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UPRedsFan
12-17-2006, 04:01 PM
This seems to be the most obvious deal for Krivsky to make. We need a rh bat in the lineup who can platoon with Hatt and play some outfield when Griffey or Dunn need to rest. Wilson fits the bill very well. What's taking so long Wayne?!?!?!?!

Or could the plan be to promote Votto early and let him play against lhp?

edabbs44
12-17-2006, 04:03 PM
This seems to be the most obvious deal for Krivsky to make. We need a rh bat in the lineup who can platoon with Hatt and play some outfield when Griffey or Dunn need to rest. Wilson fits the bill very well. What's taking so long Wayne?!?!?!?!

Or could the plan be to promote Votto early and let him play against lhp?

If that happens, I would probably take a sabbatical from being a Reds fan. He's a lefty.

Falls City Beer
12-17-2006, 04:03 PM
This seems to be the most obvious deal for Krivsky to make. We need a rh bat in the lineup who can platoon with Hatt and play some outfield when Griffey or Dunn need to rest. Wilson fits the bill very well. What's taking so long Wayne?!?!?!?!

Or could the plan be to promote Votto early and let him play against lhp?

If I had to guess, I'd say he's getting a bunch of offers from many suitors, and is therefore in the process of weighing them.

I seriously doubt the Reds are the highest bidder; and I doubt he'll want to play for what is essentially Pittsburgh Part II.

Spring~Fields
12-17-2006, 04:06 PM
I seriously doubt the Reds are the highest bidder; and I doubt he'll want to play for what is essentially Pittsburgh Part II.

I thought that was coming out in 2008 :laugh: While the 07 version is the we are building for 2003 remakes. ;)

marcshoe
12-17-2006, 04:47 PM
As bad as the Reds may be in 2007, they have not sunk to the level of the Pirates, who no longer even pretend they can see contention in the distance. The Pirates were the first team I rooted for, back in '71, and I still have a certain fondness for them and a bit of sadness at what they've become. Although things look bleak at the moment, I can see the Reds possibly making a couple of moves and competing, and the team has an owner who I believe wants to compete. I can say neither of these things about the Pirates.

Falls City Beer
12-17-2006, 04:51 PM
As bad as the Reds may be in 2007, they have not sunk to the level of the Pirates, who no longer even pretend they can see contention in the distance. The Pirates were the first team I rooted for, back in '71, and I still have a certain fondness for them and a bit of sadness at what they've become. Although things look bleak at the moment, I can see the Reds possibly making a couple of moves and competing, and the team has an owner who I believe wants to compete. I can say neither of these things about the Pirates.

My point really isn't to say that the Reds are the Pirates, but rather that the last six years could cause a player to see the two franchises as similar. Rightly or wrongly. I don't think players necessarily parse the finer points that distinguish the two franchises. For nearly as long as Craig Wilson's played MLB, the Reds have been a dog of a franchise, and I imagine that's how a guy like Wilson sees them.

Ltlabner
12-17-2006, 05:22 PM
My point really isn't to say that the Reds are the Pirates, but rather that the last six years could cause a player to see the two franchises as similar. Rightly or wrongly. I don't think players necessarily parse the finer points that distinguish the two franchises. For nearly as long as Craig Wilson's played MLB, the Reds have been a dog of a franchise, and I imagine that's how a guy like Wilson sees them.

Good point FCB. Amoung the myrid other considerations a FA might have (money, contract length, role on the team, team location) I think most players would look at a chance to play on the Red Sox/Yankees much differently than say the Rockies, Reds, Pirates, Royals. They are human and if given a choice, I'd think they'd want to be on a team with more glitz and prestige, along with a better chance of being in the post season.

Edd Roush
12-17-2006, 05:37 PM
Good point FCB. Amoung the myrid other considerations a FA might have (money, contract length, role on the team, team location) I think most players would look at a chance to play on the Red Sox/Yankees much differently than say the Rockies, Reds, Pirates, Royals. They are human and if given a choice, I'd think they'd want to be on a team with more glitz and prestige, along with a better chance of being in the post season.

However, with the Reds being less prestigious, he has less pressure on him to produce and most likely will have a better opportunity at receiving more at-bats. The problem with this being Craig Wilson is that he played for the Pirates for the majority of his career and perhaps has had enough of the little pressure/high at-bat thing. Either way, I hope the Reds can reel him in and Krivsky can do something to significantly improve his team.

Dracodave
12-17-2006, 05:41 PM
However, with the Reds being less prestigious, he has less pressure on him to produce and most likely will have a better opportunity at receiving more at-bats. The problem with this being Craig Wilson is that he played for the Pirates for the majority of his career and perhaps has had enough of the little pressure/high at-bat thing. Either way, I hope the Reds can reel him in and Krivsky can do something to significantly improve his team.



You..asked too much!

Krivsky do something?! OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!!! :p:

Patpacillosjock
12-17-2006, 05:44 PM
However, with the Reds being less prestigious, he has less pressure on him to produce and most likely will have a better opportunity at receiving more at-bats. The problem with this being Craig Wilson is that he played for the Pirates for the majority of his career and perhaps has had enough of the little pressure/high at-bat thing. Either way, I hope the Reds can reel him in and Krivsky can do something to significantly improve his team.

It's a sad state of affair when my beloved Cincinnati Reds are viewed as being in the lower-tier of Major League ballclubs.

Edd Roush
12-17-2006, 06:04 PM
It's a sad state of affair when my beloved Cincinnati Reds are viewed as being in the lower-tier of Major League ballclubs.

Yup, but that's what happens when your team hasn't been in the playoffs for a decade. I try to look through the rose-colored glasses as much as possible, but it's time for Castellini to put his money where his mouth his. I plan on giving him time, but getting Craig Wilson would make my day. A great Christmas present for any Reds fan :beerme:

Spring~Fields
12-17-2006, 06:09 PM
Good point FCB. Amoung the myrid other considerations a FA might have (money, contract length, role on the team, team location) I think most players would look at a chance to play on the Red Sox/Yankees much differently than say the Rockies, Reds, Pirates, Royals. They are human and if given a choice, I'd think they'd want to be on a team with more glitz and prestige, along with a better chance of being in the post season.

That is why I think that Krivsky better be watching not only today but the near future. I can see the Reds core being gone for the very reasons you list above, when their contracts give them the chance to leave. Dunn, Freel, Harang, Arroyo, Milton, Lohse and even Griffey. Which will be too much for the poor budget constrained Reds to make up for.

Spitball
12-17-2006, 09:48 PM
This seems to be the most obvious deal for Krivsky to make. We need a rh bat in the lineup who can platoon with Hatt and play some outfield when Griffey or Dunn need to rest. Wilson fits the bill very well. What's taking so long Wayne?!?!?!?!

It probably isn't about Wayne at this point. I'm guessing Wilson is shopping for a team that is not making promises that include words like "platoon" and "play some".

Patrick Bateman
12-17-2006, 10:21 PM
Wilson will play where the money is greatest, and where he thinks he can play the most (so as to imcrease his valus later on).

The advantage that Wilson might see in Cincy on a 1 year deal is his ability to hit in GABP and use that to increase his value.

wheels
12-17-2006, 10:22 PM
I don't think Wilson should be considered a part time player.

Wayne should just tell him that he thinks he's got value at two positions and that he plans on maximizing that.

He could use Ryan Freel as an example.

There's not a better fit out there if you ask me, and I don't think he'll command much in the way of dough.

Give him that extra year that other clubs aren't offering, give him a little more than other clubs might be offering, up the incentives....There are ways to get a guy like him, just find out what itch he needs scratched and work that angle.

Get him to Cincinnati pronto.

Dracodave
12-17-2006, 10:23 PM
Wilson will play where the money is greatest, and where he thinks he can play the most (so as to imcrease his valus later on).

The advantage that Wilson might see in Cincy on a 1 year deal is his ability to hit in GABP and use that to increase his value.

I was also thinking if he sees that value here...and then we see how Rich does outside..

He may have fear of leaving the Reds because his stats go down.

Then we go :mooner: and get draft picks.

Muaahahahahahaha!!!

wheels
12-17-2006, 10:25 PM
I was also thinking if he sees that value here...and then we see how Rich does outside..

He may have fear of leaving the Reds because his stats go down.

Then we go :mooner: and get draft picks.

Muaahahahahahaha!!!


You could also use Rich Aurilia as another example.

"Look at the numbers Rich Aurilia put up here....Just imagine what YOU could do!"

Dracodave
12-17-2006, 10:30 PM
You could also use Rich Aurilia as another example.

"Look at the numbers Rich Aurilia put up here....Just imagine what YOU could do!"

Sell him on the idea that two years with the Reds will make him the next best thing since sliced bread. Since apparentally it did that with Rich.

wheels
12-17-2006, 10:48 PM
Sell him on the idea that two years with the Reds will make him the next best thing since sliced bread. Since apparentally it did that with Rich.

Craig Wilson has .915 OPS at Great American Ballpark.

Too bad Wayne probably doesn't know or want to know this little tidbit.

edabbs44
12-17-2006, 11:12 PM
Craig Wilson has .915 OPS at Great American Ballpark.

Too bad Wayne probably doesn't know or want to know this little tidbit.

If only he could play for the Reds and face their pitching staff also! :)

wheels
12-17-2006, 11:21 PM
If only he could play for the Reds and face their pitching staff also! :)

I was hoping no one would mention that.;)

Spitball
12-18-2006, 12:08 AM
Craig Wilson has .915 OPS at Great American Ballpark.

Too bad Wayne probably doesn't know or want to know this little tidbit.

So these free agents don't have free will, and it is all about Wayne not wanting them or knowing their talent? This is getting rediculous.

BoydsOfSummer
01-18-2007, 07:23 PM
The Atlanta Braves today agreed to terms with free-agent outfielder/first baseman Craig Wilson on a one-year contract for the 2007 season. Financial terms of the deal were not announced.

Wilson, 30, played his first five Major League seasons with the Pittsburgh Pirates before splitting the 2006 campaign between Pittsburgh and the New York Yankees. His combined totals last season included a .251 batting average with 17 home runs and 49 RBI in 125 games. Wilson was traded to New York on July 31 in exchange for right-handed pitcher Shawn Chacon.
Looks like the Braves have found themselves some help at first base to replace Adam LaRoche. Read more here.


From Baseball Digest Daily

Cyclone792
01-18-2007, 07:35 PM
Reports I've heard indicate that Wilson signed a one year, $1 million deal. If that's true, that's an absolutely phenomenal deal for the Braves.

As for Wayne Krivsky, well ... yea ... I'm not even going to go there.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 08:01 PM
Reports I've heard indicate that Wilson signed a one year, $1 million deal. If that's true, that's an absolutely phenomenal deal for the Braves.

As for Wayne Krivsky, well ... yea ... I'm not even going to go there.

As I get older I begin to believe that certain people just have "it," that special something that can't be taught. Schuerholz has "it." And very few other GMs do.

You kind of get the feeling that if Wayne were offered Wilson for free, he'd pass. Wayne = the opposite of "it."

dsmith421
01-18-2007, 08:13 PM
Reports I've heard indicate that Wilson signed a one year, $1 million deal. If that's true, that's an absolutely phenomenal deal for the Braves.


But Jeff Conine is 100 years old and plays the game the right way...

Also, this free agent market is so out of control, the Reds can't hope to compete. There simply isn't a single player out there the Reds could have signed that would have helped the team. Head explodes.

Patrick Bateman
01-18-2007, 08:13 PM
He ended up with a 1 year 2M deal. He must have really wanted to play in Atlanta, otherwise just about every other team is really undervalueing Wilson, especially the Reds.

Ltlabner
01-18-2007, 08:26 PM
Wilson

AB HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG
Career 1952 98 290 14 .265 .354 .480


Conine

SPLIT AB HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG
Career 6701 208 1034 50 .286 .348 .445

Assuming Wilson would even entertain playing in Cincy (which should be considered part of the equation) I definatley wish Wayne would have been able to real in Wilson over Conine. He's 10 years younger, has a higher OPS (.834 vs Conines .793), hits a homer about every 20 at bats (vs Conines about every 32 ABs) and the money/contract is basically the same.

Again, I'll give Wayne the benefit of the doubt that perhaps Wilson hates Cincinnati or his agent was a real jerk. But I can't give him the benefit of the doubt about pulling the trigger so quickly on Conine which blocked even the possibility of getting Wilson.

I don't know Wilson's history so maybe he can't play OF and give the felxibility to play 1B & OF, but with Freel, Deno, Crosby and Hopper as options I'd rank flexibility pretty low on the "positive attributes" list.

lollipopcurve
01-18-2007, 08:28 PM
just about every other team is really undervalueing Wilson, especially the Reds.

Not sure why the Reds are especially guilty here...

Cyclone792
01-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Yep, turns out it was $2 million, which is still a heckuva steal. Hmmm ... let's see here ...

Craig Wilson batted .260/.348/.468/.816 overall from 2004-06
Jeff Conine batted .282/.343/.413/.756 overall from 2004-06
Craig Wilson batted .272/.378/.497/.875 vs. LHP from 2004-06
Jeff Conine batted .269/.352/.419/.771 vs. LHP from 2004-06
Craig Wilson batted .255/.337/.458/.795 vs. RHP from 2004-06
Jeff Conine batted .286/.341/.410/.751 vs. RHP from 2004-06

John Schuerholz will pay Craig Wilson $2 million in 2007 while Wayne Krivsky is paying Jeff Conine $2 million in 2007. Craig Wilson also happens to be 30-years-old whereas Jeff Conine is 40-years-old.

Fantastic job, Wayne.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2735465



ATLANTA -- Craig Wilson, who could contend for playing time or a starting job in first base or left field, agreed Thursday to a $2 million, one-year contract with the Atlanta Braves.

Wilson, 30, hit .251 with 17 homers and 49 RBIs last season for the Pittsburgh Pirates and New York Yankees, who acquired him July 31 for pitcher Shawn Chacon.

Wilson can earn an additional $100,000 in performance bonuses based on plate appearances, sources tell ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick.

Atlanta has an opening at first base after agreeing Wednesday to trade Adam LaRoche to the Pirates for reliever Mike Gonzalez in a four-player deal.

Wilson could platoon with left-handed hitting Scott Thorman at first base. The 25-year-old Thorman played for Triple-A Richmond and Atlanta in 2006. Wilson also get playing opportunities in left field, where the Braves currently have a platoon of Ryan Langerhans and Matt Diaz.

Wilson has a .265 career batting average in six seasons. He has played 314 games in the outfield and 262 games at first base and has experience as a catcher.

In addition to his salary, he can earn $100,000 in performance bonuses: $25,000 each for 400, 425, 450 and 475 plate appearances.

lollipopcurve
01-18-2007, 08:31 PM
John Schuerholz will pay Craig Wilson $2 million in 2007 while Wayne Krivsky is paying Jeff Conine $2 million in 2007. Craig Wilson also happens to be 30-years-old whereas Jeff Conine is 40-years-old.

Fantastic job, Wayne.

My guess is that Wilson had no interest in coming to Cincinnati, and Krivsky knew it.

reds44
01-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Maybe Wilson didn't want to come here.

Ltlabner
01-18-2007, 08:37 PM
Maybe Wilson didn't want to come here.

I cut WayneO some slack because we don't know that little tidbit. If the dude doesn't want to play here, then he doesn't.

On the other hand, snagging Conine when he likely could have been acquired later in the off-season (or at least an equivlent player) most certinally prevented Wilson from being signed.

Z-Fly
01-18-2007, 08:44 PM
This makes me want to pull my hair out. He was the perfect fit! I know he would probably rather play in ATL., but money talks. If I was the reds GM, I think I would have doubled that contract in $. Plus he could have inflated his stats at GABP.

KoryMac5
01-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Wilson was out their on the market for quite sometime probably because he wanted a starting job. When the Atlanta trade opened a spot for him he more than likely jumped at the opportunity because nothing else was out there.

Z-Fly
01-18-2007, 08:49 PM
Wilson was out their on the market for quite sometime probably because he wanted a starting job. When the Atlanta trade opened a spot for him he more than likely jumped at the opportunity because nothing else was out there.

I know the reds job wasn't a "starting" job. But I am sure, like rich, he would of played nearly every day.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 08:53 PM
We always seem to forget that the Free Agent gets to choose where he wants to play.

Im guess free agents break down teams into 4 sections somewhat:
1. Teams I would not play for.
2. Teams that would have to over pay.
3. Teams I would take a pay cut.
4. Teams I would play for at market value

If I personally was a free agent who had multiple teams after me (like Wilson was) but not a major free agent that can set my own price. Then here is how I would break down the for areas:
1. Bos, LAD, LAA, SF
2. Rest of the West Coast Teams, KC, Tor, Bal, NYY, NYM
3. Cin, TB, StL,
4. Rest of the teams.

Im guessing the Reds either fell into section 2 or 4 for Wilson but i dont know for sure. And I think everyone would agree that Wilson is not worth overpaying for.

After I came up with that base list of teams I would bring other things into play other than pay and location (winning, playing time, coaches, Front Office, stadium, etc.) Just from that list right there odds are only two of those things favored the Reds over some of the other teams (playing time and stadium). My guess is Wilson would have had be be swept off his feet to come to Cincinnati. And I personally am not in favor of a 2-3 year deal for a total of $8-12 million.

Lets face it.....unless you have a tie to the Cincinnati Reds then it does not look that appealing of a place to play right now.

Ltlabner
01-18-2007, 08:59 PM
My guess is Wilson would have had be be swept off his feet to come to Cincinnati. And I personally am not will to be in favor of a 2-3 year deal for a total of $8-14 million.

Lets face it.....unless you have a tie to the Cincinnati Reds then it does not look that appealing of a place to play right now.

But would it have taken that sort of deal to "sweep him off his feet". What about 1 year $4m ? Would that have gotten his attention without overpaying by some crazy amount? Or even 2 years at $2.5 mil? The age difference alone is worth overpaying by a reasonable amount, much less the difference in production.

I freely admit I am (1) arm-chair GM'ing (2) assuming facts not in evidence.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 09:07 PM
But would it have taken that sort of deal to "sweep him off his feet". What about 1 year $4m ? Would that have gotten his attention without overpaying by some crazy amount? Or even 2 years at $2.5 mil? The age difference alone is worth overpaying by a reasonable amount, much less the difference in production.

I freely admit I am (1) arm-chair GM'ing (2) assuming facts not in evidence.

I dont see Krivsky overpaying for anyone at all no matter what the situations are. He sees how overpaying cost a team like the Reds (LaRue, Griffey, Milton). Gil Meche did this exact thing to the Royals. Wilson probably didnt demand that much extra but I would guess Wilson wasnt coming to Cincinnati for less than a 2-year deal and I personally believe Krivsky isnt going to block Votto at 1B so I think a 2-year deal is out of the question.

wheels
01-18-2007, 09:10 PM
Always the same pat excuse.

"(name of desired FA) probably didn't want to play for the Reds..."

That's just as much conjecture as my opinion that if Wayne really wanted the guy, he'd have gone after him and signed him.

You've got to hold these GM's to higher standards. It's a losing mindset to just throw up the hands.

He feeds me dreck and I'm supposed to ask for more because I'm told that's all there is.

I'm not buying it.

Craig Wilson for two million measely dollars.

Good Night Nurse.

Ltlabner
01-18-2007, 09:12 PM
I dont see Krivsky overpaying for anyone at all no matter what the situations are. He sees how overpaying cost a team like the Reds (LaRue, Griffey, Milton). Gil Meche did this exact thing to the Royals. Wilson probably didnt demand that much extra but I would guess Wilson wasnt coming to Cincinnati for less than a 2-year deal and I personally believe Krivsky isnt going to block Votto at 1B so I think a 2-year deal is out of the question.

Oh, I agree about handing out Milton-esque deals and how they can screw a franchise for many years to come. I've ranted about it many times.

But I think there is a difference between a Milton-esque deal and "slightly overpaying". You'd have to examine it on a case by case basis so it's hard to define what that means. But I'd hardly classify an extra $2m (as in my example) as anchoring the team.

You raise an interesting point about blocking Votto but if that's the case, you turn Wilson to another team after Votto proves himself (have to believe he'd be tradeable) or utilize Wilson elsewhere (if possible) on the team.

Tom Servo
01-18-2007, 09:13 PM
I'm not a huge Craig Wilson guy but for two million I would have driven to his house and brought him to Wayne myself. That's a great deal for the Braves, and a real missed oppurtunity by the Reds.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 09:13 PM
Always the same pat excuse.

"(name of desired FA) probably didn't want to play for the Reds..."

That's just as much conjecture as my opinion that if Wayne really wanted the guy, he'd have gone after him and signed him.

You've got to hold these GM's to higher standards. It's a losing mindset to just throw up the hands.

He feeds me dreck and I'm supposed to ask for more because I'm told that's all there is.

I'm not buying it.

Craig Wilson for two million measely dollars.

Good Night Nurse.

One reason why a Free Agent would want to come and play for the Cincinnati Reds?

wheels
01-18-2007, 09:15 PM
One reason why a Free Agent would want to come and play for the Cincinnati Reds?


Hitters park.

Craig Wilson kills at GAB.

Cyclone792
01-18-2007, 09:16 PM
Lets face it.....unless you have a tie to the Cincinnati Reds then it does not look that appealing of a place to play right now.

One of the charges of Bob, Wayne, and the entire Reds front office regime is to create an environment that IS an appealing place to play. If you expect to put a winner on the field - and with the language I've heard from Bob that sure as heck seems to be his expectation - then you better darn well be an appealing place for players, coaches, executives, etc.

Since 2001, the Reds average season is 73-89, and that includes going through three general managers and four managers during that time span.

Meanwhile, what's the expectation for 2007? Another 75 wins? It sure seems that way to me. Then what's going to be the excuse heading into 2008 if an ascension into contention isn't made? Is it still going to be that Cincinnati isn't an appealing place to play? At some point there needs to be some progress, and if the best progress for the 2007 offseason is the signing of Alex Gonzalez then I'm not necessarily sure I'd even phrase it "progress" at all.

Listen, I have no idea if Craig Wilson had even an inkling of an interest to sign here. It's possible that he didn't. But when I see one of the game's best general managers sign an undervalued guy to a one year, $2 million contract in this market with not even a guarantee of a starting spot, it makes me wonder if a little bit more coin could have easily persuaded Wilson to play in Cincinnati rather than Atlanta.

Ltlabner
01-18-2007, 09:16 PM
Frankly, I'd also have to wonder about the "didn't want to play in Cincinnati" part of the equation. The money wasn't the issue and the Braves are not exactly the powerhouse they once were so it wasn't that he wanted to be on a super competitive team.

Does he have close personal ties to the Atlanta area? Maybe has a bond with other players there or a particular coach/manager?

I'll give Wayne some leeway here, but at some point I'd think the money would outweigh the idea of not likeing a particular city. Especially considering the amount of time they actually spend in said city. I mean, does anybody really think Adam Dunn's can't wait to get back to Cincinnati and check out the new trolley system? No, but for the paycheck, living in Lytle Tower aint so bad.

wheels
01-18-2007, 09:18 PM
One of the charges of Bob, Wayne, and the entire Reds front office regime is to create an environment that IS an appealing place to play. If you expect to put a winner on the field - and with the language I've heard from Bob that sure as heck seems to be his expectation - then you better darn well be an appealing place for players, coaches, executives, etc.

Since 2001, the Reds average season is 73-89, and that includes going through three general managers and four managers during that time span.

Meanwhile, what's the expectation for 2007? Another 75 wins? It sure seems that way to me. Then what's going to be the excuse heading into 2008 if an ascension into contention isn't made? Is it still going to be that Cincinnati isn't an appealing place to play? At some point there needs to be some progress, and if the best progress for the 2007 offseason is the signing of Alex Gonzalez then I'm not necessarily sure I'd even phrase it "progress" at all.

Listen, I have no idea if Craig Wilson had even an inkling of an interest to sign here. It's possible that he didn't. But when I see one of the game's best general managers sign an undervalued guy to a one year, $2 million contract in this market while not even guarantee him a starting spot, it makes me wonder if a little bit more coin could have easily persuaded Wilson to play in Cincinnati rather than Atlanta.

Harumph!:beerme:

It's always going to be the same until someone changes it.

Wayne is not that guy.

He's not dynamic enough.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 09:21 PM
Wilson is going to go somewhere where he can cash in on a bigger contract next year. You earn a bigger contract in the playoffs or a playoff run not hitting homeruns at a well know hitters park in june.

And im not bringing into the fact that maybe he wants to win above all things. If that has any part at all then hes not coming to Cincinnati for a few years no matter what the price is.

Ltlabner
01-18-2007, 09:23 PM
And im not bringing into the fact that maybe he wants to win above all things. If that has any part at all then hes not coming to Cincinnati for a few years no matter what the price is.

But aren't the Braves in decline ? If so, that sorta bursts the "I want to play on a winner" bubble.

But maybe I've got that mixed up. After the day I've had, it's certinally possible.

wheels
01-18-2007, 09:24 PM
Wilson is going to go somewhere where he can cash in on a bigger contract next year. You earn a bigger contract in the playoffs or a playoff run not hitting homeruns at a well know hitters park in june.

And im not bringing into the fact that maybe he wants to win above all things. If that has any part at all then hes not coming to Cincinnati for a few years no matter what the price is.

The Braves aren't exactly at the apex of their dominance.

The guy hasn't even been promised a starting job.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 09:31 PM
Braves have the best bullpen in the East if not the NL and you might argue the Marlins have better starters and thats it. If they trade Andruw Jones for a boat load of talent during the year then they will be right back on the same track they are used to. Braves are one maybe two pieces away contention year in and year out again. The Reds have only one piece set in place and hes in AAA.

wheels
01-18-2007, 09:44 PM
Braves have the best bullpen in the East if not the NL and you might argue the Marlins have better starters and thats it. If they trade Andruw Jones for a boat load of talent during the year then they will be right back on the same track they are used to. Braves are one maybe two pieces away contention year in and year out again. The Reds have only one piece set in place and hes in AAA.


The guy got signed on a one year deal for TWO MILLION dollars, without being promised a starting job, in a bloated market.

That doesn't sound like a guy that had a whole lot of options to me, nor does it sound like a guy who had a particular infatuation with playing for the Braves. Remember, it's a one year deal.

If you were finally heading to a place you've wanted to play your whole life, would you settle on a one year deal?

Sounds to me like Wilson was somewhat desperate for a deal (I have no idea why), and the Reds decided that Jeff Conine was more attractive.

I know it's a bit of a kick in the taint to think about, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.

In WayneO's brain, Jeff Conine is a better player than Craig Wilson.

Think about that.

MartyFan
01-18-2007, 09:53 PM
Maybe one of the objectives Special K wants is for the veterans he brings in to have some sort of Post Season experience? None of our in house vets really do so the signings and trades may bring that mindset to the team...I can see value in that...I still like Wilson and believe the Braves have had a couple of really good days picking up a RP and 1B.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 09:55 PM
Dont get me wrong if it came down to Wilson or Conine both at 1 year deals at the same price then I would have taken Wilson hands down. But if it came down to a 1 year deal for Conine or a 2 year deal for Wilson then im going with Conine or if it came down to 2 million for Conine or 4-5 million for Wilson both at 1 year deals then im going with Conine again. Mainly because I dont want either of them but if i had to take one of them i want the cheapest one on the shortest contract.

RedsManRick
01-18-2007, 10:10 PM
Always the same pat excuse.

"(name of desired FA) probably didn't want to play for the Reds..."

That's just as much conjecture as my opinion that if Wayne really wanted the guy, he'd have gone after him and signed him.

You've got to hold these GM's to higher standards. It's a losing mindset to just throw up the hands.

He feeds me dreck and I'm supposed to ask for more because I'm told that's all there is.

I'm not buying it.

Craig Wilson for two million measely dollars.

Good Night Nurse.

So the GM is supposed to drug the player and make him sign the deal? You can't simply decide that free agents don't get free will. If you could tell me with 100% certainty that Wilson was offered $2 mil by WK and rejected it, then fine. But we don't know that. We do know that Matt Clement was offered Eric Milton's money and did not want to come to Cincy. What if Wilson's price for the Reds was $3.5 mil?

I'm as curious as the next person and have been advocating for Wilson all offseason. But unless an insider can give us the scoop, we have to keep an open mind for why he didn't come here. You can't hang WK b/c Wilson didn't want to play in Cincy. However, if he proves unable to change that perception issue over the course of time, I have no problems looking for a GM who can.

Spitball
01-18-2007, 10:19 PM
The guy hasn't even been promised a starting job.

Wait, the Braves just traded their starting first baseman. He has an opening there for him to lose. The Braves were a team with a definite need. If he doesn't start at first base for them, then he isn't worth the time to discuss his merit. There are an awful lot of other teams out there besides the Reds who also let this guy slip away to the Braves for $2 million. My guess is that defense, health issues, and the huge hole in his swing (inside pitches) played a good part in his discount price tag.

RedsManRick
01-18-2007, 10:25 PM
Wait, the Braves just traded their starting first baseman. He has an opening there for him to lose. The Braves were a team with a definite need. If he doesn't start at first base for them, then he isn't worth the time to discuss his merit. There are an awful lot of other teams out there besides the Reds who also let this guy slip away to the Braves for $2 million. My guess is that defense, health issues, and the huge hole in his swing (inside pitches) played a good part in his discount price tag.

Wilson will probably platoon at 1B with rookie Scott Thorman. It's a very similar job to what was available with the Reds but on a team that's a little better prepared to win in 2007.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 10:29 PM
So the GM is supposed to drug the player and make him sign the deal? You can't simply decide that free agents don't get free will. If you could tell me with 100% certainty that Wilson was offered $2 mil by WK and rejected it, then fine. But we don't know that. We do know that Matt Clement was offered Eric Milton's money and did not want to come to Cincy. What if Wilson's price for the Reds was $3.5 mil?

I'm as curious as the next person and have been advocating for Wilson all offseason. But unless an insider can give us the scoop, we have to keep an open mind for why he didn't come here. You can't hang WK b/c Wilson didn't want to play in Cincy. However, if he proves unable to change that perception issue over the course of time, I have no problems looking for a GM who can.

The problem with speculation is that it cuts both ways: no, we don't know for sure that Wilson wanted to play for the Reds or not; similarly, we have no idea if 3 million over two seasons would have done the trick (but I would guess, based on how much 4 million dollars buys, and how frequently in times past players have taken the money over the team in terms of preference, that this figure would have landed Wilson--which would have been a fine deal, considering the alternatives [Conine and Hatteberg]).

It's better to deal in probabilities (i.e. players tend to gravitate towards money over geography/team/city) than blind speculation (maybe he doesn't like Cincinnati/maybe he loves Atlanta/28 other teams CAN'T be that blind).

deltachi8
01-18-2007, 10:32 PM
In WayneO's brain, Jeff Conine is a better player than Craig Wilson.

Think about that.

I'd rather avoid a headache tonight, thanks.

Ugh.

Kc61
01-18-2007, 10:32 PM
Krivsky is clearly focused on low strikeout hitters. My guess is that he didn't have any interest in Wilson.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 10:32 PM
It's a very similar job to what was available with the Reds but on a team that's a little better prepared to win in 2007.

Here's the thing though. Atlanta started this offseason with no better a team than the Reds; however, Atlanta is clearly a better team than Cincy right now. Both teams had roughly the same amount of payroll wiggle room.

Now what's the difference between these two teams; how did one get so much better over an offseason and one not?

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 10:35 PM
Krivsky is clearly focused on low strikeout hitters. My guess is that he didn't have any interest in Wilson.

I think this is exactly right.

jmac
01-18-2007, 10:45 PM
I havent had time to read this whole thread but has wayne said the reds did not pursue or maybe he didnt want to come here.
With hatteberg playing vs the righties then wilson hitting against the lefties and an occasional start in RF probably wasnt what he (Wilson)was looking for.

Shaknb8k
01-18-2007, 10:48 PM
Reds dont have two young major league proven (sometimes inconsistant) 1st baseman and starting pitcher to trade off for RP.

Which kind of got me thinking of something completely off subject but the braves traded Ramirez and Laroche for Gonzo and Soriano. Reds traded Lopez and Kearns for Bray and Majewski. If Majewski was healthy then these deals are very close to the same type players. Lopez and Laroche are a lot alike. They are young inconsistant but have shown signs of being real good but still have some flaws. Same with Kearns and Ramirez. I believe Kearns has shown a little more than Ramirez has at the major league level but Ramirez makes up some of that by being at a more valuable position and I would guess a better work ethic than Kearns. Only if Majewski would have been healthy "the trade" would have been viewed more like these trades the braves have made

Sorry back to Craig Wilson

wheels
01-18-2007, 11:24 PM
It's not as if Craig Wilson was a sought after commodity to begin with ( the money and years of his current deal suggests this to me).

He didn't have the luxury of chosing one high dollar deal over another as Matt Clement did.

Krivsky could have grabbed him a month ago, but chose to go with the older, lesser player.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it can't read any clearer to me.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 11:28 PM
Reds dont have two young major league proven (sometimes inconsistant) 1st baseman and starting pitcher to trade off for RP.

Which kind of got me thinking of something completely off subject but the braves traded Ramirez and Laroche for Gonzo and Soriano. Reds traded Lopez and Kearns for Bray and Majewski. If Majewski was healthy then these deals are very close to the same type players. Lopez and Laroche are a lot alike. They are young inconsistant but have shown signs of being real good but still have some flaws. Same with Kearns and Ramirez. I believe Kearns has shown a little more than Ramirez has at the major league level but Ramirez makes up some of that by being at a more valuable position and I would guess a better work ethic than Kearns. Only if Majewski would have been healthy "the trade" would have been viewed more like these trades the braves have made

Sorry back to Craig Wilson

You do realize that Soriano and Gonzalez are infinitely better than Majewski and Bray? That's an incredibly flawed comparison.

The Braves took spare parts (Laroche and Ramirez) and completely overhauled their bullpen (which needed it); they then replaced 3/4 to 5/6 of Laroche's production for peanuts in Wilson.

That's exactly what smart teams do. That is a letter-perfect description of what a smart team does.

IslandRed
01-18-2007, 11:36 PM
Having studied Wilson's stat lines and career trends, I still would prefer him to Conine but I think it's not going to be nearly the difference a lot of us are thinking right now.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 11:39 PM
Having studied Wilson's stat lines and career trends, I still would prefer him to Conine but I think it's not going to be nearly the difference a lot of us are thinking right now.

I'll venture to say Wilson beats out Conine by 80 points of OPS--even hitting in huge Turner Field and Conine hitting in GAB.

And that's a bunch. A big bunch.

IslandRed
01-18-2007, 11:52 PM
I'll venture to say Wilson beats out Conine by 80 points of OPS--even hitting in huge Turner Field and Conine hitting in GAB.

And that's a bunch. A big bunch.

It's possible, but I'd say that would be more likely to be a result of Conine cratering than Wilson crushing. The last two years the difference between the two has been about 40 points, and that's with Conine getting the tougher draw of ballparks and (arguably) level of competition. Meanwhile, Wilson's platoon split keeps getting bigger and his OPS trend line is down for three seasons running. And he was absolutely terrible after the break last year.

I'd still have preferred him to Conine as the designated lefty-killing platoon partner to Hatty. But the more playing time the Braves give him outside of that comfort zone, the worse he'll look.

Falls City Beer
01-18-2007, 11:58 PM
It's possible, but I'd say that would be more likely to be a result of Conine cratering than Wilson crushing. The last two years the difference between the two has been about 40 points, and that's with Conine getting the tougher draw of ballparks and (arguably) level of competition. Meanwhile, Wilson's platoon split keeps getting bigger and his OPS trend line is down for three seasons running. And he was absolutely terrible after the break last year.

I'd still have preferred him to Conine as the designated lefty-killing platoon partner to Hatty. But the more playing time the Braves give him outside of that comfort zone, the worse he'll look.

Conine cratering?

Conine OPSed .725 in a pretty neutral ballpark in Baltimore (390 ABs) last year, then stunk it up even worse in a tinier park in Philly. Plus he's a year older, and it's my tendency to look most closely at a player's most recent numbers the older that player gets (if that makes sense). Something tells me Conine's not going to discover the fountain of youth at 42, even in GAB. Also Wilson can play a passable left field, which can't be said of Conine any longer.

Anyway, I see their OPS numbers to shake out as follows: .725 Conine/.805 Wilson in roughly same number of PAs.

IslandRed
01-19-2007, 12:08 AM
Conine cratering?

Conine OPSed .725 in a pretty neutral ballpark in Baltimore (330 ABs) last year, then stunk it up even worse in a tinier park in Philly. Plus he's a year older, and it's my tendency to look most closely at a player's most recent numbers the older that player gets (if that makes sense). Something tells me Conine's not going to discover the fountain of youth at 42, even in GAB. Also Wilson can play a passable left field, which can't be said of Conine any longer.

Anyway, I see their OPS numbers to shake out as follows: .725 Conine/.805 Wilson in roughly same number of PAs.

You might be right, although I think Wilson will be lucky to get above .800 if his at-bats get much over 300. Both guys figure to suffer from excessive exposure -- Conine due to age and Wilson due to platoon split. I'm hoping, but it's just a hope, that not having to go out there every day will help Conine. He got way too many ABs last year.

What I would like to know is the prevailing opinion on Wilson's second half last year. Was it just a slump, or something else? Because the dude was brutal. Juan Castro outhit him after the ASG. And it wasn't close.

Falls City Beer
01-19-2007, 12:11 AM
You might be right, although I think Wilson will be lucky to get above .800 if his at-bats get much over 300. Both guys figure to suffer from excessive exposure -- Conine due to age and Wilson due to platoon split. I'm hoping, but it's just a hope, that not having to go out there every day will help Conine. He got way too many ABs last year.

What I would like to know is the prevailing opinion on Wilson's second half last year. Was it just a slump, or something else? Because the dude was brutal. Juan Castro outhit him after the ASG. And it wasn't close.

Wilson, like Conine, is probably a 350-400 AB max hitter, but if any team can deploy a hitter well and to his (and their) advantage, it's Atlanta.

Patrick Bateman
01-19-2007, 01:19 AM
Not sure why the Reds are especially guilty here...

Because he was the exact player that fit our needs, and payed a clearly inferior player the same amount of money, and happens to be older.

Patrick Bateman
01-19-2007, 01:21 AM
I seriously would have given Wilson a 2 year 8M deal, and perhaps 10M based on the current market. I believe that would have been a fiar deal for him. He would have helped this team tremendously. You can't tell me that he really didn't want to play in Cincy to that extent.

jmac
01-19-2007, 02:22 AM
I seriously would have given Wilson a 2 year 8M deal, and perhaps 10M based on the current market. I believe that would have been a fiar deal for him. He would have helped this team tremendously. You can't tell me that he really didn't want to play in Cincy to that extent.

Not wanting to play in cincinnati and getting assurances of maybe more than a platoon are 2 different things.

Ron Madden
01-19-2007, 04:20 AM
Krivsky is clearly focused on low strikeout hitters. My guess is that he didn't have any interest in Wilson.

BINGO! :jump:

Sad Aint It?

Ron Madden
01-19-2007, 04:55 AM
You might be right, although I think Wilson will be lucky to get above .800 if his at-bats get much over 300. Both guys figure to suffer from excessive exposure -- Conine due to age and Wilson due to platoon split. I'm hoping, but it's just a hope, that not having to go out there every day will help Conine. He got way too many ABs last year.


Jerry loves old guys, Conine will more than likely get far too many ABs again this season. :(

Handofdeath
01-19-2007, 06:03 AM
Maybe one of the objectives Special K wants is for the veterans he brings in to have some sort of Post Season experience? None of our in house vets really do so the signings and trades may bring that mindset to the team...I can see value in that...I still like Wilson and believe the Braves have had a couple of really good days picking up a RP and 1B.

You are 100% right there. The Reds were a playoff caliber team until around September and then choked. They were in fact actually in the race pretty much until the end and the Reds could really have used a few guys like Stanton or Conine that had been in that situation before and could have lent a little leadership to a team sorely lacking in it. That West Coast swing in late August/early September killed the Reds chances for the playoffs and having guys who had been in a pennant race before might have helped stopped the bleeding at least halfway through that horrid stretch of games.

buckeyenut
01-19-2007, 07:58 AM
Wilson will probably platoon at 1B with rookie Scott Thorman. It's a very similar job to what was available with the Reds but on a team that's a little better prepared to win in 2007.

So in ATL, he is worried about beating out a rookie, who he might not even know about. They just traded their starting 1B. And we have Hatteberg, who is a proven vet coming off a good year. From a playing time perspective for Wilson, no brainer.

Now, my guess of what happened here is Wilson has been looking for a starting job all winter to the tune of 5M for 2-3 yr. He hasn't been able to find that. He realizes there just aren't that many starting 1B jobs open right now. It is getting late in the offseason and all the sudden, the Braves, a team with a great rep, trades their starting 1B. He probably sees that, immediately tells his agent to get on the horn and get him that open job. Braves only want one year, and that is OK with him because this way he can prove he can play 1B every day and get a bigger payday next offseason.

Probably as simple as that.

Heath
01-19-2007, 08:15 AM
And, I said this earlier in the off-season and I'll say it here. Maybe Craig Wilson DID NOT want to come to Cincinnati. True, our own egos inflate this situation from the Reds standpoint where we wonder why WayneK doesn't sign this guy, he's the perfect RH 1b foil, he'll OPS over .800, blah, blah, blah.

But, look at Craig Wilson's side of the view. Why go someplace that's marginally better than Pittsburgh? Plus, there is a little history with the Braves, they MIGHT sneak into the playoffs backdoor. Maybe he's sick of cities on large rivers and doesn't like 3-ways.

This is the biggest non-issue of the season, and once again the sky's falling. Absurd.

RFS62
01-19-2007, 08:31 AM
And, I said this earlier in the off-season and I'll say it here. Maybe Craig Wilson DID NOT want to come to Cincinnati. Tru, our own egos inflate this situation from the Reds standpoint where we wonder why WayneK doesn't sign this guy, he's the perfect RH 1b foil, he'll OPS over .800, blah, blah, blah.

But, look at Craig Wilson's side of the view. Why go someplace that's marginally better than Pittsburgh? Plus, there is a little history with the Braves, they MIGHT sneak into the playoffs backdoor. Maybe he's sick of cities on large rivers and doesn't like 3-ways.

This is the biggest non-issue of the season, and once again the sky's falling. Absurd.



Good post.

Tom Servo
01-19-2007, 08:33 AM
What Heath is saying reminds me of something I wanted to point out. WayneK's style is to keep his cards close to his vest, as close as they can be. He won't talk about any signing until the physical, and his trades always come out of nowhere. What happens when you keep your cards close to your vest is you don't let the fans know that you are out there trying to make a better team. We probably wouldn't have ever known that Wayne persued David Dellucci if Dellucci had not said so in his press conference, and if we do find out the Reds were interested in Wilson we won't find out from Wayne. We like to paint the picture of Wayne sitting on his hands but given his activity last year I would have to doubt that is the case.

Roy Tucker
01-19-2007, 08:33 AM
Wayne K hates strikeouts.

* Wilson had 122 Ks in 359 ABs in 2006.
* Conine had 65 Ks in 489 ABs.

Whoever said WK plain old thinks Conine is a better hitter than Wilson was spot-on.

BoxingRed
01-19-2007, 09:01 AM
Maybe it would be a good idea if someone would go to one of the Reds Caravans or find out when WK will be taking calls on Hot Stove and then actually ask him about the situation. People do alot of speculation about Wayne's and Jerry's motives here, and I appreciate the discussion, but no one seem to take the opportunities presented to ask these tough questions. I am not saying you'll get a straight answer, but if the media won't ask these questions, the fans should. I'm in Columbia, SC or I would do it myself.

redsmetz
01-19-2007, 09:04 AM
Always the same pat excuse.

"(name of desired FA) probably didn't want to play for the Reds..."

That's just as much conjecture as my opinion that if Wayne really wanted the guy, he'd have gone after him and signed him.

You've got to hold these GM's to higher standards. It's a losing mindset to just throw up the hands.

He feeds me dreck and I'm supposed to ask for more because I'm told that's all there is.

I'm not buying it.

Craig Wilson for two million measely dollars.

Good Night Nurse.

So we're holding GM's to higher standards based on nothing but conjecture? None of us know what may or may not have happened with regards to the Reds and Craig Wilson.

We do know this: Free Agency is a two way street. A team makes an offer, a player accepts. After that, we know nothing. It's absurd to denigrate the Reds because he signed for a "measly" amount with another team.

Someone noted elsewhere that Joey Votto is slated to be the future first baseman. Did that play a factor in anything possible negotiation with Wilson (if, in fact, any took place)?

We don't know those things. I'm not going to vent a spleen over things that may not have taken place.

lollipopcurve
01-19-2007, 09:17 AM
Because he was the exact player that fit our needs, and payed a clearly inferior player the same amount of money, and happens to be older.

Or are you thinking of the Oakland A's? Currently their only 1B is left-handed hitting Dan Johnson, a player they reportedly are not real comfortable with. Think they could have used Wilson?

How about them Yankees, who signed Mientkiewicz to play first a few weeks ago?

bucksfan2
01-19-2007, 09:31 AM
Can someone explain the love of Craig Wilson to me???? I have never thought much of the guy. He is probably a 4th outfielder and the reds already have one of those. He isn't going to platoon at 1b because you have Hatty, Conine, Valentine, and not to mention Votto sitting in the minors. If this team had postseason aspirations then I would sign Wilson on as a 25th player but I would not give him more than a one year deal.

Heath
01-19-2007, 09:57 AM
Or are you thinking of the Oakland A's? Currently their only 1B is left-handed hitting Dan Johnson, a player they reportedly are not real comfortable with. Think they could have used Wilson?

How about them Yankees, who signed Mientkiewicz to play first a few weeks ago?

Yet, the Yankees had Craig Wilson at the end of the year last year.

Patrick Bateman
01-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Or are you thinking of the Oakland A's? Currently their only 1B is left-handed hitting Dan Johnson, a player they reportedly are not real comfortable with. Think they could have used Wilson?

How about them Yankees, who signed Mientkiewicz to play first a few weeks ago?

And ours is Scott Hatteberg. We are right up there is need for Wilson. Plus. Krivsky knew that we needed a RH hitting 1st baseman and got a worse one for the same amount of money.

TRF
01-19-2007, 11:00 AM
It isn't this one incident. It isn't that Krivsky got a guy a decade older with declining skills. It's that he keeps getting these guys. Why was Weathers, at his age and Stanton at his age and Cormier at his age given anything more than a 1 year deal? Why release Standridge, who was BTW dominant against RH batters? Why sign to LH reliefe pitchers that had inferior numbers against LH hitters than SHackelford?

Why all the roster shuffling surrounding Olmedo, Harris, Keppinger. Aren't they all essentially the same guy?

"The Trade" plays into this as well. Even if He trades Kearns, why not at least try FeLo at 2B and move Phillips to SS?

All Krivsky has done since April of last year is make this team older. He hasn't made them any better.

Watch as Brad Salmon and one of Medlock/Shafer pitches lights out in ST. Watch as none of them make the 25 man roster.

Watch as Deno is optioned to Louisville, because he needs AB's all so the Reds can keep another aging vet on the Roster.

Watch Votto go to AAA after crushing the ball in ST. Hatteberg is 37 years old. He does not hit for power, and every odd numbered year since 1998 he's been awful. Except 1999. He was injured most of 1999.

Yes I know ST numbers don't necessarily mean a whole heckuva lot. But this is the time IF you have good evaluators of talent, that you take some chances. The Reds are not going to win the division with the club as constructed. Why not allow some of the youth to step in and make their presence known?

1B Votto
2B Phillips
3B EE
SS Agon

Could be one of the rangiest infields in baseball, with pretty good offensive upside as well. Might have been even better with FeLo at 2B and Phillips at SS. Sad thing is, by season's end we might know that for sure as FeLo is now Washington's 2B.

Craig Wilson I could probably live without if this were an isolated incident. But it isn't.

dsmith421
01-19-2007, 01:21 PM
One of the charges of Bob, Wayne, and the entire Reds front office regime is to create an environment that IS an appealing place to play.

Krivsky has done a wonderful job of creating an appealing place to play, for a certain type of player. All you have to do is be old and suck, and Wayne will pay you millions of dollars.

dsmith421
01-19-2007, 01:23 PM
This is the biggest non-issue of the season, and once again the sky's falling. Absurd.

The entire Reds franchise has been a non-issue since 1999. If we ignored "non-issues", there'd be nothing to talk about.

Heath
01-19-2007, 02:49 PM
The entire Reds franchise has been a non-issue since 1999. If we ignored "non-issues", there'd be nothing to talk about.

Sometimes saying nothing at all speaks volumes.

RedsManRick
01-19-2007, 03:26 PM
It isn't this one incident. It isn't that Krivsky got a guy a decade older with declining skills. It's that he keeps getting these guys. Why was Weathers, at his age and Stanton at his age and Cormier at his age given anything more than a 1 year deal? Why release Standridge, who was BTW dominant against RH batters? Why sign to LH reliefe pitchers that had inferior numbers against LH hitters than SHackelford?

Why all the roster shuffling surrounding Olmedo, Harris, Keppinger. Aren't they all essentially the same guy?

"The Trade" plays into this as well. Even if He trades Kearns, why not at least try FeLo at 2B and move Phillips to SS?

All Krivsky has done since April of last year is make this team older. He hasn't made them any better.

Watch as Brad Salmon and one of Medlock/Shafer pitches lights out in ST. Watch as none of them make the 25 man roster.

Watch as Deno is optioned to Louisville, because he needs AB's all so the Reds can keep another aging vet on the Roster.

Watch Votto go to AAA after crushing the ball in ST. Hatteberg is 37 years old. He does not hit for power, and every odd numbered year since 1998 he's been awful. Except 1999. He was injured most of 1999.

Yes I know ST numbers don't necessarily mean a whole heckuva lot. But this is the time IF you have good evaluators of talent, that you take some chances. The Reds are not going to win the division with the club as constructed. Why not allow some of the youth to step in and make their presence known?

1B Votto
2B Phillips
3B EE
SS Agon

Could be one of the rangiest infields in baseball, with pretty good offensive upside as well. Might have been even better with FeLo at 2B and Phillips at SS. Sad thing is, by season's end we might know that for sure as FeLo is now Washington's 2B.

Craig Wilson I could probably live without if this were an isolated incident. But it isn't.

I agree TRF -- these are my fears exactly. But let's save our complaining until after the injustice.

mth123
01-19-2007, 09:46 PM
It isn't this one incident. It isn't that Krivsky got a guy a decade older with declining skills. It's that he keeps getting these guys. Why was Weathers, at his age and Stanton at his age and Cormier at his age given anything more than a 1 year deal? Why release Standridge, who was BTW dominant against RH batters? Why sign to LH reliefe pitchers that had inferior numbers against LH hitters than SHackelford?

Why all the roster shuffling surrounding Olmedo, Harris, Keppinger. Aren't they all essentially the same guy?

"The Trade" plays into this as well. Even if He trades Kearns, why not at least try FeLo at 2B and move Phillips to SS?

All Krivsky has done since April of last year is make this team older. He hasn't made them any better.

Watch as Brad Salmon and one of Medlock/Shafer pitches lights out in ST. Watch as none of them make the 25 man roster.

Watch as Deno is optioned to Louisville, because he needs AB's all so the Reds can keep another aging vet on the Roster.

Watch Votto go to AAA after crushing the ball in ST. Hatteberg is 37 years old. He does not hit for power, and every odd numbered year since 1998 he's been awful. Except 1999. He was injured most of 1999.

Yes I know ST numbers don't necessarily mean a whole heckuva lot. But this is the time IF you have good evaluators of talent, that you take some chances. The Reds are not going to win the division with the club as constructed. Why not allow some of the youth to step in and make their presence known?

1B Votto
2B Phillips
3B EE
SS Agon

Could be one of the rangiest infields in baseball, with pretty good offensive upside as well. Might have been even better with FeLo at 2B and Phillips at SS. Sad thing is, by season's end we might know that for sure as FeLo is now Washington's 2B.

Craig Wilson I could probably live without if this were an isolated incident. But it isn't.

well said

Handofdeath
01-19-2007, 11:19 PM
Krivsky has done a wonderful job of creating an appealing place to play, for a certain type of player. All you have to do is be old and suck, and Wayne will pay you millions of dollars.


Weathers 2005 ERA 3.94 15 Saves
2006 ERA 3.54 12 Saves

Cormier 2006 ERA 2.44 in 48 IP

Stanton 2006 ERA 3.99 in 68 IP 8 Saves
22th among active players in ERA
26th in Hits per 9IP
1st in games pitched/3rd all time
16th in games finished/70th all time

If these guys were 5 years younger, no one would be questioning the moves. Dare I say, they might be very much praising them. Weathers, Cormier, and Stanton are not young pitchers but they are still effective pitchers. Any pitcher, starter or reliever, who can still have an ERA under 4.00 is still damned effective and Cormier was under 2.50. Fact is, if the Reds bullpens hadn't blown so many leads early last season the September swoon would not have been so damaging to the team and The Trade might not have even been necessary. The Reds shaky bullpen cost the Reds the division title in 2006. The Reds now have good quality arms in the bullpen. Yes, they are old but they can still do the job. The bullpen is the one place where you can put 40 year old players and they can still be effective. History should tell us that. John Franco anyone? Stop worrying about their ages. Until they prove they absolutely can't do the job let them alone. I'm more concerned about aging offensive players on the Reds myself.

Falls City Beer
01-19-2007, 11:33 PM
Weathers 2005 ERA 3.94 15 Saves
2006 ERA 3.54 12 Saves

Cormier 2006 ERA 2.44 in 48 IP

Stanton 2006 ERA 3.99 in 68 IP 8 Saves
22th among active players in ERA
26th in Hits per 9IP
1st in games pitched/3rd all time
16th in games finished/70th all time

If these guys were 5 years younger, no one would be questioning the moves. Dare I say, they might be very much praising them. Weathers, Cormier, and Stanton are not young pitchers but they are still effective pitchers. Any pitcher, starter or reliever, who can still have an ERA under 4.00 is still damned effective and Cormier was under 2.50. Fact is, if the Reds bullpens hadn't blown so many leads early last season the September swoon would not have been so damaging to the team and The Trade might not have even been necessary. The Reds shaky bullpen cost the Reds the division title in 2006. The Reds now have good quality arms in the bullpen. Yes, they are old but they can still do the job. The bullpen is the one place where you can put 40 year old players and they can still be effective. History should tell us that. John Franco anyone? Stop worrying about their ages. Until they prove they absolutely can't do the job let them alone. I'm more concerned about aging offensive players on the Reds myself.


You're sort of undermining your point with the Franco comparison: Franco was pretty much done after his age-40 season. Cormier is over 40 and Stanton turns 40 in June.

mth123
01-19-2007, 11:44 PM
Weathers 2005 ERA 3.94 15 Saves
2006 ERA 3.54 12 Saves

Cormier 2006 ERA 2.44 in 48 IP

Stanton 2006 ERA 3.99 in 68 IP 8 Saves
22th among active players in ERA
26th in Hits per 9IP
1st in games pitched/3rd all time
16th in games finished/70th all time

If these guys were 5 years younger, no one would be questioning the moves. Dare I say, they might be very much praising them. Weathers, Cormier, and Stanton are not young pitchers but they are still effective pitchers. Any pitcher, starter or reliever, who can still have an ERA under 4.00 is still damned effective and Cormier was under 2.50. Fact is, if the Reds bullpens hadn't blown so many leads early last season the September swoon would not have been so damaging to the team and The Trade might not have even been necessary. The Reds shaky bullpen cost the Reds the division title in 2006. The Reds now have good quality arms in the bullpen. Yes, they are old but they can still do the job. The bullpen is the one place where you can put 40 year old players and they can still be effective. History should tell us that. John Franco anyone? Stop worrying about their ages. Until they prove they absolutely can't do the job let them alone. I'm more concerned about aging offensive players on the Reds myself.

The ages are only a small portion of the point. If you look at the underlying stats, the stats that show how these guys really throw the ball, you see not enough bats are missed, too many walks allowed and too many HRs. Cormier and Weathers in particular were very "hit lucky" in 2006. The stats say a disproportionate number of balls hit in play were converted to outs. That suggests a really good defense (which we know is not true) or a flukey number of balls right at people. If some of those start finding holes (as the law of averages and years of statistical data say they will) the combination of a higher hit rate, with too many balls in play (low K rates, especially Cormier), high Walk Rates (Weathers), and High HR Rates (again Weathers) project to pitchers with ERAs above 5 (probably not Stanton though).

Now, suppose these players overcome all of that and put up decent years again. This is where the age factor comes into play. This team needs to be adding pieces to the core to move to the next level. A decent performance from a stopgap or two (which could occur) really isn't helping to acheive that goal. A younger player who comes through is a building block. If these guys do its a nice way to go out and the hole on the roster will still need to be solved.

A couple guys like these guys are probably necessary in a small market, but continually passing on younger, higher upside options is no way to make progress. Too many players with no upside on this team. A young building team has no business having 6 players over 37 (Hatte, Conine, Griffey, Weathers, Cormier, Stanton). Its not like the older players are lights out stars. These guys are filled with as many question marks as the younger more upside options.

Falls City Beer
01-19-2007, 11:48 PM
The ages are only a small portion of the point. If you look at the underlying stats, the stats that show how these guys really throw the ball, you see not enough bats are missed, too many walks allowed and too many HRs. Cormier and Weathers in particular were very "hit lucky" in 2006. The stats say a disproportionate number of balls hit in play were converted to outs. That suggests a really good defense (which we know is not true) or a flukey number of balls right at people. If some of those start finding holes (as the law of averages and years of statistical data say they will) the combination of a higher hit rate, with too many balls in play (low K rates, especially Cormier), high Walk Rates (Weathers), and High HR Rates (again Weathers) project to pitchers with ERAs above 5 (probably not Stanton though).

Now, suppose these players overcome all of that and put up decent years again. This is where the age factor comes into play. This team needs to be adding pieces to the core to move to the next level. A decent performance from a stopgap or two (which could occur) really isn't helping to acheive that goal. A younger player who comes through is a building block. If these guys do its a nice way to go out and the hole on the roster will still need to be solved.

A couple guys like these guys are probably necessary in a small market, but continually passing on younger, higher upside options is no way to make progress. Too many players with no upside on this team. A young building team has no business having 6 players over 37 (Hatte, Conine, Griffey, Weathers, Cormier, Stanton). Its not like the older players are lights out stars. These guys are filled with as many question marks as the younger more upside options.


I agree mostly, though I think the age thing is probably being under-emphasized, particularly vis. relievers. Seriously, name a reliever that pitched brilliantly into his 40s. Trevor Hoffman? Is that it? (oops, never mind Hoffman; he's not even 40 till October). Seriously, name an effective 40 + year old reliever. Anyone? Eckersley. That's it.

mth123
01-20-2007, 12:23 AM
I agree mostly, though I think the age thing is probably being under-emphasized, particularly vis. relievers. Seriously, name a reliever that pitched brilliantly into his 40s. Trevor Hoffman? Is that it? (oops, never mind Hoffman; he's not even 40 till October). Seriously, name an effective 40 + year old reliever. Anyone? Eckersley. That's it.

Hoyt Wilhelm?:)

Handofdeath
01-20-2007, 12:24 AM
You're sort of undermining your point with the Franco comparison: Franco was pretty much done after his age-40 season. Cormier is over 40 and Stanton turns 40 in June.

Check out Franco's season at age 42
How about Kent Tekulve's at age 40 and 41?
Jose Mesa this past season at 40 pitching for the Rockies?
Doug Jones at 42 and 43?
Dan Plesac at 41?

Of course, the Reds have two young and talented relievers in Bray and Majewski but people are upset because of who the Reds had to trade to get them. Quality relievers who are cheap and young don't usually wind up falling into your lap. The teams that have them don't usually wind up letting them go because they are...young and cheap. Until the Reds rebuild the farm system which will give them those kinds of players, or at least the players that can be traded to get those players, the Reds have to piece things together.

edabbs44
01-20-2007, 12:27 AM
Check out Franco's season at age 42
How about Kent Tekulve's at age 40 and 41?
Jose Mesa this past season at 40 pitching for the Rockies?
Doug Jones at 42 and 43?
Dan Plesac at 41?

Of course, the Reds have two young and talented relievers in Bray and Majewski but people are upset because of who the Reds had to trade to get them. Quality relievers who are cheap and young don't usually wind up falling into your lap. The teams that have them don't usually wind up letting them go because they are...young and cheap. Until the Reds rebuild the farm system which will give them those kinds of players, or at least the players that can be traded to get those players, the Reds have to piece things together.

Cincy could have Mariano, Wagner and KRod in the bullpen and I still wouldn't be excited for '07.

mth123
01-20-2007, 12:29 AM
Of course, the Reds have two young and talented relievers in Bray and Majewski but people are upset because of who the Reds had to trade to get them. Quality relievers who are cheap and young don't usually wind up falling into your lap. The teams that have them don't usually wind up letting them go because they are...young and cheap. Until the Reds rebuild the farm system which will give them those kinds of players, or at least the players that can be traded to get those players, the Reds have to piece things together.

The Braves got one from Seattle for a starter who is as questionable as Lohse is and almost as expensive. There were plenty of opportunities to acquire younger potential building blocks this year w/o breaking the bank or displacing anything crucial. The troubling thing is that WK seems to prefer the collection of stopgaps.

jojo
01-20-2007, 12:41 AM
Quality relievers who are cheap and young don't usually wind up falling into your lap.


Actually quality bullpen arms aren't nearly as hard to accumulate as some would have you believe....

Ron Madden
01-20-2007, 04:33 AM
Maybe it would be a good idea if someone would go to one of the Reds Caravans or find out when WK will be taking calls on Hot Stove and then actually ask him about the situation. People do alot of speculation about Wayne's and Jerry's motives here, and I appreciate the discussion, but no one seem to take the opportunities presented to ask these tough questions. I am not saying you'll get a straight answer, but if the media won't ask these questions, the fans should. I'm in Columbia, SC or I would do it myself.


The tough questions will never be asked/answered on The Hot Stove League Show or on The Banana Phone. These calls are screened and geared to promote Marty and the radio network more than the Reds themselves.

Ltlabner
01-20-2007, 06:41 AM
The tough questions will never be asked/answered on The Hot Stove League Show or on The Banana Phone. These calls are screened and geared to promote Marty and the radio network more than the Reds themselves.

:rolleyes:

Heath
01-20-2007, 08:52 AM
The tough questions will never be asked/answered on The Hot Stove League Show or on The Banana Phone. These calls are screened and geared to promote Marty and the radio network more than the Reds themselves.

It's another way of the MAN keeping us down.......



:D

BoxingRed
01-20-2007, 09:42 AM
The tough questions will never be asked/answered on The Hot Stove League Show or on The Banana Phone. These calls are screened and geared to promote Marty and the radio network more than the Reds themselves.
There are ways around that. My dad used to have fun with Howard Schnellenberger. He would have my mom call and say she was going to ask some innocuous question about attendence, then when she got on, she would grill him on why the team didn't use a certain formation to stop the option or something like that.

Falls City Beer
01-20-2007, 11:05 AM
Cincy could have Mariano, Wagner and KRod in the bullpen and I still wouldn't be excited for '07.

I'd feel a whole lot better about the Reds if they had the greatest bullpen ever assembled.