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View Full Version : When is it time to rebuild who gets dealt?



KoryMac5
12-20-2006, 12:27 PM
Due to much talk on the board about rebuilding I offer two questions?

It's two weeks before the trade deadline 2007 what place are the Reds in and who are you dealing?


I feel the Reds are in third place and too far back to make a run at the Redbirds and Baby Bears.

I deal Hatte
Stanton
Weathers
Griffey

I would also listen to offers on Arroyo and Harang

NJReds
12-20-2006, 12:30 PM
There are no untouchables on the Reds 25-man roster.

Z-Fly
12-20-2006, 12:33 PM
How many times are we going to have to rebuild this house before it gets done the right way?

Team Clark
12-20-2006, 12:34 PM
8-10 games back... start dealing July 15th.

Dunn
Arroyo
Hatte
Stanton (he's used to it)
Womack (:laugh: ) JK
Castro

Team Clark
12-20-2006, 12:35 PM
How many times are we going to have to rebuild this house before it gets done the right way?

Good question. I will say... Twice. Any takers on three?

VI_RedsFan
12-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Here's who you deal:

Hatteberg
Weathers
Cormier
Stanton
Griffey
Milton

Try to get some good prospects in return and build the offense around Dunn, Encarnacion and the rotation around Harang, Arroyo. You then call up the likes of Bailey, Votto, Salmon, etc. Make Votto an everyday player at firstbase, put Homer in the rotation, and give Salmon a chance to be our closer (along with Bray).

Now, do I see us doing this? Nope, considering we have Bob "Win Now" Castellini as our owner. I think it is probably a good idea, but I just seriously doubt we would rebuild.

Z-Fly
12-20-2006, 12:36 PM
8-10 games back... start dealing July 15th.

Dunn
Arroyo
Hatte
Stanton (he's used to it)
Womack (:laugh: ) JK
Castro

I like your list but would like to add who ever the RH 1st basemen is.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 12:39 PM
Agreed with NJReds.

It depends on what moves are made the rest of this offseason, but assuming nothing big happens, and we're completely out of the race on August 29th, I listen to offers for Arroyo, Harang, and Dunn in particular. Ross if he's having another decnet year as well.

The others: Stanton, Weathers, Milton, Griffey, Hatteberg, Cormier, Majewski, Valentin, Gonzalez etc, I'm shopping all of the time, not just "if we're out of it."

The players I look to keep are: Edwin for sure, and maybe Phillips and Denorfia depending on how their seasons are going next year.

The only one I don't want to deal in reality is Edwin.



Harang and Arroyo should each net me 2 starting players, whether position players or pitchers, with very high ceilings. Dunn should do the same. Ross should net me a solid prospect (if he's having another good season). You deal those 4 players and you should get back 7 very, very good young players. You add those to Edwin, Votto, Bruce, and Homer and we may be onto something.

Z-Fly
12-20-2006, 12:44 PM
Agreed with NJReds.

It depends on what moves are made the rest of this offseason, but assuming nothing big happens, and we're completely out of the race on August 29th, I listen to offers for Arroyo, Harang, and Dunn in particular. Ross if he's having another decnet year as well.

The others: Stanton, Weathers, Milton, Griffey, Hatteberg, Cormier, Majewski, Valentin, Gonzalez etc, I'm shopping all of the time, not just "if we're out of it."

The players I look to keep are: Edwin for sure, and maybe Phillips and Denorfia depending on how their seasons are going next year.

The only one I don't want to deal in reality is Edwin.



Harang and Arroyo should each net me 2 starting players, whether position players or pitchers, with very high ceilings. Dunn should do the same. Ross should net me a solid prospect (if he's having another good season). You deal those 4 players and you should get back 7 very, very good young players. You add those to Edwin, Votto, Bruce, and Homer and we may be onto something.

I would guess it would be pretty hard to trade 13 players. Even if you could it would be hard to get value out of all them. If you did get value out of them it would net you very good prospects most likely, not very good players. Not all good prospects turn into good players.

Team Clark
12-20-2006, 12:48 PM
I like your list but would like to add who ever the RH 1st basemen is.

I know this sounds a little crazy BUT I wouldn't mind the Reds acquiring Lance Niekro. I know I know I know... He hasn't exactly RAKED the last two seasons. I'm not sure THAT player is out there at a reasonable price. Lance is 27 and still relatively cheap. I do believe that he can improve and be productive in GABP as a platoon player. A change of scenery, new hitting coach and less pressure may help him. The death of his father may really push him too. I'd rather acquire him on the cheap than overpay for some of the FA names out there.

Z-Fly
12-20-2006, 12:51 PM
I know this sounds a little crazy BUT I wouldn't mind the Reds acquiring Lance Niekro. I know I know I know... He hasn't exactly RAKED the last two seasons. I'm not sure THAT player is out there at a reasonable price. Lance is 27 and still relatively cheap. I do believe that he can improve and be productive in GABP as a platoon player. A change of scenery, new hitting coach and less pressure may help him. The death of his father may really push him too. I'd rather acquire him on the cheap than overpay for some of the FA names out there.

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2003 SF 5 5 2 1 1 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 .200 .200 .400 .600
2005 SF 113 278 32 70 16 3 12 46 17 53 0 2 .252 .295 .460 .755
2006 SF 66 199 27 49 9 2 5 31 11 32 0 0 .246 .286 .387 .673

Sure why not. Better than nothing. I am always for the underdog.

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 12:57 PM
I would guess it would be pretty hard to trade 13 players. Even if you could it would be hard to get value out of all them. If you did get value out of them it would net you very good prospects most likely, not very good players. Not all good prospects turn into good players.

I'm honestly not looking to get much for any of the players I labeled as "the others."

The only ones I'm looking to score big on are: Arroyo, Harang, and Dunn. If Ross has a real good 1st half, I'd hope to do well in that trade as well.

For one of the above I'd be looking at a package like 3 of Elijah Dukes, Reid Brignac, Jeff Niemann, Juan Salas, or Jacob McGee from the Rays (just as an example).

CySeymour
12-20-2006, 01:00 PM
I know this sounds a little crazy BUT I wouldn't mind the Reds acquiring Lance Niekro. I know I know I know... He hasn't exactly RAKED the last two seasons. I'm not sure THAT player is out there at a reasonable price. Lance is 27 and still relatively cheap. I do believe that he can improve and be productive in GABP as a platoon player. A change of scenery, new hitting coach and less pressure may help him. The death of his father may really push him too. I'd rather acquire him on the cheap than overpay for some of the FA names out there.

Good call, TC. As a platoon partner with Hatte, he could be just what the doctor ordered. Here is what he's done against lefties in his career:

BA OBP SLG OPS
.296 .330 .574 .904

fearofpopvol1
12-20-2006, 01:24 PM
I think ultimately, with the crazy money being thrown around is what the Reds should do. I would wait to deal until the trade deadline mid season. I'm sure we're not going anywhere, but why not test it out? Teams will be willing to give up more when they are in a race at the deadline too.

I also agree that no players are untouchable for the right deal. I do think Dunn is someone that should for sure be traded if it's clear we're not going anywhere only because his value will be high come the trade deadline and I do believe you will be able to get some stud prospects for him who are further along than A ball.

I do think you still try to lock up Harrang now too. I think if we get the right prospects for the established talent we have now who are at the right level, we'll be in good shape in 2-3 years. Which seems like an eternity from now, but we have previous owners and GMs to thank for that. If we keep trying to run out a mediocre team and buying mediocre talent, we're never going to get better. We're only digging deeper holes as we could be trading away some folks and making our team MUCH better for the future. Trust me, I want more than anything to see the Reds return to glory, but they're going to have to get worse again before they get better in today's market.

Team Clark
12-20-2006, 01:45 PM
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2003 SF 5 5 2 1 1 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 .200 .200 .400 .600
2005 SF 113 278 32 70 16 3 12 46 17 53 0 2 .252 .295 .460 .755
2006 SF 66 199 27 49 9 2 5 31 11 32 0 0 .246 .286 .387 .673

Sure why not. Better than nothing. I am always for the underdog.

Me too and if it works, which it may, he's still relatively young at 27.


Good call, TC. As a platoon partner with Hatte, he could be just what the doctor ordered. Here is what he's done against lefties in his career:

BA OBP SLG OPS
.296 .330 .574 .904

Agreed. I would also think he may be expendable with the Giants but who really knows?? I'm not sure what it would take to land him. Maybe Shack and an A Baller?

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 01:46 PM
Agreed. I would also think he may be expendable with the Giants but who really knows?? I'm not sure what it would take to land him. Maybe Shack and an A Baller?

With the Klesko and Aurilia signings, I wouldn't imagine it wouldn't be much. You're probbably pretty close with the above offer.

bucksfan2
12-20-2006, 01:51 PM
If I were the reds I would start rebuilding around the all star break if I am any mroe than 3 games back.
Start with

Arroyo
Hatte
Stanton
Weathers
Harang (only if you havnt been able to lock him up long term)
Griffey (only if he isnt on the verge of hitting 600)
Castro
Basically anyone not named Dunn who plays for more than a few mill a year.

Team Clark
12-20-2006, 02:00 PM
With the Klesko and Aurilia signings, I wouldn't imagine it wouldn't be much. You're probbably pretty close with the above offer.

That's what I was thinking. Although I'm pretty sure Rich is going to play 3B more than 1B for the Giants. Klesko didn't sign to sit. There are waves calling his name if that were the case. How many slow guys can you have on the bench? :laugh: Niekro has SOME upside and could potentially be a nice fit. I'd give them Shack because he's not going to pitch unless the Reds deal Cormier or Stanton gets hurt. (Or Vie Versa). Both organizations would be doing each player a favor and helping their own organizations, IMO. What the Heck do I know?

Red Leader
12-20-2006, 02:03 PM
Mark Sweeney is pretty screwed as well in SFO, but he's a lot older, and left handed, so that doesn't help the Reds much, I just wanted to throw that out there for whatever reason. umm, I really don't know why. Just thought I'd say it. :laugh:

fewfirstchoice
12-20-2006, 02:17 PM
Well heres what I think on who you would deal,I know some here are not going to agree but whats new around here.

#1 Dunn- He is a young stud who isnt going to want to play for a rebuilding team.Next season he will be 28 and in his prime he isnt wanting to start over.Isnt next season his last under the contract he signed or no he has one more correct.But any way he goes after his contract is up,cincy will be rebuilding and he isnt going to stick around.I say deal him if he is having a good year and sell why he is high.

#2 Arroyo - He is a guy thats just counting the days till he gets back to Boston has we speak.He has no desire to be in Cincy,so I say trade him.

#3- This would be any of the bull pen guys besides Bray,I say trade them all.

Strikes Out Looking
12-20-2006, 02:26 PM
I didn't read the question well--so I'm editing my post.

This may be the most defeatest thread I've ever read. First, the Reds as of today are tied for first in the NL Central with 5 other teams. We don't know what is going to happen tommorow, let alone in April. I mean Pujols could fail a drug test, Soriano could break a leg trying to play OF in Wrigley, Oswald could hurt his arm. And Jr. could be healthy all summer, Dunn could hit 30 taters by the all star break, and Harang could be 12-3 at the break. With that said, I think the Reds are within 4 games of 1st place or the WC at the end of July.

If they are not I wouldn't rebuild unless the season is completely lost, and the first thing I would do is change the manager, not just try to dump players. And if I am trading someone, I'd do it based on their season. If the Reds are out of contention, but Milton is doing ok, I'd trade him because his contract is up. Additionally, I'd look to move veteran relievers for prospects.

And no matter how much money the Cubs spend this offseason, they will still not win the world series--probably won't even get to the post-season and in my biased opinion, are not better than the Reds.

Team Clark
12-20-2006, 02:44 PM
Mark Sweeney is pretty screwed as well in SFO, but he's a lot older, and left handed, so that doesn't help the Reds much, I just wanted to throw that out there for whatever reason. umm, I really don't know why. Just thought I'd say it. :laugh:

I've always liked Sweeney. He's serviceable. He is getting older though.

Natty Redlocks
12-20-2006, 03:27 PM
I didn't read the question well--so I'm editing my post.

This may be the most defeatest thread I've ever read. First, the Reds as of today are tied for first in the NL Central with 5 other teams. We don't know what is going to happen tommorow, let alone in April. I mean Pujols could fail a drug test, Soriano could break a leg trying to play OF in Wrigley, Oswald could hurt his arm. And Jr. could be healthy all summer, Dunn could hit 30 taters by the all star break, and Harang could be 12-3 at the break. With that said, I think the Reds are within 4 games of 1st place or the WC at the end of July.

If they are not I wouldn't rebuild unless the season is completely lost, and the first thing I would do is change the manager, not just try to dump players. And if I am trading someone, I'd do it based on their season. If the Reds are out of contention, but Milton is doing ok, I'd trade him because his contract is up. Additionally, I'd look to move veteran relievers for prospects.

And no matter how much money the Cubs spend this offseason, they will still not win the world series--probably won't even get to the post-season and in my biased opinion, are not better than the Reds.

You had me til that part. I'd trade Junior straight up for Jacque Jones if I could.

And if the Reds are better than the Cubs, it will be because of Harang and Arroyo. I'd have to be absolutely blown away to deal either of them at this point.

Strikes Out Looking
12-20-2006, 05:10 PM
I'm allowed to dream aren't I? Of course I'd trade Jr. for Jones, or anyone else at this point. Not because I don't like him, but because I'd like some consistency in being in the lineup from CF, no matter who it is.

REDblooded
12-20-2006, 05:33 PM
For one of the above I'd be looking at a package like 3 of Elijah Dukes, Reid Brignac, Jeff Niemann, Juan Salas, or Jacob McGee from the Rays (just as an example).

Wow.....i was actually gonna mention Elijah Dukes on this thread, but you beat me to it. Didn't expect that. I'd love to see the Reds take a shot at him for the right price.

Will M
12-21-2006, 03:41 PM
Who in the NL central is so much better than the Reds that we will be out of it come the 7/31/07 trade deadline?

The Cubs have more holes than swiss cheese despite a big spending offseason.

The Cards and Astros are on the decline.

Honestly the Brew Crew has potential ( if Sheets can stay healthy )