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View Full Version : Could/Should we sign Harang for more/less than Bonderman?



Benihana
12-19-2006, 05:42 PM
Does Aaron Harang deserve more or less money than Jeremy Bonderman over a four year deal? If you were GM, would you sign him to a comparable deal?

I would sign him to the exact same deal Bonderman got, provided he would take it.

Highlifeman21
12-19-2006, 06:12 PM
I sign and trade Harang.

By the time this team might be remotely ready to win, Harang will be on the decline.

Sell him while his value is high.

Let another team re-sign him.

Red Leader
12-19-2006, 06:18 PM
I would try to go 1M less than the Bonderman deal.

Bonderman's deal calls for:

2007: $4.5M
2008: $8.5M
2009: $12.5M
2010: $12.5M

Total: $38M

I would try to do this with Harang:

2007: $5.0M
2008: $8.0M
2009: $10.0M
2010: $14.0M

Total: $37M

Doing it this way provides savings to the Reds to continue to build a good, solid young core and also bring in some F.A.'s the next couple of years. The 2010 salary of 14.0M looks big, but that's what a lot of free agent pitchers are going to be averaging on 3-5 year contracts in this market.

Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 06:34 PM
I would try to go 1M less than the Bonderman deal.

Bonderman's deal calls for:

2007: $4.5M
2008: $8.5M
2009: $12.5M
2010: $12.5M

Total: $38M

I would try to do this with Harang:

2007: $5.0M
2008: $8.0M
2009: $10.0M
2010: $14.0M

Total: $37M

Doing it this way provides savings to the Reds to continue to build a good, solid young core and also bring in some F.A.'s the next couple of years. The 2010 salary of 14.0M looks big, but that's what a lot of free agent pitchers are going to be averaging on 3-5 year contracts in this market.


Red Leader, you should negotiate contracts for the Reds. The contract seems completely reasonable for both the Reds and Harang.

Highlifeman, I completely disagree with you. You are not going to Harang's value back in a trade and you keep a good pitcher who doesn't get hurt as long as you possibly can. Trading Harang, Bailey or even Arroyo would be a very bad idea.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 06:35 PM
I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the Reds traded Harang, for two reasons:

1. Wayne didn't acquire him.

2. He will cost a bundle, and my guess is the Reds are in all-out rebuild mode as we speak (it's just that the other shoe hasn't dropped just yet).

Edd Roush
12-19-2006, 06:40 PM
I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the Reds traded Harang, for two reasons:

1. Wayne didn't acquire him.

2. He will cost a bundle, and my guess is the Reds are in all-out rebuild mode as we speak (it's just that the other shoe hasn't dropped just yet).

I really hope you are incorrect about point #1. If that is true, Reds' fans could be in trouble for a long time. I really hope that Wayne would deal off a key cog to his team, simply because he didn't acquire him. I also see no reason to believe that the Reds are in rebuild mode. I see no evidence to believe this is so.

Johnny Footstool
12-19-2006, 06:46 PM
I don't think the Reds are actually in rebuild mode. They're in "scratch by" mode, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle.

If they did go into full-blown rebuild mode, trading Harang would bring a king's ransom in return.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 06:48 PM
I don't think the Reds are actually in rebuild mode. They're in "scratch by" mode, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle.

If they did go into full-blown rebuild mode, trading Harang would bring a king's ransom in return.

Not full-blown Marlins 10 million dollar payroll rebuild, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see reverse-coursing.

I think the stickershock of this offseason has sent chills down this organization's collective spine, and they're reassessing--hence, the inactivity after an almost psychotic flurry of activity over the summer.

M2
12-19-2006, 07:12 PM
Not full-blown Marlins 10 million dollar payroll rebuild, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see reverse-coursing.

I think the stickershock of this offseason has sent chills down this organization's collective spine, and they're reassessing--hence, the inactivity after an almost psychotic flurry of activity over the summer.

I hope you're wrong because that's not rebuilding, it's just standing still. It's an invitation to a decade in the doldrums.

In fact, I'm not even sure what my motivation as a fan is if the team won't strive to get better right now or do a serious rebuild.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 07:14 PM
I hope you're wrong because that's not rebuilding, it's just standing still. It's an invitation to a decade in the doldrums.

In fact, I'm not even sure what my motivation as a fan is if the team won't strive to get better right now or do a serious rebuild.

Hey, it hasn't worked for 10 years, why would this franchise stop now?

M2
12-19-2006, 07:59 PM
Hey, it hasn't worked for 10 years, why would this franchise stop now?

My guess is you'll see a huge chunk of the fanbase lapse over to complete apathy if all the club has to show for the offseason is Alex Gonzalez and Mike Stanton (and the retention of David Weathers, maybe the team's most exciting move since re-signing Mark Wohlers).

The sense I get is that many have been counting on another bout of Krivsky's hyperactivity and for the new ownership to demand and support dramatic changes (whether it be spending more cash or getting behind a major rebuild). If this is all we get then it's just the New Irrelevance.

Highlifeman21
12-19-2006, 08:03 PM
Red Leader, you should negotiate contracts for the Reds. The contract seems completely reasonable for both the Reds and Harang.

Highlifeman, I completely disagree with you. You are not going to Harang's value back in a trade and you keep a good pitcher who doesn't get hurt as long as you possibly can. Trading Harang, Bailey or even Arroyo would be a very bad idea.


And disagreement is what makes the board unique.

I hope more than anything we build around Harang, but the Reds aren't contenders in 2007, and don't get drunk off the Bailey/Votto kool-aid thinking that we'll be contenders in 2008 based on the current roster.

I want the Reds to win as much or more than the next guy, but I have to be realistic about what I see on this roster. This team will be lucky to win 80 games next year.

Again, I want to see us keep Harang, but what good is Harang on a team that won't win 80 games in 2007 or 2008?

Spring~Fields
12-19-2006, 08:13 PM
Again, I want to see us keep Harang, but what good is Harang on a team that won't win 80 games in 2007 or 2008?

I want to see good pitching stay with the Reds though I don't think that Harang will sign long term with the Reds, I think that he will want to head back to the west coast.

Ravenlord
12-19-2006, 09:45 PM
I want to see good pitching stay with the Reds though I don't think that Harang will sign long term with the Reds, I think that he will want to head back to the west coast.

i disagree with that notion. i think Harang will want to resign for the simple reason the Reds simply gave him a chance. and i know personally, and from other fellow that i've worked with (amazingly to me, overwhelmingly so), that being given that chance furnishes some loyalty wheather or not the employer is deserving of it or not.

i would builid around Harang. i think he's kind of a Jack Morris type that even though he's thrown a lot pitches over many inings it won't neccessarily hurt them. i think if you sign Harang long term now, on the principle that 2008 or 09 is the WS goal, he'll go all in favor (especially if you can explain run differential to him). tell him that you're hanging on to Encarnacion, Phillips, and possibly Votto in all out effort to win the Ring in 08 or 09 and you just might land Harang well below market value. Hell, if you can sell him on that, throw in an option for him to opt in 09.

unlike many stat-centric posters here, i feel Harang can relatively answer to the workload he's been given the last year or two, and keep doing it year in and year out (within reason). i think if you can sell Harang, and to lesser extent after next year, Encarnacion and Votto, on the Ring in 08 or 09, you can sign them all for cheap long term.

the only problem is, is that i don't if Krivsky is that good of a salesman. only time (probably this offseason) will tell on that part.

Spring~Fields
12-19-2006, 10:41 PM
i disagree with that notion. i think Harang will want to resign for the simple reason the Reds simply gave him a chance. and i know personally, and from other fellow that i've worked with (amazingly to me, overwhelmingly so), that being given that chance furnishes some loyalty wheather or not the employer is deserving of it or not.

i would builid around Harang. i think he's kind of a Jack Morris type that even though he's thrown a lot pitches over many inings it won't neccessarily hurt them. i think if you sign Harang long term now, on the principle that 2008 or 09 is the WS goal, he'll go all in favor (especially if you can explain run differential to him). tell him that you're hanging on to Encarnacion, Phillips, and possibly Votto in all out effort to win the Ring in 08 or 09 and you just might land Harang well below market value. Hell, if you can sell him on that, throw in an option for him to opt in 09.

unlike many stat-centric posters here, i feel Harang can relatively answer to the workload he's been given the last year or two, and keep doing it year in and year out (within reason). i think if you can sell Harang, and to lesser extent after next year, Encarnacion and Votto, on the Ring in 08 or 09, you can sign them all for cheap long term.

the only problem is, is that i don't if Krivsky is that good of a salesman. only time (probably this offseason) will tell on that part.

I like your point of view, I really do. I am for the Reds working hard to sign their very best pitchers and selling them on what they might be in the future. Yet, I don’t think that the players of today look so much at the loyalty factor from just one side, I think that they see that as a two-way street and that they will take into consideration that they have been loyal to the Reds and have done a good job, while the team itself has languished to build a winner, failed to acquire the necessary talent to make the team a winner. So I can see players considering their family, their career longevity vs. income making years and being on a winner in a city that they believe will have all the added for themselves and family.

I will be happy but very surprised if Harang signs as cheaply as Bonderman did and for the long term as he did and we know to date that the Reds are not big on large, long term contracts. I just don't see Harang and Arroyo staying longer than they have to. Hope I am wrong.

Falls City Beer
12-19-2006, 11:13 PM
My guess is you'll see a huge chunk of the fanbase lapse over to complete apathy if all the club has to show for the offseason is Alex Gonzalez and Mike Stanton (and the retention of David Weathers, maybe the team's most exciting move since re-signing Mark Wohlers).

The sense I get is that many have been counting on another bout of Krivsky's hyperactivity and for the new ownership to demand and support dramatic changes (whether it be spending more cash or getting behind a major rebuild). If this is all we get then it's just the New Irrelevance.

I'm sure they've got a few payroll-neutral zingers coming in February. I'm busy cutting out holes-for-eyes in the brown paper bags I'm planning to wear over my head when the deals are announced.

With Krivsky, you can't keep a labile man down for long.

edabbs44
12-19-2006, 11:27 PM
I'm sure they've got a few payroll-neutral zingers coming in February. I'm busy cutting out holes-for-eyes in the brown paper bags I'm planning to wear over my head when the deals are announced.

With Krivsky, you can't keep a labile man down for long.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/05/18/mptCwglN.jpg

Reds1
12-20-2006, 12:24 AM
I sign and trade Harang.

By the time this team might be remotely ready to win, Harang will be on the decline.

Sell him while his value is high.

Let another team re-sign him.


I thought the idea was to try and win now. We need pitching and you want to trade our #1 and for what. Harang still has a couple cheaper years and if we can get a surprise from a Homer or EZ or even KL we might have a decent starting line up.

LoganBuck
12-20-2006, 08:54 AM
Milton's money is off the books after this year. Just allot those resources plus some to Harang. You won't find anyone better.

bucksfan
12-20-2006, 10:05 AM
Milton's money is off the books after this year. Just allot those resources plus some to Harang. You won't find anyone better.

I agree. I still think we are in "win now" mode, or at least we should be. Although not a landmark signing by any means, I don't think WK would sign Gonzalez to a 14m/3yr deal if he wasn't trying to better position the team this year. Now that may not have been the sole answer we are all looking for (I know it isn't) but it is one of them. More does need to happen to reaffirm my belief that the ownership is actualloy trying to win now (2007), but I also understand that just because they may want to fill certain holes does not make the proper deal or opportunity available.

I will remain in wait-and-see mode, because as a fan that's all I can do. It's not worth it to me to be anguishing over perceived missed opportunities by management.

KoryMac5
12-20-2006, 01:13 PM
Harang will be 29 in May which puts him in his prime as far as pitchers go. I would sign him to a 4yr extension at or close to what Bonderman is making. This gives the Reds a good starting pitcher at below market level for the next four years this also makes him an attractive commodity to other teams as well. We all know that he is a different pitcher away from GABP.

Johnny Footstool
12-20-2006, 01:23 PM
I don't know how we can consider the Reds to be in "win now" mode. A team in "Win Now" mode wouldn't have Milton/Lohse/nobody in the rotation, or a bullpen with no lockdown arms and David Weathers as the closer.

They're walking the tightrope between "win now" and "build for the future". The result of that approach will most likely be a pair of .500 seasons before the current core of the team (namely Arroyo, Harang, Dunn) exits via free agency.

I'm all in favor of keeping good pitching *as long as the team is committed to winning big* while that good pitching is here. If not, you should maximize the return in a trade.

NJReds
12-20-2006, 01:29 PM
and my guess is the Reds are in all-out rebuild mode as we speak (it's just that the other shoe hasn't dropped just yet).

I'm convinced that the Reds have been and will continue to be in a constant state of rebuild, doing just enough to keep casual fans interested but never enough to actually win. And they, like other small-to-mid-market owners will point at the big-market clubs as the reason for not being able to compete.

redsmetz
12-20-2006, 06:29 PM
I'm convinced that the Reds have been and will continue to be in a constant state of rebuild, doing just enough to keep casual fans interested but never enough to actually win. And they, like other small-to-mid-market owners will point at the big-market clubs as the reason for not being able to compete.

That seems like a horrible business plan. Why on earth would they do that? The dearth of championships, while long, is not unprecedented. Why the belief that this ship can't be righted?

Patrick Bateman
12-20-2006, 09:09 PM
We all know that he is a different pitcher away from GABP.

Actually, Harang's home/road splits are pretty close.

westofyou
12-20-2006, 09:10 PM
I'm busy cutting out holes-for-eyes in the brown paper bags I'm planning to wear over my head when the deals are announced.

Fandom at its finest.

Caveat Emperor
12-20-2006, 09:28 PM
I don't think the Reds are actually in rebuild mode. They're in "scratch by" mode, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle.

If they were in rebuilding mode, you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't tell anyone about it until the last date to get season ticket deposits in by has passed.

mth123
12-20-2006, 09:44 PM
Harang is better than anyone who will come up in free agency. True aces get locked-up these days. That is part of what has driven up the market for middle or back of the rotation guys. It hasn't just been this year, the same thing happened the year the Reds signed Milton (but the money is a little bigger now). No true aces came out this year and only Schmidt is in Harang's class in this year's crop - and he's older and on the way down IMO.

If the Reds are saving their money for a big time starter to lead the staff, Harang is about the best guy they'll have a chance to negotiate with. Sign him.