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Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 04:03 PM
I was looking at an ESPN article today and saw that Carlos Zambrano in their eyes, has a roughly 50/50 shot of returning to the Cubs next year. My question to the wise minds of the Old Red Guard is: Would it be wise to stay out of the mayhem that is the '06 off-season and save money for Carlos Zambrano?

I would really hope that this would be Krivsky's master plan. In '08, Krivsky has Aaron Harang who is a top-of-the-rotation kind of guy, and also an ace according to some standards. Furthermore, the Reds will have Bronson Arroyo pitching in his contract year. Bronson would surely lay it all on the line for a fat new free agent contract or a plane ticket up to Boston. That being said, if Krivsky could somehow reign in Zambrano, the Reds would have three top of the rotation pitchers along with a major league ready Homer Bailey.

This would be enough in my mind for a pennant chase. The Reds would undoubtely have the best rotation in the Central and perhaps all of the National League. However, as we all know, a lot can change in one year in baseball. As many have previously stated, '07 is not going to be our year. My question is Would it be wise for Krivsky to hold off for a shot at Carlos Zambrano for '08?

edabbs44
12-19-2006, 04:13 PM
RJ comes off the books next year in NY...I seriously doubt Cincy has the goods to bid on Zambrano.

westofyou
12-19-2006, 04:14 PM
Would it be wise for Krivsky to hold off for a shot at Carlos Zambrano for '08?
Wait for the Prom, miss the Dance.

Red Leader
12-19-2006, 04:16 PM
I would say that with what's left in this year's F.A. class, you don't really have a shot at spending too much money this offseason. As for saving it for Zambrano? He's going to have a lot of mileage on that arm at this time next year. He is a risk, IMO. I still think he's a better risk than anyone in this year's class, but he is still a risk.

So my opinion is that the Reds should hold their cash this season, not neccessarily because I don't want them spending money this year, but because there's no one I want them to spend the money on.

RedLegSuperStar
12-19-2006, 04:25 PM
Umm.. and when was the last time the Reds landed a big name Free Agent?

edabbs44
12-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Umm.. and when was the last time the Reds landed a big name Free Agent?

http://www.worleybuggerflyco.com/CatchRelease2002/images/Eric%20Milton.jpg

RedLegSuperStar
12-19-2006, 04:46 PM
http://www.worleybuggerflyco.com/CatchRelease2002/images/Eric%20Milton.jpg

And how has that worked out?

Red Leader
12-19-2006, 04:48 PM
http://www.worleybuggerflyco.com/CatchRelease2002/images/Eric%20Milton.jpg

Is it ironic that that is not a big fish?

I'll have to consult Alanis Morissette

Red in Chicago
12-19-2006, 04:58 PM
He's going to have a lot of mileage on that arm at this time next year.

i agree with the mileage on his arm...even though dusty's gone, the guy likes to pitch and it's going to be hard for lou to get him out of there...

Always Red
12-19-2006, 05:36 PM
I was looking at an ESPN article today and saw that Carlos Zambrano in their eyes, has a roughly 50/50 shot of returning to the Cubs next year. My question to the wise minds of the Old Red Guard is: Would it be wise to stay out of the mayhem that is the '06 off-season and save money for Carlos Zambrano?



Based upon this years prices, I'm guessing that the bidding for Zambrano next year will be astronomical, if he gets through the year with no arm troubles. Will the Reds be able to afford 4 yr, $65-70 million? He'll be 27 years old, and will have been the Cubs ace for 4 years by then, even with the likes of oft-injured Wood and Prior on the staff.

I hope they can afford that, because you know Boston, NY Mets and Yanks, and the Dodgers are all going to want him to.

You're right, that'd be a great rotation.:beerme:

Might look just as good with Harang, Arroyo and Bailey as 1-2-3.:thumbup:

ochre
12-19-2006, 05:45 PM
Is it ironic that that is not a big fish?

I'll have to consult Alanis Morissette
It's more like rain on your wedding day than ironic I'd think.

On a side note, the innumerable times I've yelled "you throw like a fish" at the television while Milton was pitching the last couple of years now makes more sense...

Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 06:21 PM
Wait for the Prom, miss the Dance.

I guess I am just dreaming. I just would like to see Castellini/Krivsky put themselves out there and do all in their power to reel in Zambrano. I still like to have World Series dreams and I think if Castellini and Krivsky want Zambrano they should overpay for him. He's one of those guys you pay the amount that he wants. '08 seems to be a great year to shoot for and I was wishing that maybe the Reds could pull it off. But the realists are probably correct.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 06:33 PM
Right. Cause Reds' ownership is known for saving money for a rainy day splurge on the market. :rolleyes:

Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 06:37 PM
Right. Cause Reds' ownership is known for saving money for a rainy day splurge on the market. :rolleyes:


What makes you believe that BCast will run the Reds the same as Carl and Marge did? If anything, Castellini is running the Reds based upon the Cardinals "business plan" per se and the splurged on Jim Edmonds and took on the imminent big contract of Mark McGwire. If Mr. Castellini wants to be like the Cardinals then he should man up and send shockwaves throughout the baseball world and give Zambrano what he wants.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 06:39 PM
What makes you believe that BCast will run the Reds the same as Carl and Marge did? .

Because besides pumping up the advertising department, BCast is showing himself as cut from the very same cloth as Lindner. Things could change, but I wouldn't count on it.

If the Reds are going to succeed, it's once again going to be up to the GM in charge, not ownership's pocketbook.

Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 06:44 PM
Because besides pumping up the advertising department, BCast is showing himself as cut from the very same cloth as Lindner. Things could change, but I wouldn't count on it.

If the Reds are going to succeed, it's once again going to be up to the GM in charge, not ownership's pocketbook.

So since he looks like he could be like Carl, he is going to be like Carl? Most owners, George Steinbrenner aside, act very much the same. Most of them care for the bottom line but we have seen very little instances of BCast not opening up his wallet for the team.

Carl was the one who turned down the Rolen trade due to money and BCast has done nothing to make any one believe that he will not open his pocketbook to improve the ballclub. If any one is a role model to BCast, it is the World Champions in St. Louis and as I've said before, they have opened their wallets to win.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 06:45 PM
So since he looks like he could be like Carl, he is going to be like Carl? Most owners, George Steinbrenner aside, act very much the same. Most of them care for the bottom line but we have seen very little instances of BCast not opening up his wallet for the team.

Carl was the one who turned down the Rolen trade due to money and BCast has done nothing to make any one believe that he will not open his pocketbook to improve the ballclub. If any one is a role model to BCast, it is the World Champions in St. Louis and as I've said before, they have opened their wallets to win.

You have faith without evidence, I have skepticism with evidence. We'll call it a draw.

ochre
12-19-2006, 06:47 PM
Most of the stuff I have read indicates that Lindner was/is/has been Castellini's business mentor. I don't think it's all that far of a stretch to believe that they may share some fiscal philosophy.

Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 06:56 PM
You have faith without evidence, I have skepticism with evidence. We'll call it a draw.

"As partners in St. Louis, Tom and Joe Williams and I had front-row seats for the transformation of the St. Louis franchise.

Ten years ago, the Cardinals' situation was almost identical to where the Reds are now. A long-range plan that focused on building a world class organization by putting the right people in the right jobs was put in place. Improved performance led to improved attendance. Improved attendance led to more revenue. More revenue led to more payroll. Now, the Cardinals are a strong, consistent winner.

That's where we want to be. We're buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we are putting a contender on the field ... year in and year out."
-Bob Castellini (January 20, 2006).

Here is my evidence that the Reds are using the Cardinals as their business model. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 06:57 PM
"As partners in St. Louis, Tom and Joe Williams and I had front-row seats for the transformation of the St. Louis franchise.

Ten years ago, the Cardinals' situation was almost identical to where the Reds are now. A long-range plan that focused on building a world class organization by putting the right people in the right jobs was put in place. Improved performance led to improved attendance. Improved attendance led to more revenue. More revenue led to more payroll. Now, the Cardinals are a strong, consistent winner.

That's where we want to be. We're buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we are putting a contender on the field ... year in and year out."
-Bob Castellini (January 20, 2006).

Here is my evidence that the Reds are using the Cardinals as their business model. Where is your evidence to the contrary?


Words, words, words.

Here's mine: no payroll boost for this summer's push to acquire arms.

ochre
12-19-2006, 07:06 PM
So, all they need to do is to trade for McGuire and set back while he chases (with a Sosa-type pushing him along the way) Maris?

:)

westofyou
12-19-2006, 07:30 PM
If the Reds are going to succeed, it's once again going to be up to the GM in charge, not ownership's pocketbook.

When did the Reds succeed when they didn't get a hand from a newly minted owner?

Oddly enough both runs of more the one title in Reds history were preceded by exactly what you're deriding the Reds for doing right now. Both times it lined the Reds team coffers as well.

The other years?

They just sold talent to the coasts.

Spring~Fields
12-19-2006, 07:51 PM
That's where we want to be. We're buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we are putting a contender on the field ... year in and year out."
-Bob Castellini (January 20, 2006).



Air dip and wind pudding.

May - October 137 games 63 - 74 .459 and worse today than they were then.

GAC
12-19-2006, 09:39 PM
Because besides pumping up the advertising department, BCast is showing himself as cut from the very same cloth as Lindner.

Based on what evidence? The guy has been far more out front and involved with the fans then Lindner ever was. He has stated he will spend the money.

Are you implying that Castellini is a liar or BS artist?

It's Castellini's fault that their need (pitching) is in short demand and the market is demanding (and getting) ridiculous salaries/contracts for Milton type pitchers?

Can you give example of any of the current pitchers signed this winter by other teams, taking into consideration their contracts, that you wish Castellini/Krivsky had gone after, or where they missed the boat?

I would have been far more angry if they had come home with that Lily or Marquis contract.


If the Reds are going to succeed, it's once again going to be up to the GM in charge, not ownership's pocketbook.

That is simply a ridiculous statement. If the ownership doesn't put up the money then the GMs hands are basically tied.

Spend just to be spending?

Again, this owner has stated he will spend. He has even stated that if the Reds were in contention he'd bump the payroll up at mid-season if the acquisition was there.

You're judging this FO as somehow incompetent during an off-season where it has been very tough on all owners/GMs, and in which many are caving and handing out really ridiculous contracts. And have they really improved their teams?

They need to sign Harang to a multi-year contract, and IMO, stay the heck out of this current market when it comes to FA pitchers. And look to next year's FA class when they also will have Milton's contract coming off the books, and that much closer to possibly having Bailey.

GAC
12-19-2006, 09:53 PM
Air dip and wind pudding.

So you're saying he was lying, purposely "jerking our chains", and/or being insincere because he hasn't lived up to those words in his first year as owner of what we all say is a huge mess, isn't going to be fixed overnight, and when their most dire need (pitching) really wouldn't be met by any of the FA pitchers, such as Lily, Marquis, and others, whose record of performance is shaky, and who, due to market demand, are being given ridiculous contracts?

You would somehow be "appeased" if they had done similar? I sure wouldn't. We are languishing under a couple bad contracts now worth almost 20 Mil.

This FO has spent in the past... stupidly too I might ask. ;)

I want them to spend, and I think they will. But I want some wisdom used when they do so, as well as fiscal sanity.

That is not Linderism. ;)

Spring~Fields
12-19-2006, 10:18 PM
So you're saying he was lying, purposely "jerking our chains", and/or being insincere because he hasn't lived up to those words in his first year as owner of what we all say is a huge mess, isn't going to be fixed overnight, and when their most dire need (pitching) really wouldn't be met by any of the FA pitchers, such as Lily, Marquis, and others, whose record of performance is shaky, and who, due to market demand, are being given ridiculous contracts?

You would somehow be "appeased" if they had done similar? I sure wouldn't. We are languishing under a couple bad contracts now worth almost 20 Mil.

This FO has spent in the past... stupidly too I might ask. ;)

I want them to spend, and I think they will. But I want some wisdom used when they do so, as well as fiscal sanity.

That is not Linderism. ;)

Nope, don't recall having said any of that myself.
Reads to optimistic to me.


I just look at what has been, what is, and what most likely will be.

G, I am genuinely interested in the steps that you believe Mr. K should take this season to turn this team into a team that wins more games than they lose.

WVRedsFan
12-20-2006, 01:45 AM
Umm.. and when was the last time the Reds landed a big name Free Agent?

I haven't read this entire thread, so I may be late, but...

Ken Griffey Jr. We've crucified him ever since.

WVRedsFan
12-20-2006, 01:49 AM
"As partners in St. Louis, Tom and Joe Williams and I had front-row seats for the transformation of the St. Louis franchise.

Ten years ago, the Cardinals' situation was almost identical to where the Reds are now. A long-range plan that focused on building a world class organization by putting the right people in the right jobs was put in place. Improved performance led to improved attendance. Improved attendance led to more revenue. More revenue led to more payroll. Now, the Cardinals are a strong, consistent winner.

That's where we want to be. We're buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we are putting a contender on the field ... year in and year out."
-Bob Castellini (January 20, 2006).

Here is my evidence that the Reds are using the Cardinals as their business model. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

Money talks and BS walks.

Talk is cheap.

Evidence is that he loves Krivsky, loves Narron, loves the fans, and loves the history of the Reds. That is all.

Edd Roush
12-20-2006, 02:11 AM
I haven't read this entire thread, so I may be late, but...

Ken Griffey Jr. We've crucified him ever since.

We traded Tomko, Cameron and others to the Mariners for Griff. We didn't sign him as a pure free agent. Certainly the team that was going to trade for Griffey certainly had an advantage of signing him long-term, but no Griff was not a free agent.

And FCB, this is proof that even Uncle Carl made a splash.

LoganBuck
12-20-2006, 02:04 PM
When I opened this thread I was thinking "Victor Zambrano? Why would they have to save dough for him?"

LincolnparkRed
12-20-2006, 02:39 PM
Returning to the original point of the post:

A:Zambrono's a little nuts
B: Dusty Baker has rode him hard the last 4 years
C:A lot of time spent in front of the computer (tendenitis from a couple of years ago)

Looking for any other reasons cite A & B

Edd Roush
12-20-2006, 02:48 PM
Returning to the original point of the post:

A:Zambrono's a little nuts
B: Dusty Baker has rode him hard the last 4 years
C:A lot of time spent in front of the computer (tendenitis from a couple of years ago)

Looking for any other reasons cite A & B

Maybe the Reds need a little nuts. Certainly, he would be one to shake up the status quo. Furthermore, Zambrano seems to have the build to be able to shoulder the load that Dusty has given him. I like the idea of building our team around pitching, and certainly the Minnesota model is built around that same principle. Give me Zambrano and I believe we are big time contenders come '08.

redsfanmia
12-20-2006, 05:38 PM
So you're saying he was lying, purposely "jerking our chains", and/or being insincere because he hasn't lived up to those words in his first year as owner of what we all say is a huge mess, isn't going to be fixed overnight, and when their most dire need (pitching) really wouldn't be met by any of the FA pitchers, such as Lily, Marquis, and others, whose record of performance is shaky, and who, due to market demand, are being given ridiculous contracts?

You would somehow be "appeased" if they had done similar? I sure wouldn't. We are languishing under a couple bad contracts now worth almost 20 Mil.

This FO has spent in the past... stupidly too I might ask. ;)

I want them to spend, and I think they will. But I want some wisdom used when they do so, as well as fiscal sanity.

That is not Linderism. ;)

Cast gave us half price tickets, dollar hot dogs, Marty's son.
Linder gave us free tickets for A's, Griffey Jr, and John Allen.

Linder said he would raise payroll if they were close. Never did
Cast said he would raise payroll if they were close. Didnt do it.

Linder pocketed revenue share money for years (allegedly)
Cast seemingly has pocketed revenue share money from off season. (allegedly)

Cast raises ticket prices after one year and complains about how much free agents cost and wont reveal the budget.
Linder never would reveal the budget.

There are alot of similarities here IMO. Same guys only Cast is more in the public eye.

PuffyPig
12-20-2006, 05:49 PM
While I'm nor suggesting that we might have done otherwise if the crop of FA pitchers was good, I can't blame management for shying away from the current crop. Basically a bunch of crap. Only Zito and Schmidt would interest me at all, and I think both are heading downhill.

Even if salary issues were equal, I'd much rather have Harang than any of the FA pitchers available.Or any of the position players available too.

GAC
12-20-2006, 10:29 PM
Linder said he would raise payroll if they were close. Never did
Cast said he would raise payroll if they were close. Didnt do it.

The payroll for 07 definitely is going up, and will be in the approximate range of 75 Mil when all is said and done....FA signings, arbitration cases pending.

He hasn't spent YET because, looking at their dire need (pitching), there isn't anything worth throwing money at.

You'd be satisfied with the Lily and/or Marquis deals that the Cubs gave out? We're trying to get rid of one already in Milton.


Linder pocketed revenue share money for years (allegedly)
Cast seemingly has pocketed revenue share money from off season. (allegedly)

Allegedly from what source, concerning Castellini?


Cast raises ticket prices after one year and complains about how much free agents cost and wont reveal the budget.
Linder never would reveal the budget.

We're all complaining about the absurd contracts these FAs are getting? Why just pick on Castellini? :lol:

First off - as a private business, the Reds, or any other team, does not have to open their books to anyone or publically reveal their yearly budgets.

And yes, Lindner did raise payroll. Going into the year of the new stadium, that winter prior, many on here were screaming about what's the budget going to be? And then all types of rumor/scare mongering going on then. They then did reveal it, around January, and it went from the low 40's to around 57 Mil.

How can the Reds, or any team, reveal their budget when they are still possibly looking at off-season deals and have arb cases pending? You're really, for the most part, fencing yourself in by publically coming out at this stage of the off-season and announcing the budget when you still have factors that will affect that budget not finalized.

And they are under no obligation to do so.

Before the season starts we'll all know what that budget will be. And it will be revealed according to their time table, not the fan's. ;)


There are alot of similarities here IMO. Same guys only Cast is more in the public eye.

Differences?

Lindner spent, and spent it on stupid or ill-advised contracts.... Larkin, Griffey, Casey, Graves, Milton, just to mention a few.

So far, Castellini has not. That's a plus in my book.

Also. I think we would all agree that Castellini, while a businessman like Lindner, does have more of a baseball "mind", gained from his experience within the Cards organization, that does cause him to be more involved and vocal, and will, IMO, influence future decisions. Lindner hired underlings to do all that for him.

I'm a "wait and see" guy with this new FO crew.

I'm not gonna condemn them after one season and their first off-season, or say they are just like the prior ownership. I don't believe that is being fair and objective.

Cincy fans are fickled. I know, I've been one for way too long. :mooner:

redsfan4445
12-21-2006, 09:33 PM
"As partners in St. Louis, Tom and Joe Williams and I had front-row seats for the transformation of the St. Louis franchise.

Ten years ago, the Cardinals' situation was almost identical to where the Reds are now. A long-range plan that focused on building a world class organization by putting the right people in the right jobs was put in place. Improved performance led to improved attendance. Improved attendance led to more revenue. More revenue led to more payroll. Now, the Cardinals are a strong, consistent winner.

That's where we want to be. We're buying the Reds to win. Anything else is unacceptable. We will not rest until we are putting a contender on the field ... year in and year out."
-Bob Castellini (January 20, 2006).

Here is my evidence that the Reds are using the Cardinals as their business model. Where is your evidence to the contrary?



So we have to wait 10 years then to win?? ARGGGGGGGGGG:thumbdown :bang:

Edd Roush
12-21-2006, 09:35 PM
So we have to wait 10 years then to win?? ARGGGGGGGGGG:thumbdown :bang:

The Cards were division champions before these year. 10 years for a championship is bad, but it's better than the 98 the Cubs have been waiting ;)

redsfan4445
12-21-2006, 09:39 PM
The Cards were division champions before these year. 10 years for a championship is bad, but it's better than the 98 the Cubs have been waiting ;)

well then the Reds can wait 10 years for my money if thats the case !!!:angry:

Edd Roush
12-22-2006, 01:56 AM
well then the Reds can wait 10 years for my money if thats the case !!!:angry:

So are you saying that you are only going to financially support the Reds when they are making their drive to the championship? You must be one of those Bengals fans who magically reappeared when Marvin made the Bengals contenders:p:

What I am saying is, the great thing about baseball is, you don't know for several months how bad or good a team is going to be. Sure, one can give a vague estimate of how a team will perform based upon past stats, but players play above and below their career norms every year. To give up on a baseball team because they aren't the favorites, I feel is foolish. I take the good along with the bad. In major league baseball, even the worst team can take down the best team.

However, if you want to take your entertainment dollars elsewhere, that's your perrogative. All I'm saying is, I'm not going to let the alleged ineptness of other people (BCast, Krivsky, J. Allen) ruin my Reds' experience. Sure, they aren't the Yankees. But every one hates the Yankees any ways :mooner:

GAC
12-22-2006, 04:33 AM
Good posts Ed.

As an "outsider" (fan) looking at this situation in MLB.... it's illustrating a huge problem that is not peculiar to the Reds, but growing throughout all of MLB.

Some seem to think that it's only a problem plaguing the Reds.

I got my eyes opened after reading "Fair Ball: A Fan's Case for Baseball" by Bob Costas.

Until the "caretakers" of the game - and I'm referring to MLB, the owners, and the players - realize that their ineptness and greed are ruining the game, then it's not going to get any better.

They really could care less about the fan.

Becoming a professional ballplayer is more of an avenue to getting rich, rich, rich.

No wonder so many parents these days are really getting involved and pushing their kids into sports.

Who wants their kid to be a doctor or lawyer anymore. Unless they want them to be the "next" Scott Boras. ;)

People say they don't like to hear about the "haves" and "have-nots", and that it's just making excuses.

No..... it's acknowledging the reality and gravity of the situation.

Wait till you all see where Zito signs, and for what.

And then you're wondering why the Reds, and many other organizations, weren't in the hunt??

They haven't been for almost 10 years now thanks to escalating salaries driven by these larger market clubs and simple greed.

Spring~Fields
12-22-2006, 05:43 AM
Money talks and BS walks. Talk is cheap.



Castellini, Krivsky and their puppet Narron have the talk down, but not the walk, "cheap" is their optimum word, not quality or talented.

Can cheap even produce when it comes in the form of other teams discards and throw aways? Moeller, Hamilton, Livingston, Conine, Stanton, Weathers and Crosby. How many years running now have we seen this poor management of player personel.

GAC
12-22-2006, 06:49 AM
G, I am genuinely interested in the steps that you believe Mr. K should take this season to turn this team into a team that wins more games than they lose.

What were our "sore spots" last year?

Starting pitching
defense
bullpen

The issue of runs allowed and/or run production needs to be addressed.

If one cannot address the runs allowed, which is related to pitching and defense, then they must look to run production (offense).

We have addressed a vital area when it comes to defense (middle INF) with Gonzalez. Now if we can just move Jr from CF, then we have done alot to improve that area.

Starting Pitching? The Reds, as well as a vast majority of teams in MLB, have not been able to seriously address this most vital need.

So why should I be screaming at Castellini and/or Krivsky for not filling a need that so many teams have not been able to fill this off-season due to supply and demand? Or who are handing out ridiculous contracts to marginal/average players?

That is somehow their fault?

I guess they should continue to try and beef up the bullpen (middle relief), which again, everyone else is trying to do also.

People are upset for this lack of activity/movement by this FO, but I think this is one of the worst markets, not just because of costs (contracts), but because of available talent, that I have seen in a long while.

This has been a seller's market for the most part. And those that are selling are demanding/getting inflated prices for their wares.

My son wants a Nintendo Wii for Christmas. So does everyone else. Those that have them are taking advantage of the market conditions and selling them for unrealistic inflated prices before the market corrects itself.

And some idiots are paying it too. ;)

I'll wait for the market to get better.

The market may never get better as far as inflated contracts; but it will get better as far as talent available.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that Castellini, because of what he has learned in the Card's organization, will spend for that right impact player. But that player isn't available in this current market.

The only one I saw who was maybe even close was a Carlos Lee; but I hope their future goal is to find that impact OFer at some point, and move Dunn to 1B.

Is that type of OFer currently available in this off-season?

And before anyone brings it up.... yes.... it is one reason why I didn't care for "the trade", because I would have loved to have had Ears out there in RF.

But continually rehashing that is not gonna help us now, now is it? So lets move on.

I know that Castellini wants to win, and has said he wants to win NOW. And some are really going out of their way to really try and hang him on this. But having that desire (which I believe he has) is quite different from being able to acquire those "pieces" that will complete this team for a more long term effect.

I really don't care about winning now (2007 per say) if it's not going to have a lasting, long term effect on this team.

This cannot be fixed overnight.

I want consistency in competitiveness out of the Reds. And looking at the financial insanity of MLB currently, the only way the Reds (and alot of teams) can accomplish that is by.... an established pool of talent in the farm system mixed with a key signing and/or acquistion of that high impact player.

I'm sorry - we can't be like the Yanks, Sox, or Cubs as far as over-the-top spending. So why lament that?

We need a 3rd solid SP. Thanks to this market, we may have to wait for Homer Bailey while throwing serious money at Harang and Arroyo to keep them.

But if a guy like Arroyo doesn't really want to pitch for Cincy (and we get mixed signals sometimes), regardless of the solid money we may offer him, then is that the fault of this FO? Or is that an indicator of the problem that exists in MLB?

We need a impact OFer. I go with OFer because I'd like to see Dunn retained and moved to 1B. Does this current market offer that? Gary Mathews? No thanks.

Is the deal Toronto gave Vernon Wells worth it?

Yet these kind of deals set a standard and make it harder on teams like the Reds and others.

Do we then have to keep looking while waiting (hoping) that a Jay Bruce comes through? Or a Joey Votto at 1B?

I'm not pinning my hopes on 2007 SF. As I have stated previously, I want to see those incremental steps taken to mainly firm up this farm system. Because under the current system, that is the only way a team like the Reds are going to be able to compete for the most part in the future.

But they also have 20 Mil tied up (and that is alot of money) in two marginal players in Jr and Milton.

So I'd rather see them make little movement right now, other them making sure they retain some of the quality players we now have on this roster (which is gonna cost money), wait for those contracts that are hamstringing us (no pun intended) to be gone, and then have even more money to spend on that impact player(s) that can help us when they become available.

And yes, that may not be until the following year.

Spring~Fields
12-22-2006, 07:50 AM
What were our "sore spots" last year?

Starting pitching
defense
bullpen

The issue of runs allowed and/or run production needs to be addressed.

If one cannot address the runs allowed, which is related to pitching and defense, then they must look to run production (offense).

We have addressed a vital area when it comes to defense (middle INF) with Gonzalez. Now if we can just move Jr from CF, then we have done alot to improve that area.

Starting Pitching? The Reds, as well as a vast majority of teams in MLB, have not been able to seriously address this most vital need.

So why should I be screaming at Castellini and/or Krivsky for not filling a need that so many teams have not been able to fill this off-season due to supply and demand? Or who are handing out ridiculous contracts to marginal/average players?

That is somehow their fault?

I guess they should continue to try and beef up the bullpen (middle relief), which again, everyone else is trying to do also.

People are upset for this lack of activity/movement by this FO, but I think this is one of the worst markets, not just because of costs (contracts), but because of available talent, that I have seen in a long while.

This has been a seller's market for the most part. And those that are selling are demanding/getting inflated prices for their wares.

My son wants a Nintendo Wii for Christmas. So does everyone else. Those that have them are taking advantage of the market conditions and selling them for unrealistic inflated prices before the market corrects itself.

And some idiots are paying it too. ;)

I'll wait for the market to get better.

The market may never get better as far as inflated contracts; but it will get better as far as talent available.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that Castellini, because of what he has learned in the Card's organization, will spend for that right impact player. But that player isn't available in this current market.

The only one I saw who was maybe even close was a Carlos Lee; but I hope their future goal is to find that impact OFer at some point, and move Dunn to 1B.

Is that type of OFer currently available in this off-season?

And before anyone brings it up.... yes.... it is one reason why I didn't care for "the trade", because I would have loved to have had Ears out there in RF.

But continually rehashing that is not gonna help us now, now is it? So lets move on.

I know that Castellini wants to win, and has said he wants to win NOW. And some are really going out of their way to really try and hang him on this. But having that desire (which I believe he has) is quite different from being able to acquire those "pieces" that will complete this team for a more long term effect.

I really don't care about winning now (2007 per say) if it's not going to have a lasting, long term effect on this team.

This cannot be fixed overnight.

I want consistency in competitiveness out of the Reds. And looking at the financial insanity of MLB currently, the only way the Reds (and alot of teams) can accomplish that is by.... an established pool of talent in the farm system mixed with a key signing and/or acquistion of that high impact player.

I'm sorry - we can't be like the Yanks, Sox, or Cubs as far as over-the-top spending. So why lament that?

We need a 3rd solid SP. Thanks to this market, we may have to wait for Homer Bailey while throwing serious money at Harang and Arroyo to keep them.

But if a guy like Arroyo doesn't really want to pitch for Cincy (and we get mixed signals sometimes), regardless of the solid money we may offer him, then is that the fault of this FO? Or is that an indicator of the problem that exists in MLB?

We need a impact OFer. I go with OFer because I'd like to see Dunn retained and moved to 1B. Does this current market offer that? Gary Mathews? No thanks.

Is the deal Toronto gave Vernon Wells worth it?

Yet these kind of deals set a standard and make it harder on teams like the Reds and others.

Do we then have to keep looking while waiting (hoping) that a Jay Bruce comes through? Or a Joey Votto at 1B?

I'm not pinning my hopes on 2007 SF. As I have stated previously, I want to see those incremental steps taken to mainly firm up this farm system. Because under the current system, that is the only way a team like the Reds are going to be able to compete for the most part in the future.

But they also have 20 Mil tied up (and that is alot of money) in two marginal players in Jr and Milton.

So I'd rather see them make little movement right now, other them making sure they retain some of the quality players we now have on this roster (which is gonna cost money), wait for those contracts that are hamstringing us (no pun intended) to be gone, and then have even more money to spend on that impact player(s) that can help us when they become available.

And yes, that may not be until the following year.

Well now I can fully understand your position, especially when I read
I really don't care about winning now (2007 per say) if it's not going to have a lasting, long term effect on this team. I can see how that would effect your thoughts and position on the current Reds. Though your thoughts appear to be somewhat of a plan that I think that various Reds management has tried what you are reflecting for some time without success. The chances of minor league talent working out is very slim if that is what you are pinning your hopes on.

Saying that about 2007 might be fine if we had not said the same things after 2001, then 2002, then again in 2003, then 2004, 2005, 2006, somewhere, sometime, something needs to change that losing, beyond marketing hype by the Reds PR department that helps them with their press exploits. Somewhere the words become invalid when year after year produces negative outcomes.

When you really don’t care about the Reds having a winning team, I can see why such 40 some moves of no real consequence, would not be a problem for you.

But as far as was a Lilly, Suppan, Huff or Wilson out there to potentially put the Reds over the top in the Central, they might have been, and the Reds probably could have afforded them if not out bided and out managed by the competitors. Two seasons running Krivsky will have been dumpster diving, do you really think he has some other mindset, that he will magically modify to, two to three years from now? The money situation won’t really be that much better, and Ohio fans won’t support a loser, the new broom is going to wear down just like the old broom, to them, so attendance won‘t be going up.

As far as demanding a better product from Castellini and Krivsky, I think that all of the consumers that are Reds fans should demand more, because they deserve better. Those guys are not going to move off center until they feel it in the financials or negative public feedback. If they can't find talent, then find someone that can in the enviroment that exist.

redsfan4445
12-22-2006, 07:56 AM
GAC,

I read your comments and i have these questions:

1) With the way the market is going, 2008,2009 and beyond will continue to go up with salaries how in the world do you see the market correcting itself?. How in the world will the Reds ownership tell fans they want to WIN, when they really dont want to spend money to bring talent into Cincinnati in the next couple of years, and expect the Reds fans to keep paying higher ticket prices to sit and wait for a future that may never come, when it is obvious the Cards, Cubs, Astros and Brewers(offering a 4 year deal to Suppan) will spend to bring somebody in??>??

2) There will be better free agent talent next year and the following, do you think with what players saw Matthews Jr get for haveing a career year, they will ask for less???? NOWAY!! Dunn will get 18million a year on the free agent market when its his turn.. you watch!!!

3) Do you think this team will ever win without coughing up money to bring in a star pitcher or position player in the coming years?? NOWAY when we have to compete with the Cubs, Cards and Astros doing exactly this!!

Spring~Fields
12-22-2006, 08:17 AM
3) Do you think this team will ever win without coughing up money to bring in a star pitcher or position player in the coming years?? NOWAY when we have to compete with the Cubs, Cards and Astros doing exactly this!!

These teams never seem to rest when it comes to building up there minor league systems, acquiring free agents or making a trade to help solve a problem. The Reds approach might be fine if they only had to play against themselves year after year. These teams are not done yet either, they are still looking to improve their teams just as the Reds have for the past six seasons and moving forward, they also have done a better job than the Reds if the won loss record means anything.

GAC
12-22-2006, 08:21 AM
Though your thoughts appear to be somewhat of a plan that I think that various Reds management has tried what you are reflecting for some time without success.

Yes. A very inept FO (i.e Bowden, Dano, Lindner, Allen). It's hard to see the light when your own collective heads are up your butt. ;)


The chances of minor league talent working out is very slim if that is what you are pinning your hopes on.

Tell that to similar organizations such as the As, Twins, and Marlins.

I agree that it takes a greater effort, and you have to have the right personnel in those respective areas of scouting and development in order to implement and maintain such a system.

But looking at the current situation a lot of ML teams like the Reds have been facing, and will continue to face in the future unless it is fixed, they really have no other choice.

Again - an organization that is financially constrained, and alot are, has to implement and rely on such a system while also pinpointing and spending their money on more "secure" and dependable player investments. Are there any of those currently available in this current FA market?

What pitchers meet that criteria? That is our most pressing need.


When you really don’t care about the Reds having a winning team, I can see why such 40 some moves of no real consequence, would not be a problem for you.

It's not that I don't care about winning SF. My statement made was more around the belief that the Red's problems, really componded by the previous FO, are far greater to be simply fixed "overnight". It's just that I also believe I take a more realistic approach to the Red's "plight" when I stand back and look at the dire financial insanity (environment) that has evolved in MLB over the last decade.

No one denies that quality talent costs. But we aren't seeing quality talent being signed to these ridiculous deals now are we? ;)

Again - pinpoint your needs, and then utilize your money to really make that serious effort to go after that impact player(s). Like the Cards did with a Scott Rolen for example.



But as far as was a Lilly, Suppan, Huff or Wilson out there to potentially put the Reds over the top in the Central, they might have been, and the Reds probably could have afforded them if not out bided and out managed by the competitors.

Out bid- yes. Out managed? Very questionable.


Two years running Krivsky will have been dumpster diving, do you really think he has some other mindset, that he will magically modify to, two to three years from now?

I think he should be given the opportunity to see where it takes us first. 10 months on the job is not a very good indicator IMHO.


The money situation won’t really be that much better

After 07 and then 08, having the Milton and Jr contracts off the books, equaling 20 Mil/year, won't make the money situation better?


and Ohio fans won’t support a loser, the new broom is going to wear down just like the old broom, to them, so attendance won‘t be going up.

Heck! Ohio fans have been supporting losers like the Bengals, Browns, Indians, Reds, and even OSU (at times) for quite some time. :mooner:

Did Marvin Lewis turn the Bengals around overnight? He got them to 8-8 their first two seasons, but it wasn't until last year they had their first winning season and made the post-season.

The Browns? We may never know. ;)

I've been an OSU fan for over 40 years. How long between national championships did they go?

All I have said SF is that I am going to give Castellini and Krivsky a chance to turn this organization around and heading in the right direction.

And objectively - being on the job 10 months is not long enough.


As far as demanding a better product from Castellini and Krivsky, I think that all of the consumers that are Reds fans should demand more, because they deserve better. Those guys are not going to move off center until they feel it in the financials or negative public feedback. If they can't find talent, then find someone that can in the enviroment that exist.

Not too many other teams are finding talent in this market either. Yet they are still paying out the wazoo for the marginal stuff.

Just read where the Brewers have tendered Suppan a 4 year deal with the financial details yet unknown. Wanna bet it's not less then 40 Mil? ;)

Is he worth that? Not to most experts.

GAC
12-22-2006, 08:42 AM
GAC,

I read your comments and i have these questions:

1) With the way the market is going, 2008,2009 and beyond will continue to go up with salaries how in the world do you see the market correcting itself?. How in the world will the Reds ownership tell fans they want to WIN, when they really dont want to spend money to bring talent into Cincinnati in the next couple of years, and expect the Reds fans to keep paying higher ticket prices to sit and wait for a future that may never come, when it is obvious the Cards, Cubs, Astros and Brewers(offering a 4 year deal to Suppan) will spend to bring somebody in??>??

Again - does spending always correlate to winning? Ask Baltimore, and even the Mets at one point.

I don't believe it is an issue of not wanting to spend on bringing talent to Cincy by this new FO.

What it's all about, IMHO, is spending frivolously on inflated contracts for marginal players that may/may not help; but could easily burn an organization like the Reds.

We lamented the Milton contract, can't wait for it to disappear, yet are NOW screaming, because the market dictates it, that it wouldn't be so bad to do it again for a Lily, Suppan, Marquis?

Yeah - one of these guys may or may not help us. But look at their overall performance history. What do you think?

A contract like that could do far more damage then good IMO. And then a team like the Reds is stuck.



2) There will be better free agent talent next year and the following, do you think with what players saw Matthews Jr get for haveing a career year, they will ask for less????

I never said, nor implied, they would be getting or asking for less. The issue is about talent. I want the FO to show some sort of smarts. If and when you commit that kind of money, and maybe even more, then do so for a player that meets numerous criteria.... age, established, proven record, etc.

Minimize your chances of getting burned.


Dunn will get 18million a year on the free agent market when its his turn.. you watch!!!

Not unless his overall numbers improve. He'll never see 18 Mil/year.


3) Do you think this team will ever win without coughing up money to bring in a star pitcher or position player in the coming years??

Did they have to cough it up to get Harang and Arroyo? Is Bailey the real deal? Most of the coaches at Chattanooga say he is.

Other than Zito, what "star" pitchers are available?

I wish I had an ESPN Insider subscription so I could read the Rob Neyer article on Zito And his "real" numbers....

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/insider/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=2702157&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fhotstove06%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumn ist%3dneyer_rob%26id%3d2702157


NOWAY when we have to compete with the Cubs, Cards and Astros doing exactly this!!

What improving movements have the Cards made?

Here's theirs so far....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/transactions?team=stl

The Astros signed Lee, which will help their woeful offense; but where is their pitching now?

Cubs? Yeah, they have spent the money. I as a Reds fan, cannot lament that. Are you saying we should be spending at the same level they are if we were really serious? We can't.

And have they really improved themselves? I'm glad Marquis is still in the division. ;)

Ltlabner
12-22-2006, 06:32 PM
With the way the market is going, 2008,2009 and beyond will continue to go up with salaries how in the world do you see the market correcting itself?. How in the world will the Reds ownership tell fans they want to WIN, when they really dont want to spend money to bring talent into Cincinnati in the next couple of years,

I don't think it's unreasonable conjecture that FO and ownership were shocked by the wacky FA market and had to step back and reevaluate their plans very quickly. But assuming that is true, it does not follow that they will continue to want to "not spend" for the remainder of their ownership.

With the sums of money involved, it's not uncommon for lots of discussions to take place, minority owners consulted, different financial models to be explored, different revenue streams to be tweeked, etc. All of this takes time.

In other words money they are not willing to spend now, they may be perfectally willing to spend in the future.

Spring~Fields
12-22-2006, 08:41 PM
Yes. A very inept FO (i.e Bowden, Dano, Lindner, Allen). It's hard to see the light when your own collective heads are up your butt. ;)
:devil: :laugh: :laugh:

Spring~Fields
12-22-2006, 08:49 PM
Heck! Ohio fans have been supporting losers like the Bengals, Browns, Indians, Reds, and even OSU (at times) for quite some time. :mooner:


That's it, turn in your Tressel jammies, Ginn footies, and Woody tie, the nerve to mention those teams within the same sentence as Ohio State. :evil:

Football only has eight home games in the pro's and they are the only show in town during the winter. Baseball attendance for the Reds and Indians goes down when they don't have a good team, the Big Red Machine could only draw 2.6 million.

This AAA geriatric crew that Krivsky and Narron has billed Castellini for won't draw flies eventually. :mooner:

GAC
12-23-2006, 07:47 AM
Football only has eight home games in the pro's and they are the only show in town during the winter. Baseball attendance for the Reds and Indians goes down when they don't have a good team, the Big Red Machine could only draw 2.6 million.

This AAA geriatric crew that Krivsky and Narron has billed Castellini for won't draw flies eventually. :mooner:

Cincy fans are fickled as can be. Even when they have been good they have had attendance problems at times. Remember the FO's plea to the fans during the '99 season? Where was everyone?

I agree that your "casual" fans may not go. But us "hardcore" idiotic fans will always be there complaining. :lol:

Spring~Fields
12-23-2006, 10:46 AM
Cincy fans are fickled as can be.

I prefer to think that they are wise consumers and know the difference of a good product and a poor product. Traditionally we can expect that the one seeking to attract consumers, provides the good product "first" then the consumer elects to purchase, the Reds seem to think that the fans should pay first and then maybe in future years the Reds will put a good product on the field of entertainment. The "fickle" taxpayers of Hamilton county that paid first can speak to that better than I.