into the shower. It's a real romance squasher.


This is the best advice I've read. In a situation such as this, the wife needs to be on her own (and an ex) before any move on your part. Been there, I can not stress how important this is. In the mean time, you can provide friendly support as needed.

Roy Tucker
12-19-2006, 10:12 AM
One bit of advice from a guy who's been divorced, don't make your move until they've taken up separate domiciles and they've divvied up their belongings.

Ho ho. Yes indeedy.

I too have been through this exercise on both sides.

In addition to the aforementioned wet blanket phone call-shower scenario, you run the very real risk of encountering an very angry not-yet-ex-spouse who believes "there still is a chance" and didn't get the memo that it was all over.

I won't go through all the details, but lets just say I got familiar with the backseat of a police cruiser because I found my not-yet-ex-spouse in a bar with her boyfriend. He ended up in the hospital with a concussion from a Roy left hook and I ended up in court for simple assault.

Once I explained it all to the judge, he let me go with a sympathetic yet stern warning. But if had to do it all over again, I'd do the same damn thing and twice on Sunday. I knocked him clean off that bar stool into next week. Best punch I've ever thrown. Joe Frazier would have been proud. Even the ex was impressed and called her boyfriend a wuss.

But she married him anyway. :(

WMR
12-19-2006, 12:18 PM
Ho ho. Yes indeedy.

I too have been through this exercise on both sides.

In addition to the aforementioned wet blanket phone call-shower scenario, you run the very real risk of encountering an very angry not-yet-ex-spouse who believes "there still is a chance" and didn't get the memo that it was all over.

I won't go through all the details, but lets just say I got familiar with the backseat of a police cruiser because I found my not-yet-ex-spouse in a bar with her boyfriend. He ended up in the hospital with a concussion from a Roy left hook and I ended up in court for simple assault.

Once I explained it all to the judge, he let me go with a sympathetic yet stern warning. But if had to do it all over again, I'd do the same damn thing and twice on Sunday. I knocked him clean off that bar stool into next week. Best punch I've ever thrown. Joe Frazier would have been proud. Even the ex was impressed and called her boyfriend a wuss.

But she married him anyway. :(

Roy you are the man.

M2
12-19-2006, 12:32 PM
Great story Roy. Scavenging is a serious man sin.

You'll be happy to know that my phone etiquette put the kibosh on the ex's rebound guy. He'd even introduced her to his parents within a month of our separation (and before I insisted, against her protests, that it was time to file for no-fault).

GF, let me timeline this so that you can get a little taste of how twisted these things get (and this is mild): the ex and I separate, divorce has not been put on the table, I move a few states away, new guy pounces within a week (unbeknownst to me), as far as he knows things are going great with the new squeeze, she keeps asking me to come back, the ex and I hook up over Thanksgiving (because we were alone in the same room together and neither of us felt like talking), he introduces her to his family, I decide I like separation so much that we should make it permanent, she tries to talk me out of it yet finally relents, new guy essentially moves in with her and suggests he not renew the lease on his place when it expires, she mentions new guy to me around this time, ex visits family and invites me over for lunch, I come over, lunch never happens, new guy calls just to say hi, I answer because I've got a friend who's supposed to be calling with the details of where we're meeing in NYC later that evening (this is pre cell phones) and because the ex is indeed in the shower, new guy sounds like a two ton anvil just got dropped on his heart, I tell the ex the new guy called, she's non-chalant about it, she asks if I'm sure I want to leave quite yet, we go for another round, I bid her adieu (last time I saw her in fact), when she gets back home new guy insists he forgives her, supposedly she gets tired of his jealous and wounded act so she starts seeing another guy, new guy gets seamlessly dumped for new guy v2, divorce goes through, ex has moved and now is onto new guy v3.

Moral of the story is that both parties usually have contributed heavily to a failed marriage. The temptation is to think you'll be dating the blameless one, the one whose only fault was falling in love with the wrong person. What you'll get to discover the hard way is exactly how untrue that line of thinking tends to be on top of whatever post-divorce weirdness has set in.

Ltlabner
12-19-2006, 01:43 PM
Moral of the story is that both parties usually have contributed heavily to a failed marriage. The temptation is to think you'll be dating the blameless one, the one whose only fault was falling in love with the wrong person. What you'll get to discover the hard way is exactly how untrue that line of thinking tends to be on top of whatever post-divorce weirdness has set in.

Great point M2. GF, this is something to consider here. It's so easy to fall into the trap that the dude was a major league jerk but the woman was pure and innocent. Especially when the woman is the apple of your eye. ALL people have faults and baggage and very rarely is one partner totally faultless in the failure of a marriage. People are reading this and thinking, "well, duh Ltlabner" but when the hormones are pumping, and a person is taken with someone else it's easy to lose sight of that small detail.

You are probably thinking "all I wanted was some gift advice for crying out loud" but it sounds like many of us have been down this road and been burned GF. We (or at least most of us) aren't trying to pee pee on your barbeque but rather caution you against making the mistakes some of us have already made.

max venable
12-19-2006, 04:02 PM
I'd lay serious money on GF pursuing the relatiionship in spite of all the advice. When you're smitten (like it sounds like he is), you're smitten. And your tendency is to ignore sound advice...in fact it doesn't even make sense from your twisted vantage point. My guess is that GF thinks most of us are "morons" and we don't understand all the dynamics in play here. But we do understand principles. And principles are principles no matter what. If you violate them, you'll suffer the consequences. I guarantee, GF is thinking, "yeah, but that's you guys...this situation is different...I can handle this...geez...sorry I even asked about a gift idea..."

What I'm sayin' is that we always lean toward seeing things the way we want to see them. We rationalize, justify, and tell ourselves what it is that we want to believe. Now, I'm not saying this is true of GF...obviously I don't know all the stuff that's in play here...but it's true of most of us.

Johnny Footstool
12-19-2006, 06:04 PM
All this gloom and doom, but no one is considering that maybe GF is the reason this girl's marriage failed.

My sister-in-law was in a bad marriage to a real jackass. She met a great guy at work, divorced the jackass, and ended up happily married to the new guy.

And even if this is just a rebound thing, I say go for it. Don't be afraid of getting hurt. You'll survive it.

Spring~Fields
12-19-2006, 07:35 PM
I'd lay serious money on GF pursuing the relatiionship in spite of all the advice. When you're smitten (like it sounds like he is), you're smitten. And your tendency is to ignore sound advice...in fact it doesn't even make sense from your twisted vantage point. My guess is that GF thinks most of us are "morons" and we don't understand all the dynamics in play here. But we do understand principles. And principles are principles no matter what. If you violate them, you'll suffer the consequences. I guarantee, GF is thinking, "yeah, but that's you guys...this situation is different...I can handle this...geez...sorry I even asked about a gift idea..."

What I'm sayin' is that we always lean toward seeing things the way we want to see them. We rationalize, justify, and tell ourselves what it is that we want to believe. Now, I'm not saying this is true of GF...obviously I don't know all the stuff that's in play here...but it's true of most of us.

I say save this in the archive.

A year from now GF can send those of us that were right a gift of flowers and candy, (because we meant well, well except cougar with his plastic device :eek: ) and the ones here that got him into trouble they can pay for his therapy :bang: errrr ummm they can get a token candle for trying.

RedsBaron
12-19-2006, 09:28 PM
I'd lay serious money on GF pursuing the relatiionship in spite of all the advice. When you're smitten (like it sounds like he is), you're smitten. And your tendency is to ignore sound advice...in fact it doesn't even make sense from your twisted vantage point. My guess is that GF thinks most of us are "morons" and we don't understand all the dynamics in play here. But we do understand principles. And principles are principles no matter what. If you violate them, you'll suffer the consequences. I guarantee, GF is thinking, "yeah, but that's you guys...this situation is different...I can handle this...geez...sorry I even asked about a gift idea..."

What I'm sayin' is that we always lean toward seeing things the way we want to see them. We rationalize, justify, and tell ourselves what it is that we want to believe. Now, I'm not saying this is true of GF...obviously I don't know all the stuff that's in play here...but it's true of most of us.

Yep. I wish GF well, but the odds are against a happy ending.

vaticanplum
12-19-2006, 10:57 PM
This thread is better than a soap opera.

I've not read one invalid opinion on this thread yet, but I feel for GriffeyFan. Poor dude just asked for a Christmas gift idea, for crying out loud. I've heard the same question from about five people this week.

But all of these stories...fascinating and with lessons all and I would love to hear more...but only contributes to my experience that in relationships -- not CRUSHES, but relationships -- men are ONE HUNDRED GAZILLION times more analytical than women. A happy ending? Predictions for a year from now? Principles? Divorce and fistfights? Dude is essentially looking for an appropriate greeting card! Y'all make my head hurt.

GriffeyFan
12-19-2006, 11:30 PM
Wow, this has been an interesting thread....

TUESDAY NITE UPDATE:

Well, I haven't officially decided what to do but I'm leaning towards a card and maybe a candle or small Christmas ornament/figurine.

As far as the bigger picture discussed on here, I also haven't decided whether I will pursue her as more than a friend. Do I want to? Of course I do. But I'm going to see how this plays in the coming weeks. I mean the divorce isn't even official. Even if it was, I'm not going to jump in and say "ok, he's gone, let's go." I'm willing to be patient if I think it can turn into something.

That said, I also don't want to be the guy with the crush who's hanging on for something that's never going to happen or if I'm the person in the relationship who's making all the effort. I mean this will probably have to play out over more than a few weeks.

I'll see how the reception of this little Christmas gift goes first......

Ravenlord
12-19-2006, 11:37 PM
Wow, this has been an interesting thread....

TUESDAY NITE UPDATE:

Well, I haven't officially decided what to do but I'm leaning towards a card and maybe a candle or small Christmas ornament/figurine.

As far as the bigger picture discussed on here, I also haven't decided whether I will pursue her as more than a friend. Do I want to? Of course I do. But I'm going to see how this plays in the coming weeks. I mean the divorce isn't even official. Even if it was, I'm not going to jump in and say "ok, he's gone, let's go." I'm willing to be patient if I think it can turn into something.

That said, I also don't want to be the guy with the crush who's hanging on for something that's never going to happen or if I'm the person in the relationship who's making all the effort. I mean this will probably have to play out over more than a few weeks.

I'll see how the reception of this little Christmas gift goes first......

good move. patience shall be your friend.

RFS62
12-20-2006, 07:00 AM
A wise man learns from his mistakes.

A very wise man learns from other peoples mistakes.

I was neither when I was GF's age, I'm afraid.

It's hard to believe how much good advice I've ignored over the years.

Jpup
12-20-2006, 07:09 AM
I'll say this, a man and a woman can not, "just be friends." That does not happen. Ever.

Roy Tucker
12-20-2006, 07:23 AM
A wise man learns from his mistakes.

A very wise man learns from other peoples mistakes.

I was neither when I was GF's age, I'm afraid.

It's hard to believe how much good advice I've ignored over the years.

Yeah, my early attempts at relationships were pretty much flaming disasters.

As one friend put it, "Roy, I'd like to say "may your path be straight and narrow", but so far, it's been big and wide and crooked while cutting a big swath like Sherman to the sea".

A candle and a card is nice, but I still like my stapler idea.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/action/large/21163eb.jpg

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 08:19 AM
I'll say this, a man and a woman can not, "just be friends." That does not happen. Ever.

Wasn't there a movie about that....or something?

TeamCasey
12-20-2006, 08:27 AM
I'll say this, a man and a woman can not, "just be friends." That does not happen. Ever.

Yes they can! I've probably had more guy friends than girlfriends over the years.

oneupper
12-20-2006, 09:07 AM
Wasn't there a movie about that....or something?

"When Harry Met Sally" Meg Ryan and Billy Cristal.

A Chick Flick a guy could enjoy (I liked it).

MrCinatit
12-20-2006, 09:36 AM
A candle and a card is nice, but I still like my stapler idea.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/action/large/21163eb.jpg


I have a sudden urge to, like, buy a hundred staplers, despite the fact I have no use for one and that I could not afford a hundred staplers.

BTW, VP, I believe the word you are searching for to describe us is "neurotic."
Not to be confused with "neutored." You don't want to go there.

M2
12-20-2006, 10:03 AM
This thread is better than a soap opera.

I've not read one invalid opinion on this thread yet, but I feel for GriffeyFan. Poor dude just asked for a Christmas gift idea, for crying out loud. I've heard the same question from about five people this week.

But all of these stories...fascinating and with lessons all and I would love to hear more...but only contributes to my experience that in relationships -- not CRUSHES, but relationships -- men are ONE HUNDRED GAZILLION times more analytical than women. A happy ending? Predictions for a year from now? Principles? Divorce and fistfights? Dude is essentially looking for an appropriate greeting card! Y'all make my head hurt.

You've dated guys who think about relationships? I've always been under the impression that we just kind of do random, hormone-induced stuff and then look back on it a few years down the road and shake our heads ... or laugh.

Roy Tucker
12-20-2006, 10:23 AM
You've dated guys who think about relationships? I've always been under the impression that we just kind of do random, hormone-induced stuff and then look back on it a few years down the road and shake our heads ... or laugh.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. My wife would get a kick out of me being accused of being analytical in the ways or love.

Men have brains in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. It's usually the Southern one that governs these kinds of behaviors. And the pitch woo degree of sophistication is on the level of caveman conk woman on head with big club and drag away by hair ugh.

westofyou
12-20-2006, 11:17 AM
men are ONE HUNDRED GAZILLION times more analytical than women.

Funniest thing I have ever read... seriously this is a bizzaro world statement, so untrue in the world I inhabit that I can't even think where to start.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 11:19 AM
I just had a thought.

Man, I bet my wife would like a stapler.

paintmered
12-20-2006, 12:13 PM
I just had a thought.

Man, I bet my wife would like a stapler.

These are teh cool.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/front/my-stapler.jpg

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 12:18 PM
These are teh cool.



I'm going to be the hit of the Holidays this year. I'm going to out do you all. I'm going to get her *audience roars* a Tapler....

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/a/ae/Tapler2.png



OOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!!!!!

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 02:05 PM
Yes they can! I've probably had more guy friends than girlfriends over the years.

Seriously, jpup, are you saying that you don't have a single female friend?

M2
12-20-2006, 02:22 PM
I think what jpup is saying is that women have fewer guy friends than they think they do.

If a guy is single and friends with a female, chances are he's more than willing to be more than friends. It's kind of pragmatic when you get right down to it. Why not date someone you get along with?

Now, if a guy is coupled up then I can buy into the friends thing (though guys being guys, you'd probably find many are willing to operate outside their current attachments).

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 02:27 PM
I think what jpup is saying is that women have fewer guy friends than they think they do.

If a a guy is single and friends with a female, chances are he's more than willing to be more than friends. It's kind of pragmatic when you get right down to it. Why not date someone you get along with?

Now, if a guy is coupled up then I can buy into the friends thing (though guys being guys, you'd probably find many are willing to operate outside their current attachments).


I agree with all of this, but I bolded the part at the end for emphasis. If the guy is in a relationship, even married, and can claim that a girl is one of his "good" friends, that's a mirage. He's trying to "operate outside [his] current attachment" Friends talk in passing. They catch up with each other every now and then. If it's an everyday friendship type deal, that guy wants more than friendship.

Falls City Beer
12-20-2006, 02:37 PM
Funniest thing I have ever read... seriously this is a bizzaro world statement, so untrue in the world I inhabit that I can't even think where to start.

I agree completely. My marriage would have failed long ago if I were the Woody Allen of Love that my wife is. Every single nuance, whisper, blurted word of my past behavior is emblazoned on her memory cells; I've forgotten every fight we've ever had.

My libido has cooled enough that I'm able to have women friends, however. Or should I say, professional acquaintances.

Roy Tucker
12-20-2006, 02:39 PM
Harry Burns: No, no, no, I never said that... Yes, that's right, they can't be friends. Unless both of them are involved with other people, then they can... This is an amendment to the earlier rule. If the two people are in relationships, the pressure of possible involvement is lifted... That doesn't work either, because what happens then is, the person you're involved with can't understand why you need to be friends with the person you're just friends with. Like it means something is missing from the relationship and why do you have to go outside to get it? And when you say "No, no, no it's not true, nothing is missing from the relationship," the person you're involved with then accuses you of being secretly attracted to the person you're just friends with, which you probably are. I mean, come on, who the hell are we kidding, let's face it. Which brings us back to the earlier rule before the amendment, which is men and women can't be friends.

Puffy
12-20-2006, 02:42 PM
I've read this whole thing and I've come to one conclusion for you GriffeyFan. The rebound guy gets sex.

Use that advice wisely.

Super_Barry11
12-20-2006, 02:42 PM
I'll say this, a man and a woman can not, "just be friends." That does not happen. Ever.

I've heard this many times before, and I understand why it's said. However, it confuses me a bit, since my best friend is a guy. We've been super close for almost four years, and we make time to talk at least for a little bit every day, even though he still lives in Cleveland and I live in California now. Nothing even slightly "romantic" has ever happened between us. We're each other's number one source for support and advice, and we really are "just friends." I have no desire to date him, and he's said (numerous time :laugh: ) that he would never date me.

I guess the point of this post is that it CAN happen, at least occasionally. :p:

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 02:45 PM
I've heard this many times before, and I understand why it's said. However, it confuses me a bit, since my best friend is a guy. We've been super close for almost four years, and we make time to talk at least for a little bit every day, even though he still lives in Cleveland and I live in California now. Nothing even slightly "romantic" has ever happened between us. We're each other's number one source for support and advice, and we really are "just friends." I have no desire to date him, and he's said (numerous time :laugh: ) that he would never date me.

I guess the point of this post is that it CAN happen, at least occasionally. :p:


That guy is a liar.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 02:46 PM
I've read this whole thing and I've come to one conclusion for you GriffeyFan. The rebound guy gets sex.

Use that advice wisely.

As always, I appreciate your simplicity, Puffy.

Nice summarization.

KittyDuran
12-20-2006, 02:47 PM
I've heard this many times before, and I understand why it's said. However, it confuses me a bit, since my best friend is a guy. We've been super close for almost four years, and we make time to talk at least for a little bit every day, even though he still lives in Cleveland and I live in California now. Nothing even slightly "romantic" has ever happened between us. We're each other's number one source for support and advice, and we really are "just friends." I have no desire to date him, and he's said (numerous time :laugh: ) that he would never date me.

I guess the point of this post is that it CAN happen, at least occasionally. :p:Hmm... considering how cute you are SB - the guy has super control! :eek:

Falls City Beer
12-20-2006, 02:47 PM
That guy is a liar.

I used to think that way too. But I have two or three women friends that I have zero desire to get physical with. Absolutely zero. I have no way of knowing if that feeling is mutual on their end, but I suspect it is.

Roy Tucker
12-20-2006, 02:49 PM
I agree completely. My marriage would have failed long ago if I were the Woody Allen of Love that my wife is. Every single nuance, whisper, blurted word of my past behavior is emblazoned on her memory cells; I've forgotten every fight we've ever had.

My libido has cooled enough that I'm able to have women friends, however. Or should I say, professional acquaintances.

My wife is the same way.

There have been times when we've been talking, fighting, whatever and I say something. Something wrong. As the words come out of my mouth and start to travel through space, another part of my brain says "nooooooooooooo". And I want to reach out into the space between us and intercept those words that are already in the air and travelling towards my wife's ears.

Because that other part of my brain has already parsed the words and gauged their effect upon my wife and it's going to be bad. Read bad. Like, sleep with her back to me for a month kind of bad. Like paying for it for weeks kind of bad. Like, she'll never forget it and bring it up years later as an example of the insensitive clod I am kind of bad.

I try reach out and pull the words back, but its too late. They are received at my wife's ears. She hears them. She understands them. And then I see the look on her face that registers in a millisecond that everything (and more) that the other side of my brain said was going to come true is going to happen. You can bet your mortgage on it. And I am going to pay for it. Big time. Holy crap am I going to regret this.

And I say "no, I didn't mean it, stop, you didn't hear that, it was the other stupid person that lives in my head and I can't control him, it's not my fault".

But it's ... all .... too .... late. The damage is done.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 02:49 PM
I used to think that way too. But I have two or three women friends that I have zero desire to get physical with. Absolutely zero. I have no way of knowing if that feeling is mutual on their end, but I suspect it is.

We're talking about two people that have just recently graduated college here and one that I can confirm is an attractive, smart woman.

He's a liar.

Puffy
12-20-2006, 02:49 PM
Again, not to nitpick - but a guy can be friends with a girl if he is not attracted to her. Although alcohol can blow that too. But guys in general cannot be friends with a girl he is attracted to - sex will always be his ultimate goal.

I know girls don't believe that, or say its BS - but take it from an ugly guy: we always have larger, nakedness involving motives.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 02:50 PM
I used to think that way too. But I have two or three women friends that I have zero desire to get physical with. Absolutely zero. I have no way of knowing if that feeling is mutual on their end, but I suspect it is.

That's just what happens to old people though.

Falls City Beer
12-20-2006, 02:51 PM
We're talking about two people that have just recently graduated college here and one that I can confirm is an attractive, smart woman.

He's a liar.

Okay. That's a fair stipulation.

Falls City Beer
12-20-2006, 02:53 PM
That's just what happens to old people though.

Ouch. :help:

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 02:55 PM
Ouch. :help:

:D It is a joke. I myself am aging by the second on all the musical threads on this forum.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 02:55 PM
Hello,
Ok, so here's where I need your advice. I want to get her a little something for Christmas...something that just says "I'm thinking of you" or "I'm here if you need to talk." I don't want it to be too much. I want it to be a friendly gesture, not a "courting" gesture if you know what I mean.



Was this the question that started this thread? I had to click back to make sure.

GF, you may have only asked for one simple thing, but we've pretty much laid out advice for the rest of your life here...

Clark, that's the gift that keeps on giving the whole year....

Falls City Beer
12-20-2006, 02:58 PM
:D It is a joke. I myself am aging by the second on all the musical threads on this forum.

It only hurts cuz it's true. :)

Spring~Fields
12-20-2006, 02:59 PM
This thread is better than a soap opera.

Dude is essentially looking for an appropriate greeting card! Y'all make my head hurt.

Hey someone has to try to protect the young and impressionable GF from the wolfettes out there, it is a fellow Redszonians duty. ;)

gonelong
12-20-2006, 03:03 PM
This thread is better than a soap opera.

I've not read one invalid opinion on this thread yet, but I feel for GriffeyFan. Poor dude just asked for a Christmas gift idea, for crying out loud. I've heard the same question from about five people this week.

But all of these stories...fascinating and with lessons all and I would love to hear more...but only contributes to my experience that in relationships -- not CRUSHES, but relationships -- men are ONE HUNDRED GAZILLION times more analytical than women. A happy ending? Predictions for a year from now? Principles? Divorce and fistfights? Dude is essentially looking for an appropriate greeting card! Y'all make my head hurt.

Men don't even have relationships much less analyze them. We have females we want to hook up with, girlfriends, or wives.

Single men don't analyze "relationships". They analyze cause & effect in an attempt to increase the frequency and quality of their "encounters".

Married men will also do this to some degree, but they also weigh the effort against a cost/benefit calculation.

Analysis is reserved for sports and financial concerns.

GL

Falls City Beer
12-20-2006, 03:04 PM
My wife is the same way.

There have been times when we've been talking, fighting, whatever and I say something. Something wrong. As the words come out of my mouth and start to travel through space, another part of my brain says "nooooooooooooo". And I want to reach out into the space between us and intercept those words that are already in the air and travelling towards my wife's ears.

Because that other part of my brain has already parsed the words and gauged their effect upon my wife and it's going to be bad. Read bad. Like, sleep with her back to me for a month kind of bad. Like paying for it for weeks kind of bad. Like, she'll never forget it and bring it up years later as an example of the insensitive clod I am kind of bad.

I try reach out and pull the words back, but its too late. They are received at my wife's ears. She hears them. She understands them. And then I see the look on her face that registers in a millisecond that everything (and more) that the other side of my brain said was going to come true is going to happen. You can bet your mortgage on it. And I am going to pay for it. Big time. Holy crap am I going to regret this.

And I say "no, I didn't mean it, stop, you didn't hear that, it was the other stupid person that lives in my head and I can't control him, it's not my fault".

But it's ... all .... too .... late. The damage is done.

That scenario is almost tangible it's so accurate.

M2
12-20-2006, 03:10 PM
I love this thread.


I've read this whole thing and I've come to one conclusion for you GriffeyFan. The rebound guy gets sex.

Use that advice wisely.

Puffy, a man who keeps his eye on the prize.


I've heard this many times before, and I understand why it's said. However, it confuses me a bit, since my best friend is a guy. We've been super close for almost four years, and we make time to talk at least for a little bit every day, even though he still lives in Cleveland and I live in California now. Nothing even slightly "romantic" has ever happened between us. We're each other's number one source for support and advice, and we really are "just friends." I have no desire to date him, and he's said (numerous time ) that he would never date me.

I guess the point of this post is that it CAN happen, at least occasionally.

RL's pretty well covered it, but I'm guessing if you put a move on him, he'd offer zero resistance. In fact, you could probably get him to drop his entire life in Cleveland and move to Cali in an instant if you threw him a single "Hey baby." This gets me back to a question I asked earlier, why not date someone you get along with so well? Clearly you find something about him attractive.

As a side story, a friend of mine back in the day used to be "friends" with a number of hot women who showed no interest in him. It was like a giant ego crusher. He was nuts about them and I'm sure he lost count of the number of times he said, "Oh yeah, I'm not interested in you in that way either." I figure when he looked in the mirror he imagined himself as a modern day Quasimodo.


Again, not to nitpick - but a guy can be friends with a girl if he is not attracted to her. Although alcohol can blow that too. But guys in general cannot be friends with a girl he is attracted to - sex will always be his ultimate goal.

I know girls don't believe that, or say its BS - but take it from an ugly guy: we always have larger, nakedness involving motives.

And guys almost invariably tend to be friends with women to whom they're attracted, which gets back to what Roy was saying.

On the other stuff, you're a swan, baby. A swan!


That's just what happens to old people though.

Zing! Worst part is she's 100% right.


Single men don't analyze "relationships". They analyze cause & effect in an attempt to increase the frequency and quality of their "encounters".

Married men will also do this to some degree, but they also weigh the effort against a cost/benefit calculation.

When my first marriage was slumping towards its demise, I started spending a lot more time with this woman with whom I'd been friends. More specifically, she'd been dating a friend of mine in grad school. He was cool. She was cool too. He'd just moved an hour away, but they were still technically together. Anyway, she was a hundred kinds of hot and she threw me just about every opening in the book shy of ripping her clothes off and asking, "Well, what are you going to do about it?"

I resisted not because I was married, but because I actually was friends with her semi-long distance boyfriend and even though it didn't seem to be going all that well between them, I didn't want to backstab him. Haven't talked to him in about a decade and, in retrospect, WHAT WAS I THINKING!

Jpup
12-20-2006, 03:11 PM
Yes they can! I've probably had more guy friends than girlfriends over the years.

you may have been buddies, but you were never really "friends." You don't go over to a guy friends and just hang out do you?

Jpup
12-20-2006, 03:13 PM
Seriously, jpup, are you saying that you don't have a single female friend?

I have girls that I will speak to and ask how they are doing, but we don't go out to catch a game or stay in a play video games or something. That would lead to something that would cause me to be in bad trouble with the g/f. She's the only girlfriend that I have.

M2 and RL are right, if a guy says he's just your friend, he's either:

1. gay

2. lying

M2
12-20-2006, 03:34 PM
if a guy says he's just your friend, he's either:

1. gay

2. lying

That's pretty much it. If a guy spends tons of free time hanging out with and talking to a female there's only one question another guy will ask about the situation:

Is he gay?

If it's yes, then that's self-explanatory. If it's no, then it will be assumed the friend guy is digging on the female.

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 03:35 PM
I think guys have a greater possibility of being actual friends with a woman as he gets older, settles down, etc. (post 50's say) but that's just guess work based on observation and a small sample size.

But younger than that.....I'm sure there are examples of a "true" man/woman friendship out there but trust me women of Redszone they are few and far between. The lips might be saying, "I want to be friends" but other things are thinking much, much, different and sinister toughts.

Here's a test for all those "he's my bestest freind in the whole world" man/woman friendships. Go away on a long trip together. Spend lots of time alone. Drink some wine. Go see some romatic movies together. Stay up late at night together.

Then get back to me about how it's "just friends".

NJReds
12-20-2006, 03:39 PM
That's pretty much it. If a guy spends tons of free time hanging out with and talking to a female there's only one question another guy will ask about the situation:

Is he gay?


That's the question that immediately came to mind after I read Super_Barry's post.

WMR
12-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Why else would you spend vast amounts of time "being friends" when that time could be devoted to getting laid elsewhere?

Roy Tucker
12-20-2006, 03:59 PM
I think guys have a greater possibility of being actual friends with a woman as he gets older, settles down, etc. (post 50's say) but that's just guess work based on observation and a small sample size.



Hey, let's cut out this talk about over-50 sample sizes.

:cool:

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 04:00 PM
Why else would you spend vast amounts of time "being friends" when that time could be devoted to getting laid elsewhere?

We really haven't evolved much, have we?

http://us.inmagine.com/168nwm/liquidlibrary/vl008/vl008116.jpg

halcyon
12-20-2006, 04:36 PM
I also love this thread.

And just to add to the cacophony of male voices here, I must fully agree with those above me about male/female "friendships". I've seen it in my own life, my friends' lives and watched women I know go through it. The only two guys I've ever seen who are "friends" with girls were gay.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Ok, I have two points to address. The first is this:


Funniest thing I have ever read... seriously this is a bizzaro world statement, so untrue in the world I inhabit that I can't even think where to start.

westofyou, LOOK AT THIS THREAD. GriffeyFan asked for a gift idea. He gave a little background only to set the stage for that very simple question. The women answered with gift ideas. That was related to the original question in that it answered it. The men answered with stories, warnings, advice, conclusions, on and on...they were wonderful and worthy and wise, but they were in no way related to the original question except to the analytical mind.

I suppose I am not saying that men are MORE analytical than women, and it depends on the situation too (crushes can take up years of a woman's life. Years. And they will talk about them for decades.) But I think the divide as it tends to be played up is a lot less than it's believed to be, certainly in the areas of relationships.

I will use an example -- breakups of my friends.
Number of beers I have had with my female friends dissecting relationships that have ended: about 50, 60.
Number of beers I have had with my male friends dissecting relationships that have ended: one hundred thousand million.

Typical conversation with female friend dissecting breakup: it sucks. He's a jerk. I can't believe he slept with that girl, she is fugly. I thought this was it, but I guess I was wrong. I hate all guys. Wanna meet same time tomorrow and go roller skating?
Typical conversation with male friend dissecting breakup: I can't believe this. What went wrong? What do you think I did wrong? Could I have done this differently? Oh god I'm going to be alone forever. I'm ugly. I'm stupid. No one will ever love me. And I will never love anybody again. Women have killed me. What does she really want? Why couldn't she tell me? I really did listen, I did...what's wrong with me? Did she like that other guy? I knew, I knew when I saw them run into each other on the street that there was something there. God that guy. IDo you think he's better than I am? Do you think he's BETTER than I am? Oh my god. I'm going to bash his %&)^ head in. Then I'm going to get a gym membership so I can get really buff and bash his head in again while sporting a suit of armor and flashing my superhuman weapons that I'm going to invent now that I will have lots of spare time because women are evil. Can we meet at the same time tomorrow and go buy all of Morrissey's records because my old ones are too scratched up? Can we drink until we pass out again? Can we have this conversation every single time I see you until I have a new girlfriend?

And I love them for it, I do. But seriously, look at this thread. Look at the entirety of pop music and most of art and literature for crying out loud.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 05:23 PM
Ok, I have two points to address. The first is this:




What was the other point? ;) :laugh:

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 05:24 PM
GriffeyFan asked for a gift idea. He gave a little background only to set the stage for that very simple question.

But that's the point VP. Based on what GF shared, it's not a smiple question because there was far more sub-plot going on tha "I just wanna be a swell guy".

The question, and the subject in question, is far more complicated than "should I get a lavender or vanilla nut scented votive".

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 05:25 PM
The question, and the subject in question, is far more complicated than "should I get a lavender or vanilla nut scented votive".

And my point is that it's NOT on the surface. It's only that complicated to someone who bothers to analyze it.

Oh god, I'm analyzing analysis.

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 05:28 PM
And my point is that it's NOT on the surface. It's only that complicated to someone who bothers to analyze it.

Oh god, I'm analyzing analysis.

Well, I guess we can start parsing what "analysis" means because it doesn't take a great deal of dective work to see where this is going. We're not talking freud here. :)

EDIT: See Cyclones post below for indepth analysis.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 05:28 PM
What was the other point? ;) :laugh:

Just a note here that my wife probably would have smacked me for saying this. ;)

Cyclone792
12-20-2006, 05:29 PM
Why else would you spend vast amounts of time "being friends" when that time could be devoted to getting laid elsewhere?

In one sentence, that's the perfect summary.

Seriously, there's very few and actually very specific reasons why straight guys with at least a partial backbone become "friends" with any type of girl. They can be summarized in the following manner:

Guy wants to pursue a relationship or get in the pants of that specific girl he's friends with.
Guy is interested in meeting his "friend's girlfriends" for purposes of pursuing a relationship or getting into the pants of one his "friend's friends".

That's it; the list goes no further than that.

Number one is self-explanatory, because if a guy has a serious jones for the girl he's friends with, then he's possibly going to try the "being friends" avenue if he thinks it could be successful. If he's continually friends with that girl for a long period of time and hoping to land something more, but always failing, then he's probably found himself relegated to the "nice guy" role. That's the guy who's the quasi-boyfriend. He's the "acting boyfriend," but not the boyfriend. He's the guy that girls always say, "He's a nice guy, but ... " He's the guy who typically gets walked all over.

Number two is a bit more tricky, however, but it makes perfect sense when one thinks about it. If you're a guy, what's one great way to meet new girls? Hang out with girls. Girls, even ones who claim to have lots of guy friends, also typically hang out with other girls periodically.

Now this will probably come off as shallow, crude, and perhaps even offensive. But sooner or later all guys figure this out, and guys also know exactly how other guys operate. This isn't being analytical about it, in fact, guys are this way by nature; they're like this without any rationale thought process churning away. Being "friends" with a girl is a networking avenue for guys and not much else. Become "friends" with a specific girl, and then attempt to meet all her friends as quickly as possible. Then meet all her friends' friends, and so on and so on.

For girls, this is rather simple. If a guy is interested in "being friends" with you, but not pursuing you for anything, then he's likely going to have an interest in your friends. He'll inquire about your friends, any applicable relationships, who's single, who's taken, who's easy, etc. He doesn't give a crap about Jennifer, who's in a two year loving relationship with her dude. He's interested in Heather, who's hot and single while loving to mingle, and/or he's interested in Katie, who's in a rocky relationship that could end at any second, which means rebound guy possibilities open up for him.

In fact, the best girl for a guy to "be friends" with is the socialite. She's the girl who's exceptionally outgoing and who seemingly meets and acquires new girl friends every other week. She's the girl that calls the guy friend up mid-week and tells him that she's hanging out with Lauren and all of Lauren's friends on Thursday night, then she's hanging out with Dawn and all of Dawn's friends on Friday night, and then she's hanging out with Amy and all of Amy's friends on Saturday night. "Wow," he says, "I like where this can go."

Guys, via instinct, are very interested in this.

The socialite is a type of girl-feeder for guys. Guys will go hang out with his "friend" on some nights, because the avenue for meeting new girls opens up with new possibilities each time he hangs out with his friend. If a girl hangs out with the same girls over and over instead of introducing him to new girls on a regular basis, then it's less likely that a guy's interested in "being friends" and hanging out with that girl. If his "friend" isn't directly hooking him up with new potential on a consistent basis, he loses interest in hanging out with this friend and most times the "friendship" just loses steam and vanishes.

These are also the types of friendships that last for a limited period of time. Once a guy has sapped his friend's resources in his mind, he just moves on. Or, he decides it's time to move on, but before doing so he'll go all in and make a move on his friend or one of her friends. He's got nothing to lose; he's already decided he's moving on anyway ... so if it blows up, he just wipes the dust off his shoulders and walks away. Precisely around this time period is when the girl describes her new former "guy friend" as being a total jerk or any other adjectives that would be inappropriate to type. For the guy, however, if his final, all in move works, he's back in his happy mood.

Ladies, here's a test for all this. Grab a guy's cell phone and browse through his phonebook. So long as he isn't married or in a serious relationship where another girl has control over his phone, I guarantee you that you'll find it littered with random girls' phone numbers. There will be girls in there that the guy hasn't talked to in months, perhaps even years. He's dated a few, yes, but all of them? Hardly. Don't believe for a second that the rest of those girls were business relations, school project partners, or whatever else that sounds harmless. A significant portion of those numbers will be girls that the guy was "friends" with for a certain period of time in the past, but only associates with spraringly anymore, if even that.

Of course, there's also two reasons why those girls' phone numbers are still in the guy's phone. One is just flat laziness in deleting the number, but the other reason is the girl is thrown a reserve bank for the future. Guy calls girl six months later out of the blue (sometimes drunk), chats her up, sweet talks her, and tries to resume the "friendship." Time's have changed, he figures, maybe she's changed her tune toward him ... or maybe she's acquired new female friends he can pursue through her.

It's a cycle of how guys operate that's routinely spinning.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 05:34 PM
I'd like to vote for Cyclone for poster of the year. Again.

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 05:37 PM
Guy's are, by nature, hunters.

Doesn't matter if it's dinner, a companion or an oportunity for "companionship" somewhere down the road.

And one hunter can usually spot another one "in the chase".

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 05:38 PM
My second point is regarding the can men and women be friends thing. I'm a little confused by it, and I suspect that is, as usual, due to semantics. some of you say that men and women can't be "just friends". When I hear "not just friends" or "more than friends", I assume that to refer to a romantic relationship. And I don't think that's what you guys are talking about. I think you're talking about a physical relationship. I could be wrong -- see M2's point about why not date someone you get along with -- or you guys may feel differently about this between you. But I do think there is a difference between wanting to be "more than friends" and wanting to make out and beyond. The latter is a friendship with sexual tension, but it is still a friendship. It's not "more than friends". It's, well, coital friends.

Beyond that, though, yes, I do believe it is possible for men and women -- even attractive, single men and women -- to be friends and not want to sleep with each other. When Harry Met Sally is a movie, folks. In real life there are plenty of reasons why people do or do not want to sleep with each other, and there are friendships wherein hanging out really is just all it is. I'm not naive. I could probably list for you all of my guy friends that I could call up right now and have on my doorstep in an hour for activities associated with Barry White. But it isn't all of them. In fact, if I bothered to break down the numbers, I doubt it'd even be a majority.

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 05:41 PM
I could probably list for you all of my guy friends that I could call up right now and have on my doorstep in an hour for activities associated with Barry White. But it isn't all of them. In fact, if I bothered to break down the numbers, I doubt it'd even be a majority.

OK VP. What if you called up one of your non-Barry White male friends, had him over and gave him your best "come hither stare" and waggled your finger at him. Would they say "no thanks, I just like talking about art and fine dining"? That is the true test of the "I just wanna be pals" type male friend.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 05:44 PM
I'd like to vote for Cyclone for poster of the year. Again.

I believe that Cyclone, while shooting down parts of my second point, has just unequivocally proven my first point.

Ltlabner
12-20-2006, 05:47 PM
I believe that Cyclone, while shooting down parts of my second point, has just unequivocally proven my first point.

I don't think so VP. He used a lot of words but the point is simple. Guys are "friends" with women (1) because they are gay (2) they are hoping for an opportunity with said woman or (3) using association with said woman for an opportunity elsewhere.

It may seem like a heap of analysis to you, but to 99% of the men on this board it's a fact of nature. Maybe that's why it seems like all of this thought. But because men generally have a thought about that subject every 5 seconds or so it doesn't seem like that much work to us!

Dracodave
12-20-2006, 05:57 PM
It may seem like a heap of analysis to you, but to 99% of the men on this board it's a fact of nature. Maybe that's why it seems like all of this thought. But because men generally have a thought about that subject every 5 seconds or so it doesn't seem like that much work to us!


I must be in that one percentile myself then, because as far as it goes..I have a cellphone that has 17 numbers of which 6 girls whom I'm friends with, hang out with, help with their school work (Im in college), and general play the "ear" to when they get hurt or ditched.

I have a girlfriend of nearly four months, that entirely, I spend too much time with doing the "little things", enjoying coffee, walking, talking, joking and just enjoyig my time with. Sure, sex comes up..but I can take it or leave it.

westofyou
12-20-2006, 06:02 PM
I don't think so VP. He used a lot of words but the point is simple. Guys are "friends" with women (1) because they are gay (2) they are hoping for an opportunity with said woman or (3) using association with said woman for an opportunity elsewhere.

I have lots of female friends, one of my closest has been a friend for 20 years, I probably keep in touch with more female friends then male friends.

You don't have to place sex in between two people of the opposite sex to create a relationship.

pedro
12-20-2006, 06:08 PM
I have lots of female friends, one of my closest has been a friend for 20 years, I probably keep in touch with more female friends then male friends.

You don't have to place sex in between two people of the opposite sex to create a relationship.


That's because you're a chick ;)

M2
12-20-2006, 06:32 PM
My second point is regarding the can men and women be friends thing. I'm a little confused by it, and I suspect that is, as usual, due to semantics. some of you say that men and women can't be "just friends". When I hear "not just friends" or "more than friends", I assume that to refer to a romantic relationship. And I don't think that's what you guys are talking about. I think you're talking about a physical relationship. I could be wrong -- see M2's point about why not date someone you get along with -- or you guys may feel differently about this between you. But I do think there is a difference between wanting to be "more than friends" and wanting to make out and beyond. The latter is a friendship with sexual tension, but it is still a friendship. It's not "more than friends". It's, well, coital friends.

Beyond that, though, yes, I do believe it is possible for men and women -- even attractive, single men and women -- to be friends and not want to sleep with each other. When Harry Met Sally is a movie, folks. In real life there are plenty of reasons why people do or do not want to sleep with each other, and there are friendships wherein hanging out really is just all it is. I'm not naive. I could probably list for you all of my guy friends that I could call up right now and have on my doorstep in an hour for activities associated with Barry White. But it isn't all of them. In fact, if I bothered to break down the numbers, I doubt it'd even be a majority.

There's a difference between a romantic relationship and a physical relationship?

I suppose some guys think that way, but that's a rare breed. Physical doesn't have to be romantic, but romantic's got a physical component to it to be sure (even the no sex before marriage guys out there are all for copious amounts of pre-marital nookie). Either way, it's physical. Anyway, I'll bet you sell yourself short. Call up pretty much any single guy friend you've got and invite him over for some slap and tickle (assure him that it's a one night only offer) and I'd be shocked if he didn't take you up on it.

I can see where a guy might be reluctant to hook up with a female friend if he's striving to stay unattached ("... but then I'd have to date her."). If you've got a number of appealing options or if you just do well as a seat-of-your pants single, then that may be a complication you don't need. Yet even then he's more likely to think:

A) Well, we're not that close a pair of friends anyway. Might as well.

or

B) No reason to argue with when your ship comes in.

Though, to be honest, he's probably not going to think anything. We tend to do stuff. Most of what we're talking about is pure instinct. Seriously, most everything we've been talking about in this thread (at least the friends stuff) is hard-coded. We don't talk about it amongst ourselves. There's no need. We might tell an amusing anecdote which touches upon it, but our brains are on fire over women and we all know it without having to hash it out.

On that point, when you were talking about guys pouring their hearts out to you over beers, the FIRST thing that popped into my mind is that it's a combination play - it's the pity card mixed with let's get drunk. I can tell you that I've never, not once in 40 years, had a conversation like that with a guy. Then again, they're not trying to hook up with me.

SunDeck
12-20-2006, 06:37 PM
westofyou, LOOK AT THIS THREAD. GriffeyFan asked for a gift idea. He gave a little background only to set the stage for that very simple question. The women answered with gift ideas. That was related to the original question in that it answered it. The men answered with stories, warnings, advice, conclusions, on and on...they were wonderful and worthy and wise, but they were in no way related to the original question except to the analytical mind.

That's because we want to protect the tribe, but the women, they all want the same thing- to get gifts from us.
And then to talk to each other about how lame our gifts are.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 06:38 PM
Some of these points, I have no response for. Maybe my friends are just aberrations. it's possible.

KittyDuran
12-20-2006, 06:43 PM
Guy wants to pursue a relationship or get in the pants of that specific girl he's friends with.
Guy is interested in meeting his "friend's girlfriends" for purposes of pursuing a relationship or getting into the pants of one his "friend's friends".
I think many people confuse "friend" with "acquaintance" - and reading this thread that would be my problem. Even tho' I would call the people that I've met personally from Redszone "friends" that term would only apply to the women, not the men? So VP, Creek, SuperBarry, Rosie Red, the Teamsters (Boone, Casey, Morris), etc. would be "friends". But Chip, GAC, Roy, Redsland, Krono, etc. would be "acquaintances"? So that means that the person the I attend most of the Reds games with is an "acquaintance"? :confused:

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 06:43 PM
M2 -- my point on that first one was that you may want to sleep with somebody that you would never want to date.

M2
12-20-2006, 06:44 PM
Some of these points, I have no response for. Maybe my friends are just aberrations. it's possible.

Or maybe they like you differently than you think.

I'm not saying a males and females can't get along platonically, but you'd probably find most of your single male friends would be willing to upgrade the relationship if given the chance.

Our brains are on fire, all the time.

My wife often insists that she's not doing anything to send me in a testosterone frenzy. That's when I remind her she's breathing.

M2
12-20-2006, 06:45 PM
M2 -- my point on that first one was that you may want to sleep with somebody that you would never want to date.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Totally agree. Though usually guys will err on the side of sleep with the woman rather than not sleep with the woman.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 06:48 PM
Or maybe they like you differently than you think.

I'm not saying a males and females can't get along platonically, but you'd probably find most of your single male friends would be willing to upgrade the relationship if given the chance.

I honestly don't think so. I don't want to keep bringing it back to my own experience because I'm just one person, but it's all I've got...I have some very close male friends. I just think that we know each other too well. We know each other's shortcomings in relationships. We know the crap we've pulled on other people in the past. There's no surprise and no mystery beyond the physical part. There's no gut-wrenching...no chemistry, that's the word. Just because person has x, x, and x quality and you like to hang out with him/her doesn't mean it's a romantic fit.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 06:54 PM
But Chip, GAC, Roy, Redsland, Krono, etc. would be "acquaintances"? So that means that the person the I attend most of the Reds games with is an "acquaintance"? :confused:

They'd better be, because if they are all "friends" then apparently they all want to make out with you ;)

Dom Heffner
12-20-2006, 06:55 PM
There's no gut-wrenching...no chemistry, that's the word. Just because person has x, x, and x quality and you like to hang out with him/her doesn't mean it's a romantic fit.


I have several friends like this but trying to convince the world it's platonic is a useless battle.

"Men and women can't just be friends..."

Right. So every girl I get to know a little I want to date? Hardly.

I like having female friends to get a woman's perspective but most of these same friends I want to keep at arm's length. Not attracted at all to them.

dsmith421
12-20-2006, 07:03 PM
In my present situation (mid 20s, girlfriend) I am more than capable of having mutually beneficial relationships with women, not only those who are taken but also those who are single, without any direct physical attraction.

Were my situation to change, however, all bets are off. And I don't think that's too uncommon.

Cyclone792
12-20-2006, 07:34 PM
I think many people confuse "friend" with "acquaintance" - and reading this thread that would be my problem. Even tho' I would call the people that I've met personally from Redszone "friends" that term would only apply to the women, not the men? So VP, Creek, SuperBarry, Rosie Red, the Teamsters (Boone, Casey, Morris), etc. would be "friends". But Chip, GAC, Roy, Redsland, Krono, etc. would be "acquaintances"? So that means that the person the I attend most of the Reds games with is an "acquaintance"? :confused:

"Friends" is broad, and what I'm referring to is a bit different than what you're referring too, I think.

I have absolutely no idea how close some of you 'zoners are to each other ( ;) ) ... but there's probably some length of boundary in there that's pretty defined. For example, I don't think you'd call Roy up tonight to ask if he wanted to grab a quick bite to eat and then go see Rocky Balboa (don't think his wife would approve of that!), but I'm sure you do have friends or people you know where that type of scenario is commonplace. Roy probably also has friends where that scenario could occur and he'd think it'd be relatively normal, but then other types of friends where he'd go "Whaaaa?" if such a scenario happened. Those are the types of friends and relationships that I'm referring too.

Also, and I could be way off base with this, but I'd venture to guess that as people get older, and especially after they get married, they're better able to define those boundaries with the various people they associate with.

Cedric
12-20-2006, 07:46 PM
I honestly don't think so. I don't want to keep bringing it back to my own experience because I'm just one person, but it's all I've got...I have some very close male friends. I just think that we know each other too well. We know each other's shortcomings in relationships. We know the crap we've pulled on other people in the past. There's no surprise and no mystery beyond the physical part. There's no gut-wrenching...no chemistry, that's the word. Just because person has x, x, and x quality and you like to hang out with him/her doesn't mean it's a romantic fit.


I don't know what you look like. If you are attractive then those guys have a crush on you in some way. They are probably just intimidated by you or already attached to someone else. I don't think it's odd for guys to really get attracted and start to like multiple women at once. Even after marriage.

I honestly don't know many guys that are friends with hot girls they have fun with and can keep from thinking about romantic things. Most of my friends even joke around about other female friends.

Is that meatheadish and stupid? Probably.

MrCinatit
12-20-2006, 08:19 PM
I've had quite a few female friends, some of them I would consider quite attractive, but it never worked out because of relationship stipulations (ie, one of us is already in a relationship), personality conflicts or bad Karma.
In fact, there was one particular attractive woman - if she gave me a choice between beer bread and sex, I would have chosen sex...but it would have been a tough choice. She made some great beer bread.

Highlifeman21
12-20-2006, 09:06 PM
I honestly don't think so. I don't want to keep bringing it back to my own experience because I'm just one person, but it's all I've got...I have some very close male friends. I just think that we know each other too well. We know each other's shortcomings in relationships. We know the crap we've pulled on other people in the past. There's no surprise and no mystery beyond the physical part. There's no gut-wrenching...no chemistry, that's the word. Just because person has x, x, and x quality and you like to hang out with him/her doesn't mean it's a romantic fit.

Your friends aren't brutally honest with you then.

We're not talking about relationships here. I fully agree that you may have male friends that know the two of you are incompatible on a relationship level, but on a carnal level, they are no boundaries. The surprise and the mystery IS the physical part, and that's the essence of the male side of this argument.

If you've seen the movie "Waiting", then you'll remember some sage advice in there.

There are two things that happen with women.
1. They sleep with you, and there's no reason to call them again.
2. They don't sleep with you, and there's no reason to call them again.

Please don't mistake relationships and romance with sex. They are mutually exclusive. You can clearly have sex without relationships and romance, and that's the fundamental issue of the male point of view. We don't always want romance and relationships, but we always want sex.

Use whatever euphemism you want, but at the end of the day, men will always want sex and openly admit it, while women will typically want sex and be afraid to admit it.

Ask your male friends if they would sleep with you given the opportunity with no attempt to go down the romance and relationship road, and the ones that say no are either gay, or lying.

GriffeyFan
12-20-2006, 09:55 PM
Wow, I never envisioned this would go 8 pages long and counting.

A LOT of interesting points and believe me, I'm taking them all in.

Well, since I'm off work after tomorrow, it's the big day. I went out tonight to get the gift. I ended up going to a Christian (Berean's) bookstore since she is a Christian and is active in her church. I thought it would be easy to find the perfect "little" gift. However, that proved to be no easy task. I wasn't necessarily concerned with the price of the gift so much as I was concerned with meaning that she would get from the gift. Like I said earlier, she's a pretty smart girl so she'll probably get what I'm doing anyway. But I spent about 45 minutes looking and reading. A lot of the things had words of wisdom or scripture, etc. I kept asking myself, is this too much (in meaning)?

I didn't really like any of the candle creations they had going on and came across a pair of items that I would choose the winning gift from. The first was one of those "thoughts of the day" desk calendars. It seemed ok but didn't seem personal enough. The other item was a small (maybe 6-8 inches tall) but thick cross with a saying on it:

"The Lord replied, my precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

I ended up going with this one. I think it has enough meaning but not too much. She can put it on her desk at work or anywhere she wants at home. I spent about what I thought I would (about $14 between this and the card), so I think I did okay.

So how did I do? I guess only time will tell.

Doc. Scott
12-20-2006, 10:03 PM
Interesting thread.

GF, it seems clear that you're interested in trying to turn this into a future relationship, not just a hookup. To get a clear shot at the basket, you may have to watch her go through a rebound with someone else. Maybe. (That "Christian" factor may possibly prevent that, but not necessarily.)

Be excellent and all, but don't get too therapist-like. Otherwise you'll find yourself in the Friend Zone, which is a setup that's great for her but not so great for you. Humans are habit-driven creatures just like household pets, and if the long talks into the night become too frequent, it may very well preclude you from having a romantic chance. (This is one area the movies usually get wrong.)

It's a fine line, and it's one that took me almost thirty (tomorrow, yes) years to learn. There is such a thing as being too nice, just like there is such a thing as thinking too much.

Cedric
12-20-2006, 10:08 PM
Wow, I never envisioned this would go 8 pages long and counting.

A LOT of interesting points and believe me, I'm taking them all in.

Well, since I'm off work after tomorrow, it's the big day. I went out tonight to get the gift. I ended up going to a Christian (Berean's) bookstore since she is a Christian and is active in her church. I thought it would be easy to find the perfect "little" gift. However, that proved to be no easy task. I wasn't necessarily concerned with the price of the gift so much as I was concerned with meaning that she would get from the gift. Like I said earlier, she's a pretty smart girl so she'll probably get what I'm doing anyway. But I spent about 45 minutes looking and reading. A lot of the things had words of wisdom or scripture, etc. I kept asking myself, is this too much (in meaning)?

I didn't really like any of the candle creations they had going on and came across a pair of items that I would choose the winning gift from. The first was one of those "thoughts of the day" desk calendars. It seemed ok but didn't seem personal enough. The other item was a small (maybe 6-8 inches tall) but thick cross with a saying on it:

"The Lord replied, my precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

I ended up going with this one. I think it has enough meaning but not too much. She can put it on her desk at work or anywhere she wants at home. I spent about what I thought I would (about $14 between this and the card), so I think I did okay.

So how did I do? I guess only time will tell.

You just called yourself her Jesus.

You did fine. If you can back it up big man.

Spring~Fields
12-20-2006, 10:09 PM
"The Lord replied, my precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

I ended up going with this one. I think it has enough meaning but not too much. She can put it on her desk at work or anywhere she wants at home. I spent about what I thought I would (about $14 between this and the card), so I think I did okay.

So how did I do? I guess only time will tell.

Nice choice grasshopper!

GriffeyFan
12-20-2006, 10:14 PM
DC,
You're right, I would like it if the future included a relationship with this girl. Knowing her though, I don't think it's likely for her to start up a relationship right away (and by that, I would say for least the next month). From my end, I can be patient. That said, I'm not going to be an idiot. I think I'm halfway decent at reading girls as to whether they are interested or not, so I won't hang around forever if I get the sense that it's not going to happen for whatever reason.

Believe me, I completely understand you guys on the rebound thing. I've been that guy before (but not with a divorced woman) and seen my friends be that guy.

I'm going into this with both eyes open so hopefully I'll do okay, whatever the outcome.

Super_Barry11
12-20-2006, 10:14 PM
Congrats on making your final choice, GF!! :thumbup: She's lucky to have someone like you in her life!!

Doc. Scott
12-20-2006, 10:29 PM
DC,
You're right, I would like it if the future included a relationship with this girl. Knowing her though, I don't think it's likely for her to start up a relationship right away (and by that, I would say for least the next month). From my end, I can be patient. That said, I'm not going to be an idiot. I think I'm halfway decent at reading girls as to whether they are interested or not, so I won't hang around forever if I get the sense that it's not going to happen for whatever reason.

Believe me, I completely understand you guys on the rebound thing. I've been that guy before (but not with a divorced woman) and seen my friends be that guy.

I'm going into this with both eyes open so hopefully I'll do okay, whatever the outcome.

I've noticed that as I've gotten a little older, I'm less willing to risk the heartbreak part in an iffy situation. At some point your viewpoint changes and you aren't willing to go through what you were when you were twenty.

So I'd endorse this viewpoint of yours for the moment. However, if you get the high sign, don't miss it.

Now get off my lawn.

Your Friend,

Old Fart

TeamCasey
12-20-2006, 10:49 PM
This is the most bizarre, yet interesting thread. It has me scratching my head.

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 10:53 PM
I was scratching my head until I read this:


You just called yourself her Jesus.

Now I am crying with laughter.

And to think none of us thought to suggest this!

gonelong
12-20-2006, 11:06 PM
I honestly don't think so. I don't want to keep bringing it back to my own experience because I'm just one person, but it's all I've got...I have some very close male friends.

When you bend over to grab a beer out of the cooler/crisper, your "close male friends" are discussing whether or not you are wearing a thong today. Seriously. I will bet the left 1/2 of my heart and both my kidneys that this has happened, heck, I'll throw in a lung, pancreas, aorta, central nervous system, and tastebuds for good measure.

They are discussing this in some detail. Ask them when they are very drunk, one of them will spill the beans.

GL

vaticanplum
12-20-2006, 11:10 PM
When you bend over to grab a beer out of the cooler/crisper, your "close male friends" are discussing whether or not you are wearing a thong today. Seriously. I will bet the left 1/2 of my heart and both my kidneys that this has happened, heck, I'll throw in a lung, pancreas, aorta, central nervous system, and tastebuds for good measure.

They are discussing this in some detail. Ask them when they are very drunk, one of them will spill the beans.

GL

I am not denying any of that. But there is a big difference between observation and action.

WMR
12-20-2006, 11:55 PM
Sweet phallic symbol, GF!! She'll get the "message," I'm sure. ;)

Chip R
12-21-2006, 12:53 AM
You just called yourself her Jesus.



Don't F*** with the Jesus!

http://booreview.com/images/the_big_lebowski_jesus.jpg

919191
12-21-2006, 01:23 AM
I didn't see something else along these lines touched on- can 2 friends of the opposite sex indulge in sex (casually) and still remain friends? Where they just look at sex as another fun activity friends can do? I think some can. Probably not that many, but some can.

And GF- sounds like you thought this out well. Start visiting here a little more often!

Roy Tucker
12-21-2006, 07:48 AM
Well, I've told all my stupid war stories, told my jokes, had a few laughs, and now I'm going to do something I wasn't going to do. I'm going to tell you what I *really* think. From someone who has seen these things from both sides of the inside and from the outside.

You are doing the wrong thing. You are pushing forward a romantic relationship with a married woman. And all this talk about walking a fine line with a gift or a card is what this is all about. The woman is married. He marriage is in trouble. Maybe it will make it, maybe it won't. That's up to the woman and her husband. But you are plotting and scheming events that can possibly hasten and encourage the end of her marriage. That is what you are doing.

The honorable and *right* thing to do is *stay out of it completely*. Don't send any signals, don't buy her mixed message gifts, don't cast longing glances out of the corner of your eye, don't clandestinely pitch woo, don't do anything. Keep things completely where they are now. Stay. Out.

I've know couple that were on the verge of divorce, filed papers, seen other people, blah blah blah, but when push came to shove, they stayed with it. And sometimes it works. A lot of time it doesn't, but sometimes it does.

Sometimes the timing is wrong on some things and sometimes things just aren't meant to be. I've met women who I'm sure I could have very rewarding and rich emotional and romantic and permanent relationships with. But the time wasn't right. She was involved, I was involved, whatever. And sometimes, the right thing to do is admit the timing isn't right and *move on*.

At least, that's how I see things in my little corner of the universe. I've been to a few rodeos so I have some experience in these areas. Feel free to tell me to go pee up a rope. YMMV.

TeamCasey
12-21-2006, 07:50 AM
I didn't see something else along these lines touched on- can 2 friends of the opposite sex indulge in sex (casually) and still remain friends? Where they just look at sex as another fun activity friends can do? I think some can.

Yes. (at least that's what I've heard). http://www.surromomsonline.com/support/images/angel-smiley.gif

NYMoose
12-21-2006, 10:17 AM
I didn't see something else along these lines touched on- can 2 friends of the opposite sex indulge in sex (casually) and still remain friends? Where they just look at sex as another fun activity friends can do? I think some can. Probably not that many, but some can.

And GF- sounds like you thought this out well. Start visiting here a little more often!

As my son says...'Friends with benefits'

Red Leader
12-21-2006, 10:22 AM
As my son says...'Friends with benefits'

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/movies/45549/45549_bw.jpg

redsfan30
12-21-2006, 10:36 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/movies/45549/45549_bw.jpg

:laugh: :laugh:

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 11:11 AM
I didn't see something else along these lines touched on- can 2 friends of the opposite sex indulge in sex (casually) and still remain friends? Where they just look at sex as another fun activity friends can do? I think some can. Probably not that many, but some can.

Sure. I think that the major caveat is that it's important to know absolutely that you have nothing but friend-like feelings toward this person before it happens, though, because once it does start up you are much more likely to get confused.

Cedric
12-21-2006, 11:23 AM
Sure. I think that the major caveat is that it's important to know absolutely that you have nothing but friend-like feelings toward this person before it happens, though, because once it does start up you are much more likely to get confused.

Other than in a man's fairy tale brain I know this doesn't work.

Either you are a great as a man and the woman loves you, or you stink and she forgets you. There is no in between "friends with benefit stage"

It's a fallacy. :)

Red Leader
12-21-2006, 11:33 AM
Other than in a man's fairy tale brain I know this doesn't work.

Either you are a great as a man and the woman loves you, or you stink and she forgets you. There is no in between "friends with benefit stage"

It's a fallacy. :)

I have a tendency to believe this. I'm just not sure that both people could be friends, and only friends, while being sexually involved and neither of them wants anything more, or expects anything more to happen in the future. As with everything, there may be exceptions, but I'd bet they'd be pretty rare exceptions. I guess what I'm saying is, even if you are friends before the whole sexual thing starts, I don't think you'd be as good of friends after it all ended. Some, or most people might be able to get through it as a one time thing, but I just can't see an extended period of time thing working out.

halcyon
12-21-2006, 11:48 AM
I have a few thoughts about topics in this thread that I might save for later. For now though, I can echo the sentiments expressed before about the wrath of a jealous [ex]-husband.

A friend of my family worked with a woman who he was friends with. She was going through a divorce. They went to lunch one day a couple weeks ago and the ex saw them out. He followed them back to the work parking lot. The friend in question sat in the lady's truck for a while and talked until the ex approached and pecked on the passenger side window. When he rolled down the window, the ex pulled up his .45 and shot him. He then proceeded to murder his ex-wife and wait on the cops. After he waited a while, he stood back up and put a couple more shots in them just to make sure and proceeded to resume waiting on the police.

So, this is an extreme example. But, it happens. The moral of the story is: just be careful. It doesn't take much to set some folks off when it comes to jealous rage.

Red Leader
12-21-2006, 12:18 PM
halcyon. Thanks for that story. It's true. That stuff does happen. We've been mostly light-heartedly talking about some of this stuff, joking at times, but this kind of stuff does happen. Anytime you are dealing with people's emotions, you have to consider stuff like this as well.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 12:24 PM
Other than in a man's fairy tale brain I know this doesn't work.

Either you are a great as a man and the woman loves you, or you stink and she forgets you. There is no in between "friends with benefit stage"

It's a fallacy. :)


I disagree. I think it depends on the people.

It kind of brings us full-circle to the thing we were disagreeing about before: I think you can enjoy spending time with someone, and be attracted to that person, and not want a romantic relationship with that person. Now, granted, for two people to feel this way mutually is maybe rare, but depending on personalities it does happen.

And halcyon: good Lord. I hope this case doesn't end up like this. We have enlisted Jesus after all.

M2
12-21-2006, 12:33 PM
You can do the friends with benefits thing with someone who isn't that close a friend (e.g. someone you talk to occasionally or hang out with in group situations).

Yet if you're talking about somebody you feel the need to talk to daily, to whom you're willing to spill your more intimate personal details, somebody with whom you have a constantly great time -- and you're sexually attracted to this person (which you'd have to be in order to be seeking benefits) -- then who's kidding who? That's the very definition of someone with whom you should get more serious.

I've got a friend who's made himself miserable, who's literally throwing away the best thing that's ever happened to him because he can't grasp the obvious. He serial dates a really amazing woman. She's smart, worldy, easy going, funny and gorgeous. Oh yeah, she's also just plain nice and you can tell she's the sort who'll stick with him through thick and thin. They've got similar interests and he gets along with her better than anyone he's ever dated (and he's dated plenty and then some). As far as I know, she's the only woman he's ever been with that he actually likes lazing around with.

Anyway, they've got a pattern where they get back together and everything goes great until she eventually reacts to the fact that it's going great and starts asking about the future. She usually waits six months to a year before she does this, so it's not like she's rushing to rope him in. Then they eventually split up, but they keep talking to each other constantly. My friend has dated other women during these breaks, but he still spends more time talking to her.

I've lost count of the rationalizations he's offered up. He does feel "it" with her. She's not "the one." Why can't she leave well enough alone? That last one's my favorite. I've noted a few times that she's the one having the sane reaction to things going well. I should note that our conversations on this subject tend to last no more than two minutes. We're guys. When I left my ex and crashed with him, I think we covered the subject of why in about 90 seconds.

Inevitably they get back together because they're nuts about each other. They've literally got everything you need to be happy. The only problem is he refuses to let experience guide him. I had a zillion reasons, including some good ones, why I didn't want anything approaching an exclusive relationship when I started seeing my wife. Fortunately I had the good sense to get out of my own way.

Point here is the human capacity to make dating 10,000% more difficult than it needs to be is truly a wonder to behold.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 12:42 PM
Point here is the human capacity to make dating 10,000% more difficult than it needs to be is truly a wonder to behold.

M2, I've got to side with your friend here. People may make dating more complicated than it is, but committing to someone for the rest of your life is one of the most difficult decisions anyone will ever have to make. He has to feel certain about it. He might someday realize that she's it, but if he doesn't yet, it will be a sham if he does commit to her and he'll grow to resent her. That's not fair to either of them.

If they're happy to spend time together, and they're dating exclusively, they shouldn't even NEED more commitment than that until they know they're ready. If she really wants marriage or kids or something, she'll break it off and stay away when she gets fed up enough.

Highlifeman21
12-21-2006, 01:45 PM
I have a tendency to believe this. I'm just not sure that both people could be friends, and only friends, while being sexually involved and neither of them wants anything more, or expects anything more to happen in the future. As with everything, there may be exceptions, but I'd bet they'd be pretty rare exceptions. I guess what I'm saying is, even if you are friends before the whole sexual thing starts, I don't think you'd be as good of friends after it all ended. Some, or most people might be able to get through it as a one time thing, but I just can't see an extended period of time thing working out.

Then some of you need different/better "friends". Scanning through my cell phone, I have exactly 58 phone numbers of females. 1 of which is my cousin. This leaves us with 57 options, or varieties, if you will.

We'll break down the other 57.
11 of which I've slept with - which allows for the possibility of a future romp (if they are still in my phone, it's b/c we still talk mutually)
26 of which I've hooked up with in some capacity less than sleeping with - again, they are still in my phone, which means we talk still, so they could get rolled into the first category eventually, hopefully
15 of which are future projects, that I've yet to get pass the locked lips stage. Not a hook up, so they aren't of the 26.
5 of which serve no other purpose than a middle woman to other opportunities. I have zero interest in these women other than meeting other women.

To dig deeper into the numbers, only 5 of the 11 were in what I would call actual "relationships". That leaves us with 6 that were nothing more than a friendly romp, and obviously it was mutual if we still talk.
17 of the 26 I believe could be taken to the next level physically, with no consequence of trying to fake a relationship just to get laid.

So, that means at least 23 people in my phonebook I fully, without a shadow of a doubt, believe that if we're both in the mood, both local, will get down in the biblical sense. Bump uglies, what have you. Both parties will be looking for nothing but mutual physical pleasure.

I don't think the exceptions are all that rare indeed. In fact, quite the opposite. I think it's just a communication barrier where two people are too ashamed to admit they just wanna have sex, and have to try and pretty it up and mask it as a "relationship" or "dating" or whatever term du jour.

Friends with sexual benefits is a real thing people, and it's beautiful.

M2
12-21-2006, 01:49 PM
M2, I've got to side with your friend here. People may make dating more complicated than it is, but committing to someone for the rest of your life is one of the most difficult decisions anyone will ever have to make. He has to feel certain about it. He might someday realize that she's it, but if he doesn't yet, it will be a sham if he does commit to her and he'll grow to resent her. That's not fair to either of them.

If they're happy to spend time together, and they're dating exclusively, they shouldn't even NEED more commitment than that until they know they're ready. If she really wants marriage or kids or something, she'll break it off and stay away when she gets fed up enough.

You don't know him like I do. He's going to be old, lonely, miserable and constantly hanging out at my house for dinner. He doesn't "know" because life doesn't come with warranties. Any sensible person and a good number of insensible folks would have figured what he can't by now. In fact, I know a few insensible folks who've scratched their heads over his situation because it's that obvious.

You're right about how it's going to end. She's going to be fine. He's not. The time and space she's given is nothing short of remarkable. I'm lucky, I've made plenty of mistakes in my life, but I don't have any deep regrets. I've been around long enough to know plenty who do and my friend is going to top the list.

Mind you, he's an extreme example. The more basic point is that if there's someone you get along with famously and you find that person attractive, don't argue with the premise of what should be a good time. Yes, he's staring down the maw of a lifetime of near constant regret, but when they've been together he's also been the happiest he's ever been.

I'm generally pro-breakup and I don't think anyone should start dating based on the premise that it has to seem like a good final answer. I've just dated enough people with whom I fundamentally didn't get along to appreciate the ones with whom I did.

Dom Heffner
12-21-2006, 01:58 PM
You can be friends with benefits. I've done it. The girl was fine with it, I was fine with it, and we ended it as wonderfully mutual as I have ever ended anything.

It was a cleaner break than getting out of a cell phone contract, that's for sure. :)

gonelong
12-21-2006, 02:24 PM
I am not denying any of that. But there is a big difference between observation and action.

I'm kind of confused, but it wouldn't be the first time a girl has done that to me. :laugh:

I think everyone here seems to have a slighty different concept in mind when they think "friend".

GL

gonelong
12-21-2006, 02:30 PM
You can be friends with benefits. I've done it. The girl was fine with it, I was fine with it, and we ended it as wonderfully mutual as I have ever ended anything.

It was a cleaner break than getting out of a cell phone contract, that's for sure. :)

Dollars to donuts that a large percentate of your female friends have faded completely away over time, however, your male friends that have faded completely over time is a much, much lower percentage.

I guess that is one of my points. IMO she wasn't a friend to begin with, especially if you had a clean break. You don't break up with your friends.

You are either a friend or a ... benefit. In my little world you can't be both, they are mutually exclusive.

GL

/not sure what compels me to discuss something so trivial

Red Leader
12-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Hooking up with friends is understandable. In fact, that most of the reason for trying to become their friend in the first place.

I just don't get the : good friend (not having sex), <1 month later> good friend (not having sex), <1 month later> good friend (having sex), <1 month later> good friend (having sex), <1 month later> good friend (still having sex), <1 month later> good friend (not having sex)....why not? What caused that to change? Just didn't feel like doing it anymore? She or You are hooking up with someone else now, but that girl is still your good friend and you talk to her as much as before?

:dunno:

Falls City Beer
12-21-2006, 02:55 PM
Hooking up with friends is understandable. In fact, that most of the reason for trying to become their friend in the first place.

I just don't get the : good friend (not having sex), <1 month later> good friend (not having sex), <1 month later> good friend (having sex), <1 month later> good friend (having sex), <1 month later> good friend (still having sex), <1 month later> good friend (not having sex)....why not? What caused that to change? Just didn't feel like doing it anymore? She or You are hooking up with someone else now, but that girl is still your good friend and you talk to her as much as before?

:dunno:

Someone tried to bring anal beads into the picture. That's what happened.

Red Leader
12-21-2006, 02:57 PM
Someone tried to bring anal beads into the picture. That's what happened.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbup:

dabvu2498
12-21-2006, 03:00 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbup:

I was just emailed something very relevant:


>"You know "that look" women get when they want sex? Me neither."
>--Steve Martin
>
>
>"Having sex is like playing bridge. If you don't have a good partner,
>you'd
>better have a good hand."
>--Woody Allen
>
>
>
>"There are a number of mechanical devices which increase sexual arousal,
>particularly in women. Chief among these is the Mercedes-Benz 380SL."
>--Lynn Lavner
>
>
>
>"Women might be able to fake orgasms. But men can fake whole
>relationships."
>--Sharon Stone
>
>
>"My girlfriend always laughs during sex ---no matter what she's reading."
>--Steve Jobs (Founder, Apple Computers)
>
>
>
>
>"Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place."
>--Billy Crystal
>
>
>
>
>"Instead of getting married again, I'm going to find a woman I don't like
>and just give her a house."
>--Rod Stewart
>
>
>"See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only
>enough
>blood to run one at a time."
>--Robin Williams

max venable
12-21-2006, 04:13 PM
The other item was a small (maybe 6-8 inches tall) but thick cross with a saying on it:

"The Lord replied, my precious child, I love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

I ended up going with this one. I think it has enough meaning but not too much.


Ah, yes, from the famous (or infamous) Footprints In the Sand poem.

Here's a version I prefer:

One night, I had a wondrous dream;
One set of footprints there was seen.

The footprints of my precious Lord,
But mine were not along the shore.

But then some stranger prints appeared,
And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"

"Those prints are large and round and neat,
But, Lord, they are too big for feet."

"My child," He said in somber tones.
"For miles I carried you alone.

I challenged you to walk in faith,
But you refused and made me wait.

You disobeyed, you would not grow,
The walk of-faith you would not know.

So I got tired and fed up,
And there I dropped you on your butt,

Because in life, there comes a time,
When one must fight, and one must climb,

When one must rise and take a stand,
Or leave their butt-prints in the sand."

:thumbup:

GriffeyFan
12-21-2006, 07:51 PM
Well, I've told all my stupid war stories, told my jokes, had a few laughs, and now I'm going to do something I wasn't going to do. I'm going to tell you what I *really* think. From someone who has seen these things from both sides of the inside and from the outside.

You are doing the wrong thing. You are pushing forward a romantic relationship with a married woman. And all this talk about walking a fine line with a gift or a card is what this is all about. The woman is married. He marriage is in trouble. Maybe it will make it, maybe it won't. That's up to the woman and her husband. But you are plotting and scheming events that can possibly hasten and encourage the end of her marriage. That is what you are doing.

The honorable and *right* thing to do is *stay out of it completely*. Don't send any signals, don't buy her mixed message gifts, don't cast longing glances out of the corner of your eye, don't clandestinely pitch woo, don't do anything. Keep things completely where they are now. Stay. Out.

I've know couple that were on the verge of divorce, filed papers, seen other people, blah blah blah, but when push came to shove, they stayed with it. And sometimes it works. A lot of time it doesn't, but sometimes it does.

Sometimes the timing is wrong on some things and sometimes things just aren't meant to be. I've met women who I'm sure I could have very rewarding and rich emotional and romantic and permanent relationships with. But the time wasn't right. She was involved, I was involved, whatever. And sometimes, the right thing to do is admit the timing isn't right and *move on*.

At least, that's how I see things in my little corner of the universe. I've been to a few rodeos so I have some experience in these areas. Feel free to tell me to go pee up a rope. YMMV.

Roy,
Hey, I get what you're saying but it's not like I'm asking this girl out, I'm not calling her at home, we're not going to the movies together or anything like that. The situation is far from that. I'm just got her a nice little gift. Do I have ulterior motives? Maybe, but I'm not going to be acting on those for quite a while.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 07:59 PM
Then some of you need different/better "friends". Scanning through my cell phone, I have exactly 58 phone numbers of females. 1 of which is my cousin. This leaves us with 57 options, or varieties, if you will.

We'll break down the other 57.
11 of which I've slept with - which allows for the possibility of a future romp (if they are still in my phone, it's b/c we still talk mutually)
26 of which I've hooked up with in some capacity less than sleeping with - again, they are still in my phone, which means we talk still, so they could get rolled into the first category eventually, hopefully
15 of which are future projects, that I've yet to get pass the locked lips stage. Not a hook up, so they aren't of the 26.
5 of which serve no other purpose than a middle woman to other opportunities. I have zero interest in these women other than meeting other women.

To dig deeper into the numbers, only 5 of the 11 were in what I would call actual "relationships". That leaves us with 6 that were nothing more than a friendly romp, and obviously it was mutual if we still talk.
17 of the 26 I believe could be taken to the next level physically, with no consequence of trying to fake a relationship just to get laid.

So, that means at least 23 people in my phonebook I fully, without a shadow of a doubt, believe that if we're both in the mood, both local, will get down in the biblical sense. Bump uglies, what have you. Both parties will be looking for nothing but mutual physical pleasure.

I don't think the exceptions are all that rare indeed. In fact, quite the opposite. I think it's just a communication barrier where two people are too ashamed to admit they just wanna have sex, and have to try and pretty it up and mask it as a "relationship" or "dating" or whatever term du jour.

Friends with sexual benefits is a real thing people, and it's beautiful.

This is the boyest post ever.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 08:01 PM
Not the senitment, per se, but the numbers. Good god boys and their obsession with numbers. Both quantitative and phone.

Falls City Beer
12-21-2006, 08:05 PM
Not the senitment, per se, but the numbers. Good god boys and their obsession with numbers. Both quantitative and phone.

Hey now. I don't even own a cell phone.

Real men hate talking anyway. The more time a man spends chatting on the phone, the less masculine he becomes. It's scientifically proven.

UKFlounder
12-21-2006, 08:13 PM
Roy,
Hey, I get what you're saying but it's not like I'm asking this girl out, I'm not calling her at home, we're not going to the movies together or anything like that. The situation is far from that. I'm just got her a nice little gift. Do I have ulterior motives? Maybe, but I'm not going to be acting on those for quite a while.

Perhaps not consciously, but might you perhaps wink at her when you don't intend to, or maybe have a sheepish grin when you see her or some other small gesture/expression that she might interpret as being more than what you mean? Maybe a slip-up when you talk (I once said the word "tits" when I tried to say "tid-bits" - that was pretty embarrassing and not at all what I wanted to say in that situation.)

Maybe your self-control is good enough to avoid that - I hope so.

The bottom line is you have to do what is best for your, either in your heart or in your mind. Advice is good, but you have made your decision, so I hope it works out for you.

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 08:19 PM
Hey now. I don't even own a cell phone.

But if you did, you would have eleven hundred thousand numbers in it. And you would start using the phone more. Manhood be damned. Manhood doesn't hold a candle to texting.

Actually, I think this is generational. The lads love their phones, I'm telling you, and they have rules about them, not that I know what they are. My friend (a Philadelphian, incidentally) was just telling me last night about this guy with whom she went on two dates. Nice guy, but she wasn't interested in anything romantically. She tells him this on the phone. he says ok, I understand. They hang up. Immediately she gets a text from him: "Should I take you out of my phone?" She writes back, "I can't answer that for you." "Well, will I be talking to you again?" "I don't know. Maybe we'll talk, I just don't want anything romantic." "Usually I just keep girls in here if there's a chance for that : )"

Yes, he told her this. Or texted it, rather. Immediately following a real-time conversation. And he HAD to know. It's another language.

Reds Nd2
12-21-2006, 08:20 PM
Hey now. I don't even own a cell phone.

Real men hate talking anyway. The more time a man spends chatting on the phone, the less masculine he becomes. It's scientifically proven.

Never spend more time talking to a woman on the phone than you can have sex with her. It's like a law or something.

Reds Nd2
12-21-2006, 08:43 PM
Do I have ulterior motives? Maybe, but I'm not going to be acting on those for quite a while.

GF, you may not realize this yet, but your already acting on your ulterior motives. This may not even be the first step you've taken, but I say go for it. Everyone deserves to be happy. Just remember to protect your heart dude.

Your choice of gifts was a great one by the way. As long as you can avoid that always tricky slope of becoming the "Oh, he's just a friend" guy in the interim, you'll be all over this like a fat kid on a cupcake. Puffy offered some sage advice earlier. Just sayin'...

Edited to add: Good Luck GriffeyFan.

MrCinatit
12-21-2006, 08:47 PM
Never spend more time talking to a woman on the phone than you can have sex with her. It's like a law or something.


I agree. I call that my "two-minute" rule.



On good days.

Caveat Emperor
12-21-2006, 08:52 PM
It kind of brings us full-circle to the thing we were disagreeing about before: I think you can enjoy spending time with someone, and be attracted to that person, and not want a romantic relationship with that person. Now, granted, for two people to feel this way mutually is maybe rare, but depending on personalities it does happen.

I'm probably the least-qualified person to speak on this issue (reading this thread has shown me how devoid of experience I am on this topic), but I'd say that it has mostly to do with the number of options the guy has available to him:

LOTS OF OPTIONS: Likely to be able to be just friends because he really isn't fixated on one thing and has lots of other options available and can afford to allow one to never develop fully.

MODERATE NUMBER OF OPTIONS: Likely not to be able to be just friends because he is probably hoping to turn this one, or one of his other ones, into a relationship.

FEW OPTIONS: Likely able to be just friends because he is probably petrified of screwing up and losing one of his few opportunitie forever. Is content to "wait" for the right moment that never comes.

Reds Nd2
12-21-2006, 08:57 PM
I agree. I call that my "two-minute" rule.



On good days.

Here I come
My mind is set
Get ready for love
You're my ten second pet

Ten Seconds To Love - Mötley Crüe

Yea' Willy Shakespeare their not. :laugh:

vaticanplum
12-21-2006, 11:38 PM
Then some of you need different/better "friends". Scanning through my cell phone, I have exactly 58 phone numbers of females. 1 of which is my cousin. This leaves us with 57 options, or varieties, if you will.

We'll break down the other 57.
11 of which I've slept with - which allows for the possibility of a future romp (if they are still in my phone, it's b/c we still talk mutually)
26 of which I've hooked up with in some capacity less than sleeping with - again, they are still in my phone, which means we talk still, so they could get rolled into the first category eventually, hopefully
15 of which are future projects, that I've yet to get pass the locked lips stage. Not a hook up, so they aren't of the 26.
5 of which serve no other purpose than a middle woman to other opportunities. I have zero interest in these women other than meeting other women.

To dig deeper into the numbers, only 5 of the 11 were in what I would call actual "relationships". That leaves us with 6 that were nothing more than a friendly romp, and obviously it was mutual if we still talk.
17 of the 26 I believe could be taken to the next level physically, with no consequence of trying to fake a relationship just to get laid.

So, that means at least 23 people in my phonebook I fully, without a shadow of a doubt, believe that if we're both in the mood, both local, will get down in the biblical sense. Bump uglies, what have you. Both parties will be looking for nothing but mutual physical pleasure.

I don't think the exceptions are all that rare indeed. In fact, quite the opposite. I think it's just a communication barrier where two people are too ashamed to admit they just wanna have sex, and have to try and pretty it up and mask it as a "relationship" or "dating" or whatever term du jour.

Friends with sexual benefits is a real thing people, and it's beautiful.

First time I think I've ever quoted a post twice.

I want to bring up a point to you, Highlifeman. Because this thread is kind of fascinating to me, it came up in a conversation I was having with my friend tonight. Because we have nothing better to do, we ended up doing the same thing with our phones. It was quite fun; thanks for the tip. BUT. In talking we hit on a good point, which is that you list a total of 23 women whom you have not hooked up with, but fully believe that you could/will, and that it would be nothing but a hookup. As girls we counter with this: you may THINK that it would be nothing with a hookup, but for at least half of those girls it wouldn't be. ESPECIALLY if either you or she has a reputation as someone who enjoys physical hookups alone (and it's likely that you do have that reputation, being a guy, and it's likely that a lot of them have that reputation, being girls that you believe fall into this category of girls you could hook up with and be done with it). Then it goes against precedent and pride and un-awkwardness for her to bring up her feelings. But that doesn't mean they're not there. So your 23 future purely hookup women is not really only that -- not for them. And this is very possible for your prior hookups too. Those six "friendly romps"? Very unlikely that at least one of them didn't carry a torch for you at some point, and kept her mouth shut to preserve the friendship and the romps. Which is, maybe, what people were saying the other way around earlier in the thread? Maybe not.

There is a contingent of men, god forbid, who believe that women don't want sex as just sex or pretend that they don't. I don't know any women like that, not my age anyway. All women I know enjoy a good purely physical time and that can be with a friend; I'm not going against my earlier statement. But it's still tied to emotion for women a lot of the time too, of course it is. that's why Viagra for women was proven useless.

So my larger conclusion is that women fall in the middle here: there are times when it's all physical and possibly friendly, times when it's not. The same holds true for men. In the end I don't think this is all about men and women -- it's just about personality and timing and desires at any given time.

Falls City Beer
12-22-2006, 12:09 AM
So my larger conclusion is that women fall in the middle here: there are times when it's all physical and possibly friendly, times when it's not. The same holds true for men. In the end I don't think this is all about men and women -- it's just about personality and timing and desires at any given time.

This seems right. I get itchy with this Men are from Mars psychological stuff (hence the goof on masculinity and phone time on this thread). It's really next to impossible to predict with any kind of certainty where these motivations come from and where they go.

Roy Tucker
12-22-2006, 08:10 AM
Roy,
Hey, I get what you're saying but it's not like I'm asking this girl out, I'm not calling her at home, we're not going to the movies together or anything like that. The situation is far from that. I'm just got her a nice little gift. Do I have ulterior motives? Maybe, but I'm not going to be acting on those for quite a while.

Hey, I'm not casting stones. I'm an imperfect carbon-based unit and have made all of these mistakes. I've taken up with a married woman and in my first marriage I took up with other women. I have made all of these mistakes (I am one of those people that don't learn from the mistakes of others). So I am light-years far from without sin here.

The problem is, I have this little voice in my head that bothers me all the time (my Farney). And that stupid little voice tells me things. And the things he tells me are the blunt and complete truths of things. The "right thing", if you will.

Sometimes I wish he'd shut up because I really don't want to do the right thing because doing it not-the-right-way is a whole lot more fun. But he bugs the crap out of me about it and I usually give in. I've found if I listen to him, I sleep better nights and am able to look at myself in the mirror. I used to ignore him but it got me into a lot of trouble. A whole lot of trouble.

I'm pretty old-fashioned about some things. One of those things is marriage. Way too often in modern day society, it's treated like a disposable item. People get disillusioned, people get unhappy, people get lazy, or maybe people do fall out of love, I don't know.

All I know is marriage is a precious thing. It needs to be protected and conserved. Maybe not at all costs, but each and every little thing that can be done to protect it and keep it going must be done. At least in my book. I see all too much evidence of emotional damage done to the partners, the families, and the children of broken marriage.

Every time a marriage breaks up, it sends a tremor through every other marriage. And when we hear of marriages on the rocks, all of us married folk huddle together and hold our spouses a little tighter. The wolves are always out there, on the prowl, figuratively and literally.

My point is, anything you do that can be in any way construed as "romantic", big or little, that distracts her from working through the path that her marriage is going to take is wrong.

If you truly care for her, if you truly care about her future and her happiness, if you care about her having a happy and fulfilling life, you will listen to your little voice and give her the emotional room she needs to work out her marriage without outside interference and eliminate the emotional confusion you may be causing her. If her marriage doesn't work, there is plenty of time later for you guys to hook up. But first things first.

And I think, if you look into your heart of hearts and think about it, you know the kinds of things I'm talking about. Not sending her roses, not asking her out for dates, but all those little things that can cloud her judgement.

You may now say "screw you Roy, I know what I'm doing, shut up you old fool". But I hope what I say sticks at least 1-2&#37; or otherwise resonates with you.

Dom Heffner
12-22-2006, 12:34 PM
I'm pretty old-fashioned about some things. One of those things is marriage. Way too often in modern day society, it's treated like a disposable item. People get disillusioned, people get unhappy, people get lazy, or maybe people do fall out of love, I don't know.


Roy, I can appreciate where you are coming from, but should this girl stay in something she's not happy with just 'cause, you know, a lot of people are old fashioned and she has the marriage tag on the relationship? :)

I can't think of a worse hell than staying in something that isn't working.


I see all too much evidence of emotional damage done to the partners, the families, and the children of broken marriage.

The world is a bit large to pick and choose examples we've seen that support our personal position.

I've seen emotional damage from people staying in broken relationships. I've seen people who were never married and perfectly happy. I've seen people who were never married and miserable. I've seen children happy their parents split up because life at home was terrible when the parents were together.

There are lot of possibilities in this life and with billions of people in this world, I'm guessing just about all those possibilities get filled.

Life is not a traipse through daisies and sunshine all the time. People get hurt, uncomfortable decisions get made, and gee, this isn't anything at all what we thought it would be growing up. And we go through pain, lots of it. The funny thing is, the pain is temporary and we are then off to better things that eventually disappoint and hurt us too, potentially.

But I digress.

What I'm trying to say is that while Roy's advice sounds noble, I'm really not sure Griffey Fan is breaking any moral boundary here: she's the one with the commitment, and if that commitment is on terribly shaky ground - separated for two months after only a year isn't a terrific sign- then all bets are coming very close to being off.

If I'm her husband, I'm not thinking that, "Man, things would have only worked if Griffey Fan had not entered the picture..."

The goal should not be to have a relationship where the wolves don't come around (that's never going to happen, is it?)- the goal is to have a relationship where the wolves can come around all they want and the relationship withstands it.

I'm not sure I'd feel very good about my relationship if it were only there because it had never been tested.

That isn't to say that I recommend going around sending flowers to happily married women to stir trouble.

But in the end, it takes two to tango, and if my girlfriend left me to be with you, I wouldn't blame you, I'd blame her -for a moment- and then realize later in life that if it wasn't strong enough to withstand another wolf (this whole wolf thing is a bit off, since wolves mate for life, don't they? ;))then I didn't have much to begin with.

I think it's sweet that you hold your wife a little harder when you see other relationships break up, but I hope that is more out of appreciation than fear that someone will take it away.

Chip R
12-22-2006, 01:09 PM
Roy, I can appreciate where you are coming from, but should this girl stay in something she's not happy with just 'cause, you know, a lot of people are old fashioned and she has the marriage tag on the relationship? :)

I can't think of a worse hell than staying in something that isn't working.


Perhaps you're right, Dom, but that's her decision to make. It's not unusual for guys to believe that they can come charging in and be their beloved's knight in shining armor, deck the cad with one punch and sweep the lady away on their white horse and ride off into the sunset together and live happily ever after.

But that's not reality. Reality is that most people would rather stay with the devil they know than the devil they don't know. This guy may be a real heel and GF may be the nicest guy in the world but more often than not, she's going to stay with the heel because she can't imagine life without him. She fell in love with this guy or had enough of an emotional commitment with him that she ended up marrying him. Odds are pretty good she'll either stay with him or she will not want to get into a relationship with GF because she's gunshy.


What I'm trying to say is that while Roy's advice sounds noble, I'm really not sure Griffey Fan is breaking any moral boundary here: she's the one with the commitment, and if that commitment is on terribly shaky ground - separated for two months after only a year isn't a terrific sign- then all bets are coming very close to being off.



It's not necessarily about morality. Everyone has their own moral code which they have to live by. Your moral code may be different than mine which may be different than GF's. It's all well and good for us to tell GF to not to mess with a married woman because she's still married but that's up to GF. My advice earlier was to wait till the papers are signed and the ink's dry and perhaps even after that to pursue something. But that wasn't because I felt he was/is breaking some kind of moral law, it was because he could end up holding the bag, so to speak, if she goes back to her hubby and GF will get hurt. I'm guessing he's going to go after her anyway no matter what advice we dole out. I'm not so sure I'd be any different if I had a female friend I was attracted to who was interested in me and had left her husband. But that's a decision each of us have to make for ourselves and live with.

Ltlabner
12-22-2006, 02:18 PM
Roy, I can appreciate where you are coming from, but should this girl stay in something she's not happy with just 'cause, you know, a lot of people are old fashioned and she has the marriage tag on the relationship? :)

I haven't read every last post, but I don't think anybody is suggesting she should stay in a crappy marriage. At least I'm not.

But I am suggesting GF stear clear of anything more than polite hello's and occasionall office chit-chat until she is 100% out of that marriage. Sorry, but seperated/the marriage is dead and divorced are two different things. It's not got anything to do with morality, but until she is offically/leagally out of the marriage, and more importantly had time to heal and work through issues she is NOT relationship material. And GF indicated that he "fell for her" and she "had all the qualities he is looking for" so it sounds like he is looking for a true relationship rather than just some physical fun time.

Once she's reached that point then GF can/should court her with a vengence but doing so before that point is foolhardy at best IMO.

WVRed
12-22-2006, 05:06 PM
Think this thread can go the route of the original "Girls are Evil" thread?

Just sayin'.

paintmered
12-22-2006, 11:39 PM
Think this thread can go the route of the original "Girls are Evil" thread?

Just sayin'.

Raisor hasn't made an appearance yet. And I think that girl was single at the time of his original post...

But sure. Why not? Let's revisit this thread in a few weeks or months. Updates! We want updates!

Chip R
12-23-2006, 12:10 AM
Raisor hasn't made an appearance yet. And I think that girl was single at the time of his original post...



Well, that girl was single but he ended up marrying her (and his) friend.

GriffeyFan
01-01-2007, 05:30 PM
So you guys want the post-present situation?

Well, I incidentally found out the "real" reason behind the divorce. My brother's fiance goes to the church that both of them went to and that their parents continue to go to. As the report goes, "she ended the marriage because she wants to get back with the girl she was with during college."

I know she didn't go to a typical 4-year college, she went to a trade or technical or beauty school (something like that). I obviously didn't know she was bisexual. I didn't see that one coming.

So anyway, a relationship is out of the question, that's for sure.

But if her friend is attractive, then............just kidding. Well maybe.

vaticanplum
01-01-2007, 05:44 PM
Yeah, so how come none of you brilliant, experienced, moral, all-knowing male Don Juan advisors predicted THAT outcome?

;)

WMR
01-01-2007, 06:15 PM
So you guys want the post-present situation?

Well, I incidentally found out the "real" reason behind the divorce. My brother's fiance goes to the church that both of them went to and that their parents continue to go to. As the report goes, "she ended the marriage because she wants to get back with the girl she was with during college."

I know she didn't go to a typical 4-year college, she went to a trade or technical or beauty school (something like that). I obviously didn't know she was bisexual. I didn't see that one coming.

So anyway, a relationship is out of the question, that's for sure.

But if her friend is attractive, then............just kidding. Well maybe.

How does it feel to hold a winning powerball ticket in your hands?

Or hit the trifecta box at the track?

Those are the parallels that immediately leap to mind.

UKFlounder
01-01-2007, 06:54 PM
Yeah, so how come none of you brilliant, experienced, moral, all-knowing male Don Juan advisors predicted THAT outcome?

;)

That was too good to be true. Even guys can't have dreams THAT good :evil:

WVRed
01-01-2007, 07:39 PM
So you guys want the post-present situation?

Well, I incidentally found out the "real" reason behind the divorce. My brother's fiance goes to the church that both of them went to and that their parents continue to go to. As the report goes, "she ended the marriage because she wants to get back with the girl she was with during college."

I know she didn't go to a typical 4-year college, she went to a trade or technical or beauty school (something like that). I obviously didn't know she was bisexual. I didn't see that one coming.

So anyway, a relationship is out of the question, that's for sure.

But if her friend is attractive, then............just kidding. Well maybe.

:eek:

On a side note, this might be a good suggestion for the Peanut Gallery, but would a relationship advice forum be a good idea? I know with the Girls are Evil thread and this one, there has been some quality advice given by many of our older Redszoners. It might be something to consider.

MrCinatit
01-01-2007, 08:28 PM
Yeah, so how come none of you brilliant, experienced, moral, all-knowing male Don Juan advisors predicted THAT outcome?
;)


"i'm not really certain about the pronunciation of the term, but I believe it is..."

Oh, and we did not consider it, because it is the hottest thing. Ever.

Nugget
01-01-2007, 08:30 PM
:eek:

On a side note, this might be a good suggestion for the Peanut Gallery, but would a relationship advice forum be a good idea? I know with the Girls are Evil thread and this one, there has been some quality advice given by many of our older Redszoners. It might be something to consider.

The Good Idea at the Time post in ORG would also seem to fit there as well.

RBA
01-01-2007, 10:19 PM
My advice for all relationships: RUN!

George Foster
01-01-2007, 10:54 PM
I spent an hour reading this thread and the chic is gay.....poor GF...poor me.
I want the hour back!:cry:

Chip R
01-01-2007, 11:01 PM
Yeah, so how come none of you brilliant, experienced, moral, all-knowing male Don Juan advisors predicted THAT outcome?

;)


Yeah, if we said something like that we'd have gotten ripped on by women who would have accused us of being pervs. ;)

Oh, and I didn't see any ladies predict that outcome either, especially since it was intended for the ladies. :p:

savafan
01-01-2007, 11:13 PM
Wow...just wow...I just spent three hours reading the entire thread from the beginning again. This was better than most nights at the movies.

vaticanplum
01-01-2007, 11:58 PM
Oh, and I didn't see any ladies predict that outcome either, especially since it was intended for the ladies. :p:

That's because instead of analyzing the relationship and pondering the possibilities of the woman's past and GriffeyFan's future, we ANSWERED HIS QUESTION :p:

savafan
01-02-2007, 12:29 AM
That's because instead of analyzing the relationship and pondering the possibilities of the woman's past and GriffeyFan's future, we ANSWERED HIS QUESTION :p:

And a lot of good that did eh? :D

CougarQuest
01-02-2007, 12:50 AM
Now I'm really gonna stick by and now double the answer I gave before that people scoffed at


Oh, in that case, buy a condom

:p:

Yachtzee
01-02-2007, 01:12 AM
Okay, who had "Volume of Sapphic Poetry" in the pool?

Now the question is, does GF's next post start with...

"Dear Penthouse Letters,

I never thought this could happen to me..." :evil:

Caveat Emperor
01-02-2007, 01:26 AM
Okay, who had "Volume of Sapphic Poetry" in the pool?

Now the question is, does GF's next post start with...

"Dear Penthouse Letters,

I never thought this could happen to me..." :evil:

NI-CE.

http://myfilestash.com/userfiles/hakimaki/borat.bmp

M2
01-02-2007, 09:25 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking the inscribed cross missed the mark by a wide berth.

Red Leader
01-02-2007, 10:01 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking the inscribed cross missed the mark by a wide berth.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Should have went to Spencer gifts.

They have a lot of nice toys for girls like that.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

camisadelgolf
01-02-2007, 12:34 PM
Even if you're 90% sure she doesn't want you, ask her out, or you'll probably regret it forever.

WVRed
01-02-2007, 03:26 PM
Even if you're 90% sure she doesn't want you, ask her out, or you'll probably regret it forever.

I think you missed some very important details earlier on in the thread.;)

RBA
01-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Even if you're 90% sure she doesn't want you, ask her out, or you'll probably regret it forever.


Somebody has been watching too many 90's sitcoms. ;)

bucksfan
01-02-2007, 04:36 PM
I think you missed some very important details earlier on in the thread.;)

I don't think he did..... ;)

vaticanplum
07-13-2007, 12:56 AM
I just had to search like hell for this thread. I'm bumping it. It should be archived.

skimming through it has confirmed my beliefs that a) I don't know how anyone ever gets married, and b) everyone is insane. Some wisdom to be gained here, to be sure, but still -- insane.

SteelSD
07-13-2007, 01:52 AM
I just had to search like hell for this thread. I'm bumping it. It should be archived.

skimming through it has confirmed my beliefs that a) I don't know how anyone ever gets married, and b) everyone is insane. Some wisdom to be gained here, to be sure, but still -- insane.

"Insane" is a strong word. "Unreasonable" might work better. Here are a few key rules about long-term relationships:

1. You find someone who, after figuring out all your imperfections, will tolerate you.

2. You find someone who you, after you figure out all their imperfections, decide you will tolerate.

3. As time progresses, you figure out that the imperfections are actually reasons you love them.

4. Patience. Lots of it. Even to the point of being beyond frustrated. If you don't have patience to give, you're dead in the water.

5. "Love at first sight" fades while genuine attraction grows over time if you've found an equal who you can respect.

6. People do dumb things from time to time. Your partner is no different. Deal with it.

7. If you don't genuinely feel the need to say "I love you" at least three times a day after being married for five years, that's a problem.

8. If you complain about your significant other more than you brag them up to your co-workers, you might want to re-think either your relationship or your own behavior.

9. If every bad thing is your partner's fault, then I'd suggest that you're part of the problem.

10. Each party in a relationship is going to be selfish from time to time. How the other party deals with that will determine the course of the relationship.

Marriage is a constant state of tolerance. Folks who get married for the wrong reasons are never quite able to tolerate the imperfections of their partner. Now, there are some imperfections that end up being deal-breakers but the small stuff isn't worth sweating. Sometimes even the larger stuff isn't worth sweating if it's not a deal-breaker. Unfortunately, most folks have an overly-romantic idea of the "perfect" relationship and that's the concept they have in-brain when they decide to take their vows.

IMHO, the key is to understand that once you've made that commitment, your partner is a blood relative. You can't jettison a blood relative any more than you could casually cut off your arm. Are there severe situations in which such an amputation would be necessary? Sure. But I'd suggest those are a much lower percentage than the current divorce rate.

I'd suggest that great long-term relationships and great marriages actually do exist (I'm in one). But they only exist within the realm of getting two reasonable parties together who both have realistic expectations.

FlightRick
07-13-2007, 03:09 AM
Ladies (and gentlemen) of the forum --

I am a rational man. A sane man. A man of science. But I also don't taunt the devil.

Three minutes ago, I got this note:



A true boyfriend ( WOW these are not around anymore )
Body:
- Stay on the phone with her even if shes not saying anything
- Tease her and let her tease you back.
- Stay up all night with her when she's sick.
- Watch her favorite movie with her.
- Give her the world.
- Let her wear your clothes.
- When she's bored and sad, hang out with her.
- Let her know she's important.
- Kiss her in the pouring rain.
- When she runs up at you crying.. the first thing you say is.. Who's ass am i beating today baby?"

If you don't re post this in four minutes you will lose the one you love.

If you do re post this in the next four minutes the one you love will :
Call you
Kiss you
Love you
Text you

If you don't post this in four minutes you will lose the one you love

Guys post : Whether you'd be this boyfriend.
Girls post : Your True Boyfriend


To be honest, I'm getting old enough that I can't afford to miss out on any opportunity, even if it does have all the crediblity of Dr. Mbumji Djaijia, and his $100,000 windfall in need of a United States Bank Account (and your social security number). So with one minute to spare, I dump this re-post here, in some hidden area of RedZone, with the relatively cheerful admission that, of all the stupid things girls sometimes want, *this* actually is a boyfriend I could be. Especially the part about letting her wear my clothes. Nothing finer than a girl in a man-shirt!

Pass it along, and you, too will also fail to get laid! Barely veiled chainletters that stand zero percent of working RULE~! That's why I'm trying to bury it here: both a matter of record with the proper Chain Letter Authorities, and also soon to be ignored and forgotten by RedZone. This seems like an appropriately retarded thread to do this in. Excelsior...


- FR~!

MrCinatit
07-13-2007, 07:34 AM
I just had to search like hell for this thread. I'm bumping it. It should be archived.

skimming through it has confirmed my beliefs that a) I don't know how anyone ever gets married, and b) everyone is insane. Some wisdom to be gained here, to be sure, but still -- insane.

I, of course, take offense to that and am not insane. I have five distinct voices in my head which will attest to that.

Caveat Emperor
07-13-2007, 07:49 AM
a) I don't know how anyone ever gets married, and b) everyone is insane.

I guess the bottom line is that, at the end of the day, the only thing worse than being insane is having to be insane all by yourself.

;)

Ltlabner
07-13-2007, 08:04 AM
I don't know how anyone ever gets married

Being married isn't all that difficult really. I think some people really, really, really spend too much time over thinking it.

Don't get me wrong, putting the other persons needs first, loving them more than you love yourself, realizing you don't have to be in controll all the time, and admitting to yourself that you aint perfect is very difficult in practice. But those are all "me" problems, not "marriage" problems.

But I think people tend to over-analyize to death all the "what if's" of marriage and it paralizes them. What a silly waste of time. Thinking things through and making a rational decision is one thing. Trying to game play out every day of a 30+ year marraige is quite another.

GAC
07-13-2007, 09:14 AM
Selfishness destroys more marriages IMHO. Young people need to be better prepared of what it involves prior to going in. It's not about "Me" anymore as much as it's about "We". If anyone has a hard time grasping that, then yeah, they probably shouldn't get married.

Prince Charming or Cinderella don't exist, except in the movies.

And men need to start thinking with the right head. ;)

"And that's all I have to say about that"

http://www.reellifewisdom.com/files/images/Forrest&#37;20III.jpg

deltachi8
07-13-2007, 11:30 AM
steel, terrific write up

M2
07-13-2007, 11:55 AM
My main bit of marital advice is character and maturity are crucial. Marry an adult.

This of course demands that you yourself be an adult and be able to recognize it in others.

vaticanplum
07-13-2007, 12:28 PM
Selfishness destroys more marriages IMHO. Young people need to be better prepared of what it involves prior to going in. It's not about "Me" anymore as much as it's about "We". If anyone has a hard time grasping that, then yeah, they probably shouldn't get married.

Prince Charming or Cinderella don't exist, except in the movies.

And men need to start thinking with the right head. ;)

"And that's all I have to say about that"

You misunderstand me. I have almost no trouble comprehending how people STAY married. I only surround myself with stable people; those who are married are great at it, those who aren't would or will be.

I just can't comprehend how people GET there in the first place.

And yes, Steel, great post. You should be a therapist and/or greeting card maker.

Roy Tucker
07-13-2007, 01:00 PM
My main bit of marital advice is character and maturity are crucial. Marry an adult.

This of course demands that you yourself be an adult and be able to recognize it in others.

This may seem to be common sense, but it is an extremely important point.

I got married the first time when I was 21. It didn't last because both she and I weren't really ready to do the things necessary for a successful marriage. We just didn't know it when we got married. Lots of life experiences of how *not* to conduct a marriage.

The second time I got married was when I was 32. I was much more adult and grown-up, but even then, it took a year or so for my rougher edges to get sanded down to where I was a decent husband. And even that is an on-going process. It probably took me 5 years to become a *good* husband.

And it's all the things that Steel listed. Like a lot of things in life, once you figure something out, you wonder why it took you so long to come to an all-so-apparent conclusion. I know what it takes to make a successful marriage and I can tell people what those things are. It just takes a long damn time to be ready to hear those things.

And don't get me started on becoming a parent.

wheels
07-13-2007, 05:33 PM
You misunderstand me. I have almost no trouble comprehending how people STAY married. I only surround myself with stable people; those who are married are great at it, those who aren't would or will be.

I just can't comprehend how people GET there in the first place.

And yes, Steel, great post. You should be a therapist and/or greeting card maker.


Now, see....This got me to thinking.

What does it mean to be stable?

Believe it or not, I'm pretty much a worker. I'm involved in two different businesses, with a third in the works, and a fourth on the not too distant horizon (a Tiki Bar/bowling alley !). I also have NEVER missed a day of work due to illness etc.

Yeah, I can cut loose with the best of them, but for the most part, I'm a nose to the grindstone kinda guy, and I always honor my commitments.

You'd think that sounds pretty good, and admirable, but it's always been the main sticking point in past relationships. I've heard things like "You're TOO dependable", or "You're not as wild as I thought you were", or my all time favorite "You're too nice...Why haven't you ever gotten drunk and shoved me around?".

It really frosts me when things I hold dear about myself are used against me in the end....And why do they always wait three or four years to tell me about it?

I guess it's not really my workman-like qualities that bite me, it's the fact that my outwardly gregarious manner masks them, and them blammo! They realize it later in the game, and I'm left with nothing but my work.

What really stinks is that I love kids, but I'll probably never have one.

So what does "stable" really mean?

OldRightHander
07-13-2007, 05:36 PM
I just can't comprehend how people GET there in the first place.


I think when you're in that infatuation stage, you have blinders on to a degree and you don't see the stuff that drives you crazy until after the honeymoon. By then, you're hooked, so you might as well make the most of it. A big key to a successful marriage is forgiveness. You have to be willing to offer it and beg for it.

SunDeck
07-13-2007, 05:49 PM
And don't get me started on becoming a parent.

Word, Roy.
Having kids- now that's something to test the strength of a marriage. You and the spouse at least got to pick each other, but the kids? You have no choice but to accept the people who are assigned to you.

As for getting married, I'll just say this- I got lucky. There's no way I should have ended up as luckily as I did. Married into the deep end of the gene pool, found a person who is mature and tolerant enough to allow me to grow up, too.
I'm thankful every day that her boyfriend fell off that bridge.

westofyou
07-13-2007, 05:51 PM
"You're too nice...Why haven't you ever gotten drunk and shoved me around?".


My wife has friend who told her... "Everybody's boyfriend steals from them."

My wife said....Uh Huh.....

vaticanplum
07-13-2007, 05:56 PM
Now, see....This got me to thinking.

What does it mean to be stable?

Believe it or not, I'm pretty much a worker. I'm involved in two different businesses, with a third in the works, and a fourth on the not too distant horizon (a Tiki Bar/bowling alley !). I also have NEVER missed a day of work due to illness etc.

Yeah, I can cut loose with the best of them, but for the most part, I'm a nose to the grindstone kinda guy, and I always honor my commitments.

You'd think that sounds pretty good, and admirable, but it's always been the main sticking point in past relationships. I've heard things like "You're TOO dependable", or "You're not as wild as I thought you were", or my all time favorite "You're too nice...Why haven't you ever gotten drunk and shoved me around?".

It really frosts me when things I hold dear about myself are used against me in the end....And why do they always wait three or four years to tell me about it?

I guess it's not really my workman-like qualities that bite me, it's the fact that my outwardly gregarious manner masks them, and them blammo! They realize it later in the game, and I'm left with nothing but my work.

What really stinks is that I love kids, but I'll probably never have one.

So what does "stable" really mean?

A ton of things, probably. I think you're talking about a different kind of stable than I was. I guess I meant something a little more esoteric: stable of heart and mind, strong character, conviction in what they believe is right with action to back it up, passion for people and work that matter to them, an ability to keep to what's important to them without being too affected by people who don't matter to them, usually a healthy dose of optimism to help them appreciate and enjoy all matters of life...and, all that said, an understanding that things can still surprise and shake you occasionally. It sounds like a ridiculously tall order, but I am literally surrounded by these people. And these people are still in many ways quite different from each other. Some of them work in offices, some of them flit about the world and never stay in a particular job for more than six months at a time. That sounds like the kind of stability you're referring to. That's not quite the kind I'm talking about. The "stable" (by my definition) people I know vary greatly in personality and ability to party and so forth (although in thinking about it, I do think most of them have a strong work ethic), but every single one of them has near-ideal relationships with friends, family and lovers.

Still doesn't stop me from wondering, when reading through this thead, how anybody surpasses all the ridiculousness of courtship, let alone two people managing to do so in the same place at the same time.

vaticanplum
07-13-2007, 05:59 PM
Word, Roy.
Having kids- now that's something to test the strength of a marriage. You and the spouse at least got to pick each other, but the kids? You have no choice but to accept the people who are assigned to you.

As for getting married, I'll just say this- I got lucky. There's no way I should have ended up as luckily as I did. Married into the deep end of the gene pool, found a person who is mature and tolerant enough to allow me to grow up, too.
I'm thankful every day that her boyfriend fell off that bridge.

Oh, is that how the police decided to phrase it in the report? ;)

Falls City Beer
07-13-2007, 06:05 PM
Still doesn't stop me from wondering, when reading through this thead, how anybody surpasses all the ridiculousness of courtship, let alone two people managing to do so in the same place at the same time.

Well, this presupposes two things--that there must be "courtship" proper and that if it exists it's ridiculous.

My wife asked me to marry her. After we'd been friends, lovers, housemates for 7 years (that is, essentially married).

But we've been staunchly businesslike in our approach to marriage--it's what's preserved the actual romantic side of our relationship. I realize that sounds paradoxical, but, really, love is, if nothing else, transgressive and ineluctable.

westofyou
07-13-2007, 06:11 PM
My wife asked me to marry her. After we'd been friends, lovers, housemates for 7 years (that is, essentially married).

I didn't dive into marriage myself, we did 12 years together before we got married in Vegas (alone) 7 living together. By the time we got married we were already hitched in the eyes of the California courts.

wheels
07-13-2007, 06:14 PM
A ton of things, probably. I think you're talking about a different kind of stable than I was. I guess I meant something a little more esoteric: stable of heart and mind, strong character, conviction in what they believe is right with action to back it up, passion for people and work that matter to them, an ability to keep to what's important to them without being too affected by people who don't matter to them, usually a healthy dose of optimism to help them appreciate and enjoy all matters of life...and, all that said, an understanding that things can still surprise and shake you occasionally. It sounds like a ridiculously tall order, but I am literally surrounded by these people. And these people are still in many ways quite different from each other. Some of them work in offices, some of them flit about the world and never stay in a particular job for more than six months at a time. That sounds like the kind of stability you're referring to. That's not quite the kind I'm talking about. The "stable" (by my definition) people I know vary greatly in personality and ability to party and so forth (although in thinking about it, I do think most of them have a strong work ethic), but every single one of them has near-ideal relationships with friends, family and lovers.

Still doesn't stop me from wondering, when reading through this thead, how anybody surpasses all the ridiculousness of courtship, let alone two people managing to do so in the same place at the same time.


I totally agree with you.

I don't wanna have to go through the whole interview process again, and I really think I'm giving up on the whole thing. My free time is far too precious to be wasted on that kinda nonsense.

I'm happy enough with my friends and my folks that I don't have any emotional voids that need to be filled.

*Now, I'm gonna use a little gallows humor here, if that's okay.*

My only Consideration is that even though I live a stone's throw from OSU hospital, I could have a heart attack (not bloody likely, seeing as how I'm in totally bad arsed shape), or something and nobody would know I was dead. I'm gonna be just like Mary Provost, a snack for a hungry dog.

Sigh.:p:

GAC
07-13-2007, 07:00 PM
Now, see....This got me to thinking.

What does it mean to be stable?

Believe it or not, I'm pretty much a worker. I'm involved in two different businesses, with a third in the works, and a fourth on the not too distant horizon (a Tiki Bar/bowling alley !). I also have NEVER missed a day of work due to illness etc.

Yeah, I can cut loose with the best of them, but for the most part, I'm a nose to the grindstone kinda guy, and I always honor my commitments.

You'd think that sounds pretty good, and admirable, but it's always been the main sticking point in past relationships. I've heard things like "You're TOO dependable", or "You're not as wild as I thought you were", or my all time favorite "You're too nice...Why haven't you ever gotten drunk and shoved me around?".

It really frosts me when things I hold dear about myself are used against me in the end....And why do they always wait three or four years to tell me about it?

I guess it's not really my workman-like qualities that bite me, it's the fact that my outwardly gregarious manner masks them, and them blammo! They realize it later in the game, and I'm left with nothing but my work.

What really stinks is that I love kids, but I'll probably never have one.

So what does "stable" really mean?

Ask my wife and kids (and 2/3 of the neighborhood) - they'll tell you I'm not stable. Even the neighbor's cats stay out of my yard when I'm outside. :mooner:

Ltlabner
07-13-2007, 08:43 PM
What really stinks is that I love kids, but I'll probably never have one.

Dude. You are what? 32 or 33 acording to your profile. Legions of people get married in their mid to late 30's and into their 40's. You aren't even close to "not ever going to have kids" terrritory.

Subject change, not directed to Wheels....There's a world of difference between "considering the other person" and being "totally focused on the other persons needs to the detriment of your own and being viewed as a pushover". Sometimes, I think, guys error way to much to the "nice guy" side and come off needy when our intent is to be nice.

It's a fine line between putting the other persons needs before yours and forfeiting your needs inplace of the other persons. To me personally, that's anti-attractive.

RedsBaron
07-13-2007, 09:46 PM
Dude. You are what? 32 or 33 acording to your profile. Legions of people get married in their mid to late 30's and into their 40's. You aren't even close to "not ever going to have kids" terrritory.



I was 31 when I got married. I was 35, 37 and almost 42 when my sons were born.
Of course, I didn't have any gray hair until after I became a dad.